Spinning Jump Planes A Thing

Are spinning Jump Planes - A Thing? It seems crazy to me. Luckily everything worked out!
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition. Thanks for that easy lob, Scott...and the spinning skydive planes breakdown. Both of those spins were definitely unexpected...but as you succinctly pointed out...they were totally predictable. Spin entry and recovery was some of the most fun I had in flight training. I recommend it not only for the learning experience...but also for the fun of it.

[@dhones23]

Scott, great review of this video. I agree that the quality is great, pretty amazing tech these days. My take, as a guy that's done a bunch of paradrop in the Army flying the C-23 Sherpa: First off, I'm surprised at the aircraft configuration, primarily the asymmetric power. What I'm not surprised by is the departure itself. I believe this pilot was very possibly at the down elevator stop at the point of the stall due to CG. We very strenuously briefed and enforced a max number of jumpers aft of a marked station in the cabin, yet I still had a few times where I bumped the elevator against the stop. At least I had a Flight Engineer to communicate with that could address the problem, I'm sure this guy didn't have that luxury. Jumpers tend to get very excited and focused, and will all pile up in a heartbeat if you let 'em. His aileron input as the wing stalled didn't help, and I don't know what all the meat bags hanging onto the side of the aircraft were doing to the airflow over the tail. As far as the secondary stalls, I would assume he was still at idle, and it was just too much pull. Perhaps he was mashing the electric trim and the changing stick forces caught him out. Exciting and educational either way!

[@TgardnerH]

That last jumper bailing out is my favorite part of this video.

[@DHC-6aviator]

Great take on the incidents! Thank you from Twin Otter parachute and warbird aerobatic display pilot living in Norway. I totally endorse your view on this issue!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Steinar!

[@MIflyer5124]

Two other things to consider. 1. The skydivers crowding together to go out the door gave the airplane a sudden aft CG change. 2. The skydivers hanging on the side of the fuselage in the DC-3 blanked out some of the airflow over the rudder. Over 20 years ago in South Florida we were treated to the video of a Cessna 172 loaded with jumpers spinning into the ground. I do not know how many jumpers got out but the pilot did not. I have seen a stall up close. Right after releasing our glider the towplane pilot decided to do a stall. When the stall broke his harness came loose. He let go of the controls and the airplane spun, passing us about 50 ft away just as we came out of our post release steep turn. Great video!

[@lapoint7603]

I passed my PPL check ride in 1983. Most of my instruction was taken from a Northwest Airlines 747 capt who enjoyed flying. We did a fair amount of stall/spin recognition and prevention as well as as stall/spin recovery training. Once I began to understand what was happening and how to recover it was actually enjoyable. Thanks for another great video Scott!

[@kevinstone9638]

I plan on attending some good training on upset recovery. I think that it is truly a life saver especially after seeing this video. I greatly appreciate pilots like you, Juan Brown and Dan Gryder for talking about these topics and bringing this information out to new pilots like myself. Thank you guys again.

[@jfkastner]

Every pilot & student should watch this and re-learn the physics. Luck was noone bumped into the tail, and it happened at FL 160. Thank you, Scott, you are saving lives!

[@BruceDuncan]

Come and fly gliders. We fly around at minimum sink all the time and so we practice stalling and spinning recovery and avoidance regularly! Good analysis, thanks.

[@SVSky]

Stalling out of thermals and ending up nose down unexpectedly is a way of life in soaring.

[@steveb6590]

Training in entry and recovery from incipient and full spins is an essential part of gliding. It is a great confidence and competence builder.

[@ianschutt6242]

I now know what an E-Ticket ride is! Thanks, Scott great video, and yes isn't it great that the image quality and camera-ship enabled such detailed analysis...It's surprising that a nose down King Air isn't that much slipperier than those skydivers.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@Byzmax]

Love your excitement at the video quality. Great breakdown of events as always.

[@skipwood2059]

Having spent 1000's of hours flying USN single seaters with AOA and performing slow flight and hassling, I think an AOA display with a warning horn would have benefitted this pilot/crew to avoid the stall. The horn and display would have given an early warning of what was going to happen. Truly outstanding video. Definitely award winning. Any comment, Scott?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

AoA indicators would be a good thing... True AoA (derived AoA is just an approximation).

[@skipwood2059]

@@FlyWirescottperdue I concur on your derived AoA. It took me 3 flights of an hour or more to calibrate the Garmin 260 to a C-172S accurately with a co-pilot. it was tedious.

[@jonathanrabbitt]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Wouldn't the critical indicated AoA change with configuration (i.e. due to asymmetric inputs/power etc)?

[@jonathanrabbitt]

What I'm trying to say is; any AoA instrument would be measuring the AoA at wherever the vane is located. There would have to be a good safety margin built in to its calibration to accommodate asymmetric configurations.

[@thierrygaillot1980]

(4000 paradrops in a previous life) My take on it is you'll probably get your warning too late unless you are the one letting your speed decaying. I had a very close call in a D18-S during a jump run, to the point that my yoke was all the way forward to its stop, both engines powered up to the max and we were still heading more and more upward! Upward until they all let it go felling a mushing floor under their feet... I was initially carrying the same airspeed and configuration as usual, it's just that too many literally lunched in the back of the plane/hanging outside at the same time. It went from everything under control to nothing under control in a blink of an eye....

[@nickinportland]

It’s interesting hearing Scott’s take vs Blanco. You can definitely tell Scott has lots and lots of experience spinning planes around 😂 🛩🌪

[@peterstickney7608]

Juan makes some salient points as well - That King Air was right at the edge - on the bad side of the edge of Vmc, carrying very little power on the left side (Throttle back, and low prop RPMs) and, from the pilot's account, METO (Maximum Except Takeoff, or the equivalent) on the right side, and also just above Vstall for that configuration. In the King Air video, you see the fun really start when one of the jumpers moves outboard, which, I expect, blanked off a fair chunk of the left stabilizer and elevator (More pitchup), and perhaps the rudder as well. I also agree with Scott's take - that we've been spending nearly a half a century avoiding stall/spin training accidents by not training adequately for stalls and spins. Yes, it cuts down on training accidents, but when they occur our in the wild... When I was a student Glider Guider in the early 1970s, spin training was mandatory before solo in any ship we flew - The trainers can be lazy, but the high performance sailplanes with their specialized airfoils and relatively small tails (To minimize drag) can be vicious - no warning, and they'll really snap you around. Since a sailplane spends a lot of it's time circling at low speed (Minimum sink, which is also high drag) you could very easily spin out when trying to core a thermal, and you got a bit sloppy. So we prepared ahead of time.

[@nickinportland]

@@peterstickney7608 wow interesting! Salient points on those sail planes (see what I did there). I don’t fly anything but a kite but love to learn about it. Starting to get it. Maybe I’ll try it out one day, the gliders are really cool!

[@jonathanrabbitt]

IMHO, Juan was more focused on avoidance/prevention issues (i.e. jump procedure), whereas Scott here is commenting more on the piloting failures during recovery. Both legends are bringing valuable contributions to the aviation community.

[@milosbrndiar]

Thanks for Video & Excellent analyse. Specially thanks for your "step on the ground, step on foot that the ground is going towards " method to determine which foot to use + "focus on the yaw" form your previous "Spinning a Bonanza" video which helped me with my spin training. Really important points in case of inverted spin, where roll and yaw are opposite.

[@gregfaris6959]

11:20 - Amazing video of a departure from controlled flight! Look how fast that happens!!

[@robertlewisvideo]

Awesome Video ( from the Jumper ) and Awesome Detailed Explanation ( from Scott ). I Learned a Lot. Thanks. Fly Safer with more Recovery Training. Yes, always learning.

[@tonydeaton2890]

A DC-3 in a high speed stall, then a spin, then perpendicular in a dive, then living to tell about it. Gives me the willies just thinking about it.

[@lenflier3826]

This video was nicely done -- one of Scott's best. I had seen the King Air spin elsewhere but not the DC-3. Putting them together like that was creative. I also came away with a greater appreciation for the clarity of the video and the awesome perspective we get from the skydiver camera. We shouldn't take such things for granted, and Scott's enthusiasm makes sure that we don't. I'm now sold on spin and upset training. I've spun gliders -- with a CFI -- and it was ...exciting... shall we say. I'm looking forward to trying it in an aerobatic single-engine plane.

[@colinmccune569]

Well presented Scott . I agree with your theory . I'm an airline pilot but keep myself conditioned with my 7KCAB Citabria. Training and prevention keeps us all safe

[@mattjacomos2795]

This reminded me of an incident I experienced when taking lessons in a 152 Aerobat. We briefed for approaches to the stall and stalling. Took off and climbed out to the manuvering area to experience stalls. On the VERY FIRST attempt to stall the little Aerobat, deep in the pre stall mushing down and it just would not stall, so the instructor booted the left rudder and the next thing you know we're looking straight down and spinning. He looked and me and I looked at him and took my hands off the controls. I only had like five hours as a student. The instructor recovered the controls and forever since I have thought WTF was he doing?

[@TriFlyAdventures]

I've always been shocked that the FAA doesnt mandate spin straining to all students. Here in Canada, is it part of the PPL (albeit is untested, only practiced) but for CPL, it is tested in the checkride. I find it VERY important, case and point, this situation. Great review on the situation!

[@306champion]

Thanks for a great video Scott. I AM NOT a pilot but have flown. In the second case it hit me, port engine reduced to idle then all the jumpers hanging off the port side, I realised the amount of drag on one side with skydivers must create a lot of yaw (not that I really thought about it before). That footage was great. Theres nothing like training, training and more training.

[@julesviolin]

My understanding Maurice is that the 6 jumpers obscured half the elevator of airflow and that's why you see the nose rise before the left wing drop. The Yaw aspect is normal and accepted by jump pilots

[@Airplane_Willy]

Scott, thank you SO MUCH for your insight as someone with advanced aerodynamic experience. Guys like me with basic GA experience can have an educated guess, but guys who have experience similar to yours have experience at the edge of the envelope. Giving critiques with educated guesses is quite different than critiques based on experience.

[@thomasbelmont810]

This is a fascinating incident and I love your analysis, as well as your appreciation of the truly stunning video. One thing that really stands out is ‘Yellow Helmut Guy’. He is large, and when he leans back he really exacerbates the blanking of the horizontal stabilizer, causing the pitch-up. This actually causes the departure as the pilot runs out of elevator. He can’t unload the wing until those dudes fall off. Oof 😓

[@monacosfranz4202]

That’s a great review. I really enjoyed into how much detail you went. Also I 100% agree that spin recovery should be in the syllabus of every basic flight training. I have a glider license and we do spin recovery training every once in a while.

[@lockedin60]

A wake up call for both pilots. You and Juan and Dan continue to stress of practicing maneuvers when there is an upset and your chances of a safe recovery increases dramatically. Maybe the FAA should implement AQP steps to practice stall and spin recovery procedures on jump planes. I just read the FAA handbook for Jump Plane Operations. It mentions the Cessna 182 is used by many jump plane operations. Is there some type of documentation that recommends which aircraft is either certified or suggested for Jump Plane operations. Both stall/spin pilots recovered but not before dropping their hearts to their feet!

[@Qrail]

Always informative, and a different take on it from what Juan saw. It’s always good to get two sides to a story. I just wonder how far that last exiting jumper had to walk upon landing. Jumping through clouds would not be my first choice, and maybe the last guy thought the plane wasn’t operating properly, and he wasn’t taking any chances.

[@shenandoahhills7263]

Loved the dissection. The Pilot stated that the jumpers being on the outside blanked the left elevator, that with the aft CG there was insufficient down elevator authority to counter the pitch up. Seems the last jumper to exit the aircraft was leaning away from the fuselage just enough to disrupt the flow and initiate the pitch up. Aircraft are designed to be dynamically stable, so that neutralizing the controls will, in most cases, allow the inherit self correcting qualities to take affect. If the jumpers had stayed in the aircraft, (earlier in the sequence) then this stall may have not been recoverable due to the extreme aft CG.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Good comment, and I agree that wold have been the likely outcome.

[@ALSmith-zz4yy]

That last jumper probably thought his bail out was going to get him a membership in the Caterpillar Club.

[@Peasmouldia]

There's a very few things that would get me to parachute from a perfectly serviceable aeroplane. This is probably one of them.. Thanks Scott.

[@leeroyholloway4277]

Most jump planes don't exactly fit the category of 'perfectly' anything...

[@LTVoyager]

I agree on the training aspect. I am not slighting the need to good stall recognition and spin avoidance, but the reality is that most spins happen quickly and when least expected and the recognition and avoidance just isn’t effective. All pilots need spin training until they are comfortable with spins and spin recovery.

[@WatchingUntiltheEnd]

The last skydiver was tossed/ thrown. She was pinned initially, I believe, then ejected. There's an article with her interview somewhere.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

Great vid! You can see video of me flying jumpers in a King Air where I let Steve (FlightChops) jump from 19,000 feet! See that video on his channel. I’ll be posting more jump video on my channel where I let my kids both jump out of our DC-3 (first jump, static line) a few years ago! No wonder that both of these spins occurred, very bad pilot technique in both cases, and improper procedure.

[@willhibbardii2450]

Jumping from perfectly good aircraft is performed routinely... This presentation adds a proficiency element to aviator training. UP (Upset Prevention) is key when cargo/passengers move to aft CG. SP (Spin Prevention) is paramount awareness that if an aircraft loads to aft CG and enters a spin, it's like swinging a cat by the tail... The cat/pilot/passengers/aircraft & cargo can't do a thing but go for a ride to the ground!!! No cat/aviator's input will prevent, unless that aft CG load is changed to forward CG!!! Much more than a good idea to avoid if load shifts aft in my book, plus the added dynamic of jumpers disrupting air flow. UPRT (Upset Prevention Recovery Training) is a pilot's skillset to prevent an aircraft from entering a spin. Relational UAT (Unusual Attitude Training) - SAT (Spin Awareness Training) and SRT (Spin Recovery Training) are other skillset elements of transforming pilots to become aviators. Keeping airspeed up by pointing the nose down is Flight School 101 to avoid stalls... A dirty shallow dive configuration keeps an aircraft above the power curve and avoids the need for spin recovery. UPRT really is flight school 101 to avoid stall, spin and snap roll configurations... Thank you Scott! Love your channel and the comments. Top of mind awareness to Spin Prevention is paramount...

[@TheBullethead]

Scott, I 95% agree with you, especially regards the King Air. Where I differ is on the specific methods you state for getting OUT of spins. I did my PPL circa1980 back when doing 3-turn spins and recovery therefrom were part and parcel of PPL. And thus I was spinning from the get-go, and I immediately learned that spin recovery (and prevention) is highly airframe-dependent. I'd been flying RC planes for about 5 years by then (and UC for 5 years before that) so knew a bit of aerodynamics and stall/spin causes, preventions, and cures by then. But when I got in a real plane, it was the infamous "Traumahawk". This plane, AT THAT TIME (before various AD-mandated mods), was built explicitly to have stall/spin characteristics that were pure evil, AS A MARKETING DEVICE. "If you can survive a Tomahawk, you'll fear the stalls of no other plane.". That's why I chose to learn in this ride instead of the almost universal alternative, the C152, which has to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into any sort of uncontrollable depariure. Anyway, the untamed Traumahawk's natural and expected, controls-neutral, post-stall behavior was to roll completely over while losing a couple hundred feet. And then the bitch would flat-spin so fast you were pinned in a corner of your seat desperately fighting the Gs to reach the opposite rudder pedal. Because neutralizing the controls DID NOT stop the spin as it started with neutral controls. Nope, the recovery procedure was to bash the throttle forward while jamming full down elevator and slamming full opposite rudder AND aileron. And then, once you'd done those things, pull up any flaps you had down at the time and then start gently pulling up, which the full power you'd previously applied should now allow you to do without a secondary stall. So then we were taught spin avoidance. Which was, as soon as a the bitch started rolling over, do the spin-recovery thing of instant and violent full power, full down, full opposite, and yank up the flaps, then pull up gently once you had flying speed again. If the roll only reached about 45^ and you only lost about 100' in this process, it was a pass on the check ride.

[@pauleyplay]

And the factory knew all this. I didnt and still dont get it. Your story is well told !!!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Bull, recovery depends on the airplane and I say that in multiple videos I have done on the subject. But for MOST airplanes what I say in this video is correct.

[@centralwebs]

Great critique, analysis, review, training and humour Scott. Back in the early 1980's I did an autherised jump, as 1st diver out of five, going out of a Cessna 206 in a parabolic dive, I literally floated weightlessley out of the door. I was then outside looking in at the plane as we both fell before it sped away as I dropped, A wonderful buzz for me. The others didn't exit, on the ground they told me it had looked as though my head had taken a tail strike, which it hadn't but the jump master immediately cancelled the parabolic dive. Later I studied physics for a few years, and still use the argument that objects of different weights fall at the same rate with the exception of drag, when talking to flat Earthers. lol

[@timothyward1310]

One of his best. He is the professor of all things spin. So informative.

[@scotturschel4439]

Great Video Scott. Also good job on straighting up all the pictures on the hangar wall 😎🚁

[@tomdchi12]

So much to learn from this mishap! Very glad no one was hurt.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Me too!

[@alantoon5708]

Those who visit this page may recall the recent crash in Hawaii of another skydiving King Air that killed all on board. That airplane had been involved in a previous violent spin incident that resulted in the loss of the entire left horizontal tail and the warping of the left wing. Although the tail damage was repaired, the wing damage was not. The wing damage resulted in the left wing stalling before the right. This was cited as a contributing factor in the Hawaii crash. (The primary probable cause was the pilot's rather non standard piloting techniques on take off, along with weight/CG issues). So, a spin/departure in an airplane not designed for aerobatic flight can have serious consequences down the road...

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Absolutely right!

[@A333A343A346]

A very comprehensive analysis of the event. Nice job. I’ve passed this onto the pilot involved.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks. I hope he gets some UPRT even 5 jumpers is a risk. I think best practice would be to be in idle on both engines.

[@A333A343A346]

Agreed. As an IRE/TRE on the 777-300ER I frequently instructed on, and received, upset recovery training. Absolutely invaluable for any pilot.

[@StephensonRaceTech]

Great video!

[@erictaylor5462]

What does it do for the confidence of the pilot to have all his passengers say, "That's it, I'm out."

[@robinmyman]

Excellent analyses … I’ve done nothing but power on and power off stalls during last 6 lessons…PA38. Instructor from California drumming recovery into me. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

[@flyingfox8360]

give that camera man an award! i cant even get a clear picture of my dogs, he caught the COOLEST angle of a pilot shitting his pants.

[@Franklin-pc3xd]

Funny this should come up. Not too long ago I ran across a YT video of a Pilatus jump plane doing it's vertical down flight routine kind of dancing around near the jumpers on descent. It almost looked like the pilot was intentionally spinning the aircraft down - so it probably wasn't actually a spin but some kind of manipulation of that prop reverser??? Anyway, when I watched that performance I recall thinking the last thing I'd want to see flying around me, as a skydiver, in any configuration is a turbo-prop with those four big knives spinning around at 2,500 RPM - or whatever. The video made it look like the pilot and the jumpers were actually trying to remain in in proximity for a planned photo shoot script.

[@josephranker5716]

Great video, completely understandable for a non pilot..now I understand a little more, thanks

[@Myrulv]

Interesting to watch! Greay work, Scott!

[@batakasthedrummer]

Im a skydive pilot here in Mexico, and i know a guy that one day was flying a trusty C 205 (a 206 without the cargo door) he was pleasently listening to music on his bose a20, when the two tandem instructors heard the stall horn, look to each other with the surprise of the pilot ignoring it, seconds later, the aircraft spins, and the video inside the cockpit shows it all, he does exactly the opposite while in the spin, full back pressure on the yoke, and opposite ailerons, thanks to the indullgent airplane, recovers itself (pilot just let go the controls), and they are back flying. I don't know why the schools have the fear to cause an accident during flight training, and they don't teach students to spin an airplane because of that... Just a taboo, agree 200% with you, training is all, most commercial pilots haven't had bank an airplane above 45°, even 30°, good luck for them during an upset recovery. Great video.

[@RMR1]

All due respect to Juan over at blancolirio, but Scott's analysis on the Bonanza was far more in-depth, especially when it came to the secondary stalls. I like Juan's channel and his video on this incident was informative. Certainly nothing wrong with it. But Scott's just seemed to have a lot more useful detail overall. Well done.

[@berryreading4809]

Well this is literally what Scott has made a career of doing, both in the military and now even providing roll recovery specific training... so I wouldn't expect anything less 😉 if you notice JB also watched Scott's video, luckily now we may get to see them rolling in the bonanza together sometime in the future 👍

[@mutthaam2396]

THANK YOU!!!!

[@blancolirio]

Yea, he was horsing it, you can see the elevator. Good Stuff Scott!! Let’s do some upsets in your Bonanza and share it. Jb.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Would love to, we just need to work out the timing!

[@berryreading4809]

Dan can be the skydiver camera operator!... the wind noise should muffle most of his commentary 😁 👍

[@stevespra1]

Nice job Scott. No doubt we all need upset recovery training. It's imperative. However, I think (like Juan said) more things need to change than just limiting the jumpers on the outside of the fuselage to 5. Flying on the edge of VMC with full flaps, left engine to flight idle, tail heavy and a big "sail" of jumpers hanging on the side of the plane... I can't believe they don't stall/spin everytime.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

@@berryreading4809 most people want my commentary muffled anyway...

[@bernardc2553]

@@thelastword.1313 ya ALL 3 Amigos Go for it guys

[@WarblesOnALot]

G'day Scott, Yay Team ! You're right mate, we should probably try to get to "get a Pup" out of that there Camera, if ever it has a Litter ; the Cinematography was superb. Watching it on my Phone, from other Channels' videos which lacked your own Production Abilities, and (thus) without the zoomed Freeze-Frame Shots which feature herein..; I hadn't fully recognised quite how brilliant the Camerawork actually was. Whoever took that Footage probably deserves a Prize of some sort...(?) ! And..., the people who made that Camera - they did done do amazingly well, too. I think that when people are trying to cover their Aeroplane's Operating Costs, and feed themselves as well - by ferrying affluent Yuppies up to 16,000 ft so they can all jump out together and then fall down in transiently momentatily artistic formations together...., then occasionally stalling the Aeroplane while waiting for the (Cash-Cows) Customers to get their Act together, all dithering on the Doorstep and hanging on like a bunch of Grapes in the Hatchway - it would be such a commonly available option that the possibility thereof should probably be specifically addressed in EVERY Pre Take-Off Briefing to the lucrative Leapers, with illustrative descriptions of Pre-Stall Buffet and instructions to immediately separate from the Aircraft at the earliest perception by the Jumpers that the Aeroplane is commencing to Stall. The Jumpers will likely benefit from knowing that if they wait for the stalled Aeroplane to commence Autorotating in the Spin..., then they will have the absoute Status of being Sentient Meatballs, all waiting to be summarily minced in their trajectories by the Kerosene-burning Whirligigs on the Wings of the uncontrollably-spinning and falling Hairygoplane... So, in that game..., any flight wherein no Customers are actually sliced and diced in Freefall, or knocked unconscious by the Wingtip or Tail-Surface of a spinning Jump-Ship..., and whence nobody breaks any Arms or Legs, or Necks or Backs while flopping around unrestrained inside the Cabin of the suddenly spinning machine ; that's a "good" Revenue-earning Flight, which they will record in the Logbook and enter as such on the Balance Sheet. From memory, nothing takes the shine off the fun of going flying faster than constantly worrying about having to break-even after paying all the Aeroplane's Bills...; Helicopter Barnstorming is great fun, until wondering if one will sell enough Joyrides to cover the cost of the Ferry-Flights to get there and back...., and a Twin Turboprop Jump-Ship would have an inexorably insatiable appetite for consuming Money, in my estimation... So, as long as they manage to avoid actually hitting or hurting a Customer while stall/spinning out of a Jump-Run ; then aside from some contrite Lip-Service about having learned from the experience, and duly changed their Procedures accordingly - then by the end of the week they'll be back to "normal", and hoping to get away with it - one more time..., every time....(!). Normalisation of Deviance. Not unlike Actors playing with real Firearms while "SHOOTING" their Hollyweird Movies all about Cowboys & Itchybums...; normalisation of deviance, it covers many "Sins", so it does. Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !

[@magneticman2003]

I am mildly surprised that the balance of jumpers didn't exit the airframe at their earliest convenience but they were probably either stuck to the roof or floating in zero 'g', excellent synopsis Scott, cheers;-))

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

It is very hard to get out of a spinning airplane!

[@walterwaldeck620]

Thanks for the debrief Scott. What was really interesting about the C90 spin is that the pilot had almost full RIGHT rudder already applied before the start of the spin - and yet it spun to the LEFT! Indicating that the forces coming from the adverse aileron drag and the VMC condition were GREATER than the RIGHT rudder force which was anti-LEFT spin. This proves the often believed adage that the aircraft will always spin in the direction of the rudder deflection is incorrect! In fact the aircraft will spin in the direction the yaw moment is greatest - whether caused by rudder or VMC/adverse aileron drag. Whichever direction the yaw force is greater is the direction she will spin.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Indeed it is the yaw moment that makes it all happen.

[@simonsonjh]

This happened to me in a Cessna 182. I was inside when the stall occurred. I was unable to lift myself up enough to step out the door due to the extra G-force. I decided to simply roll out the door. There was no chance of doing the planned skydive because we were all spread out way too much to get back together.

[@dzuppi]

The pilot usually slows the aircraft down for the exit when the Jumpmaster calls out the 'Throttle back' comand. Depending on the aircraft he sets some flaps and lowers the gear. Once the skydivers started to climb out, he slowly increases the spped again to avoid the stall. But sometimes it happens. I was once in a Skyvan that stalled just before we exited ;-) We managed to clear the jumpship, the pilot caught it and landed normally for the next load.

[@tonycs-9]

Was on a Skyvan over Quincy Ill. sometime in the late 1980,s and it stalled just as we stood up, everyone beat feet out the rear. Over Muskogee Okl. going rear floater the DC-3 stalled, good place to be.Most of the times it was the jumpers taking too long to climb out. Sometimes it was the pilot....Scary stuff if your stuck inside...

[@williamtrusler1508]

Yet another great video! Very informative.

[@walterstafford9354]

great analysis!

[@leighhutchins5058]

Interesting analysis. I would add: I would think that the aircraft was trimmed excessively nose up just before the stall/spin. This would have been done because the slow speed required nose up pitch and the divers on the left side would be making the left elevator almost useless (bad air flow). After the spin starts the trim tabs get more air flow and continue to create a nose up elevator deflection which is what causes all of the subsequent stall/spin conditions. The pilot would have needed to push quite hard to fight the trim and keep the wing unstalled during the recovery while re-trimming. Leigh

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

If he had retrimed it would have been a handful!

[@leighhutchins5058]

@@FlyWirescottperdue yep! In many of the great still shots in your video I see what looks like significant nose up elevator which means either the pilot is pulling on the yoke or the trim is putting it there. Leigh

[@FarkyDave]

Looks like you straightened the pictures on the wall. Good job. Oh, great video, too, BTW!

[@ScumfuckMcDoucheface]

haha man oh man those crooked pictures bother me so much more than they should... sometimes I actually have to close my eyes and just listen otherwise my anxiety goes through the roof hahaha

[@patrickhanna2659]

That is funny!! Seems like OCD is more common than I thought… felt same way!!! 😂😂

[@jonathanrabbitt]

Ha. Now Scott knows how to yank your chain on every video.

[@wb8cxo]

I flew jumpers in 180's and 185's. With 5 jumpers hanging on the strut and right main (yea we had to lock the brakes for them LOL) quite commonly full aileron deflection barely kept the wings level and we pulled the power back to reduce prop blast. Jump runs were probably less than 60 seconds and we didn't care about loosing altitude from 10,5... Still a handful for the pilot for the run and we were crazy enough to do this in formation too. I don't know how many lives I used up flying jumpers as we got little to no training. I would hafta argue with management to get legal with 3 to's and landings in the Spring, the beginning of the season here in Ohio. But it was a buncha fun and I enjoyed flying jumpers. Flying a good jump run led to a good jump for the jumpers. Never experienced a stall/spin on jump run but did stall once while distracted looking down for the airport thru broken clouds not paying attention do flying the plane which was slowly loosing airspeed in the climb to 10,5. It broke and we got a quarter turn to the left (dumb shit)., recoverd, found the airport and let them go... Dumb lucky for the four years I flew jumpers!

[@pauleyplay]

WELL SAID SAME here. Many years Southern Cross Learn many things most pilots never experience !

[@terryboehler5752]

Ailerons. Keep them neutral in a stall in a turn and the airplane will break over the top. Add a little top aileron in the same stall and it will break out the bottom. Every time. Most pilots don't know this because they haven't practiced it. So in an accelerated stall as the airplane starts to nibble, the untrained reflexively add top aileron as it breaks and boom, out the bottom you go.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Exactly right. You need two things to depart.. Stall and the Yaw... ailerons induce adverse yaw.

[@notj5712]

16:36. Shows the props still asymmetric. Left prop full fine, right coarse. That can't help. Should have pulled power and equalized props. Now, what I don't know is if coarse or fine on both would have been better for the recovery. Scott?

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

A good jump pilot would never get close to stall/spin. I’m not an advocate of doin recovery training. I advocate spin PREVENTION training. Prevention is no accident.

[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

Being from the great frozen north...I had the benefit of both, which is what my opinion is based on. Preventing stalls is ideal (I'm a big fan of your work to bring AQP to GA) but I think it does a pilot good to have his world turned upside down in a controlled environment to experience the disorientation that snapping into a spin can cause. Also...it can be a heck of an eye opener for a pilot to get a 1st hand example of how much altitude you can lose in a spin...even if you do everything right. Besides...it's loads of fun.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

UPRT IS prevention training! Upset Prevention…..

[@thompsonjerry3412]

My thought exactly, some planes will not recover!

[@berryreading4809]

Good news Dan, Scott and Juan are going to do a Bonanza upset recovery video and you've been volunteered to do the exterior wide shots in your dive rig, better start doing some extra neck strengthening exercises to keep that shot perfectly centered and stabilized! 😉👍

[@davidsakal449]

Jumper education is a MUST! All jumpers should be aware that shifting the CG that far aft can cause serious problems. This can and should be brought up at Safety Day.

[@azspotfree]

I'd suspect that these guys did this on purpose, it did make for an awesome video, except that apparently one of the jumpers didn't get the message. That plane was still spinning hard when that last jumper finally got out. I think he might have been flung out

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

I'm a year late. Someone said they were involuntarily removed from the plane is why it was so late.

[@leifvejby8023]

I believe the gear out was for the cg - I have seen it in other cases too. Pro spin rudder baffled me though!

[@noyfub]

Great Commentary! I learned a lot.

[@DerekGranquist]

Scott, Thank you for sharing and your analysis. I'm seeing another thing that alarmed me. (I'm not a commercial pilot.) I see him extending flaps and changing the planes configuration WHILE jumpers are climbing out. That seems like a bad idea. He should have gotten set up in slow flight before giving the OK for the jumpers to climb out and position. The additional drag of the flaps along with the jumpers was a lot changing quickly to LWTD (Lift, Weight, Thrust, Drag) and he was not able to correct fast enough. The moment was moving rearward and port. The drag was increasing rapidly and to port. And possibly more. I would appreciate your thoughts/comments.

[@easttexan2933]

stuff legends are made of, if you survive. the jumper filming this sequence knows a thing or two.

[@ecossearthur]

Twas scary for sure! How many folks were shouting at the Pilots what to do!

[@Herlongian]

You here Pull up! Pull up! Maybe there should be a voice saying Push down! Push down! Or Let go! Let go!

[@DaleBoyce2012]

The pilot was fortunate to have recovered in VMC. I couldn't find the ground in any of those angles. I'm not sure this jump run was well-advised to begin with.

[@wchorner]

Exactly, VMC not stall spin. Loss of rudder control due to low airspeed with the critical engine at idle. VMC will happen without a stall. And from the video, it looks like the thrust was reduced on the right engine after the roll (nose down Dutch roll look) which is correct recovery then hit the secondary stall (actual stall) because the airspeed was not increased before pulling up with idle engines. Now some King Airs have auto VMC detection so I'm not sure if that was in play along with pilot reaction time. If you do a spin recovery in VMC roll, you could compound the problem.

[@artic9514]

Lets just take moment to appreciate the improvement in cameras over the years.

[@r.d.riddle2068]

In the early 80's we would static line jump from a 185. I would always wait for a stick that was made up of jumpers shorter than me, so I could be last on, first off. I did NOT want to be stuck in the tail of a 185 with 5 or 6 jumpers between me and the only exit. Yes, they lost the 185, the 210, and bellied in the Beech 18 that year. I went elsewhere.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Yikes!

[@markmotter7060]

Re: the King Air incident; too many jumpers taking too long at the exit, and too many people in the airplane to begin with. 16 in a C90 is crazy and overloaded

[@ronaldjennings8057]

Yeah you're right I'm glad nobody got hurt over that incident for sure and yes you are right that is one heck of a camera shots for sure great camera and the person who did it for sure thank you for the good video my friend reason I could say that there it's good no one got hurt God bless take care🙏👍🛩📽

[@wheelerdavea]

"E" Ticket ride? You are dating yourself. :) Love it.

[@bobbyholmes1717]

great analysis

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

It made me think of the 1996 Manchester Mosquito crash, that was even more painful. Video is on KZbin

[@johnbaugh1121]

Imagine if the pilot had just taken off from a mountain airport, wasn't making his climb gradient and pulled the aircraft into the situation we just saw. His three or four attempts to regain control might've had him hitting terrain. This guy was lucky to have altitude. Another thing he didn't do, which is good, is panic and hold the yoke back against his chest. A common panic move which would freeze the airplane in the stall- spin condition. At least he "worked the problem" and fought to regain control. Last, the King Air hates the last four knots above stall and the design really doesn't like that attitude. It wants to decelerate and stall or accelerate and get out of the buffet range. The engines aren't designed to fly at such a low power setting. The jump pilots need to add five knots to their minimum speed for what they're doing.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great comment, John!

[@brunodeluca7486]

Uh...skydivers crave altitude and the scenario you describe would never happen. They wouldn't be climbing out unless there was LOTS of air underneath them. I have a little over 5,700 jumps, almost a third out of a King Air.

[@carlospar3727]

@@brunodeluca7486 I think he was referring to the multifaceted learning point about the stall. In other words, the same untrained-in-stall-avoidance/recovery pilot could've caused a stall on climb out (the plane's climb out after takeoff to get to the jump point) while still at a lower altitude, whereupon he might not have the altitude to recover the aircraft from the subsequent crossover stalls before impacting the ground. Everybody knows jumpers want the most hang time/drop time they can get. We're trying to figure out the standardization solution to the problem of lack of stall/spin SA due to multiple constraints affecting even CFI candidates, leading up to incidents like this.

[@nightwaves3203]

Got a kick out of the last guy out comment and I'm sure it's true. Pearl Harbor at night had a Beech 18 go in during parachuting for a ball game. Only one survivor who said to heck with the no jumping from a spinning plane rule. He was being told not to jump while spinning at night.

[@peterlarson8932]

just lucky to have fully recovered before entering the cloud layer

[@brucedeville9053]

Made my first jump in 1963 and learn to fly in '78 followed by jump pilot duties until 2002. On the Beech 18 (& military C-45) I would drop the gear to help with CG, but only after "cut" and climbout is started. Four outside max, one in door (small door), one rear and two forward. Inside one at door rest forward. NO FLAPS EVER, I SAY AGAIN EVER. Turn jump run at 95 kts, clean airframe. Thirty seconds from "cut" ease power on BOTH ENGINES, probably no more than 2 - 3", reduced RPM by 150 - 200, add manifold heat close cowl flaps. On call for cut or GPS hit reduce power to 14" on BOTH engines while dropping main gear, MAINTAIN 90 kts Again MAINTAIN 90 kts. Sure it will settle, but no stall/spin. I have tons of time in Cessna 180/182, plus additional time in the Beech 99, Beech King Air 90, Twin Otter and the Queen Air. Each airframe has its own numbers but the secret to staying alive is controlling center of gravity & airspeed. The need to fly at or near stall speed disappeared with Piper J-3 jump planes and military surplus unmodified parachutes, about 1955.

[@davidc5657]

Wow. Crazy footage from helmet cam. I've done spins and other maneuvers in single engines but never a twin! I know that the Baron was never spin tested by Beechcraft. Was the King Air spin tested or was this video the new test flight? Good to see pilot finally got it under control and none of the jumpers got hurt.

[@andrewagner2035]

This is my friends plane, near Mossel Bay in South Africa.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Please tell your friend that his pilot needs to do some UPRT.... just saying.

[@JSFGuy]

@@FlyWirescottperdue I 2nd the motion... I've got aerobatic videos on my channel as well ✈️

[@andrewagner2035]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Ok. Nice description of the events leading up to the spin. This clip has gone viral. He has done a fair amount of flying it as a jump plane for a few years now, too many jumpers out and taking ages before letting loose. He owns and flies it. Also remember that this type of flying is anything but normal, before judging the pilot.

[@edwinhsingmaster9135]

Thank goodness he didn't hit one of the jumpers. Pre-flight, pre-flight, this is how these things are prevented.

[@jkorshak]

​@@andrewagner2035 Agreed. If I had to guess, when they practiced their climbout on the dirt dive, presuming they have a mockup, they practiced it without rigs on and then ran into issues squeezing out the last couple of floaters, which burned time. More often than not though, more "serious" dives will make the effort to practice a climbout on the mockup WITH rigs on. - they did take a long time climbing out. I'm not a pilot so I can't speak to how the power and rudder deflection was set, but I understand the physics behind it - I have about 3500 jumps with about 500 of them out of KingAirs and I have never heard of throttling back the jumperside engine and jacking with the prop pitch - we just always had someone big and strong climbout on front float to block the wind and were pretty conscious about cg in terms of if there were 5 floating and two in the door, anyone else on the formation were divers and set more forwards, not immediately behind the two set inside at the door. I jumped in SA at a Citrusdal New Years boogie and, no offense, there was some sketchy jump ops going on - mostly having to do with jumpers being low experienced on how to fly their canopy when there were 20+ other jumpers in the air at the same time - which is to say it seems these jumpers hadn't done a lot of KingAir climbouts putting five floaters out. Just a guess.

[@theresacaron4238]

When I trained for my PPL in Canada, you were trained for spin recognition and recovery before you soloed with flaps up and down. If anything, it sure ingrained a healthy respect for avoiding pro-spin control inputs, especially in the pattern. Don't understand why that training is not mandatory for all students, and not just CFI's.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I don't understand either, it was dropped in the US quite awhile ago.

[@Gadget0343]

Can't remember if I jumped a KingAir but did jump a QueenAir. It did stall and as I exited I was well above the plane and was worried about contacting the tail. Dan used to or maybe still dose fly KingAir jump planes. He would have some good insight on this.

[@bronco5334]

I suspect the gear on the DC3/ C-47 was down not only for drag, but for nose-down moment. When they're setting up a mass jump, there is an AWFUL lot of weight moving aft and shifting the CG aft; by having the gear down, producing drag below the thrust line, it would help keep the nose down.

[@harrydecker9159]

The female jumper who came out last said she didn't bail but having nothing to hold on to, was thrown around, ended up on the floor by the door, and was thrown out as she tried to get up. She was bruised but OK and jumped the following day.

[@kevincollins8014]

Yes I read that as well. I'm glad she wasn't knocked out or worse.

[@scottmackie2821]

"No one will suspect the Spanish Inquisition!". "...and a ruthless dedication to physics and the laws of aviation mechanics."

[@vladt8724]

video saved for regular reviewing ). thanks. btw. would extra drag from these jumpers hanging outside contribute to stall?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Yes, absolutely.

[@katien1684]

I Know you were trying to be serious..but you made me laugh.. you weren'making light of of the danger ahead..but part of you reacted to the stict to it.d mess..the chuckle made me laugh

[@bradmarcum2927]

Apparently SA has different rules for jumpers and cloud clearance.

[@Andrew-13579]

I watched the video portion of the King Air at 0.25x speed. Those jumpers hanging on the outside of the fuselage are disturbing airflow over the left-side horizontal stabilizer, aren’t they? Wouldn’t that cause loss of elevator effectiveness and a nose-down moment? When the jumper with the yellow helmet gets out (is he #6?), he really moves out far from the fuselage. Airspeed might be dropping here from the drag? Then the aircraft pitches up. Do the jumpers affect airflow over the wing if they are behind the wing? What causes the aircraft to pitch up? I was worried that the King Air was going to fly back into the jumpers after the first recovery. I also remember in the late 90’s an incident with a King Air 90 where one of the jumpers exited the plane too high, somehow and impacted the left h-stab and nearly tore it from the plane. His reserve chute automatically deployed, as designed, as he was knocked unconscious by the impact. The King Air landed ok. And yes, it seems like spin training (or such) should be highly recommended for skydiving operations pilots.

[@DARANGULAFILM]

With the bulk of the jumpers being above the thrust centreline, my imagining is that there would be a pitch-up tendency as well as masking of the left elevator.

[@tombowers3681]

So, I'm curious, do you think it was the drag of the jumpers that accelerated the stall or was it the effect of the jumpers moving aft outside of CG limits suddenly that caused the aircraft to exceed the critical angle of attack and depart?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Drag certainly played a part, but that shift in CG caused a pitch up the exceeded the Critical AOA

[@mikercflyer7383]

Scott. Dan Gryder would be a good source to interview because he flew jumpers in a KingAir and I am sure he will have something to say.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I have no doubt. He has already commented on the video.

[@robertthegrape2192]

Had I been in that King Air I'd still be cleaning out my skivvies! I agree, training is king!

[@BigWheelHawaii]

Foregoing --- **For Discussion Purpose Only** * This Is The First Man I Have Ever Heard,,,, That States This,,,, "Hold The Stick Aft,,, In a "Inadvertent Spin"... He's Spot On In Some Airplanes... If You Are Having Trouble,,, "Recovering From a Spin",,, Pull The Stick Back,,, Establish The Rotation,,, Full Opposite Rudder,,,, and Only After The Rotation Stops,,, Do You Release The Back Pressure,,, To The Point In Some Airplanes,,,, "Wait" and Then Throw The "Stick Up Against The Dash" ,,, But Only After The ROTATION STOPS.... All This Takes Time,,, Altitude Is Your Only Safety Factor... There Has Been a Rash of "Airshow Crashes",,, and 80% to 90% of Them Are Due To The Airplane Going an "Extra" Turn of Two,,, In a Spin,,, or a "Horizontal Spin",,, Called a "Snap Roll",,, Must Be 15 Video Clips of Airplanes Hitting The Ground,,, All Started Because,,, The Airplane Has GONE an Extra Turn of Two In a Spin, or Snap.... This Man Is Spot On... And He's So Correct,,, Not Many Pilots ,,, Including Flight Instructors,,, Know Much About "Spins"... What Scott Is Saying,,, May Someday Save Your Life.... BINGO,,, Secondary Stalls Were Due To The "Big Pull",,,,, "The Panic",,, "Big Pull",,,,

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great comment BIgWheel!

[@LTVoyager]

You win the worst grammar of the month award. Wow, it is really hard to botch the English language so thoroughly.

[@dibbles437]

I spent a few years flying jumpers in various turbine aircraft. I’ve been in a stall situation with 8 bodies hanging off the back of a caravan and all I could was force the yoke against the firewall and fly the rudder to keep the airplane from rolling.. basically just trying to keep the airplane coordinated with a stalled wing.. even with that.. all of that meat hanging off the back of the airplane made it rather interesting. One variable I haven’t heard on any of these videos is the pilots thought on hitting any of the jumpers in the process of righting the airplane. I would assume that could have played a part in all of this. This experience will make him/her a better pilot and could save their life down the road. They saved the aircraft and managed to keep their jumpers out of the props.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I suspect that it was pretty much luck that kept the jumpers from hitting the airplane.

[@erinchillmusic8930]

UPRT with spin exit on heading should be required for all private pilot training. Let alone commercial. It’s a shame that FAA doesn’t see it that way.

[@dibbles437]

@@erinchillmusic8930 I started to reply to this comment but honestly pilots have always been quick to eat their own. Have at it boys.

[@wb8cxo]

@@FlyWirescottperdue I'd hafta watch the vid again but I too was amazed the jumpers didn't get hit but I think they realized the jump went bad and it looked like they were tracking away from the plane! Great analysis that wasn't too judgmental!

[@wb8cxo]

Thanks for sharing your experience! The pilots were probably in a WTF mode trying to save their own butts! LOL

[@77thTrombone]

I heard somebody say that was Gryder in the cockpit! (Just kidding; I made it up entirely to ruin Dan's starling repetition.) So glad Scott covered this. I saw #Blancolirio's video on the king air spin and was hoping for Scott's thoroughly aeronautical assessment of it. Scott does not disappoint. Thanks, Scott!