Spicy Dune: Part 2 Spoiler Takes

[@nassattack]

Thank you so much Jessie for featuring my video. I'm truly blown away by the positive response to it. I'm just a little guy that plays video games and belches. So glad that my video landed for so many people. Love youuuuuuuuuu 💖💖💖

[@TocYounger]

I came across your video separately from this but I want to say thank you. I'm an atheist apostate who grew up Muslim here in Canada (GTA), and you managed to articulate a lot of the feelings that I needed to process after watching the movie. I was very angry when I walked out, but you managed to articulate the source of that anger in a very effective way. Thank you for your take!

[@Sam..123]

I found your channel from this recommendation and I'm so happy I did! ❤

[@MiadasSchaf]

Something that I found meaningful which was slightly miscommunicated in this discussion is that Chani's name is actually her fighter name which is interesting in the way that fighter names are chosen name by the person as we saw with Paul naming himself Muad'dib. In the movie slightly after his naming and after Chani tell him about her "true" name, the name she didn't choose and she tells him that her name means Water of desert spring and that it directly comes from the prophecy. When Jessica forces her to feed him her tear mixed with the Water of Life, beyond loosing simply her agency she also gets her own identity stolen from her, as her "real" name has always been one she disliked. She is made to be part of the prophecy in a way that violates her entire being on multiple front. As a trans person, I've had a very deep reaction to this specifically, specifically due to the way Chani talked about her names. I thought it was worth sharing!

[@hubris7434]

Loved how Jessica, Gurney and Stilgar (the adults) all become self-interested influences on Paul. They're all pushing him towards their own ends and only Chani cares about Paul, himself. It's so tragic that he betrays her out in the end and takes her people with him.

[@juncohill]

Thank you! So often people forget that Paul is still just a kid and needs guidance, but he's being manipulated by the power-hungry adults around him.

[@Kwisatz-Chaderach]

​@@juncohillPaul can literally see every future that is possible for him to create. He chooses the only path that is available.

[@mhawang8204]

@@Kwisatz-Chaderach A path FOR HIM, to achieve his goal as an Atreides, at the cost of countless lives. This a cautionary tale for false prophet/idol. We know Paul is not the true Messiah. He’s put in this position by design. Why do you believe his visions as he believes them himself?

[@Kwisatz-Chaderach]

@mhawang8204 a path to save the human race, but he was too attached to his humanity to go through with it, so he walks into the desert and allows his son to take up the Golden path.

[@Kwisatz-Chaderach]

@mhawang8204 he actually can see the future too. It's pretty essential to the whole series.

[@scottbutler5]

The central conflict in Dune is Paul trying to avoid the fate he's foreseen, and failing at every turn. This was the first adaptation that actually tried to depict that.

[@mushjul]

Interesting discussion. Just a little correction though... The death of Paul and Chani's son Leto II in the book is not what prompts Paul to go full Heel. That happens well after the Emperor has shown up on the scene. Earlier in the book, after he rides the worm and is reunited with Gurney pressures in the Tribe and amongst the other Fremen Tribes are forcing Paul to call out Stilgar to fight for the right to lead them. In addition, his visions are petering out and taking the Water of Life is the only way to regain the visions. After he takes the Water, his visions force his hand as he can now see the larger forces in the galaxy aligning against them and why.

[@mellowthm566]

👍🏾 yeah I understand why the Gurney attempting to kill Jessica was cut because jessica as spy suspect was cut but this more villainous take on Jessica would have made the scene sing. Both movies would have benefitted from +3 hr runs but cut is good since it feels like the best under 3hr version we can get or close to it.

[@MichaelSmith-rr7mo]

In the film I interpreted Feyd's attack on seitch tabr as the motivating force for Paul to embrace the heel turn

[@mellowthm566]

@@MichaelSmith-rr7mo most definitely that . He didn't "foresee it". Plus based on some dialogue some people theorize that movie Paul couldn't see Feuyd who might take Fenring's role of a failed Kwizatz Haderach. But the really interesting bit is in the book Sietch Tabhir was attacked but it was empty. The Fremen left for the south already. Jessica was made reverend mother for this journey instead. But since they eliminated the time skip they never fled the sietch so it makes sense it was attacked and not the southern sietches. Lots of elements of the book part 2 and 3 are blended in the movie.

[@darthdarkrage]

Just now realizing that Paul Atriedes and Eren Yeager (Attack on Titan) have a similar path. I might late to that realization, but I'm there.

[@jessiegenderafterdark5287]

Ohh yeah that’s an interesting connection tbh

[@thekage100]

The Paths is even a Desert..as a Dune fan and Aot fan, let me tell ya - There are SO MANY parallels!! ❤

[@mhawang8204]

I came to this realization as I see fans defending Paul with “he had no choice. It was the only way” as they did for Eren. Oh boy… 🤦‍♀️

[@briantaulbee5744]

I think the idea of Paul “giving in” to his darker urges, and his turn not really being based on something that happens to him, has some support given who he is. Not just a Harkonnen, but an Atreides. The Atreides line goes back at least as far as the Trojan War, to Agamemnon, and Agamemnon was a GIGANTIC piece of shit. Cruel, callous, bloodthirsty, and murderous (even of his own daughter). Maybe the worst character in The Iliad, and the very archetype of the despot, as much as the Baron. From that, and the little we glean of Leto’s father in the first novel, it appears that Leto himself may have been the exception among the Atreides: a truly noble person, whose bravery and loyalty inspire bravery and loyalty in others. But Paul doesn’t follow suit.

[@catherineescobar3123]

Weirdly, the one thing that really bothered me was the compressed time created by Alia staying an unborn fetus. Paul and Jessica sneakily working on the Fremen for years to establish him as a manufactured messiah makes more sense than it happening in six months. I just had to like, ignore the timeline because I otherwise thought this was a profoundly impressive adaptation.

[@gogopartytime]

The work around for that might have been the fact that the Bene Gesserit had been spreading the legend of the messiah beforehand for years, and having a more zealous base of believers in the Southern portion helps that notion of a legend spreading like wildfire. Totally agree though. I was expecting to see Alia born already.

[@mellowthm566]

I find it a little funny such a hard swerve was done so well to avoid uncanny toddler Alia totting around shanking and sassing 😂. Either cgi or a child actor would be a Herculean task.

[@richlisola1]

That is the strongest criticism of this film. I agree.

[@KornyeEast]

I understand why it's a problem but I also get why they changed it. The tone of Denis-'movies are a lot more serious and Alia and Jessica I this movie are a lot more sinister. So having a magic 2 year old wouldn't play that well

[@mellowthm566]

@@KornyeEast Yeah I don't think the movie would be praised for a uncanny staby toddler. Increasing the time gap would slow the pacing and just make a big child actor issue. I hope they just age up the kids in children of dune. The preborn are hard to adapt.

[@seth_sesu]

Great takes! Chani character changes make the story much better.

[@joshuarebennack68]

I read Dune every year in the spring. So, I'm a huge Dune stan. I have been happy with the Villeneuve movies that, for all my wishing of this part of the book or that part of the book on screen, are way more digestible for non-Dune fans and yet tell the same basic story. Its Reader's Digest Dune, in other words. Here is my general take: the timeline changes and compression worked way better than I thought they would. Showing Paul's first battle against the spice crawler with Chani, part of a campaign only vaguely hinted at in the books, was brilliant. Besides the fun action stuff, it was good world building and showed a growing sense of connection without a lot exposition. His naming because of this actually more sense than in the book where his killing of Jamis leads to his naming. The attack on the northern sietches (shown in great detail with Tabr) versus the attempted Sardaukar assignation of Paul and Gurney's attempt at Jessica's life being impetus for the drinking of the Water of Life also made more sense in the film narrative. (Just to clarity, in the book, Paul drinks the Water of Life in the abandoned Sietch Tabr, not in the south, and then, on the eve of the final battle with Emperor, the Sardaukar attack the southern sietches, killing Leto II and capturing Alia. Villeneuve changed the attack and moved it way forward.) I do have two minor issues: Due to casting, this version of Dune still has the stink of "white savior" that people try to paint it with (falsely). This story takes place 20,000 years from now. Whatever racial or ethnic groups you think exist now, they will be forgotten by then. I'm sure 20,000 years ago the people of Three Trees thought the people of Bear Caves were somehow different than them. 20,000 years from now, no will know what "Arab" or "White" are because so much time will have passed. It drives me batty when the casting reinforces our current stereotypes, especially in this situation, because there has been enough discussion about previous versions of Dune and claims of "white savior" that Villeneuve should have been aware of it. I didn't like how blatant they made Jessica's proselytizing of the Lisan al-Gaib prophecy. Its there in the original book, but boy is it subtle and its mostly about protecting Paul. Its not till after Paul takes the Water of Life that Jessica is onboard with the prophesy and even then, is fearful of the direction that Paul's visions are taking him, i.e. the coming Jihad. Villeneuve was far more subtle with Chani's disillusionment (something that doesn't actually occur until Dune Messiah, so he is moving that forward). Wish he would have been more subtle with Jessica's role in unleashing the whirlwind.

[@YawnGod]

When does Chani's disillusionment happen in Dune Messiah? You talking about the contraceptive subplot?

[@richlisola1]

The white savior nonsense, needs to stop. Paul is no one’s savior. Muad’ib is a fraud. And the ridiculous woke race madness of now, won’t exist in 20,000 years. That people think it will is saddening. Or perhaps just an expression of ignorance of the lore.

[@camipco]

" Whatever racial or ethnic groups you think exist now, they will be forgotten by then." I think you are missing the point here. First, the thing that makes Paul a 'white savior' to the Fremen is not skin color, it's the power relationship between House Atreides as the colonizers whose primary concern is extracting resources and the Fremen as the indigenous inhabitants of the planet. He has the power-position that European white people had in the Colonial age, and the Fremen have the position that darker people from the Global South had during that time period. But also, like, Paul isn't real. Dune wasn't written in 20,000 years time, it was written in 1965. and Herbert very much was writing a story about white savior tropes. To what extent he is effectively critical of them is a matter of debate, but to claim that Dune is not about that because in 20,000 years time race will have different meanings is missing how books, especially science fiction, work.

[@joshuarebennack68]

@@camipco Yes, but also no. Its a bit more complicated than that. The "white savior" trope is heavily based on its representation in various media forms, maybe even more then its based on European colonial history. We can all list the forms it comes in: books, movies, TV shows, etc. In our (somewhat) modern lens, we view it about domination or corruption of a supposedly less "powerful" people. (Which, in itself is a form of racism, but we can discuss John McWhorter's essay's on that subject another day.) But back to Dune. Quinn, a sci-fi KZbinr did a better take down of the supposed "white savior" trope of Dune than I ever could. But, his basic argument is that Dune is more about political and religious stratified structures than what we define as race. The structures remain (stubbornly) the same. 5,000 years ago, the people of 3 Trees thought the people of Bear Caves were beneath them. But the structures that made that belief possible: priesthoods, hierarchical governments, etc. where to blame, not some race. And 5,000 years later the descendants of 3 Trees and Bear Caves view them themselves as a single people, who view some other "those people" to be lesser than they are. Why? because we are still beholden to the same structures. The Harkonnen, the Atreides, are fictional, yes, but they themselves are beholden to the same. The story of Dune, with few alterations, could be used for just about any time period. It could have been written about an escaped Roman proctor's son who leads the Germanic tribes against the Roman Empire. Or it could be about far future universe-wide empire. That is problem with calling Dune a White Savior story. You limit its "lessons" down to a narrow time of history and narrow concept of race. (Which, side note here, is byproduct of that history.) Races of man don't exist. They never have. And short of some crazy genetic branching, they never will. But our progeny could be part of some neo-Marxist empire or AI religion that does the same thing the British Empire did or the Moors did or the fictional Harkonnen did. And Dune, as a book, will always be a way to comment about that while imagining a world with ornithopters and skyscraper sized worms.

[@loglorn]

For me, the moment Paul decides to become the symbol, the Messiah, is not when they decide to go to the south, but when he steers thr Shai Huluud to the temple in order to drink the worm Kool-Aid, and its pretty interesting how thats the first scene that is like Very Explicitly from Chani's perspective

[@AllTheArtsy]

i saw Dune Part 2 on IMAX this weekend as well and after the experience that was Oppenheimer I didn't think it would be topped so soon but Dune Part 2 legitimately changed my life and reminded me why I love cinema. What an achievement from Denis and the rest of the cast and crew. Timothee really elevated Paul and made his rise to power and descend into the figurehead of a jihad that would kill 61 billion people throughout the Imperium very believable. I would have really liked a baby Alia, but I understand all the cuts and changes that had to be made. I adore the change to make Chani more active and more complex in her relationship to Paul the man and Muad'Dib the prophet. I'm gonna go see it again on IMAX this weekend, I cannot wait!

[@AllTheArtsy]

Denis does show that Pauul makes the choice after the destruction of Sietch Tabr. Feyd has come in and will annihilate all the Fremen and he is using harsher tactics than even The Beast did. That's why Paul finally goes South and takes the Water of Life

[@capo3645]

They know why he went south, what they're saying is that this setup makes it seem as though Paul's hand is forced and there is no real "choice" in his actions. Either he's goes south or he dies to slow down Feyd, who will genocide the Fremen anyway.

[@EdWiley671]

I think there were several points where Paul chose to take the path of ascension, motivated either by revenge or the fear of losing Chani (re: his vision where she’s burned up by radiation). We see this shown visually when they ride their Sandworms to the south and Paul LITERALLY changes course to visit the sandtrout temple and take the water of life. I think Paul definitely has agency, but in a Greek tragedy kind of way, it always comes to bite him in the ass.

[@Kwisatz-Chaderach]

Weird how no one picks up of the fact that Paul has a Greek surname alluding to his fate as a "Tragic Hero"

[@nancyjay790]

I remember watching the various Sci Fi mini series on Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children Of Dune (the last having an adorable James McAvoy as Leto II). Like David Lynch's cinematic adaptation, I felt those series fell into the same blind spot of the Atreides as the heroes. Denis Villeneuve is the first creator to get that Paul stepping into this role was not good. The myth of the Chosen One in Dune is a prophecy that the Bene Gesserit fashioned so they could plonk whoever they chose as their savior. It's beyond many stories of a charismatic protagonist.

[@mushjul]

The whole issue about Spice being essential to space travel is the part that every attempted adaptation of this story gets wrong. It is clear in the book that no one knows that the Spice is what the Navigators are using to guide them when Folding Space. The Guild has kept this secret for centuries and created a misdirect using the fact that Spice also contains life prolonging properties. If the Emperor knew what Spice was needed for, House Corino would have taken Arrakis by force to control Space Travel. Essentially what Paul does at the end of Dune.

[@mellowthm566]

I think a lot of that is Paul's visions were more symbolic than the book because he was the one who realized it in Book 1 in the tent in a waking vision but they cut that down. Paul even thinks of becoming a Navigator for half a sec. The scene would probably have been too bogged down though.

[@jamesmunn576]

This is not true at all. In the slightest. Everyone in the universe knew exactly what spice was used for, and knew exactly why the navigators used it. Atleast, the majority of the powerhouse players within the political spectrum. Paul, would absolutely know. Now, only the Fremen knew how the spice is connected with the Worm and desserts of Arrakis... but the Spacing Guild controls Space Travel through their Navigatiors... the Navigators are the main player within the spacing guild. They understood that being impermanent is permanence... meaning all empires fall. So they stayed they hand directly out of spice production... along with CHAOM and the Landstraad would never allow House Corrio to control the spice fields.... hence Paul's Jihad!!! The Spacing Guild was removed from these films... spice is essentially removed from these films as the true catalyst for the universe and story. As an adaptation, is worse than 84 and the weirding models....

[@mellowthm566]

@@jamesmunn576 @jamesmunn576 Yeah very true.You're right everyone knew and there were rumors of mutation of the navigators. I skipped a thought in my comment lol. I'm referring to Paul realizing the Guild trades for spice with the Fremen to keep satellites away from Dune and thus the Fremen control Dune and the Guild is too afraid to directly control it and endanger themselves. Also the navigators knew about the Water of Death as well but the first book doesn't go into the limits of their prescience as much. Point being not everyone knew that the Guild's monopoly was vulnerable. I feel that as good as I found this some things were streamlined that did not need to be. Like a lot of dialogue. If the tent scene was in full they wouldn't need to have the whole nuke scene, add the water of death and the navigators to really sink in the scale of Paul's threat. There's also no mention of the machine jihad so that's gonna be an issue with all the factions in messiah (the stigma against ix tech for example). And mentats -sigh-. Its frustrating cuz 10-15 minutes of dialogue could have framed all of the world building for the trilogy. I still think it's better than 84 in a lot of ways. Just pulled short of it's potential. Kinda more essence of Dune than a translation of the text or a cinematic world. The LOTR extended treatment is a nice dream tho

[@mushjul]

@@jamesmunn576 No, in the book the majority of the empire and that includes the Great Houses did not know that it was the Spice that the Navigators required for their job. Yes, perhaps they knew of mutation but Paul only knows of the Prescient qualities after he is exposed to it on Dune and his special abilities are what help him make that discovery. The proof of it is when near the end Paul asks Gurney if the Guild is buying up Spice and he says they are buying it up like it is the most precious thing ever. The general believe, fostered by the Guild, is that Spice is valued for its life enhancing properties. Gurney does not know why the Guild would need to buy up all the Spice. The Movies have created this believe that everyone knew it was used for Navigating but it is the biggest secret in the book. It is why Paul can take the Golden Lion Throne because he now controls the Spice and the Guild has to give in and support him. If any other house had known the secret they would have seized control of Arrakis, particularly House Corrino and then the empire would have control of the Guild. Paul realized how the Guild used it and also threatened to destroy the ecosystem which created Spice.

[@lloroshastar6347]

One of my biggest issues with the David Lynch version is the very last moment of the film when Alia says 'for he is the Kwisatz Haderach' and then it starts raining on Arrakis. For a start everyone whose read future books knows this would kill all the worms, thereby ending Spice forever. But more importantly it's essentially saying 'yes, there really is a Holy Messiah in this Universe, and Paul IS that Messiah'... the strange thing is apparently Herbert approved of the film, but I ask myself how he could with that end scene.

[@matiasdevaglia4541]

I remember reading somewhere that Herbert had only watched an incomplete cut of the film when he gave his approval.

[@jn4126]

Nice to see a review from people who actually know Dune, the book is criminally under read it seems

[@gogopartytime]

Great talk! I find the concept of the Bene Gesserit to be fascinating, and I see a lot of parallels between them and the Nightsisters of Dathomir in Star Wars. I'm curious what they have planned for the rumored Bene Gesserit series, because it would be great to see how they undergo the mental and physical training needed to carry out this long-term plan of human evolution.

[@sairvinginthestacks]

I would say the bene gesserit and tbe Aed Sedai from wheel of time have more in common.

[@gogopartytime]

@@sairvinginthestacks True! Very good point.

[@petermann673]

53:00 At that point of the film I realized, "Wait, I've seen this kind of thing before." And realized "Oh, Attack on Titan totally did the same thing." Paul (and Eren) both see that they have this destiny of mass murder and genocide. And they could choose another path. But they ultimately decide "Fuck it, taking the railroad."

[@AllTheArtsy]

except no, Paul has complete and total clarity of all possible futures and pasts and he has the mental capability to actually process that/ however atrocious the jihad may be, it is actually the better path compared to the total destrcution of mankind that he and his son God Emperor Leto II have both foreseen. meanwhile, Eren Jaeger is just an idiot who lucked into the Founding and Attack Titan to find a loophole to send memories. Eren himself says that if Armin had gotten the power, he might have been able to think of a better way, but he's just a garden-variety idiot whose best idea is genocide

[@SuperHipsterGamer]

No, the earliest point in which Paul could see human extinction is after he drank the water of life. At that point the Jihad was already inevitable. At no point has either Leto or Paul seen into the future where the Jihad wasn't already set in stone. It's all in the text. The Golden path is not there to justify the jihad.@@AllTheArtsy

[@spacecadet-zero]

@@AllTheArtsyIn the book, the last point he could have avoided it was that before he fought Jamis. I believe in the book he mentions this and that right after the fight, the only way he could stop it would’ve been to kill everyone there, his mother (who would spread the gospel even in his death) and himself. Arguably given the stakes perhaps that counts as him being able to and choosing not to. Once he arrives at Sietch Tabr it’s inevitable.

[@70briareos]

I actually liked the change they did with Chani. Paul does not need her to be his "cheerleader" (he already got Stilgar for that, LOL). If Villeneuve is going to continue their love story into Dune Messiah, their relationship will have to be that of equals. Paul will need Chani to see him not as the Mahdi, or the Lisan al Gaib, or the Emperor of the Known Universe, but as that lost boy she found in the desert one day. Because that's the Paul she fell in love with.

[@bananbom]

Read the book(s) years ago so had forgot quite a few details, but what struck me while watching Part 2 is how perfectly this story would have worked as a template for the Start Wars prequels. Just tweak it a bit and you Paul is basically Darth Vader

[@JiixBooks]

you keep us fed and i love that for sm

[@Jangel0302]

44:53 Absolutely! It seems the Chani being forced to revive Paul makes her so incongruous to the Chani at the end. We would believe her heartbreak more if she willingly took part in the "prophecy".

[@pattiwicksteed3731]

About the Baron: he was infected with an incurable virus/disease when the Bene Gesserit forced him to have sex with a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother (because t hey wanted his bloodline). The Baron is only interested in young boys so the encounter is quite horrible. He had been very proud of his fitness and physique, both of which were taken from him by the infection... So not really a comment on obesity. It's an example where knowing the backstory is really important....

[@ozymandiascakehole3586]

great discussion thanks alot!

[@ruth1338]

Thank you so much for your work, Jessie! I have little to no people around me to discuss all the nerdy thoughts. I’m also always a little concerned about liking stuff that often is so seemingly escapist and can feel averse to my politics in some ways. So, you mixing up pure nerdy excitement and poignant critical contextualization just makes me so happy :))) I’ve been wanting to write that for a while but I usually don’t write comments. Had to let it out now! I also have a question about Dune and Paul being or not depicted as accountable for his actions eventually. I’ve been reflecting about how the concepts of prescience and foresight play into that whole question. It feels like an externalization of accountability on the base of “facts” (all the possible facts, haha). It reminds me of how I sometimes get a bad gut feeling when people try to explain grand scale world politics with extensive knowledge but no regards to individual struggles and life experiences on the ground. What’s the role/metaphor of prescience in the story? This is not really a finished thought, rather a little ongoing inquiry in my head. Thanks again for your work!

[@aaronlutes2126]

Wolf 359 was crazy good! Now I'm actually excited for a talky podcast lol

[@lordofthebuckets2676]

I assume everyone wants the Spice because they’re sick of their food tasting so bland.

[@maldaror7097]

Immediately going to check out Miranda, thank you, Loved Dune , always loved Dune, love this version, just a little worried that the changes made will impact the story going forward, if these where stand alone then the changes make sense, but if they are really going to go with a third film then they have sort of muddied the waters for the story going beyond this.

[@nassattack]

hope you enjoy the video!

[@maldaror7097]

I am, I am not too old too learn, this perspective should be heard.

[@raysimpson6075]

Paul didn't want to go south. He asked Jamie what he should do. He had a vision. Then he went south

[@pinkyhc4130]

I met my best friend in 2006 because we were at a party with our pretentious jerk boyfriends and they got into a horrible circle jerk conversation about Dune and we started making fun of them. Not relavent but a funny Dune related story nonetheless.

[@meander112]

Melange for the melange god!

[@Maya_Ruinz]

14:32 It’s not that Jessica has become some malevolent figure, when she drank the water of life all the ancestral memories altered her, she is fully aware of the path that the Bene Gesserit put into motion. The path to create the Kwisatz Haderach is close and she fully sees the path and how close they are to fulfilling it.

[@robstewartstewart98]

Can’t wait to see Dune 2! what are all of your guesses for what this means for the plot of Dune Messiah? Paul reconnects with Chani during the story? Wild wondering: do we end up in a scenario where the idea is that the movie’s continuity will not have a Children of Dune or God Emperor of Dune? The arc of Dune Messiah is Paul ultimately walking away from power to BE WITH CHANI? There’s a wild ending….Paul engineers an ending where he effectively decides to see the empire broken up. The Freeman are fully in charge of Arrakus and the Spice Guild.

[@AaronHatcher]

I thought this movie was an incredible achievement. It does change some things but the changes aren't exactly massive changes but they are changes that highlight the overall point of the movie.

[@Owlbearwolf2]

I don’t know if there’s been any discourse on this. But if you’ve read the books, I think this is the other Dune timeline. The one hinted at in the beginning of the first book. “Hello, Grandfather.” I think Paul is trying to successfully stop the jihad by making Chani hate him enough to lead a rebellion to kill him. We’ve already seen left-wing elements in the film that weren’t in the book. Namely, the skeptical northern Fremen.

[@petervizzini8239]

The northern fremen were decimated

[@anvalisok]

Saw the movie late, so watched this late too. Thanks for the discussion.

[@thumper8684]

First quibble. Whatever Sting was wearing, those could not be underpants unless he had exceptionally voluminous over-garments.

[@desertkhaat]

Great conversation! I took the green paradise to mean leading them to "honourable death" in the religious sense. Not so much conquest....? Which Chani absolutely-& rightfully- rejects I think Chani can love Paul, but stay away, be this mirror to the dissolution of Paul's ethical (?) soul. I'm surprised y'all didn't get into the role of these substances (Spice & Water of Life) & how these are pivotal in changes in Paul, Lady Jessica, & the tragic Aliyah. After his second encounter with Spice in the tent when Jessica & Paul have fled (Dune, Part 1), there is that first shift in Paul, this coolness that frightens Jessica. In both the book & Villeneuve's adaptation, there's a hard shift in both Jessica & Paul after partaking of the Water of Life: both of them become crazed by it, driven by what they they've perceived to be this "Absolute Truth". They've been poisoned beyond repair.For me, Aaliyah is tragic because she had no choice, she is damaged thru her mother's ambitions. She is not well.....The Kavernacle did an interesting video on the conservative misunderstanding of Dune, Part 2, where he points out that for Villeneuve , Spice is a kind of stand in for oil, which makes sense. Relationship between Spice (mélange), the Worms, water, & the Water of Life with the Ecology of Arrakis for me was critical: how does the Water of Life come about? What are the choices for Arrakis- & who gets to determine which ones get implemented? How will Spice be managed....? The Water of Life (as I see it) isn't as much the voice of the Bene Gesserit as much as the medium/substance through which they pickled their brains 2 force these perceptions into reality...the Bene Gesserit are pretty manipulative & vile, in the way corporations or the "movers & shakers of the world" are, but these substances have this ultimate power beyond the control of those who partake of them....I guess a better way to frame it is to say the lust after these substances- & the partaking of them outside of the context of indigenous use-poisons those for whom these substances are a quest for power...

[@MetFreak42]

Thing about all of this though, if they are going to do it right, its going to have to be a Quadrilogy, capping the story with Children of DUNE. Btw, I've nicknamed Rabban "Captain Runaway". Was soooooo stoked when Gurney killed him, while Captain Runaway was literally running away from battle. POS deserved it.

[@AllTheArtsy]

you might as well say then that you have to cap it with God Emperor to see the end of Leto II's story. Paul's story ends with Messiah, pretty much. In Children, he is 'The Preacher' and his role in the story is not remotely as important. Denis wants to tell Paul's story, so he's done after Messiah

[@thegabrielhyde]

I’m up for a decade long HBO show that caps off with Sandworms of Dune 🤷‍♀️

[@tomohawkingenius]

15:00 I agree that this interpretaton of Lady Jessika was very interesting! I wonder if her more conspiratorial and power-hungry actions can be seen through the lens of the revealed Harkonen bloodline in her?

[@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342]

Admit it Jessie. You were let down because Christopher Walken didn't have the hero fight the villain over a match of... "PING PONG! Or as they say in Chinese... PING PONG! The sport of emperors and bandits alike..."

[@Imperial_Squid]

31:30 Thufir Hawat was also fat and as an Atredies was implicitly on the good side (yes yes, no such thing as sides, I mean good in the way they're portrayed on screen)

[@mmccosker]

You both read Jessica wrong . She wanted to create the quaz hedarac or something , not the messiah . That was a convenience

[@Donovaneagle2098]

I would LOVE to get your opinion on the Witcher's anti chosen one narrative. The entire plot revolves around a queer woman being the prophesized mother of a messianic figure, and how people seek to control her and her bodily autonomy to control her prohpecy child's life. It also delves into these colonial aspects in the story of the Witchers themselves being outside of the sway of political groups, and how the various groups of Witchers view this freedom, from the Jedi like Griffin Witchers perpetuating the political cycle, to the anarchist Bear Witchers showing constant contempt to authority, even within their own group, but treating their status being outside the control of kingdoms as a way to live their own lives as opposed to doing much to change the systems they know to be flawed.

[@audiem.7353]

I am happy I have no interest in reading and/or watching Dune so I’ll be able to watch your video after work today! (Instead of waiting until I finally get to see the movie)

[@yomama5368]

I dunno, isn't the entire point of Dune that Paul _doesn't_ have a choice due to his prescience? He can see the future, can see which path is the best, and so all the horrid things he does can be rationalized as consequentially better than the alternatives. Paul's lack of agency is also reinforced by the fanaticism of his followers; though he sparks the flame, it quickly grows out of his control, and in the end he's effectively riding at the head of a stampede he can't do anything to stop. To the degree Dune is a critique of great man theory it's due to a belief in philosophical and cultural determinism, not necessarily due to postcolonial criticisms of ethnic supremacy or patriarchy. This isn't to say that the latter can't be brought in at all-I think it's certainly worth talking about-but without weaving it into conversation with the former point I find the analysis incomplete, because that former point is really at the heart of the story.

[@catherineescobar3123]

I mean, define “best”. Paul picks the path best for him and his goals.

[@TheSuperRatt]

He does actually have agency, he just doesn't believe he does. He believes he has no choice, but in fact he had never truly lost his agency. To see the future is not to see it as it would have unfolded, but to make it. Peering into the future is an act that by its very nature, changes the future. You're not seeing what would have happened without that sight. You're seeing a revised future that takes into account your awareness of it. That's why the climax (spoiler alert) of the entire series is rendering prescience useless.

[@notfromhere8889]

The film doesn't do well to convey all the drama and controversy. It's not really supposed to be a feel good popcorn story😂

[@ShockArcl1te]

Important thing to note: If you're going to sacrifice people for a cause, even if it's a good cause, and even if they're willing, even if there's no deception, if you still insist on sacrificing others, you need to be the first one in line to that chopping block. If your cause was truly righteous, you'd have no problem with being the first to be sacrificed for it.

[@Stress-Free-K]

I feel Paul picks the only path possible if the Freman are to survive. Because eventually, the Harkonnen would exterminate them all. Then he chooses to spare the emperor and marry his daughter as a gambit for peace. But the great houses still will not allow the Freman to have control over their own planet. It's the empire's fault they are in this fix. Because the House of Atreides may have been able to find a way to co-exist with the Freman had they been given a chance.

[@beagle989]

I think the important thing for people who say it's a white savior narrative to realize is that that is a perfectly reasonable take and yes, it is annoying to hear everyone go "it's a commentary!" over and over again instead of just going "oh totally, of course it is" and waiting at least 15 seconds before bringing up the authorial intent as a clarification on your reasonable opinion

[@TK-wn3te]

It's also important to correct people who say it's a white savior narrative because they are wrong. The changes Villeneuve made (specifically to Chani and Jessica's characters) make that point much more clear than it was in the book.

[@anonymous36247]

Paul drinks the Water of Life, much like Odin drinking from The Well of wisdom or whatever it's called and like Odin Paul learns female Magic. Paul was intended to be a Girl by bene gesserit and I always took this as mythological storytelling but I think there's a little bit of transness in it and I'm wondering, while halfway through the video, if Jesse has a comment on that. I paid very close attention whenever the characters refer to Paul as a boy and I think there's an interesting queer reading that can be taken out of the story in all likelihood but I haven't done that analysis yet. It's just my intuition that there's really something there. What I got from this version of the film after arguing with Biden supporters for days about genocide is that we've got to witness the rise of one house against another and that in order to stop the fascism of the harkonnen, house Atreides adopted similar fascist tactics. I'm projecting that we're going to get to see some of the cruelty of Paul in the third movie but I nearly teared up several times knowing what's coming. As America fights its own flawed and failed Crusade, it becomes hard to look at the Democrats and not see House Atreides slowly realizing that it is tainted with both the blood and ideology of the harkonnen. By that I mean, the anti-trump Republicans who are still rather right-wing extremists have left the Republican party and joined the Democratic Party and are dragging us even farther to the right. In order to preserve democracy we have to fight a crusade and support the border wall is essentially what Biden's supporters have been telling me. We are in a lot of trouble and I'm not sure there is any other path forward at this point. How do I get off the Golden path?

[@borjankosarac3645]

The previous film itself had Jessica accused of using her abilities to ensure that Paul is born (effectively) assigned male at birth, because she believed she’d be the one to birth the Messiah. To which Ferguson’s version responded, “Am I wrong?” In the books she may have done so because she loved Leto and as a wife wanted to give him a male heir; either way, Paul being born as he is was under dubious means, because the idea that we could choose our own children’s gender identity - even putting aside the biological essentialism thing - is to me an odious, cruel approach to putting our own wishes upon them instead of letting them figure out their true selves… Which is to say, I consider it fitting to how Paul thinks he must drink of darkness to destroy his enemies but as his visions have shown, there was always a choice and he chose this path while blaming others for it.

[@ajasen]

It's everything I wanted from Star Wars as an adult and never got. Luke is not the hero, the Jedi order are not the heroes, they are creations of power politics, but they were necessary in the face of authoritarian power. I was very uncomfortable watching Paul have to choose to be Harkonen and "win".

[@kahleeb624]

Just an FYI the S in Denis is silent. Its a french name.

[@mzaite]

Oh yea, stuff other than Final Fantasy VII Rebirth happened this weekend.

[@pacio49]

Hey Jessie! I'm commenting without watching the video, but adding this to my 'watch later' list once I get the chance to see Dune 2 this weekend. The reason I'm swooping in and commenting on a video I'm not watching like some weird KZbin Algorithm Creeper? You used the word "Anti-hero" in your title thumbnail, and my heart went 'Padam. Padam.' Nobody, and I do mean 'nobody' on my algorithm feed has yet Named the Beast - that Dune is not the Hero's Journey. It is the Anti-Hero's Journey -- Paul Atreides undergoes the steps of the meta journey but at the moment of realization, the Hero returns with the Fire of Heaven, and uses it to burn Society completely to the ground. Which means that although Paul is our Protagonist, he is NOT a Hero. The Hero reinvigorates Society, or brings forth a Revelation. But all of the Prophecies are false. The products of Bene Gesseritt social programming so that when they finally gave birth to a real Magic Wizard, the Ersatz Kumquat or whatever, the Bene Gesseritt would finally rise to ascendancy over whatever new order emerged. Anyway, you're the first reactor to even mention Anti-Heroism with regard to Dune. And being late diagnosed (46) on the spectrum and liking familiar repetitive loops myself, I've watched most of the reactions for the movies and shows and books I like. Funny that. So yeah, way to hit THE KEY to Dune's literary classification. And yeah, I'll come back and watch your video absolutely as soon as I see Part 2. Thanks Jessie! Your efforts and insights are appreciated!

[@pacio49]

I confess I listened to the intro. Again, haven't seen Dune 2, but I'm intimately familiar with the story and actually used it in Lit Crit classes in College/Uni back in the 90's. Remember that Jessica's character and purpose transforms after her moment of transforming the Water of Life links her to the echoes of her past incarnations, links her to the Bene Gesseritt group empathy, and awakens my favorite character in the whole series, Saint Alia of the Knife. (Arya Stark of Winterfell, youngest 'sister' to the Savior sent by the Lord of Light -- hrm, didn't connect that until now. Dune's reach into pop culture tropes and tales continues unabated, even into the frozen North of Westeros!) She's not the same woman, her Initiation has connected her with the Organization Purpose and Perspective, and she has a lot of Atonement that she needs to make up for with Alia the Abomination, who awakened to her past incarnations while a fetus, and emerged from the womb as a self-aware fully trained Ancient Crone in the body of an infant. And, you said that Paul had no choice about his future. Not true. He chooses to remain on Dune when Jessica was trying to get him offworld, to return to "normal". But Paul embraces the Messiah's Path and puts his own feet on the true road 'into the Desert' from the monomyth perspective, only his motives are impure. Just as in every single Classical Tragedy there is a moment where a single Tragic Choice is made. A single decision where the Protagonist has the chance to redeem themselves, or else they commit themself to their ultimate destruction. In the moment when Paul could flee being Duke, could flee further entanglement in the Bene Gesseritt plans, when he could have the life he's been dreaming of, he doubles down, he willingly steps into the role of Duke, and he commits himself fully to the Desert, to continue the Karma and Dharma of his House and his line, using every weapon that he has, including the Bene Gesseritt. He doesn't want to be the savior. But he quickly perceives that the only path to personal peace ("I'm not in the mood to fight, Duncan") is to rise to the Imperial Throne and destroy the political enemies of his family, completely. And thus, he chooses the Messiah's path, but with the ulterior motive from the start of bringing the existing social order to its knees. Even though he doesn't fully realize the extent to which the path will lead, he knows at the start that "I am to misbehave". He chose his path. And that's the moment when he did so. That's the last moment he could have turned from the events that follow. ALL of them.

[@DeonTain]

That fact that Paul can see the future really muddies the waters for casting him as warning against charismatic leaders. Normally when someone does a horrible thing "for the greater good" they are guessing at the outcome. But if they can see the future then the whole world becomes a set of trolley problems. So for all of the awful stuff that Paul does or sets in motion, he can honestly know and say that it is the best of all possible futures.

[@KillerOfWhales]

I think part of the message is that even if the great leader is, technically from some wide lens utilitarian perspective, completely in the right, the very existence of a character like that causes immense suffering, and ultimately ends up playing into a deeply destructive system. It’s even worse in the ambiguous version that exists in real life, where their long view ideal isn’t even possible to come true

[@mellowthm566]

Yeah the textual theme of utilitarian necessity is uncomfy but also ironic since prescience becomes the biggest obstacle to collective survival. The power of leadership/prescience is a antagonist force rather than a straight up villain. By existing Paul creates the terrible future, the Bene Geserit ultimately doomed humanity by seeking him. Later books suggest technology/seeking power would do this as well.

[@AdrianQuark]

I think the fact that Paul is so great actually makes the book's point a lot stronger. It's saying: look even if the Messiah really is perfect, the results will still be horrific.

[@AllTheArtsy]

contra to you, i think they very fact that Paul can see all futures IS the reason why him (and his son Leto II) are the perfect mediums by whom to tell the anti-messiahnic figure story. even if Leto II is ultimately the greatest and most noble hero for humanity, his despotic rule still results in untold suffering and teaches humanity never again to trust on individuals to lead them

[@crashb800]

I say this only having watched the movie and heard some things about the books, but I find it potentially upsetting how the Harkonnens, especially Feyd-Ratha, have a lot of definite BDSM coding to them. I think it potentially carries on the legacy of Vladimir’s pederastic attraction and tendencies in the original story. Obviously, there are terrible people that are sadomasochists, but I still don’t feel amazing about it being only a signifier for evil. I also think that, when you really think about it, what that one Bene Gesserit does to Feyd is actually r*pe, plain and simple. This also makes me think that there’s been this pattern of r*pe with the nobility when it comes to the Bene Gesserit, and I think it would likely have a pretty large effect of the psyche of the nobility as a whole as well as various members of the Bene Gesserit which carry these acts out more out of duty rather than actual connection or desire. I think there are a lot of problems with this when you really think about it.

[@Deluluyo]

Saw that today. its was crazy epic buuuut... YEAH? RACIST MUCH ? idk, i guess "cultural appropriation" is a word that fits better. Seeing my culture (north-african indigenous Amazigh/Berber) ripped off to fill up villeneuve's space epic with 'authenticity' was... distracting. Still had a great time. The action & battles were so well written & directed.

[@eustatic3832]

The movie does so well at fixing the novels, while getting so EPIC. The politics of Dune are a bit Outdated. Would the Fremen buy the PGA Golf Tournament and spark a culture war by astroturfing support for Johnny Depp?

[@Jonmad17]

Dune is a fundamentally orientalist work, and I think the filmmakers attempted to skirt that discourse by not having exclusively Arab actors portray the Fremen. Dune 2 does have Arab cast members, but they're in minor roles. The conlang developed for the new movie removed much of the Arab influence in the language of the Fremen, and based on interviews with the man who developed the language, I think it was again to avoid accusations of orientalism.

[@borjankosarac3645]

One just can’t win the argument, can they? Although the Fremen culture and their situation is very inspired by Western exploitation of the Middle East and their resources, expecting a culture 20,000 years from now to be a one-to-one feels… a bit self-indulgent? Self-aggrandising? Limiting? I don’t know exactly… Granted, expecting the ruling families - the Atreides, the Harkonnen - to all be white is itself very unimaginative. Heck, the fact we use what we know of the world and our own limited ideas of what kind of cultures exist, is also a blind spot when we try to create wholesale new fantasy/sci-fi cultures, species, races… It’s something that we have to choose to engage with or not, when we write, and hopefully at worse the discourse is productive.

[@EmonWBKstudios]

God, I love The Last Jedi. It's sooo funny how it's easily the best Star Wars film by far and how the worst people refuse to see anything deeper than "Mah nostalgia" and whine about it even to this day. What? Dune? oh, yeah, love Dune, love the worm.

[@EmonWBKstudios]

Stilgar just doing the whole "Life of Brian" bit was amazing.

[@Jangel0302]

43:33 Have you ever watched Elem Klimov's, Come and See.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

Lady Jessica would not have been sickened by see the taking of water from the captives. She is steel strong, stronger than Paul. She would have observed the scene without reaction. This was an misguided attempt of the writer/director wanting to add empathy to a character.

[@lordhoot1]

She had morning sickness!

[@howtoaca7504]

💝💝💝💝

[@NextToToddliness]

I was disappointed by these Dune films. They made the universe feel too pedestrian, when it is anything but, and made the universe feel really small. All in attempt to make it feel "real" [eye roll]. On top of all of that, it looked like a bowl of oatmeal with the occasional explosion. They had an opportunity make something that was aesthetically unique, but instead they leaned hard into the Bedouin & Middle Eastern cultural appropriation that lined Herbert's books. Do better Hollywood. I also hate that they cast Timothée Chalamet and Zendaya as Paul and Chani. Neither of them felt like the characters they were supposed to be playing and the dialogue between the two of them felt contemporary to our own world. These are characters who have experienced incredible things, like Chani growing up on Arrakis with the Fremen, but they both sound like they're at Coachella sharing a joint. Do I believe this Paul would become the Emperor from Dune Messiah? Absolutely not. I will say that Chalamet's acting got better in between films, but not by much. I'm wary of a sequel film, because the Dune books only get weirder, yet Villeneuve is hellbent on making these films as approachable and mundane as possible. Don't get me wrong, I like most of his films. That being said, his vision for this world was misplaced. Saying dialogue is for tv and stage, and that he can't remember any good lines from films, is ludicrous. You know which films I can't remember a single line from? Denis's. Sure, I remember scenes, but try to piece together the plot beat-for-beat of Arrival solely from memory and you'll find it's a near impossible task. I first read the Dune books when I was 8 years old growing up in the 90's. I've waited so long to see them brought to life in live action and each iteration seems to always miss the mark. I mean how is Villeneuve going to do the appearance of a Guild Navigator, like in Dune Messiah? I shudder to think. I hope they recast Paul and fire the art director. I want bizarre Dune, like the Axlotl Tanks or Chairdogs. Not a teen love drama incidentally set in a sci-fi universe.

[@lloroshastar6347]

I don't know why American's always butcher French pronunciations so much 😂 it's hard to write down a pronunciation guide but it's not 'villa-noov' it's closer to 'veal-nerve' (less emphasis on the 'veal' so you barely say the L at all). I'm not French but familiar with that surname as it's the name of a Formula 1 driver Jacques Villeneuve (whose father Gilles was also an F1 driver) and it was the name of an Admiral during the Napoleonic wars, Pierre-Charles Villeneuve.

[@richlisola1]

Dune exists 20,000 years in the future. Arabs as we know them now no longer exist. It’s explicitly stated that the Fremen religion evolved from a mixture of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam, altered much by the physical world of Dune. Human races aren’t tied to specific cultures in the Imperium as they are today. No we don’t specifically need Arabs playing Fremen. What we did not need was a race and gender swap of everyone’s favorite imperial ecologist in Dune Part 1.

[@jamesmunn576]

Dune Part 2 is not a good adaptation, and breaks the orginal story.

[@redblack9618]

Really hard to watch somebody talk positively about a skinny actor in a fatsuit uncritically and not have it even touched on.

[@jordon2074]

I do have to ask how you cast characters that are fat but don't look a way any fat person would ever look? Do we change how they look, or is it just time to go full VFX etc?

[@jessiegenderafterdark5287]

Just a correction, I do point out about midway through the talk the issue with having fatness be coded as evil and the problems with that.

[@redblack9618]

@@jessiegenderafterdark5287 Thanks, that point knocked me out of the video and I stopped watching, glad it gets brought up later. However, it's not just fat people being coded as evil, the fatsuits themselves are awful as a whole. And the anti-fat sentiment of people defending it in your audience and 10 people liking your comment with mine having zero? Suggests your audience also didn't take away that fatsuits = bad.

[@redblack9618]

@@jordon2074 You cast fat actors and let them have input, for one. Also you just...don't use fat people or disfigurement as shorthand for evil.

[@Sharpclaw2000]

idk if skarsgård is that skinny and they did talk about it :/ Maybe you missed it?

[@MikeBenko]

1. I seriously doubt either of you are actually truly familiar with the source material. 2. While Villeneuve made an adaptation, the story you want him to tell is literally just not Dune anymore. Like it's not even an adaptation at this point. 3. Your nitpicks about representation here is REACHING so far you might just reach all the way around and scratch your own ass. You utterly lost me with this one.

[@TheSuperRatt]

The story Denis told is remarkably faithful to the themes and conclusions of the story in its entirety, not just the first book. So cope and seethe.

[@MikeBenko]

@@TheSuperRatt Read my post again. Slowly.

[@notfromhere8889]

They are right to want changes, though. We have spent most of 6 hours cheering for Paul in a traditional hero story. We are told it is not good but never really shown. Chani is probably the best character to rebel against him. It would be more meaningful. We haven't spent any time with the people who will suffer. Billions of innocents dying means nothing unless we have an emotional window to them. Chani fits the bill.

[@notfromhere8889]

And remember, Chani said she was only with him if he didn't change. If she just goes back to him as some free booty, it won't work. The Emperor's girl can have Leto 2 and Ghami

[@nataliajimenez1870]

​@@notfromhere8889 No she can't because then there would be no Fremen blood in them so they would not be connected with the Shai Hulud so you would destroy all the Children of Dune story. It's possible that by the end of Part 2 Chani is pregnant with the twins

[@MrzPicklez]

No offense, but have you even read the books? You’ve constantly gotten names wrong, relationships between characters wrong, reasonings for motivations wrong.