Spotter's Guide - how to buy a Seiko 6139-6005 True Pogue - what is and isn't a "Pogue"

[@Antiqueexcavator]

I just won a 1977 6139-6005 blue “pogue” at auction. Although not a true pogue I love it and can’t wait to service and wear it! That’s for the education! It’s one of the things I love about watch collecting. I’m a naturally very mechanic ally inclined and recently was lucky enough to find a complete watchmakers desk loaded with high end tools (Bergeron, etc). I’ve been watching a lot of videos and really getting a knack at repair. It will definitely be my hobby when I finally retire in a few years! Well, that’s my plan. Of course, “men plan, god laughs!” So you never know. My grandma used to say that in Yiddish when I was a young boy. I now have it tattooed on my back. Anyway, love your stuff!

[@paulwright7239]

Okay so mine has 6139-6005 stamped on the back, and every other attribute cited of a "Pogue" except the face text indicating resistance depth (which is stamped onto the back). I'm having it restored, wearing it proudly and calling it a "Pogue".

[@peter-pg5yc]

had mine since high school still have owners manuel and sales receipt 88 dollars.. it still works.

[@drticzon]

My Seiko is not a true Pogue since it is missing water resistance on the face. It has the English and Spanish dial. It was manufactured in December 1975. My parents gave it to me in June 1976 for a 8th grade graduation gift. I worn the watch ever since up to the first 20 years of my dental practice (I’m a dentist) The last 10 years I started using a Citizen Eco drive H145 and a 1st gen AppleWatch. I pulled out my Seiko and wearing it again (stored in the original Seiko box). Thank you for all your videos.

[@gtpkent]

Thanks for the video. I recently found someone to work on mine (March 72) and can't wait to get it back... Belonged to my father who died 30+ years ago so it's got insane history on both global and personal levels. You're video is helping me to understand what a gem it is to the world and not just me.

[@davidiglesiasgomez7616]

I´m also from March´72 and I only found one 3/72 Pogue in Australia (I live in Germany) and it was in not so good conditions... Lucky you then! Congrats!

[@davidiglesiasgomez7616]

(sorry, now I read that belong to your father) Sorry for your loss...

[@rhinowatches9738]

Im from December of 73 And I got lucky to get a October 73 Pogue !

[@mprime6807]

My father just gave me his non- working 6139 (December '71) that he purchased new. It's in worse shape than Pogue's actual watch after being worn for 4 decades. Had it fixed, but left it's appearance as-is. It just tells so many stories with its patina.

[@peter-pg5yc]

seiko has a service center

[@cmb1972]

From what I have read online, Colonel Pogue sneaked his Seiko on board as he preferred it over the Issued Omega for timing engine burns, I love them too, I have four yellow, two silver and two blue "Pogues" , my favourite has to be the silver dialed ones.

[@Sssthpok]

if it's any other 6139 dial colour than gold, it's not actually a 'Pogue' just sayin'.

[@alastairwatson3201]

Yeah, I get what you’re saying but I’m happy with my yellow faced, suwa symbol bearing, non-“resist” dial version. I could’ve instead bought a Pepsi coloured example - available at the same time - but it’s all about that amazing yellow for me. It’s changed my entire relationship with Seiko; my appreciation has skyrocketed with the beauty of this watch.

[@josephp2712]

I've loved watches since I was a kid looking at my dads old times diver, your videos have made me love them even more especially my seikos

[@xjsteve]

Thanks for sharing your expertise on these vintage 6139 Seiko's Spencer, this is truly informative. I always considered my July '71 6139-6002 'Resist' text dial to be a true Pogue but I guess it's not due to lacking the 17J but having the Chronograph Automatic text. It's the actual watch TGV features in his video after lending it to him for the review. You live and learn!

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

This video is mostly to just clear up what actual subvariant he wore, because people are paying a lot of money for a "Pogue" and they might not be getting what they think they're getting, if they're looking for the correct model. But really I think having a "True Pogue" really only matters to guys who are looking specifically for that, for whatever reason. One model isn't better than another. They're all great. I personally don't wear anything but black dialed watches for the most part. I haven't worn a Pogue, any Pogue be it a "true" one or not, in years. Wear what you love.

[@mprime6807]

@xjsteve I have the same watch that you just mentioned. December '71. Was a little surprised to see the differences, too.

[@GX9SP]

Thank you so much! I know we talked at length about my blunder, and how much I've appreciated your help, but this is pure excellence!

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

You're going to have to fill me in on which blunder this is. Whatever blunder you've made, I've made many more when it comes to watches, trust me.

[@GX9SP]

I emailed you about a suspicious 6139-6002 that turned out to be a rework. I apologize, I forgot that my KZbin name and Google email name differ-- I'm Jonathan.

[@stevegrant8797]

My comment might go unseen as this is a very old YT but here goes anyway. I have a 6139-6005 and I'm in the UK. I got this from a watch shop owner who took it in the day before my dropping in on him. I am assuming the reason it's a 6005 is because as we are just a few miles from Upper Heyford I guess it was here from near new and owned by a USAF guy. It must have stayed on UK soil for whatever reason. It's in nice condition and still has strong yellow to the dial ring, serviced but with a new crystal though and the serial is also September 71, I wonder what Pogue's actual number was and how far from it mine might be.

[@fivedogsranch9288]

At 8:05 you lay both watches on the table. Yours, on left has a different bracelet and the other, on right has the correct bracelet. Mine is a serial 121***. All original. I’d like to send it in to Seiko for service, but I’m afraid they’ll open it and loose or break something. Especially after they’ve already said they do not have parts for these watches and will not use non Seiko parts. It runs and keeps time perfectly, the only issue is the setting and crown functions feel a little “gummy.” Thanks for the post.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

You are very welcome!

[@paulseoighemcgee5772]

Great advice , thanks !

[@jsnyder0512]

I remember back in 2007 when the Story of the Pogue broke on SCWF. It was very exciting while we waited for him to respond and watching it play out.

[@samd.5203]

Great video but I still love my non-true pogue 6139-6002. Great work and please keep the great videos coming.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

No reason not to love it. I own many many more non-Pogues than I do true Pogues (now or ever). I personally prefer non-Pogues, either later no-text gold dials, or more so the blue dials. I really only wear dark dials, no colors. I can't personally remember the last time I wore a gold-dialed one. I mean, I've never made time to restore my own Pogue since I know I won't really ever wear it.

[@pault8470]

I've just purchased the Seiko Alpanist . Superb watch

[@mr_glasses]

I think what many seem to confuse is the difference between a true Pogue and a genuine 6139 600X. There were other variations of the dial released at different times and for different regions etc. They are authentic/genuine Seiko, just not Pogues. Thanks for the video though. I'm late to the party but I'm gradually learning the differences.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

"There were other variations of the dial released at different times and for different regions etc". Yes, that's the thing. A "true Pogue" is a 6139-6005, "Resist", made between February 1971 and April 1972, for the N. American market. There were other variations released in different places & times, yes, as that's a Seiko thing.

[@andreasthoms5350]

The Speedmaster has changed in details too , but it is still the moonwatch , so is the Pogue.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

Well yes - for a given value of “Pogue” all 6139-600x’s are Pogues. A true Pogue is a 6139-6005 “Resist” made between March 1971 and April 1972.

[@KayvanKhiabani]

A very well done video. Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify this matter. Mr. Klein, I understand that you lovingly restore these and other vintage Seiko timepieces however, I was wondering if you also offer serviced vintage Seiko for sale? I truly appreciate buying from a well regarded and reliable source such as yourself.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

Thank you! I rarely sell, only because I rarely have time to restore a watch for sale. I've got close to a year's worth of customer work built up. I can sometimes find time in the evenings or weekends, but we also have three small children here, so I don't like to take time away from my family. Was there something specific you were looking for?

[@KayvanKhiabani]

I am looking for a real Pogue and a brown bullhead mostly. Am open to all other great examples of vintage Seiko chronographs or divers.

[@oscargustavoarcosruiz8793]

The brown bullhead is one of my favorites Seikos, I think it looks beautiful.

[@mr.smitty4359]

Great video Spencer as usual extremely informational....

[@jsnyder0512]

Pouge! I finally got it right. Great video.

[@georgealvarez8535]

Great video! I have a 6139 a gift from my father it's working fine but I would like to have it serviced so I looked on line and the seiko factory dealer says they no longer have the rubber seals for buttons is this correct? Any suggestions or advice for service?

[@mohdnoorazmanyahya1790]

Isn't the original that he wore at that time was 6139-6002 model? I read somewhere related to the history of the Pogue

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

No, it wasn't. Urban Gentry put out a video with that incorrect information, and I've been working consistently to correct it. Here's a video about the True Pogue: kzbin.info/www/bejne/paO9ioNthJamldk

[@patricknaswell2686]

Just bought a 6139.is the only way to wind it the “Seiko shuffle”?

[@bmassche]

nice and informative. got my eye on an estate auction right now for a 6139-6005 plain dial. hope i win it!

[@gregorypincelli2480]

I have just found 6005 with serial “10...” so October 1971. But it has the word chronograph under the seiko on the dial. It also does not have 17J above the Suwa symbol. But does have the water70resist text. What do you think?

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

You have a replacement dial or a swapped-out caseback. What's the dial code?

[@georgealvarez8535]

Where can I have my 6139 serviced? When I go from air-conditioning to outdoors crystal fogs up

[@NapoleonGelignite]

6 thousand dollars for a flown iconic space watch - not that expensive!

[@jamescolbern4769]

Thank you very much for supplying much needed info regarding the specifics of what a "true Pogue" consists to you. One thing needs a little further clarification though. What specifically tells us a "true Pogue" is a 6005 ? I believe all pictures of his watch have been from the front, not the caseback. Thank you so much for further enlightening me, Best Regards.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

As I lay out in the video (and I specifically talk about not having a caseback shot) every single piece of evidence says "6139-6005". There isn't a single piece of evidence that says anything else. Dial is 6139-6005. Pogue bought his watch on U.S. Soil, in Texas, at Ellington AFB. Non-N. American models were never sold on U.S. soil as far as I have ever known, or heard about. If he'd bought it overseas, then the first thought would be that it was an overseas model, but he bought it here. The only N. American 6139-600x with a gold dial made in 1971 after February (remember, we have the serial number, which dates the watch to September 1971) was a 6139-6005. There is zero evidence to say it wasn't a 6139-6005, and every piece of evidence that it was. So, until something appears that says it wasn't, it was.

[@jamescolbern4769]

Spencer Klein Thank you so much for making it clear to all of us. I was speaking to a fellow enthusiast from the UK on the SCWF who felt more proof was needed, photographic proof it seemed. There is a current thread called "Pogue" where our exchange took place. As usual, you have been extremely helpful, again thank you for your clarification.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

Unless he can supply any evidence to contradict every piece that says 6139-6005, he's out of luck.

[@lonniehill7591]

I have a 6139-6005, serial # 221431. The bezel is still bright yellow. I bought it at the Hickam AFB BX in Honolulu, in about March, 1972, when I was a flight instructor at the Hickem--Wheeler Aero Club at Wheeler AFB. Is this watch considered to be a Pogue. It does say automatic, but no writing on the left. Bottom left it says Japan 6139, and bottom right a number -8009T.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

Lonnie Hill thanks for writing. I love hearing from original owners of these. It should have “Water 70m Resist” at 9. That was the case from serial 12xxxx through 24xxxx. If your dial is missing that, I’m wondering if your watch was serviced after you bought it? Could it be a service replacement dial?

[@lonniehill7591]

Spencer Klein, I have never had the watch serviced that I can remember. It always worked well. Also, I noticed below the serial number it says, Japan J. Would that had made a difference? I'm assuming with the "J" it was manufactured in Japan and not the US. I wore it till I got my first Seiko World Timer in 1978, of which I have 2, the original silver one and a later gold one with the raised crystal. The silver one does not work and I can't get parts. The gold one I wore until I retired from FedEx in 2014. I retired it also. I just did a little research and I found that sometime in 1972, they took the "Water 70M Resist" off and just kept the ""Water Resistant" on the back.

[@jednaistina9093]

@@lonniehill7591 did you get answer on this last mesage

[@hermanrivera3721]

I have a 6139-6005, yellow face, but the crown is missing. Anyone know where i can get it repaired?

[@juniorbullock838]

Very informative. thank you.

[@johnsanabria3279]

I would consider the Pogue nickname issue a matter of semantics.....I just received my 1st Seiko 6139 in the mail. It's a 6139 with a 6005 caseback,but the dial shows 6009. Which should I follow? It was built for the American market in August of 1973,but it has a plain,blue dial. I wouldn't have a problem if someone called it a "Pogue".

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

Dial codes and caseback info rarely if ever 100% match. The caseback case code (In your case 6005) talks about distribution area. The dial code talks about the dial, really.

[@johnsanabria3279]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch Thanks for replying to a 4+ year-old video.....so which should carry more weight--the caseback or the dial? I would think that the caseback would; otherwise my impression is that there was a dial change,though the watch looks to be all original.

[@johnsanabria3279]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch One other thing,if I might ask.....how is the watch wound if there is no way to hand wind?

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

Automatic only. It was a Seiko thing. And the caseback is what matters, and it is the dial that matters, the dial should be right for the caseback, but the numbers that matters are the caseback ones.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

@@johnsanabria3279 you wear it, simply put. You can wind it a bit by moving the watch back and forth sideways. You should be able to feel the weight moving. Get it rolling, then set the time all the way forward over the day/date change, then set it to the right time, then use the crown to set the day and date, and then wear it. The automatic winding system these use is quite efficient and with regular wear the watch will just keep going. It really will.

[@shannalog]

Hi, my 6139-6002 according to the database was made in May 1971, serial number 154xxx, it also says the movement started in 1969, does this mean this movement was already in production prior to the date you mention, February 1971, and was Pogues watch a 6005 not a 6002, regards.

[@josephp2712]

Why wouldn't they let him choose what watch he wore in space was it mandatory that they wore omega

[@mprime6807]

I'm sure NASA didn't want to risk timing engine burns, or other flight operations, with a watch they didn't certify themselves.

[@tomhilditch2328]

What about the French date ?

[@Kingstonsmac]

Would love to own one someday ! 🤤

[@phmwu7368]

First automatic chronograph in space ? Both Skylab-4 astronaut William Pogue (Seiko 6139) and astronaut Gerald Carr (Movado Datron) wore a personal automatic chronograph during that 84 days space station mission. So both the "Seiko Pogue" and the "Movado Carr" bear the title of first automatic chronograph in space... #MoonwatchUniverse

[@claytonscoble4271]

I have a "True Pogue" from August of `71, and weirdly, mine has "CHRONOGRAPH" and then "AUTOMATIC" under SEIKO on the face. Why the difference? I don't really care - but it's fun to research. If anybody can shed light on this - please do!

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

HI Clayton. So, Pogue's own watch was a 6139-6005. What you're describing is a 6139-6000 / -6001 / -6002. Close but not quite the same.

[@jaysterling26]

1:34 - the 'pogue' could've been called the 'comb-over' ..

[@garyuk761]

Well done

[@RetroworksMusic]

Good video, but you missed one detail.. a true faithfully pogue has to have a Spanish English date Ring

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

well, yes, but that's for a True Pogue - the correct 6139-6005 "Resist" made between February 1971 and April 1972. This is a post-Pogue, so I'm not worried about that. This watch was special to me because it was a one-owner watch, and came to me as you see it, so it is original to itself.

[@RetroworksMusic]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch..yep. Its really nice indeed and a very good example yours it's gorgeous... i've got the silver version in near nos condition and a more common good used black, but still not found a good true pogue yellow like yours

[@capecodcuda]

👍 enjoyed. watching ⌚

[@pat6124]

there is a pogue on ebay that needs work. My question is the serial # appears to be 1D5110 it is said to be a 1970 build, Is this right?

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

1D is December '71.

[@gardellapj]

Why does almost EVERYBODY (on-line anyway) identify Pogue's Seiko as a 6139-6002. This is incorrect, right? Almost all the yellow dialed 6139's I see on ebay or other sites are nearly "True Pogues" but with the addition of the word "Chronograph" below Seiko and before "Automatic". Is this version a different model? Thanks for any help.

[@mprime6807]

@Peter Gardella. My father bought his in Thailand in the early 70s and it has the "Chronograph" and 'Automatic" below the 12 mark. It was made December '71.

[@f2mel2]

What does he say at 5:55? "17 Jewel...(sounds like sumo)"

[@watchiologist8918]

Suwa

[@stevenuk]

so interesting..

[@stu281]

Awesome

[@charlesspidell1447]

It don’t have mm at 9 oclock

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

70 meters of depth resistance, not 70 millimeters.

[@thesuspectsdescriptionisva9345]

But there is only ONE watch that is HIS watch. HIS watch.

[@snacklofter]

👍👍

[@abrahamgalloway5163]

still not a true pogue...very very close, but not a spanish date wheel

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

What? This watch has English / Spanish, which is correct. Pogue's own had English / Spanish. That is the default daywheel for the 6139-6005. The next most common one would be English / French, but I have never seen a true Pogue with that combo.

[@abrahamgalloway5163]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch good to know, just noticed his was in spanish, didnt know it was a combo, looking at getting one myself

[@raleighgeddings1435]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch The date wheel shown is from a 6139A 17J movement LUN 28. 6139B date wheel doesnt quite line up

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

@@raleighgeddings1435 The A and B datewheels are identical. Ditto for the daywheels. There is no difference between them.

[@rwatson3726]

I don't see the writing at 9 like you say

[@عليجبر-ص3س]

i have one like it for sell if you want to buy contact with me

[@fernank017]

I hate TGV only because every-time he recommends something, the price goes up...like a TGV tax.

[@dachanist]

This true pogue stuff is rediculous. Its like owning a white turbo 1st gen esprit but the bond car wasn't a turbo and had different seats. Honestly who cares so long as its a nice watch.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

I agree with the idea of a nice watch being the most important thing. But the "true Pogue" thing - that's got money attached to it. The right watch will bring 3-4 times the price of one that is *almost* right. So, it matters to the people who are buying. As a side note, I'm the person who started the whole "True Pogue" thing on the old SCWF, well over ten years ago. Never did I think that would become a universal thing in the watch world, but it is a bit gratifying to know that I had an impact that is useful for people who want the real thing.

[@dachanist]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch 4:05 William Pogues' bracelet and 30 minute timer hand were replaced aftermarket, thus every yellow dial 6139 with some non original part is a Pogue. Pogues' Seiko was beat to shit, so its not a true Pogue unless it's beat to shit. His day was set to French, so its not a true Pogue unless you have yours set to French. A true Pogue has to have a second hand that is either non functioning or 9 seconds left of center. A true Pogue has been to space and thus is slightly older than the date indicated by the serial number. lol. Most yellow dial 6139s are fake! Fake Fake Fake! lol Including mine which was quite affordable and has the caseback from a different model, but it has a yellow dial and a Pepsi bezel and I like to look at it because it's pretty and it makes me think of spaceships :P

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

@@dachanist What was the point of this?

[@johnwheat5199]

What is it with this obsessive "Pogue" designation, it's a Seiko "Speedtimer", and It was never anything other. Surely "Pogue" is only relevant to the watch owned by Pogue, so does it really matter. It's a decent enough watch, but it's not, by any stretch of the imagination, a valuable one, and that includes the actual watch owned by Pogue.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

The value of a watch is very dependent on what the model is. Money means it matters. Also, no one has ever called a non-Speedtimer a Speedtimer. Speedtimers say “Speedtimer” on the dial.

[@johnwheat5199]

@@SpencerKleinVintageWatch It's my understanding, Pouge wore his watch in space, November 73. So, what were the watches, manufactured from 1969-73, without "Speedtimimer" on the dial, referred to by Seiko? One thing for certain, they weren't referred to by ANYONE as a "Pouge"!

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

@@johnwheat5199 The 6139s were made from Jan 1969 and discontinued in late-ish 1978. If a 6139 says "speedtimer", then it is a Speedtimer. If it doesn't, it isn't. Going to space or staying on Earth makes no difference.

[@mstrwul1]

Absolute snobbery what you said about the Pogue dial chronograph automatic. That dial was introduced in 75 by seiko. If you want to that snobbish about it you could say that all "pogue" are not pogues and the only real pogue is the absolute original.

[@SpencerKleinVintageWatch]

That's exactly what I do say. I've always said that. You're not correct about the dial issue date, I'm sorry. Also, I'm pretty unclear on what snobbery you're talking about, but manners cost nothing.