Are Large Armies Better? A Warhammer The Old World Event Report

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Hey everyone! Happy New Year Events at tSN can be found here - tsnarena.com/events/category/the-old-world/ Lists form this event are here - www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/kkbD8WAIroOQ

[@JohnnyTightIips]

The idea of 62 chaos warriors and like 5 chaos heroes sprinting off the table is just hilarious

[@FuriousGeorge47-ji4bu]

Adore these event videos, the interviews have so much enthusiasm and insight into how the game is evolving and actually being played

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

They are all such great people

[@kealyj]

Agreed about how good these videos are. A real service to the Old World community.

[@alexshaw9901]

Thanks for running the event Rob! I can say as the current TSN Arena Ranked #1 I had a great time. Great opponents and brilliant looking armies as always! Suck it Tom

[@alexshaw9901]

And being best sportsman was the icing on the cake!

[@jackcrop]

😂😂😂😂

[@stephentoal4705]

Great video and great event. Thanks for making myself and my lad feel so welcome. I think 2400 or 2500 points will turn out to be the competitive sweetspot for TOW, as it was in 8th. It allows for more variety yet still enabling games to be played in 3 hours. I'm bringing 4 Dragon next time 😂

[@VoltanIgnatio]

As for the winner, he's only gone and done it again! Well done Jack - taking Empire all the way! 💂‍♂️🎉💪👍

[@Cael551]

I think 2.5k or 3.0k with a 1k limit on characters would be super interesting. Allows you to pick up those other few pieces that are otherwise priced out or forced out by essential units which lets be honest ... typically tends to be infantry.

[@ClintOrris]

Yeah there should be a limit on the characters

[@MatthewClayton-p1n]

So I found it OK tbh as apart from the triple dragon list where I was unlucky I didn't find any armies that where a massive issue hell I even took on a Duke a Baron the green knight 6 pegasus knights and a Paladin all charged my big block and I still beat them

[@FATEWEAV3R]

I play 2.5k with a 875 point limit on characters and it has always made for really fun games. Also experimenting currently with infantry always fight in 2 ranks and really enjoying it.

[@MatthewClayton-p1n]

@FATEWEAV3R Not a fan of the fighting in 2 ranks tbh and at the bigger sized games characters aren't as much of an issue and don't really need limiting

[@alexmadrigal9703]

I have played a handful of 3k games, and they're an absolute blast. It really feels like the Warhammer I remember and love. As expected, it does take a lot longer than a 2k point game, but it makes for a very fun and eventful evening. 2.5k is still the sweet spot for me, especially as my opponents and I become more and more familiar with all the rules, the game moves along at a fair clip. I wish I lived near enough to the TSN arena, I would absolutely LOVE to participate in a 3k tournament. Keep 'em coming, I can't wait to see what awesome formats you guys bring to the community in 2025!

[@Bog_Dog]

Yeah I’ve made a 2k list for my first army, but have a planned 500 point addition to that which is basically some extra monsters and small artillery which I think adds some nice stuff but not toooo much longer to a game

[@alexmadrigal9703]

@@Bog_Dog Hell yeah. After having played for a year, I totally understand why 2k has become the tournament standard, it just lets players finish games in the time allotted. But 2.5k just lets you bring so many more fun things.

[@iambryansimpson]

I love bigger games. More risk, more war.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

More BATTLE

[@VoltanIgnatio]

So glad you put on a tournament at 3k! Hope to make the next one and see more events at this size generally. More tactical flexibility with more points.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

It was actually really interesting

[@VoltanIgnatio]

I think the extra points can really help armies that rely on tactics Vs big smash. When your support forces (as you mentioned in the video) are 500-700pts (and not all from core), you're pretty limited in putting combat threats on the tabletop without going deathstar or hero hammer - disproportionately affecting armies without those pieces, and also preventing infantry from coming in enough volume of decently sized units to have play

[@Ghost644-t6z]

We’ve been running 1750 to 2k but throne of skulls comp down in Sydney and the “big bads” have somewhat disappeared at those events. The initial knee jerk of “it’s only killed the chaos dragon and not touched brettonia” seemed to not have played out as the frenchies aren’t winning the events. We had lizardmen win a smaller 16 player ToS comp event two weeks back!!

[@ulysescolon2183]

BIG ARMIES MAKES ME BIGGGGG HAPPYYYYY!!!!

[@markysgeeklab8783]

I would like to see 2 different common standardized tournament sizes. Not sure what the sizes should be, but it would be cool for competative events to have a smaller entry level size game and a much bigger size. Diffrent enough to favour diffrent armies and also keep hobbying entry barrier low-ish

[@dan_hahn]

AHHHH the synthwave terrain is just unreal. That is so beautiful. That aside, love this idea. The game really lends itself to larger spectacle events and it's really encouraging to see things like this tried out.

[@emcdunna]

Looks like 3k is tons of fun!

[@markhowlett8498]

Going in 600pts steps is always best, so 1800 & 2400 are golden. Gotta bring enough time and snacks for the bigger ones though. 3000pts is really nice but you gotta be real in that there’s some who won’t be able to field that huge amount of minis or so many of the bigger ones. Which makes it all the more incredible what you guys just did there. Many, many years ago (early 2000’s) I was in a nice gigantic brawl with 30Kpts on each side. Made me remember the good ol’ days and that I wanna have that again. Thank you for providing positive Old World vibes all around the world.

[@cooljoe500]

I dont even have 1000 points painted yet 😅. But looks very cool!

[@TobyGilham]

Looked like another great event at the tSN

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Miss ya tobes

[@oleww50]

Can’t wait for some more Old World videos from you and Val! 2025 looks to be a good one! ❤

[@donandresdeulloa4638]

the yes, the triple dragon "friend".... that guy strikes again

[@steveh.690]

Love this game my group here in the USA, play 3000 all the time. And it is going well and fun as we learn the game rules more and more. Great looking army's and awesome tournament and video, thanks.

[@Svengar]

Usually I would plan for a 2000 point game but honestly 3000 points sounds awesome as it would relieve so much of the pressure from cutting everything down to fit into 2000. Lots of very nice armies partook by the looks

[@rambosquirrel6943]

just goes to show its not how big it is but what you do with it that matters :)

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

That's what the deamonette said

[@felixarbable]

Good to see jack representing Portugal 😂

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

He's a great lad

[@paulthetyyppi]

Cool lists that actually resemble armies.

[@Jurgensmiasma]

Getting back into fantasy again after the old world,still have my old armies,but they need rebasing. 2500-3000 looks good on the table and gives a more balanced army. Really tempted to have a go at competitive events now. Great vid.

[@RoldhammerWargaming]

Awesome! More and bigger! 10,000 points per side super teams!

[@AM-uw3gp]

That would be awesome to watch

[@MiniatureRealms]

Love the look of games at 3k. Having been struggling to get everything I want in my Nuln army at 2k, and I don’t mean competitively either, I wouldn’t hate the ‘standard’ game being 2.5k, especially of those extra points weren’t all thrown into characters.

[@JeffG-n8p]

Love it. Great content. I just played 2100 point game today myself. And yes there is definitely some differences between 2000-3000. Keep up the great work. !!!🖤

[@michaldzurenda504]

WoCh triple dragon at 2k is by far the most popular list in the Polish tournament meta which is pretty damn competitive.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Yeah of course. It's ez pz the best and should be nerfed

[@Emanon...]

Great video! Maybe 2500 pts with a 1000 pts character cap is the way to go?

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Yeah, as a Dwarf player I’d prefer 2999 or 3000 over 2000. Maybe 2500 is the sweet spot? You’ll have to test it out in the future, Rob.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

It’s actually really interesting.

[@MrAndy365]

Love 3k, but 2.5k is the sweet spot i think - still only 2 lord/dragon choices, etc but gives the armies without those 500pts more to deal with them And it *looks* more like Warhammer with big blocks

[@rumdiaries6063]

Anywhere we can see the lists if we arent subscribers of BCP?

[@perfidy1103]

Good stuff. I do think 2000 points armies can look a bit small, so would be very interested in seeing what larger games look/play like. That people are experimenting rather than reflexively going with the chair GW standard of 2000 points.

[@perfidy1103]

11:04 okay, if this format allows big bricks of Chaos Warriors, I'm in!

[@A_Very_Happy_Toad]

New Year's resolution: get to a TSN Arena event

[@42tjat42]

Are you tempted by 2999 pts? So there isn’t the extra 1 per 1000 option, though doesn’t sound like it would have too much of an impact. Also maybe increase the minimum number of drops!

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Maybe adding a maximum unit size as well?

[@TheNelsonsd]

Always enjoy watching your event videos. Don’t ever run beginner events at TSN for learning the game?

[@JamesBerryman1991]

Me and my friends tried 4K games, we made the table 8x4 rather than the usual 6x4 I think with the larger table it worked and looked very thematic

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

That's cool

[@teessidetyrants1989]

Some amazing looking armies. Well done everyone.

[@mammothminis7421]

I'm glad it works well even at bigger points. I always enjoyed playing Fantasy at 2.5k during 7th/8th since it gave you some extra toys to play with without burdening the game too much but haven't tried it with Old World yet myself. I love seeing these event videos, it really makes me want to go myself. I just have to fight off the social anxiety off first! 😅

[@timhyland6834]

Just played my first 3k game and loved the size. Avanti

[@evanvaldyke353]

So I like that you do coolest army, and you shouldn't stop doing that with a player vote But you really should do best painted. Like you said, you get intimidated/feel excluded by best painted But counterpoint, there are painters/hobbyists that feel excluded from winning an event. I know at this point in my life I won't win events. I just cant get enough games and reps in to be competitive enough. Just a fact. But I spend ample time late at night painting. If I'm not going to win games, I'm at least going to have an army to impress Not having best painted diminishes that time spent by hobbyists. It devalues their effort. Meanwhile you are actively rewarding those who spend time grinding games. Coolest army by player vote is a great thing for a level playing field. But a best painted with a rubric and judge should be viewed the same as people competing to get battlepoints throughout the day

[@DAN_OOTFP]

💯

[@TheHonestWargamer]

It's a tournament. Not a painting competition. It's a gaming event not a best painted event. The nod to hobby is in respect to it but making it the main focus is silly. That's what golden demon or armies on parade is for

[@evanvaldyke353]

@TheHonestWargamer Okay, but there are hundreds of tournaments every year and what, 5 real painting competitions? And what, tough crap if you can't afford to travel to a golden demon? I live in Australia currently. Last golden demon here was 2012. If no one did best painted at tournaments, there would be no painting awards on the continent. This would be like telling a guy who games more that there are only 5 tournaments, all LVO sized, and that's where they should compete. Too bad if they never stand a chance there. And there are no 24-48 person painting competitions And one "best army" competition. AoP. And even that isn't a true painting competition. It also is a "coolest army" competition. I'm not saying painting should be the main focus. That IS silly. But there is no reason for a hobby where we want painted armies why there shouldn't be a prize for the best painted, even if it's just a certificate. And setting it aside from a player vote avoids popularity contests. Not recognizing painting is basically telling people who see themselves as painters first and gamers second that how they engage with the hobby is lesser than someone who is a gamer first, or at least it is at the TSN arena

[@brendanberry1752]

Looks awsome! I may have missed it, but was there any list restrictions at 3k points?

[@jackcrop]

Just the standard rule of 3 outside core (unless stipulated differently in the army books).

[@kingcaboose2]

Big props to the TOs out there running fun events no matter the size. I think 2500 will be the sweet spot. If you want to play skirmish age of sigmar is the best for that but if you want to see proper Armies you have to go large. As people gain experience the games go faster, and look and feel amazing to play

[@JaykeHallOfLegends]

I’d definitely be up for a larger points game, but I find people tend to play so slowly the games could drag when not at an event with time constraints

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

I agree

[@AndrewWehener]

I would love to play bigger games!

[@JaykeHallOfLegends]

That warrior of chaos block reminds me of my 6th ed slashesh chosen block, 40 chosen, great weapons and shield, immune to psych (which was bigger back then), BSB, Lord and sorcerer 😂

[@JohnZastrow]

I ran a home campaign with a buddy and we played several 2000 point games but our finale was 3000. I felt like the 3000pt game was much more of a full experience, with more combined arms, and a better looking table. I can definitely imagine some really skewed and stupid lists at higher points, but with some comp rules that can be tamed

[@thrashhole]

Secret for victory, Portuguese t-shirt!

[@MSU117MAD]

2500pts with a 40% character cap may be my next tournament format having done MIGT @2500 and 1 day event @2k.

[@SkiSummer]

2500 points is a really fun points value to play at!

[@Dre0oq]

Seattle gang are putting together a 2500 pt 3 game one day event. I guess I'll keep you guys posted with how it goes.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Please do

[@Dre0oq]

We just had the event yesterday. It went really smoothly. 2500pts 3 games. Seattle gang has been doing some light comp to move away from big Dragons and lvl4 spam, so only 1 wizard lvl 3 or higher and no individual character above 350 pts. Round 1 was an objective game with 3 on the board diagonally. They're worth 200pts each if claimed at the end of the game and can only be claimed by a unit w/ unit strength 5+ and a has a banner. Round 2 was Breakpoint and 3 was Open Battle. We had 10 people in attendance which is the largest event in Seattle yet I believe. Faction Breakdown was interesting: 3 Chaos Dwarfs, 2 Dwarfs, 2 Tomb Kings, Dark Elves, Chaos Warriors, and of course I played Beastmen. We had 3.5 hour rounds and most of my games were done half and hour early or more, and games that went to time sounded like they were into round 5 or so in most cases. Armies felt really full and fun and the comp pushed people into bringing way more bells and whistles. I think List building at 2500 feels fun and flexible letting you really tie a bow on your list. Warpfire Dragon was a cool appearance. I got to play my whole collection which felt really cool and thematic.

[@harriettubmangaming9792]

I 100% think larger games are more fun, probably slightly more balanced too. IIRC the OG forces of fantasy lists were balanced around armies of 3000 points which seems to be a sweet spot even all these years later. I totally think a doubles event where each player brings 1500 points would be cool, and might be a good way to promote larger games while having a more achievable army size per player.

[@adriend7134]

2500 is great.

[@JustaRandoDudeGuyMan]

Large armies are better!!! I like 2,800 points. Keeps core a round number and you don’t have to deal with oppressive units x 3 Alternatively 3k points but you need 1k of core. It gets around armies having one giant block of core that is actually an elite unit in their book that gets to count as core. Such as dwarf rangers. 33% core vs 25% isn’t that big of a jump but it’s doubling the points from 500 to 1000. You will absolutely see dwarf warriors or the like. Thanks for all the content and for growing the metta to include events such as this.

[@nurglematthew]

Sounds like an absolute banger. You know I'd like to show you MY 3,000 points!!!! Eyyy!!! 🎉

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Love ya bud

[@ClintOrris]

Rob you should check out Gundam Assemble! It's a newly announced Gundam table top game with minis like WarHammer. It could be epic! 20:31 I like the idea of points and ranks. It would be nice to see this expanded to other tournaments around the world. It seems like a fun way to promote participation. I would also say, sportsmanship should be included in the decision making process so that the cheats are dissuaded from trying. Stamp out the drama early. Whenever points are up for grabs, people will do whatever it takes to win

[@jackcrop]

@@ClintOrris best sports is worth 1/3rd of the points! So hopefully keep us all with a smile on our face :)

[@drathlor]

yup larger is better, the tournaments I used to do for Fantasy were 2250 the smallest usually up to 2750. 2500 points was the standard usually. It makes it larger and more fun, without adding too much.

[@John-lf3iu]

Great video really inspiring! I’m looking to get into TOW having left the hobby at 6th (High Elf, VC, and Empire). Based down South around Berkshire anyone have any good club / event recommendations?

[@brett7773]

I laugh at myself at the comment of casual play at 4 hours - a game of fantasy usually takes us all day (sometimes longer) 😅

[@DAN_OOTFP]

Yes, painting is hard. But sometimes painters feel excluded from the top gaming rankings. Its a hobby of many spectrums. Painting is as valid as generalship. Both are skills. Disappointing. Its nice to see 3k size gaming though. 2k is a little lacking and leads to less diversity in lists. Good to see the fun "risky" stuff.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Every event in the world has a best painted. We are introducing best single mini too. There's also golden demon but as far as I'm aware no award for just a cool themed army

[@DAN_OOTFP]

@SquareBasedOldWorld People have been running Favourite Peer Voted for years. Heresy events have been doing it for a decade or more. That alongside Judge Voted Best Painted covers all bases. Fair enough, if you don't want to do it. But binning it in order to let people who aren't as skilled avoid feeling excluded while handing out generalship trophies doesn't sound as inclusive as you think it does. Takes all sorts to make a world, its clearly working for you. 👍

[@javgoro]

Very interesting. I've been saying for a long time that while 2000 is "the standard" because that's what people used to do in the past (and possibly the best one for competitive play because it forces you into making choices), for fun games 2400-2500 is the sweet spot, as the force org is the same as at 2000, but you open up space for adding fun toys without the armies benefitting too much from the possibility of adding more of the same good stuff. I think it would be good for the game if more people were willing to test different points games, if only to figure out what will be the healthiest (i.e. most fun) level.

[@catalingavrilescu2317]

regarding what people played in the past, during 6th ed we only played 2500 :). Eastern Europe location.

[@javgoro]

@catalingavrilescu2317 interesting. Here in Spain, it was either 2000 or 1999+1 most of the times (for tournament play, anyway). 1500 was popular for 40K at the time, but never caught on for Fantasy. It wasn't until 8th that 2400 became the norm.

[@catalingavrilescu2317]

@@javgoro this is what I am seeing as well now with 6th ed. I currently live in Spain, 6th ed is still very popular. Before TOW launch I was actually thinking of getting back into 6th edition.

[@javgoro]

@catalingavrilescu2317 yeah, 6th was always massive here and still is the most popular edition, although I feel TOW is finally gaining traction.

[@catalingavrilescu2317]

@@javgoro fingers crossed! Infantry nerfing kept at least some people to switch to TOW. And that for the first half a year there were tournaments that didn't accept legacy armies. The trend will reverse probably because a lot of tournaments are now with 40% cap on characters and this might also appeal to the 6th ed crowd.

[@roccodevenanzio6106]

Waaay back in 3rd and 4th edition. 3k battles were standard for fantasy, 40k was 2k.

[@brett7773]

Sounds like would have to play on the traditional 8x4 🤓

[@MirelurkCakes]

Why not do coolest army and best painted awards? Seems a bit shit not to award someone for putting in a crazy amount of time and effort into a beautiful army and get overshadowed by a mediocre meme army.

[@jesuisroux]

How about doing an event of 2000pts but using % requirements for 1500pts so for most armies you have max 750pts of characters and would need minimum 375pts of core this free up 875pts for other toys at 2000pts …you could also do a 2500pts event but using % requirements of 2000pts so for most armies restricting you 1000pts of characters 500pts minimum core and 1000pts of toys

[@briankupcheck5426]

No Chaos Dwarves? FFFFFFF----

[@djdps]

2500 is definitely the sweet spot for ToW

[@plazma5343]

Good content but the link to the lists to a paid subscription service is kind of a d... move :( i though it was a free account and no. If Im missong something I applogise.

[@Flintun]

So we are all in agreement that either 2500 or 3k games are now standard.

[@NisGaarde]

2500 pt. but max 1000 pt. characters

[@lamMeTV]

square bases are superior

[@CadianBandStand]

Wish people could be happier with smaller points, rather play at 1500 than 2500

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Make it happen for you

[@lordpappanqui]

Soooooooo, we are back to 5th ed HeroHammer....... no thank you. Didn't care for that bull***t then, I don't care for that now. That isn't Warhammer. (regardless of editions)