Spinoza - Rationalist Atheist or Mystical Pantheist ? Exploring Spinozism from Toland to Deleuze

Spinoza's philosophical monism has inspired a truly wide range of of reactions through history from decrying his metaphysics as atheism to the romantic notion of him as the "God-Intoxicated Man." In this episode we explore this debate on the nature of Spinozism from the 17th century to contemporary philosophy.
Check out the companion episode from Seekers of Unity here - • The Metaphysics of Spi...
#spinoza #pantheism #philosophy

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

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[@WK-47]

Dr Sledge, my man, your intro - and indeed your work - is consistently divine. The inclusion of Billie Eilish in this video is the kind of subtlety and attention to detail that's just icing on the esoteric cake and, joking aside, part of what makes you stand out. I mean, 'habitual abyss-starer'? Brilliant - and if Nietzsche's 'stache isn't the epitome of nihilism, I don't know what is. Keep fighting the good fight. Thank you and God bless.

[@IOU1987]

12:30 how do you deduct Spinoza his opus leads to nihilism. He clearly wrote us a nigh holy book in the form of something seeming a metaphysical manual.

[@IOU1987]

If "God"=Truth, then yes, It is Nature (NTR), the one and only, unbending, "un-ending" and all-forgiving force in reality. Yes, it's "accuser", Samael, is atrophy.

[@changer1285]

"Authentic criticism is almost always an act of admiration" if only more people understood that.

[@R.LeeOtherson-dt8bx]

Totally

[@MyPhobo]

I mean, yeah. When someone criticizes you constructively, they like what you are doing and want you to perfect whatever that is.

[@Tuber-sama]

Aristotle and Plato, Leibniz and Descartes, Kant and Hume, Nietzsche and Schopenhauer, Husserl and Brentano, Wittgenstein and Russell...

[@changer1285]

@@Tuber-sama ok?

[@d.b.624]

If only authentic criticism was less rare...

[@SeekersofUnity]

What a gift to have a thinker like Spinoza opened up for us this way. Just dazzling. The last version was my favorite reading. Absolutely titillating. It's an honor to share this platform with you and to have collaborated together, again. Thank you Justin.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Many thanks, Zevi. Hopefully many more in the future - g'shabbes!

[@JoshDavisBlues]

Loved the body without organs joke XD The little bits of humor you slip in make this channel extra fun

[@Strauss-]

me: watching the video, enjoying it the video: "Leibniz with the good hair" me: oh right, the like button, I have to press the like button.

[@DrGayleDelaneyDreams]

Thank you for telling us that Bennett's criticism of Spinoza brought you almost to tears. And for underlining the admiration underlying the deep and careful critique based on knowledge of the subject. I teach the psychology of dreams, an area in which a Berkeley UC professor told me that by the time students are freshmen in college, most have already chosen their hero (Jung, Freud, Boss, etc.) and severely limited their perspectives in spite of knowing very little about their hero, or about any other alternative perspectives. This is very discouraging to someone who has dedicated her life to liberating the explorer of the meaning of a given dream from traditional systems and methods of interpretation. In my graduate student classes, I warn against "Comparing and Contrasting" between or among systems before you deeply study and understand each of the systems in question. To further this goal, our Mid-Term Exams are a lively discussion between students who each costume as the hero/representative of one of about 10 theorists/practitioners who first introduce themselves (a surprisingly underestimated task), then engage in defending their system and in challenging their interlocuteurs for 2 hours. Most then understand how little they know about most systems, including their chosen one, before they feel prepared to defend or criticize them.

[@hesssn]

Glad to see more attention brought to this great man. I am indebted to him, his philosophy solved my depression. "Do not weep. Understand."

[@chendaforest]

May I asked how it cured you? What did you do?

[@Darniros]

Same! He helped me a great deal. I am from the Netherlands, but never dug into Spinoza that much. I'm glad I finally did a few years back

[@delphinidin]

Can you do a video sometime on Isaac Newton's interest in mysticism? It seems to fit right in there with Spinoza and Descartes

[@fishtolizard3930]

Everything Is Music; Always Be Listening.

[@ruthbennett7563]

Stitching on some art of my own, this video essay, a pot of tea, & a spring break Friday... this is some seriously enjoyable slice of the human experience! Again, thank you for your ongoing work. Please know your uploads uplift your fellow humans.

[@damienlanza2634]

This channels content is the type of stuff I have been searching for (and making in my own way), for years. Love the esoteric focus and deep dives you do, Dr. Sledge.

[@Liam-B]

Spinoza is great! Wholesome, logical, free-thinking, and above all: Adequate. Great work!

[@PseudoPseudoDionysius]

Absolutely wonderful video, Justin. I just love how you get across the various wildly divergent understandings of Spinoza while also working to tease out why it’s such an exciting body of work in it’s own right.

[@josephknaapen6126]

As ever, I find your work stunningly gentle and inspiring. This one got me through a rough day's news, and plotted a good course for research as I worked on my art and cooking. Thank you, so very much.

[@dalus8073]

That was a fantastic lecture. I am new to Spinoza's thought, and this talk has pushed me over the edge towards now purchasing his Ethics. Thank you!

[@jeremiahmcpadden4386]

Your videos are so good. Clearly thoroughly researched and understood, and conveyed academically with nuance and humor. Thank you so much!

[@cherubinic1761]

Spinoza also has a very interesting reception in the religious philosophy of Vladimir Solovyov(1853-1900), particularly in his Sophiology where in the notion (or being) of Sophia, immanence and transcendence are held together. Towards the end of his life Solovyov wrote the article "In Defense of Spinoza's Philosophy" where he says that "despite all its incompleteness and imperfection, the concept of God that Spinoza's philosophy gives us meets the first necessary requirement of the true worship of and thinking about God." Also he says that Spinoza's philosophy was of help to him in his youth transition from positivist atheism to being a mystical religious philosopher. Great video as always!

[@mem1001953]

Thank you sir. I had not read or knew about Spinoza till 1998. I am 68 now. Since, 1972 I believed that Nature is real power than any epical gods are gods created by people. Today, hearing you here, I feel good and comfortable .Thanks.

[@Swamp-Bat]

I remember the first time I encountered Spinoza first year of community college and the relief I experienced when he put words to God In a way I always felt but couldn’t figure out the words for. His words lifted a large weight of my shoulders as a young alter boy pursuing God on a deeper level than the Church was able to provide me at that point.

[@Noise-Conductor]

Cool story. Also, your user pic is funny AF! 😂😇

[@lucretiak.7872]

glad to see some Deleuze and Guattari love on this channel. keep up the good work, doctor 🙏

[@asteroxfoundation]

There are so many religious tools available to work with in forming our own journey among the multiple paths to the Godhead. The tools created by earlier prophets and sages give us a foundation to build upon. Many are starting to wake up.

[@Binarokaro]

One thing that really stands out to me as a linguist about the discussion about Spinoza is that this is a picture perfect example of Saussure's signifier and signified. Spinoza used a sign (God) to talk about his philosophy, and that sign evoked a very different image in the minds of the readers (perlocution) than the idea Spinoza was trying to communicate (illocution), and unfortunately this led to people criticising him on points he wasn't arguing for because of this level of miscommunication and misunderstanding

[@dm8264]

Fantastic exposition! Thank you! 🙏🏼 I discovered Spinoza a few years ago during my own seeking, and his philosophy answered so many questions for me.

[@gurra991]

Very insightful and interesting video! As per usual. Thank you for this wisdom, and the labour put in to sharing it with us ❤

[@ingeteloo3065]

this is incredible work glad to have found your channel

[@louisdebeer2055]

Excellent videos; i do appreciate your subtle, lowkey humour and fantastic presentation

[@cormacolinde]

You definitely keep coming up with subjects that are to my liking. I read Ethics a long time ago and definitely enjoyed it, it has formed the basis for much of my personal philosophical system. I was studying math for a few years before, so the Ethics’ mode of presentation as a mathematical treatise felt more familiar than daunting. Deleuze’s comment about the Necronomicon is also interesting, knowing Lovecraft’s motif of “strange geometries” in his descriptions of the Elder Race constructions, it definitely harkens back to Spinoza’s strange use of geometry as a model for his main work.

[@yourfavoritejoo]

Here because of Seekers of Unity. Thank you both!

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Welcome!

[@williamchristensen7354]

I looked into Zevi's channel during your livestream! It's good stuff!

[@kaitakahata107]

Spinoza was sure based. Would love a look at Bergson's intuitionism or Peter Kingsley's comparison of Parmenides and Empedocles to shamanic ritual and samadhi

[@greggschwabauer6241]

At the risk of divulging my lack of education and philosophical depth, I have no idea what the above refers to.

[@br1qbat]

Interesting how wildly interpreted Spinoza is, especially given how careful he was in his own definitions.

[@jesseglass5674]

I like Spinoza's common name--His family and those with whom he chilled within the community called him "Bento." I live in Japan--have been here almost 30 years--so when I hear 'Bento' I think lunchbox and Max Ernst's Une Semaine Du Bonte. I also like the anecdote about how tolerant he was as a businessman. He got into some dispute with a customer who proceeded to take his hat and hit him over the head with it--or something to that effect--and Spinoza still kept his calm manner and managed the situation beautifully. Spinoza also grew up on the same block where Rembrandt's studio was located and it's nice to think that maybe he and R. had an acquaintance and that he might figure in a sketch or two. These items are from Steven Nadler's biography. There's also an interesting book about the face-to-face meetings of Spinoza and Leibniz--The Courtier and the Heretic, in which L. is presented--through his letters to Oldenburg--none too well as far as L's motivations in tracking down S and a copy of his final book. However, as you say, there's more speculation about S and those he associated with than evidentiary fact. Thank you for this great lecture!

[@PrivateCetchup]

excellent video! thank you for all of your hard work!

[@wowhamba]

I was looking forward to this! Amazing content.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Hope you enjoyed it - thanks!

[@gregcampwriter]

Someone on Twitter asked what people think of when the Netherlands come up. I said lenses, figuring that it covered Spinoza, Leeuwenhoek, and Huygens.

[@ChemistTea]

You are so great! I'm looking forward to reading Spinoza, because I've seen some really funny quote by him and I think it will expand on my thinking and understanding. Thank you for your work!

[@jameswiersum9003]

Excellent presentation of Spinoza. Years back I found a reprint of Richard McKeon’s 1928 “The Philosophy of Spinoza: The Unity of His Thought” at Powell’s Bookstore in Portland. It blew me away because McKeon presented Spinoza as the equivalent of Aristotle and avoided the stereotypical caricature of him as Pantheist or Atheist. The book in recent literature is rarely mentioned even though McKeon was a philosopher of the first rank. I would be deeply interested in what Esoterica has to say about this book. I was also happy to hear the Leo Strauss book mentioned, “Spinoza’s Critique of Religion.” In many ways it is a profound book and the point about Calvin’s theology of miracles overriding Spinoza’s rejection of miracles is incisive.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

Those who have been excommunicated ,often have something interesting to say.

[@joshwilliams3653]

You know, after reading the comments i find it both fascinating and enjoyable to see not only the scholarly recounts but also the spiritual, or theological for lack of a better term. Folks finding knowledge and folks finding faith. Not a common social paradigm. Where im from,it usually ends in physical discussions. It appears there is many more levels of human interaction i need to experience. And im down like 4 flat tires in the mud!

[@aminrodriguez4707]

Actually, flat tires in the mud would help you get unstuck, but I digress from the topic I guess.

[@K_E_Robin]

I've relearned of Spinoza directly through the Swedish Weird Fiction/Fantastique podcast "Udda Ting"(translates to "Odd Things" or "Weird Things"). Henrik Möller, the anchor and producer of the podcast, had an episode that was all about Spinoza and it changed my life. I'm a descendant of Sámi Noaiddis of the region surrounding the town of Jokkmokk, in Northern Sápmi. Even though I wished that I could believe in the existence of my anscestor-deities like Biejvve or Tiermes or the Akkas, I can't because I have a strict materialistic stance to nature. Yet: I'm not an atheist. I would even call myself a theist in some sense. Spinoza's worldview(the little of what I've learned) is the closest thing to my own, even though we differ in our spiritual background. I want to learn more about Spinoza and see if his writing could help articulate my own spiritual perspective.

[@rafaeldelaflor]

I came to make sense on whether Spinoza was an atheist or mystic. Had no idea this question was the premise of his entire work. I’m sorry to hear his exile. Thank you for the commentary Esoterica.

[@TimothyKirkby]

Wow thank you so much for this one! I've only just been looking into Spinoza myself. But because of this video I will certainly read his book/grimore Ethica ;)

[@Leiferuphugus]

Could find a good picture of the World Spirit? I love the subtext on your pictures! 🤣

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

I should have just used a pic of Napoleon :)

[@is7040]

@@TheEsotericaChannel Or Francisco d'Holanda's drawings.

[@nowaout8014]

i find spinoza and bruno the most fascinating characters of last 500 years

[@aliposhtpazan2625]

I don't know how to thank you for your useful informations and times you are spending and explaining in details all introductions. Many thanks

[@nopasaran191]

Spinoza is a deeply interesting person and a rebel with very strong strength in his convictions

[@dylanl2258]

Thanks for this work, man:)

[@timberfinn3131]

Thank you this video was fantastic

[@bloglivethehighve]

European favourite , Spinoza is a mindf.k for filosofical brainiacs and beautiful described by you.... Dear you :) thank you !

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Thanks - He's a tough one to crack but there is a beauty to his thinking. I've enjoyed studying him for years!

[@kirkkirkwood5799]

This was awesome, instant subscribe!

[@joyhollon4921]

Very powerful. 🙏 Thank you.

[@TheArtofEngineering]

It is interesting how ideas and their interpretation evolve/radiate in meaning over time. Ideas fester like organic matter in a heap of compost and nourish new ideas added to the pile. These new ideas may be unorthodox or even anathema to the original intent of the author or may add to the understanding, but ultimately it is all nourishment of one form or another. I guess to continue the gardening metaphor, worms are the zeitgeist of our times, transforming older ideas!

[@YouTubdotCub]

This video is incredibly good, instant subscription from me.

[@user-jq3qf1mn6h]

Heavy Metal episode!!! Thank you.

[@timelston4260]

Superb lecture, thank you.

[@yf1177]

This is one of the best analyses of Spinoza I have encountered. Now, I'm dying to know, Dr. Sledge, what are your beliefs? I see that you wear a kippah on your head, but what are the personal thoughts about god and religion that circulate underneath it?

[@FriendlyEsotericDude]

27:00 LOL, we love you Dr. Sledge.

[@PaulHaesler]

I have a t-shirt with a picture of Nietzche and the caption "I gazed into the abyss and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

[@matchoobocka]

"'The book was forged in hell by the devil and a renegade Jew.'" Then, THEN, YOU say, "One could only hope to get such a rave review, these days, on any book of philosophy that one could imagine publishing. OMG, I laughed out loud, hard. I love the education I get at this channel, but since this is one of the first comments I have actually got on my computer to leave, maybe I need to admit to myself that I might really be here for the laughs. You seriously crack me up, continuously. I get my daily dose of esoteric knowledge and often don't even have to search for stand up comedy for my daily dose of laughter. Thanks for keeping it real, Dr. Sledge. Many thanks. :)

[@TheModernHermeticist]

I'm wondering if the link to Kabbalah comes [artificially] through Ramon Llull (who was thought to be "a Kabbalist" for a long time on account of pseudepigraphically attributed De Auditu Kabbalistico). Llull was eventually a huge part of Leibniz's PhD dissertation on the combinatorial arts, and I'm wondering if Llull's vision of God as an unfoldment of vicissitudes (through his combinatorial art) is lurking somewhere in all that historiographical speculation.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

It's as a good a guess as any. Wachter first makes this argument in around 1699 in two texts, one of which only survives in a Russian translation, and seems to think that the Kabbalists held that God was Nature and that Spinoza is 'unveiling' this Kabbalistic ideas (better, error, to his mind) unto the world without all the trapping of Hebrew, etc. So far as I can tell this seems to misread Kabbalistic ideas more than it does Spinoza in the end. While the sefirot do 'reach down' to malkhut which is our cosmos, at least in some Kabbalistic schools, to my knowledge no Kabbalist I've ever read argues that God should be identified with nature. Even the later, more Hasidic linking of הַטֶבַע (ha-teva), Nature, and אֱלֹהִים (Elohim), God via gematria doesn't, to my knowledge, appear in the Zohar, Sha'Are Orah, Etz HaHayim, etc. I think its just more of Kabbalah functioning as a kind of cipher for X-tians to extract mystical secrets from when they want that or to blame as the origin of heresy and heterodoxy when that seems useful.

[@lamodernista]

I enjoyed your printed running commentary...funny!

[@vblake530530]

That last part, Doc. THAT LAST PART!

[@NegledushevaKci]

Would you please elaborate on the idea that no disenchantment of the world ever occurred? I'm very interested in your opinion on the topic. Thanx!

[@ONEEileenColts]

It's probably just the opposite that consciousness is God and consciousness gives rise to matter and life. Love your channel watching every single video as if I'm taking a course thank you!

[@masstv9052]

Consciousness is an emergent property of the chemical reactions in the brain. Consciousness doesn't give rise to matter

[@daveherbert6215]

Excellent, Spinoza as a proto hippy, cosmic vitalism wow. Dr Sledge also has a great sense of humour

[@candlehawk]

Sabbatai Zevi would be an interesting topic for a video, certainly a derisive figure that I would love to see a more measured and scholastic take on, opposed to what usually is written about him.

[@somethingyousaid5059]

Will you be making and uploading more videos that are focused on philosophers? I hope so.

[@iceblinkmender]

one of the few people worth idolizing.

[@jesseglass5674]

Was thinking about grimoire-like books in relation to Dee and what he represented of the science of his day and Newton's Principia, which has its place in the lineage of grand grimoires.

[@clifb.3521]

Giving this video a thumbs up feels in adequate 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍

[@ceriasophis405]

That was so insightfull.

[@samuelshepard]

This is one of my favorite videos of yours. Which translation of ETHICA would you recommend, please?

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

The Samuel Shirley edition is the standard in English...and published by Hackett, which is a great publishing house.

[@samuelshepard]

@@TheEsotericaChannel right on, thank you kindly!

[@TheArtofEngineering]

The loss of the mythic/religious dimension created by scientific rationalism via the enlightenment is explored quite aphoristically in E. F. Shumacher's book "A guide for the Perplexed". Spinoza seems a real challenge to explore without the correct background in philosophy? Thank you for the learned explanation!

[@shamanverse]

Amazing exegesis. Thank you.

[@germy22489]

You mentioned debates on dis/re-enchantment. I am myself studying this - any suggestions for who to read on this?

[@jeffd7976]

Excellent delivery on this episode. You must have really vetted what promised to be a tortured script here. How to do an intro and overview of Spinoza across time in 40min to a potentially unacquainted audience? *phew* Well done sir.

[@thesuperhero]

Absolutely beautiful

[@EMNstar]

Replacing God with Nature in Religion is a really interesting rabbit hole

[@MiguelAngeloCorreaJunior]

Please, help me out! I can find the reference that you gave here about "Jonathan Binet", Probably i didn't get ir correct, but I would love to study this work? Could someone help me out there please?

[@highwaytothesun]

phenomenal video

[@Thominiho10]

Is there someone who could help me find the precise quote where D&G links Spinoza’s Ethics with the Necronomicon? Can’t find it anywhere in the French version, at least. In English translation, maybe, for some reason?

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

deleuze.cla.purdue.edu/seminars/anti-oedipus-iii/lecture-02

[@chrislaflamme1]

Thanks!

[@mikereilly7629]

Been years since I have to dig out my books on the rationalists.i really wish I could afford to fund you,my income is fixed at $800 a month but I digress.This is brilliant dr. Not being able to read the original language results in such egregious errors!

[@georgeptolemy7260]

I'm so sorry, why is that? 😞

[@mikereilly7629]

@@georgeptolemy726060 years old, social security disability, 3 seperate heart issues one lung, pulmonary fibrosis, bone condition called aseptic osteo, necrosis, bones break, never heal.had tumors on my epiglottis, bilateral cataract surgery, with complication,3 quarter blind in left eye,now stomach cancer.If the fact that I'm " on the dole" makes you angry , no worries It's all good, can't last too much longer,we can hope.Be well,stay negative ( covid wise)

[@mikereilly7629]

@@georgeptolemy7260 no apology necessary, it's life......

[@georgeptolemy7260]

@@mikereilly7629 God bless you.

[@TheForeignersNetwork]

Spinoza was absolutely one of the greatest western philosophers to ever live, closely followed by Deleuze (in my opinion). As a practitioner of Buddhist tantra, I find a lot of parallels between their work and the thinking of Buddhist philosophers like Nagarjuna and Atisha. They are all hesitant to classify themselves as panpsychists but they also affirm that the mind and its fabrications are fundamental parts of reality as a whole. Talk about a hard problem of consciousness!

[@zelenisok]

In his 1837 book "The Holy History of Mankind" Moses Hess gives an interesting view according to which history is divided into three eras. The first one started with Adam and culminated in establishement of the ancient Jewish state, especially its interest-free jubilee-based economy. The second age started with Jesus, and culminated in the spread of the idea of moral universalism and the brotherhood of mankind. Finally the third era started with Spinoza, and will culminate in the establishment of a global communist society. Hess's interpretation not just of Spinoza's significance, but also of Spinoza's thought is also interesting (as far as I remember and understand, he understood his monism as practically important in synthesizing the spiritual and the material, ie morality and politics).

[@grndragon7777777]

I have an old book on Spinoza guess I'll read it

[@anteodedi8937]

As the famous theist philosopher Richard Swinburne puts it, a theist is one who believes that there is a God who is a ' person/mind without a body (i.e. a spirit) who is eternal, free, able to do anything, knows everything, is perfectly good, is the proper object of human worship and obedience, the creator and sustainer of the universe. This is how theism is understood in academic circles. So, Spinoza's pantheism/monism and atheism (the denial of theism) are fully compatible. Spinoza was an atheist, one of the greatest!

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Spinoza thought god wasn't a person but had a body and didn't care about being worshipped neither had a will to speak of

[@anteodedi8937]

@@TheEsotericaChannel Yes, the body/god was nature itself. Only the word "god" is left there. When you strip from god all the features usually considered essential, you end up with atheism.

[@sidikhattry2547]

Merci !!!

[@yochanan770]

Dr Justin, you have captured my man Freddy in all his staschio-ed glory.

[@jojones4685]

Ive read The Ethics and im planning on moving unto his theologico political treatise

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

The TTP is so much easier than the Ethics - the wind is in your sails!

[@jojones4685]

@@TheEsotericaChannel I may have to check out Bennett's book now

[@stevenv6463]

Is there any indication that Spinoza's critical reading of the OT was related to ibn Ezra's idea that some verses in the Torah were from after Moses?

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

nail on the head. Yes, Spinoza was deeply influenced by Ibn Ezra.

[@Hakajin]

Oh my God, I was thinking the whole video, this just sounds like a semantic argument: I could call myself a theist or an atheist, but I go with the former because I think "atheist" tends to be associated with strict materialist monism, where as I come from the perspective of... Panpsychism! Although I don't know how "early" I would call Spinoza's thought, considering that versions of what we today would call panpsychism go at least as far back as the ancient Greeks. Although perhaps it's fair to say it was the first systematic treatment? In any case, it makes perfect sense that this kind of thought gets called both theistic and atheistic: it's relational. A fundamentalist Christian may think of it more like atheism in comparison to their own mindset, while to the atheist, it's theist. Neither are wrong, they're just coming from different understandings of what we mean by "God." In a sense, I think the word "God" is unhelpful, because so many have been traumatized in its name.

[@chendaforest]

I think Plotinus was one the first panpsychist in the west?

[@ONEEileenColts]

Those who are most exiled from the confines of current thought and belief are the most free. And they probably become the most intelligent.

[@jestermoon]

Take A Moment 2:45 Relax and Enjoy the genius at play 2:57 Is anyone else here because of Christoph Hitchens? Stay Safe Stay Free

[@gg3675]

I've not read Spinoza but I have suffered through some Hegel, who was obviously inspired by him (and at the very least is a systemic idealist). Rather than Kabbalah, my view is that this conception of God borrows from Ibn Rushd, who was influential in Europe in his own right and particularly inspirational to Jews via Maimonides. If I'm on the right track there, conflation of God with nature itself would be imprecise. At least for Hegel, even in the broadest metaphysical sense nature is still subsumed by the ultimate absolute reality.

[@mschell8022]

Well put!

[@davidscott4919]

Can you tell me how to get? How to get to Pantheism Street?

[@lepidoptera9337]

Spinoza couldn't afford to be a hard atheist. The people of his time didn't look gently on those folks and he wasn't rich enough not to care. Free choice of religion didn't exist in Spinoza's world, yet. To look at it any other way is to be completely blind to historical reality.

[@christophmahler]

Fine introduction, approaching from 'a _dualism_ of science and religion'. But if *'immanence'* were the radical novum with Spinoza, the reception of *Aristotle* in the West as late as the 13th century would never have existed. In fact, the very genre of theological literature, conceived as 'textbooks for mathematics', preceeds 'Aristotelian Christianity' - as e.g. Alain de Lille's *'Theologicæ Regulæ'* . Raymond of Sabunde wrote a century later the *'Theologia Naturalis'* as a means to convert the 'scientifically' educated (medicine, mechanics, astronomy) Muslims of Moor Spain (see e.g. Ramon Llull's 'theological _schematics'_ ). I can still remember the disruption of intellectual habit to come from the cognitive _experience_ of Platonic 'universals' to Aquina's definition of 'man as a _composite_ of matter and form', ascribing the 'image of God', _recognizable_ in the _patterns_ of anthropology. Spinoza - despite being a Jew - didn't stand completely aside from these Iberian, 'Roman' traditions and as such was closer to *Christian Humanism* than he was to the 'Radical Enlightenment' that replaces to this day the politicized dogmas of the Roman See with it's secular, utopian 'social engineering'...

[@TheArtofEngineering]

It seems to this less than erudite seeker of truth, that deep ideas are often discovered or understood through examination of secondary texts and discourse and like you contend a “Chinese whispers” distortion of meaning takes place. These explicators of complex ideas, try to connect complex original thought with things they know and the meaning shifts. Later on these complex ideas, via the permission gained from this aforementioned shift of meaning are used as nourishment for the expression of beliefs that align with the mores of the time. My question is probably obtuse and naive and is this: Is this meaning shift a deleterious thing, or is it just the nature of genuine philosophical discussion?

[@jestermoon]

15 minutes in, and I find out that like Spinoza, I, too, am a yewish atheist. I feel better now. No god's seen or heard in my foxhole for 46yrs. An RAF veteran of 28yrs No gods, only white noise 24:27