Square Dies?? Could use your help!! (Butterfield ~ Derby Line, VT) - MSFN

[@abaker7615]

I believe these dies were used by wheel wrights and makers of farm equipment. They had their own handles that look like a combination of current die holders and the old monkey wrench for square nuts. archive.org/details/UnionTwistDrillCoCatalogOfTapsDiesReamers1948 page 81 they were still selling these dies in 1948. I would guess their use would be where it was difficult to keep a round die from spinning in the holder.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

EXCELLENT!!! Thank You!! Looks like you have the post of the day!! Much appreciated sir!! ~ Richard 😊

[@paulnorris4616]

Hi,I'm Paul from Boston England and I'm a 4th generation motor trade member and as the guy said below my great grandad had die sets like these and he was a coach builder and wheelwright, we see these all over the place in the uk, quality varies massively but in those days you paid what you had to for the work you got!! We call them die heads or stock! Don't ask I never asked why they call them stocks myself! They are usually whitworth (course thread) they also do a w/worth Fine thread which changed over time into BSF (British Standard Fine thread) the holders were like the USA two piece die holders but used the square die head only and over time we changed the shape to a octagonal one, the squares and octagonal tended to bu used to repair worn or damaged threads and the split dies were used to cut new threads once we had the quality of metal better! People put old ex military boxed sets on eBay even if not all parts were there,and think that ex military or mod/ s ( ministry of defence/supply) is a reason to ask silly prices . if you might need this sort of threads and see a decent part set cheap buy them but if it's silly money get 1 tap or die at a time from the sales site I said earlier, some of the dies/taps are crap and die real fast but a set or parts from a good English Or American Maker should last well of if you want to do a lot of w/w work buy the later ex army/ government contractors more modern split round dies and taps much over here at car boot sales and auctions can be good metal or even HSS, just remember as a guide if you want a tap or die the size refers to the diameter of the bolt/hole not the nut/bolt head we here never use these anymore unless it's a old repair etc.but there's tons of this stuff everywhere, and village garden sales and even junk shops can do a bargain if you look hard well I've gone on for too long so I will just say stay safe when your working and keep on bringing on the weird tools!!!all the best from paul

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Hi Paul, Thanks very much for the chat regarding your experience with odd items such as these.... The education I have gotten on them made the video worth posting...the response has been tremendous and I learned a LOT about them. I think its worthwhile leaving the video up as its been a vid that has sparked some great stories and conversation such as yours, and many others! Thanks for taking the time for your valued reply to the video! Regards, Richard 😊

[@hughgaynor4320]

As mentioned they appear to be Warragul Dies usually used on pipe threads they are still available today. Look up warriguI dies at Blackwoods Australia. I have the ones my great uncle George had. I have two holders for the dies. I have used them for cutting tapered pipe threads. All of mine are bsp, British Standard Pipe threads.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

cool, thanks!!!!

[@486kyle]

I've got a stack of them held together with a looong carriage bolt, got them at a garage sale, appear to be inserted with some sort of steel in an iron body they seem to work fine as any other, so I use them as intended...

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Lots of info on them in the comment section, one of my viewers sent me his grand dad's long handle die stock that holds these. He had no use for it...was really nice of him ~ Richard

[@jamesjonesw7606]

They were used by blacksmiths machinests ,and pipefiters and are still used today by thous that have them. I have a set that I still use. they have a handle that holds the dye on one side and holds interchangable guide bushings on the other side. It had two handles the same as modern dye holders.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Great info! Thanks! A viewer was kind enuff to offer me a handle to fit these dies, it just arrived yesterday.

[@OldtimeIronman]

The square dies were common with blacksmiths in the 1800's among others.... its rare to have a full set like that.

[@dalmatiangirl61]

Pretty sure they are just old farm tools, I find them in just about every old barn clean-out. There are handles to hold the dies, I saved a bunch from the scrap bin thinking someone would want them, but they do not sell well. Might have a handle or 2 still kicking around if you want one.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

My email address is in the description box, thanks!

[@DankeyKang202X]

Rich, thanks to the wild world of KZbin algorithms I've found you. I actually work at this very plant, though it is no longer Butterfield. I have never come across a square die, but when I return to work on Monday I'll look to speak with some of our experienced crew and see if they can recall these. I hope to have an answer back to you soon! Very cool, thank you for sharing.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

That would be great!! Small World!

[@Fr1day-RT]

Cool I've never seen those before. They might be worth keeping for chasing damaged threads if you find/make a wrench big enough for them. Possibly even to debur lathe cut threads. 5/8-11 is pretty common in some industries I tap/threadmill it fairly often.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I thought the dies were odd enough to share, I usually dont do videos like this. I was was looking for info on them...got a lot in the comments

[@Xynudu]

Looks like a real old UNC set. They used square dies in square die holders back then, same as the round sets commonly used today. Antique. The square design makes more sense as it doesn't require a locking pin as with round, butthe frame has to be stronger/heavier. They are still available today, useful for high torque work, but more expensive to produce as they contain a lot more metal. Just another way of doing it. Cheers Rob

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thank you for your input Rob, the choice to put these up to learn more about them was a good one.

[@foamplane]

As far as I know, these were a design that was specific to Union-Butterfield, who were known for making very high quality cutters. I think Sandvik now own the brand name. Although other manufacturers copied the design later. These were originally made back in the 1880's when they were used in the manufacture of Railway Locomotives and equipment as well as in the manufacture of Carriages and Wagons. They have a specific die holder that holds them.... looks like a modern die holder but is is a kind of diamond shape in the centre. They were propitiatory to Union-Butterfield to encourage people to only use their dies. The reason you would find references to Blacksmithing is that a lot of Railway shop work involved heavy forging and blacksmithing work. You may also be correct that they may have been used in screw making as a lot of that went on in Railway workshops. They made almost everything they used in house.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I find them fascinating. One of the viewers made a video showing me his die stocks that held these, good stuff 😊

[@Zakardis]

Dies used for cleaning up existing threads. Square dies are still made today, but the Butterfield Derby Line dies were originally used to clean up threads on buggy axles.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Nice to know...you viewers are a great source of knowledge. Thanks!!!

[@waldownafficionado3391]

I think they are designed for cutting external threads on pipe and larger diameter round stock. Square shape just allows them to be easily turned with high torque. Still available in Aus - try googling 'Warragul Die'

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thanks for that, the viewers have really given me an education on these today...much appreciated 👍🏼

[@pyromedichd1]

My Dad has several old pipe dies that are square like that. I'd check Ebay for a die stock that fits if you want to use them. Those dies are probably close to 80 years old and may even be for sharp V threads.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Would love to have a die stock for these....and possibly find the rest of the set in my friends storage unit

[@farmdadco]

They are just what dies used to be . Somewhere out in the shop I have most of a set strung on a wire along with the handle for them that my Grandfather had and used on the farm pre ww2. Funny how an old square headed bolt or nut is unremarkable but a tool having a different and simpler to make shape seems a mystery LOL

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

LOL! Isnt that the truth! Would love to have a handle that accepts these

[@turningpoint6643]

There pretty old but I believe they were a lot like what we have for hex dies today. They were meant for cleaning up existing threads if damaged and not for forming threads from scratch. In a pinch even a pipe wrench could be used to turn the die if no die stocks were handy. I do recall seeing die stocks listed for those large square dies in a real old tool catalog. Who knows, you might get lucky finding a couple of the stocks on Ebay by setting up a daily search. Maybe check the taper angle on the threads against a more normal die? A longer and slower angle should indicate there for repairing threads not making them.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Yup, needs more investigating. Thanks for watching

[@paulnorris4616]

Hi,just in case anyone's interested, I checked my old tool catalogues and a 1951 T C Jones cat. Lists them for sale as Stocks for tube & conduit threading! Only they were sold loose with no option for a boxed set? Regards paul

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thanks Paul, thanks for taking the time and for the info 👍🏼

[@TomokosEnterprize]

Butterfield made a great quality product. I have many of their tap sets given to me by a friend. I don't think they were handle mounted as I see no marks from a retainer or fastener so my thoughts are they were vise mounted and the workpiece turned into them. Most likely by a blacksmith. Wonderful pieces bud. You will have to let us know what you find out about them.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Odd stuff for sure, happy to own them 😊

[@MyHeap]

Hey Richard, I have no answer to your question so I apologize in advance. However, seeing your square dies reminds me that old time watch makers used a similar method for threading. They used a single plate with several different dies formed in it to make very small screw threads. Not related I guess, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for showing them. Apparently, these are still sold, but I am unable to post links in the comment. Will email them to you. Joe

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I am sure someone out there knows, thanks for checkin it out Joe

[@trollforge]

Blacksmiths used screw plates like that long before the industrial revolution (only larger,) I have a a couple in my toolbox.

[@rodneysrepurposingrecyclin3821]

When I was younger by almost 22 years I worked at a factory that built satellite dishes. (Before the small ones). In the machine shop they used something similar to turn out the bolts for the pitch adjuster. It started as a piece if 3/3 bar stock. The machine used was a dedicated machine. Turning the threads was it's on my purpose. A square die like that was used. I remember this sure to I had to fire a "machinist" for ruining the die. He didn't know there was supposed to be cooling/cutting oil. The die cost the company upwards of 1000$. Or so we was told. The company was new tech of Bonnieville. It was located in Bonnieville Kentucky. They also made tool boxes and cookware.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Cool story......thanks for sharing!! 😊

[@rodneysrepurposingrecyclin3821]

Makin Sumthin From Nuthin very welcome sir

[@shonamagouyrk9575]

My granddad was a machinist and these r something like a key

[@Simple5.0]

they’re pre-run sample sets the manufacturer makes. they get the okay and then they build the part to that spec.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thanks for your input, hopin to get to the bottom of this mystery....I look at them every day

[@trollforge]

I don't think so.

[@Norsesmalfarmer]

Hey, got a ton of these and the hadle for them too. Can put a lot of torque on one of these before they brake vs the "modern" round ones

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thats terrific! With the proper handle I bet they work well!

[@pacokelly5536]

The butter field railroad machine shop maybe.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

No telling, thanks for watching

[@scor440]

There square to start with your hand and then the special wrench which is a square with two handles like a round die handle

[@stephenwagar2663]

Lots Of Good Answers ...........I Do Not Have A Clue ! But You Got A Square Deal ................

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Ha!!!, yes...apparently I did!

[@bcbloc02]

I can't help but I would assume they are just standard dies only with square bodies. Possibly they were for a screw machine type application.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

If you can't help I may never find out! LOL

[@RockingJOffroad]

Richard, I can’t say what yours were for, but I have a set of square pipe dies that look very simillar

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Interesting...thanks!

[@danvandertorre9280]

my guess would be they are meant to be used in a vise ,you may have to make a square 2 handled holder for them ,that's what I would do .

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

The pinned comment at the top of the comment section sheds more light on them, meant to be held in a huge tap wrench handle

[@danvandertorre9280]

yes I bet its real big .

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thats what the girl at the bar said to me! 😎

[@shawnmrfixitlee6478]

I have seen a ton of those in my day, Never bought or kept any . I bet they are used for farm and like wheel and big heavy repairs ..

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

They are pretty cool, I like having them 😊

[@roleic7246]

I don't think they were meant to be used in a machine but by hand with a handle or in a vise.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

One of my viewers sent me a huge die stock handle to be used with these....learned a lot about them since the video!

[@CraftedChannel]

I've seen them before. Check out acorn dies for some really weird stuff. I think this is what as made before there were popular standards of round die sizes. Bunch of them listed one bay right now. I think they may have been turned with a wrench. I don't remember ever seeing a die stock for big ones like this.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I have a few of the standards...wish I had the whole set. Good to see you Dave ~ Richard

[@CraftedChannel]

Might take a while to collect. Just start snapping them up off ebay and anyplace you see them. Would be a cool set. Bet yet. Make them.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I am gonna attempt making my own dies if other things around the house quit giving me trubbles :(

[@donfoster1832]

It seems that these were made back in the time when thread standardization was being developed. Shop made dies could be made on a lathe and would be perfetly centered if not removed from the headstock. Manufactured dies closely resembled the hand made dies of the time. At least the story sounds reasonable. chestofbooks.com/crafts/machinery/Shop-Practice-V1/Tool-Making-Part-II-Standard-Tools-Thread-Cutting-Dies.html

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Old tools are so cool, Iam learning a lot about these....Thanks!

[@pgs8597]

G’day Richard, I have a stock to hold those die’s and a single 3/4” pipe thread die handed down from my father, I was/am the only one in the family with gal water pipes. If I recall correctly they also were for the onsite

[@pgs8597]

Circular stocks mounted on a tripod

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Hi PGS, nice to learn more about them from the viewers. Now I am wishing I had the die stock to hold them now that I know what they are ☹️

[@pgs8597]

Makin Sumthin From Nuthin Do I see a project in the future? Cast the stock in aluminium.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I dont think a cast aluminum die stock would hold up to the stresses of the larger dies

[@cpcoark]

I actually have a die tee holder for those dies. I don't see a name on it buyy it looks like it is for 2.5 inch square dies. I can send you a picture if you wish.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

A viewer of the channel actually sent me a die holder for these that was his grandfather's, he said he had no use for it. Massive things aren't they?! Was mighty thoughtful of him ~ Richard

[@FishmanEricRussell]

Not a clue but cool looking

[@davebrown4005]

These go a way back!

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I believe they are very old as well

[@1svsoulmate]

They are called Block Dies. The ones I used were for pipe threading. you can get new ones here. www.reedmfgco.com/en/

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thank You!

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Mine are not stamped NPT though

[@trollforge]

The 2 1/2" dies are the smaller set, I have 2 antique Tap wrenches, 1 for 2 1/2 square and 1 for 3" or 3 1/4, I'll have to go look. I'll throw up a quick vid in the next few days to show them off.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Please do!! TIA ~ Richard

[@trollforge]

VR MSFN - My Antique, Butterfield Rock Island Machinist's Die Handles. kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5jVqniHosZ4rJY

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thank you, will be checkin it out soon! I appreciated ya ~ Richard

[@rupert5390]

Hello friend these are Pipe dies and went into a square die holder with a ratchet mechanism and replaceable guide bushings,- here is a version of the die holder - happy to email you photos if you send me an email address. Regards

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thanks Gez, all the kind viewers like yourself have educated me on what these are and their use in a Die Stock. A very generous viewer actually sent me his grandfathers die stock that fits this size die....totally awesome viewers I have!! 👍🏼🤗

[@paulgradin5943]

There are special die holders for those

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Odd piece of history...thats for sure

[@paulgradin5943]

They come in metric imperial and pipe thred

[@paulgradin5943]

www.nostalgiprylar.com/Nostalgibilder/Verktyg_metall/a_threating_tools.jpg

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Thanks Paul!

[@jamesjonesw7606]

I was still able to buy them in 1985.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

When tools were meant to last> the good 'ole days :)

[@jimpritz4169]

Look up Reed Die Pipe Threaders

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

Hmmmm...ok

[@BisonWorkshop]

make a square die holder with a handle like i did with a big set i have.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

I have one of those as well but one to hold that size die would have to be HUGE

[@MaturePatriot]

Reed makes a square die handle that would work. Are the dies Standard Imperial or NPT? Check out laurelleaffarm.com, they have/had a vintage Reed square die handle.

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

They are not marked NPT, I think they are standard dies. I may rig something more substancial up and try cutting a thread....I have chased a 1/2-13 thread with one and it did a good job...they are sharp

[@OldIronShops]

hey man i while back i made a mistake and removed your post . total bozo moment on my part i was trying to pin it and hit the wrong thing and there is no way to undo it that i know of . and i didn't know who's post it was tell a few days ago i saw you sent a message asking why it happened (my bad this was all moths ago man and just saw this). i replied but the you tube message system is not something that gets noticed much lol. hope you see this here

[@MakinSumthinFromNuthin]

No worries Chris