That "catching ppl off guard" comment cements it as the Ace being mad they got jumpscared by Bubba LMAO
@Patricia.Parker4 күн бұрын
Ace's logic: Dead hard : You don't get downed when you were supposed to. Distortion : You don't get your aura revealed when it was supposed to. DS : You don't get hooked when you were supposed to Off the record: You don't make sounds or get your aura revealed AND don't get downed when you were supposed to. It can be applied to whatever perks in the game.... Make it make sense.
@Nightbane104Ай бұрын
Imagin if Spooks was like "Sprint burst gets you distance you should not have normally so you deserve to go down", or "Empathy gives you the ability to see injured survivors you should not have so you should not get the heal or info" like wtf was that guy even talking about
@gabriellefАй бұрын
THISSS!!
@VBSuperАй бұрын
Who knows what goes on with a crazy person?
@Nightbane104Ай бұрын
@7arakinHTG Well I'm not 100% sure about that... at very least killer perks.
@DrEdge-jn2trАй бұрын
"You didn't even score 30k bloodpoints with a 4k" Lol yea that's what happens when the survivor team flops so easily that the killer doesn't really need to do much.
@roflmowsАй бұрын
hey man, say what i say: "cool, you wanna rematch in a custom game?" "u wuld stend 0 chance i wold do 5 gen and 0 downs lul" "ok cool, let's go do it. i'll even play 0 perks, and you can pick the map." "i have time no for that lul u will wold have lose" losers. all they do is talk shit. 0 game, 0 skills, just a lot of shit talking because they suck and they know it.
@xavierculbyАй бұрын
@@roflmowscringe lol
@EvaloraАй бұрын
huh, first time i've heard someone use the term 'flop' in regards to dbd play, thought it was only an identity v type deal but ye they did flop p hard
@666AvskyАй бұрын
@@Evalora you know flop is a word exist in vocabulary right? idv did not invent it lol
@EvaloraАй бұрын
@@666Avsky and yet after being in dbd's yt comments, forums and postmatches on and off since 2019, i hadn't seen the term used once in reference to in-game occurrences until i saw this comment, while on identity v i've seen it consistently used for the 1.5 years i've been playing it now, how about that? take a hike
@t_gabiuel6058Ай бұрын
"you got downs when you weren't supposed to" It's called getting perk value, just like you did with sprint burst. But nobody says "you got escapes that you weren't supposed to because of exhaustion perks".
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
@BasicallyBasic990 just out of curiosity, what perks do you think have no counter? I honestly can't really think of one except maybe Sprint Burst or Merciless Storm, but Merciless Storm can be countered by not sitting on your phone while doing gens and being decent at skill checks and Sprint Burst can only be used while not exhausted so...
@Iamkeev25 күн бұрын
@@Azarath415 theres tons of perks that messes with survivors exhaustion
@Patricia.Parker4 күн бұрын
@@Azarath415 You can also counter sprint burst with increased lunge attack by 'Coup the grace' or 'All-shaking thunder'. Aswell as with perks that cause exhaustion as you said, 'Languid touch', 'Genetic Limits' or 'Mindbreaker'
@yokusai593Ай бұрын
Imagine if it was the old Tinkerer too. Back when it didn't have the single activation limit.
@spiritupgradesАй бұрын
I blame Scott John for the nerfing of that
@UndyingZombieАй бұрын
By old do you mean original or the previous version of Tinkerer? Asking since the original improved addons. ( Decent amount too, you should see the original Insta saw and Huntress machinegun build.. I have to say Huntress specifically since there was another machinegun build that was more infamous than hers for a while. )
@spiritupgradesАй бұрын
@@UndyingZombie if you got to 70% on a gen and then kick a gen then it got back to 70% again it would trigger again
@UndyingZombieАй бұрын
@@spiritupgrades So basically the previous version, I remember it. Something that was not quite as big of a nightmare for balance as the original was but still had issues.
@spiritupgradesАй бұрын
@UndyingZombie I'm aware of it Insta Billy was not fun Billy
@Somalia2005Ай бұрын
Survivors try not to complain about anything killer does including moving and killing (impossible)
@Antbrat4.0Ай бұрын
Killers also do that
@seeableninja4199Ай бұрын
@@Antbrat4.0 bet
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
Including opening the game
@Tory-JJАй бұрын
@@Antbrat4.0name 10.
@oreopierrot1582Ай бұрын
Draw the deck or "be a survivor main and not complain about the killer" Survivor: [has the deck while looking you in the eyes]
@Al4nn456Ай бұрын
Bring meta: killer is trash Bring no meta: killer is trash Bring chase perks: killer is trash Bring gen defense perks: killer is trash Bring stealth perks: killer is trash These survivors can't be real persons 😭🙏
@gabriellefАй бұрын
Most of us survivor mains don’t claim them 😫
@VBSuperАй бұрын
Paid actors, maybe? 😅
@metalheadjake3339Ай бұрын
@@gabriellef Most... Most survivor mains are absolute annoying a holes who wait at the gate at the last second because got to get that last laugh TBag in. Also I go look at any DBD social media comment section and it's filled with survivor mains begging for every perk and killer to be nerfed. Like every single one. It's ridiculous I rarely ever see a survivor main who isn't a complete douche but when I do and they are the last one left. I let them go free and goof around but most act like the ace in the video. I'd say it's a tiny number of survivor mains who are decent And hey, Im not playing sides either. Most killer mains also act like Salty jerks and it's rare to encounter a killer main who respects good plays by survivors and is nice in post game chat. Most people on the DBD community are just insufferable blowhards. Killer and survivor.
@Buzzkilljoy1248Ай бұрын
As someone who runs exclusively Adept builds on both Killer and Survivor, this is way too accurate lmao
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
I think I've heard somewhere that even bringing less than 4 or absolutely no perks at all is considered trash too I guess
@cupidbirdsАй бұрын
as an ace main i’m sorry on their behalf
@Idk-bg5tzАй бұрын
Hey I’ve seen you on Pinterest
@Antbrat4.0Ай бұрын
Ace mains are awesome
@meme_alertrealАй бұрын
spooks is also an ace main!!
@smileyace2954Ай бұрын
As an ace main too I say he is a disgrace to our species
@سعد-ع6قАй бұрын
Why you are so toxic
@AscendedPhoenixАй бұрын
2:50 “In the dense heart of the rainforest, a curious sound echoes through the humid air It is the unmistakable mating call of the killer main. Each note is a promise, a declaration of strength and vitality. And if successful, his song will draw a curious survivor from the shadows, continuing a dance as old as the forest itself.”
@crazedspongeАй бұрын
Ace's Logic: You can time sprint burst and not swing Logic: You can be aware of your surroundings and not get caught off guard.
@that80ssongyoulove84Ай бұрын
Man, the people that review player reporting probably hate the whole DBD community.
@_piranhaАй бұрын
I mean i wouldn't be surprised if the entire dev team hate the community. All they do is complain and say they should be out of a job lmao
@CoOlKyUbI96Ай бұрын
That’s assuming that a person actually reviews the reports
@jacobwright8652Ай бұрын
Survivors when killers use perks and kill
@Markptaz450Ай бұрын
I had a ttv rage at me once using Tinkerer on Doctor on the Asylum match
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
Léry's?
@Markptaz450Ай бұрын
@Azarath415 Crotus Penn asylum
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
@@Markptaz450ah ok
@ScientificallyImprobableАй бұрын
I had a ttv rage at me for running distressing, hex: thrill (before the buff), beast of prey, and jolt
@TaylorcorbisieroАй бұрын
Ttvs always message at the end I find it hilarious
@CrazyKevin1231Ай бұрын
I got reported for cheating as Ghostface, apparently my power cooldown was too short or something. I found it rathar flattering since Ghostface is my main.
@godfrey4461Ай бұрын
Runnin Philly and knowing when to exit your power manually is key
@Ace_NoldАй бұрын
people have brain rot, they need to like chillax since its a game.
@FatalDyZrАй бұрын
You know you’re doing something right once they start accusing you of cheating, definitely a compliment if you ask me.
@SillyFluffyGuyАй бұрын
You're just better.
@Spectral_PNTАй бұрын
I also once got called trash as Ghostface by like a rank 1 survivor who died to me (and I think I did win the match tbh) but he's like telling me I'm not using my power (Marking, I was more of a stabby ghostie than a marker one) and its like "You just lost to a killer who didn't even use his power to insta down" I think they went quiet after that lol
@gabriellefАй бұрын
I have no clue why survivors get so mad. I’m a survivor main… if I get facecamped, hit on hook or even tunneled I say GG and move onto the next game. Edit to add for any new survs: once you realize the killer has tinkerer, just leave the gen when you trigger it lol
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
Fun addon to the edit: you'll know you've activated the perk once you hit roughly 70% of the generator. Hide behind any rocks or nearby tiles
@FgyjtIngenieroEuropeo10 күн бұрын
Let me explain the problem: Survivors got tons of diferent killers to fight against every single game, they change everytime. Sadly, killers do not get that much variety. Is always a survivor or a whole 4 man group with meta perks or something wrong. That builds fatigue for the killers, and ego for the survivors.
@DeusMechanikusАй бұрын
"Something exist in DBD = Time to rage and salt" - most accurate DBD lore ever :)
@Dg_Gaming_YT887Ай бұрын
At least we got to see Bubba Claus.
@milovelycutieАй бұрын
Every time I watch Spooks saying something like "I just got outplayed..." or "im so ass" im like bro you play one controller, I could never do that holy shit xD Respect
@Isaberry1602Ай бұрын
As for playing Bubba I feel like Iron Maiden and Bamboozle are an absolute must and consider them to be a core of any build for that particular killer. But the number of times I seen people lose their minds over this perks are truly extreme ^^
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
As someone who used to play Bubba, I can confirm even tho I never used Bambam lolz. Iron Maiden really throws off survivors and I find it interesting to just purposely run into a locker and see if the survivors know the timing. Either way, they're dead lolz
@MeosychsАй бұрын
That ace player must have found out his wife was leaving him because the hill he tried to die on was so small that an ant would find it tiny.
@allu9838 күн бұрын
This is one of the funniest things I've ever read, thank you.
@t_gabiuel6058Ай бұрын
I love when people type "LOL" to pretend they aren't mad and are just having a laugh but we all know they are fuming behind their screens.
@garrettroller1924Ай бұрын
I had an anonymous Ace just today call me a noob lol. I was playing a friendly game as Nemisis and had killed two bots because they DCd, and then spent the rest of the game just messing around and letting them escape. I had two hooked them both at this point. The Ace then called me a noob after the game because I couldn’t “find” him (I wasn’t even looking for him) and that he hid too well. He actually just barely made it out last second after he was downed by a zombie lol. Either way he told me he’d see me in hell. I just laughed at him in chat and he didn’t like that very much.
@brad1426Ай бұрын
“I can tell 100% without tinkerer you’re nothing” Statements spoken by the insecure lmao
@spacewalker98Ай бұрын
I had to look up what Tinkerer does. i thought it would be on the likes of deadhard and something along those lines. Whenever a Generator is repaired to 70 %, you benefit from the following effects: Triggers a Loud Noise Notification for that Generator, revealing its location. Grants the Undetectable Status Effect for the next 12/14/16 seconds. the fact that ace was mad the generators made a noise, and youre undetectable for AT MOST 1 MIN the entire match is crazy this is why i will never play DBD and just watch content of it i couldnt ever see myself being that mad at pixels especially as something as meaningless as tinkerer nor would i want my teamates to act that way
@GnarkkotikАй бұрын
So…you don’t play yet you have an input? I’d understand if you knew the game well but you don’t even know tinkerer? Old tinkerer was cracked. They nerfed it cause of the gen kick meta that was going on. But tinkerer is not as strong as deadhard in any regard.
@spacewalker98Ай бұрын
Hey man I just don’t know what tinkerer was I read about it in past versions when I pasted the description that was my point is that the ace was acting like it was as bad as killers say dead hard is, that was all sorry I felt like I could comment on a KZbin video
@GnarkkotikАй бұрын
@ cmon now I never said you couldn’t comment don’t do that lol. My point is you are saying “I would never this or that” “this is useless(talking about tinkerer)” and commenting on strength of a perk when you never play the game(I have viewers who have never played either not saying you have to but they at least know most of the perks and such from watching) on top of not knowing such a known common perk like tinkerer. I agree with the take that ace was delusional and your comment is correct that it’s nowhere near as strong as DH but then you killed credibility with saying “I never play dbd” should’ve just left it out is my point.
@iupobur4235Ай бұрын
@Gnarkkotik_TTV my guy chillax. It's literally not that deep. And you practically did say he can't have a say. There's no need for this kinda behavior.
@KitsBasementАй бұрын
7:12 has me dyi... dialing up my grandma and saying hello lmaoooooooooooooo
@KitsBasementАй бұрын
"you can time sprint burst" alright buddy I'll wait with swinging til you're at shack how does that sound.
@HeyItsStephxАй бұрын
Imagine if you had noed, Aces head would implode
@VBSuperАй бұрын
Tinkerer and Noed? Someone call the FBI on Spooks. 😂😂😂
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
I bet it would be funnier if Ace had a second chance perk like Adrenaline while Spooks had NOED because Ace would probably be crying about a second chance perk while also running a second chance perk
@thatoneominousgameguyАй бұрын
The way that ace types i imagine he has a snot bubble and tears streaming down his face lile the sniveling child he is lmao
@babalonkieАй бұрын
Imagine moaning about Tinkerer... and AFTER it's nerf too lol
@H3artlessC21 күн бұрын
Hey, I have that same Micheal cut out, anyways keep up the great work man, love the vids
@ZoedgeBlockАй бұрын
6:05 for the chatter, that cosmetic is called Tousled Lowlights, it comes free as part of Laurie's alternate outfit with the Halloween DLC.
@AlaskanGuyАй бұрын
Never seen anyone cry over Tinkerer before, lmao. I love and hate going against it because it startles me, but I'm not gonna cry about it.
@The_New_CrisisTTVАй бұрын
Aint no way the Ace thought that was your Main Bubba Build lmao that's crazy
@NicoManleyАй бұрын
When the undetectable build works properly:
@CaptToiletАй бұрын
Survivor brains being survivor brains
@Pocket_SoraАй бұрын
People are so weird in this game's community. I went against a Bubba who was also a streamer and when I went to go check them out, found out that he reported me and my three teammates for supposedly DDOSing him (what really happened was that DBD's server crapped out and kicked us all out). He did not believe any of us when we said "no, it's the server and we got kicked too".
@SilentlyFallingАй бұрын
Damn Spooks, that was a really good Meta-Knight impression
@CuwutBunnieАй бұрын
You threatening to vomit was not what i was expecting 😭
@Blood_War07Ай бұрын
tinkerer op is hilarious
@SlimGekkoАй бұрын
Watching this right after EU christmas, is the best gift you could've asked for. Thanks for an awesome video Jukes!
@failiahtheXАй бұрын
All I could think was captain America saying "take that off, what are you?"
@CorpseQueen32Ай бұрын
Bro the costume change jumpscared me
@Auto..Payge.Ай бұрын
I just saw a video of a rager who was upset the killer didn’t play nice in event mode .. I myself had a rager BECAUSE I was being nice in event mode. This should tell us everything.
@mikefisher4051Ай бұрын
That first one is insanely relatable, Every single time I have been whined at by sore losers OR winners, they act like I literally only play that killer and build, who the fuck is that boring? Let alone the assumption that every person playing killler only plays killer that seems to come out of their mouths reliably as well.
@mojo1176Ай бұрын
Reminds me of the time I got called toxic for using " Forced Hesitation "
@AveryHyenaАй бұрын
Survivor doesn't whine and complain in chat, then says the killer is crying challenge: impossible
@Benjo_Ай бұрын
7:11 lmao grandma will be so happy
@VBSuperАй бұрын
News flash: Tinkerer becomes the new NOED. Is that Ace high on something? Tinkerer is good but it won't do any good if the killer doesn't use it the right way. And besides, I'm sure survivors have eyes, right? That guy probably complains about Ghostfaces, mirror Myers, Pigs, Wraiths, etc, etc. Because they're stealthy. Me, I like a good Tinkerer. Sure, my heart might not survive it, but hey, it's DBD life.
@J_lady32Ай бұрын
That ending 😂 Santa Bubba looks fantastic. I don't know why they were scared of you. 😢
@Lethia277Ай бұрын
That’s crazy I never thought I’d see someone complain about tinkerer 😂
@ninjasign2009Ай бұрын
I have been running Machine Learning on a Snowball Bubba build, haven't had much salt but did one one survivor praise me for getting crazy value from the perk after scaring him and his friends
@kittsmeh6138Ай бұрын
its funny because he says u were catching ppl off guard, when the best counter to tinker is being aware of ur surroundings and not just staring at gen lol
@sapphirethealpha5005Ай бұрын
Potential Energy is also fun to counter tinkerer with (:
@n3wb1shnessАй бұрын
This game has an endless supply of salt! I even get salt from survivors who escape!
@SeeNogDBDYTАй бұрын
Loving the positive grandma talk ❤😂
@vibrantoucan8890Ай бұрын
People complain about the weirdest thing. Recently had a Survivor claim I was lagswitching because they were lagging, as if killer was still host.
@MuunRabpit13Ай бұрын
Isn't the point of Tinkerer literally "To catch survivors off guard by hiding the heartbeat and TR"?
@grimreaper8575Ай бұрын
Ace must be as observant as a mole to be THAT upset at a stealth perk.
@jameysotelo540Ай бұрын
Honestly survivors will never cease to surprise me with there endless complaints and deflections. I saw the other day, someone took a screenshot of there endgame chat, and someone was complaining about the fact the killer was using predator, one of the worst killer perks in the entire game, and they were salty over it.
@Wicedrissa1237Ай бұрын
Happy holidays! From one NFL Vikings watcher to another!
@keys5595Ай бұрын
I remember playing against a survivor that thought I was cheating because I could see their aura with “No where to hide”. Even when I tried to explain the perk they insisted that I was cheating and the perk doesn’t do that lmao.
@bigstepsАй бұрын
Long time KZbin viewer here, I followed you on Twitch hopefully you can make your goal before the new year!!
@WattiwaАй бұрын
The crazy thing to me is the ace saying SB is so easy to counter and he should be thanked for not running other exhaustion perks. Like, bro, SB is the only exhaustion perk without any real counterplay, it just works. It’s not the strongest, but there isn’t any real counterplay to it, you press button at any time, and then you get free value. It’s more or less the least skill based exhaustion perk while still getting guaranteed value, even if it’s not the most value
@WattiwaАй бұрын
Also, I think I’ve had someone complain about tinkerer once when I did Billy adept, it may have been an ace but it was a bit ago so my already poor memory fails me
@ScientificallyImprobableАй бұрын
Calling a perk “crutch” that can be countered by looking at your screen with your eyes is *wild*
@crunchycakegaming1507Ай бұрын
the ace acts like SB isn’t a meta perk and that it doesn’t have much more use than baiting the killer to swing and can’t be used to straight up negate a hit from being out of position
@Pink-ComputerАй бұрын
"You got downs you weren't supposed to by catching people off guard. You didn't earn those downs." First of all, there's no such thing as "getting downs you weren't supposed to ". Killers are supposed to kill the survivors, doesn't matter how they do it. Second, I'd argue that downs on people who were caught off guard are more deserved. If you're not paying attention to your surroundings and you get caught with your pants down, that is a skill issue on your end, not the killer.
@Dr_ShelboАй бұрын
the ending of this video is so good
@joshuasoule2612Ай бұрын
Already subbed to twitch and here, you’ll get a like for Christmas spooks hope you enjoy that
@TsumiurАй бұрын
Spinning around that pole like a professional
@mrpilhasАй бұрын
"sTeaLtH iS NOt fAiR" runs fixated
@StagFiestaАй бұрын
"How DAAAAAAAAAAAARE you use a game mechanic?!?!?!" basically
@darththeoАй бұрын
People complaining about Tinkerer now? A perk you at most get 7 proxs on, and there is no guarantee all the proxs you get are useful?
@emperor_putenskiyАй бұрын
Jeez, this Ace is nuts. He should take a break from the game
@GrimmWFАй бұрын
same logic as him but about his perks "no sprint burst = no looping for you" "you" "got chase time" "u werent supposed to" "by running fast" "those werent loops u earned"
@ryanlutes9833Ай бұрын
Sprint burst players when they can't activate it at the start of every single chase:
@derekbrown5420Ай бұрын
I hope that Ace sees this video. It's wild that he thinks this is your only build.
@swiftbristleАй бұрын
I just got DbD about 3 days ago and actually found it by accident lol. I was looking up deeper breakdowns of killer abilities then saw something about toxic streamers on DbD and had to click. I also never realized this community is this bad. And I thought the Smash Bros community was bad lmao. Anyways I love your videos, I've learned way more about different builds than I would've by myself, and I just found out how to do missions in the winter game mode thing XD Subbed! x3
@dbdstuffАй бұрын
Happy holidays yall
@xyexАй бұрын
Not surprised you got salt over Tinkerer, lol. I got some too, a while back. This was pre-nerf. Was playing Oni on Larry's. Every time a gen got close Tinkerer would proc, I would pop power, and race over to down people. Got a 4k at 4 gens. Was up against 3 ttvs and I watched their vod after. They spent the entire match complaining about how OP Tinkerer was.
@xoselhketАй бұрын
Being away from the DBD community and coming back, the toxicity really stands out. I was talking about how I played Oreo in the PTB (the last one I ever participated in) and how bad her hitbox hit is, like if you miss with Oreo you miss and she is the only killer that does this and I said she sucked. LITERALLY, had the killer from the game I just had playing Oreo tell me I was being a D*CK! LMAOOO! I wasn't even talking about their gameplay! DBD is full of sooks.
@chrissabo9160Ай бұрын
I would just like to point out that technically using comms as a swf could be considered cheating since voice chat isn't an in-game feature. You have to use something purposely not put in the game, which then gives info that you would otherwise not have. Now that being said, do I call it cheating? No. It's just something that all of the salt makes me think about at times.
@geminisrojo544926 күн бұрын
love your videos bro cheers!
@EthanFilmsYT86Ай бұрын
If it's the old tinkerer maybe he could argue like that , bro that perk only work once per gen 😂😂
@Unelson23Ай бұрын
Can we appreciate this build. What a great build for bubba
@BenjiOkayАй бұрын
This is a new one for sure. Never thought I'd hear someone get upset for someone running Tinkerer, and say they should've ran 4 slowdowns. If a survivor can complain about this is it possible one could complain about something like Whispers?
@neochrysallis6948Ай бұрын
I may not agree with a lot of stuff SpooknJukes says, but this is funny as hell XD. I've NEVER seen a survivor mald so hard over Tinkerer XD
@EgirlSpittАй бұрын
DbdTWT: *trying to cancel Jukes rn* Jukes: salt of the week eat up kiddos
@BrianRocksNowАй бұрын
Ace arguing with a Bubba named dingleberry. Dbd for ya.
@L9_and_1278_othersАй бұрын
Wait until Mike Litoris hears about this
@CrazyGreenWitchАй бұрын
got that side eye when the blast mine went off lol
@gabriellefАй бұрын
Also happy holidays everybody!
@downbelow_scares9609Ай бұрын
average ace main unironically
@Azarath415Ай бұрын
15:24 "SB is legit the most predictable/ez counter" So is Tinkerer. If you know the killer has it, then activate it and hide for a bit. It can only activate once per gen.
@bdoglvlАй бұрын
I don't think this ace understands how the game works
@RunawayQueenTTVАй бұрын
I played Doctor yesterday for the first time in months, survivors took me to the game and i won it...they didnt like it so they decided to tell me I only won because I was exploiting a bug. Again, first time i played Doctor in months so I had no idea there was a bug. Survivors will complain and blame everything for their own mistakes.
@sammoore5864Ай бұрын
Someone said they going to report me cause I was the clown cause they trying to fuckin taunt from exit gate (why fuck do people that..) and I downed them and hooked them. And just to watch die cause everybody else' was gone 🤷♀️
@OneIncherPincherАй бұрын
It's crazy how this dude has a wife and kids and he looks 23
@ShogunMSАй бұрын
As a killer main who mains ace when playing as survivor, that ace has no chill
@Shady-FrankАй бұрын
Love the videos even though I stopped playing a while ago.
@DragoUzuАй бұрын
I think she thought you were cheating when it came to the locker, instantly finding them lol
@fluidwolfАй бұрын
How dare you use a perk to your advantage good sir. The idea that you don't deserve the win because a perk helped get there is just goofy. It's the literal point. Even if you for some reason needed it to win....so what? That's the point in having it and you won. Whether you could have won without it is legitimately irrelevant because 99% of the playerbase aren't playing perkless to begin with.