Stan Lee's Secret Origins Marvel Contract || Docuseries-75 by Alex Grand

[@LarryRoot348]

This is a fascinating look at a complex moment in comics history. It's important to remember the contributions of all the creators, not just Stan Lee

[@edfarajian4664]

Now this is journalism!!❤

[@ScottERoth]

The way Stan Lee's role was portrayed after this contract definitely changed the narrative. It's important to give credit where credit is due

[@edfurnez6134]

Incredible expose Alex! Confirms what a lot of us suspected.

[@winevinylclub3414]

this has been widespread knowledge for years if you ever read about goodman selling his company...

[@edfurnez6134]

⁠nah. It was just a conspiracy theory and a hungry list of suspicions before Alex delivered proof. He is an amazing historian. ❤

[@angelmanfredy]

I will always love and appreciate Stan Lee alongside Jack, Steve and the cadre of legends that came later. They were all Marvel and I’m thankful for them. Haters can keep hating but I pay attention to the unbiased players who were there at the time. Jim Steranko, Roy Thomas, Jim Shooter, Steve Buscema and many more.

[@bendu8282]

Pretty sure due to this contract Stan Lee had his own name given to Marvel under copyright. It could explain why Stan had to fight Marvel later to create his own companies legally and wasn’t getting the majority of the Finnancial revenue he brought to the company.

[@bendu8282]

One thing I can say is that Ditko, Kirby and many others added a whole lot to Marvel, but Stan is did a lot more then Ditko & Kirby perceived especially in the editing side of the dialogue and writing for the comics. A known fact is how he would often change or write his own ideas into the illustrations that Ditko & Kirby and others made so he was very creative on the writing end especially since their visuals certainly helped. Along with that he would often give either vague or grand concepts which Ditko , Kirby or others would often build off of with their side of making issues. It was always a team effort, now if you ask me who did the least work I would say Stan compared to everyone else despite all he added he couldn’t really contribute the biggest amount on his own either having to work with others or put in his ideas during the editing process. One thing I can give him was that in his earlier days he gave them a lot of credit and even admitted they added more then him in a lot of issues with building off his ideas or them bringing him stuff and him doing the editing after. Their collision started when Kirby didn’t like how he was being payed. He took it out at the closest authority to him Stan, and left for DC and other parts of the comic industry. Ditko left over a disagreement he had with Lee on Green Goblin’s identity. Lee wanting it to be Norman Osborn, and Ditko disagreeing. Lee was then told to cut out credit of Kirby and others that left when it came to iconic characters that were made when going over their inception by his bosses probably for good Public Relationsions/PR. The reality is Ditko added a lot to Spider-man in concept and form. Stan added a lot through writing dialogue, story, and personalities during his editing process as well as sharing his ideas at times with Ditko , Kirby and others during the work on these early runs. So I would disagree , Spiderman was a co creation from many people including Stan. And that goes for most of these iconic characters. Some added more to them then others but everyone contributed. Stan Lee didn’t just say Spiderman he added a lot to the comics in the editing room. Though these creators that were given the shaft do deserve more credit, and when push comes to shove I do agree that Ditko’s estate deserves the rights to Spiderman & Dr.Strange. Hopefully their can be a situation where they allow Marvel to still use these characters under a partnership that would also benefit them a lot of money and they can play big roles in the creative process owning the rights so that we can get amazing writing for both in film, comics, shows and games.

[@1971mav]

Comment section, not the essay section.

[@tonygriego6382]

I always figured as much. Interesting video.

[@spaceknight793]

Stan Lee was the mastermind of 60s Marvel the same way George Lucas was the mastermind of Star Wars. Neither came up with every idea, but.... they had the final say of what got included and what didn't. So everything had to have his "yes" or it didn't happen...making the end result his vision in retrospect. And Stan, same as Lucas, was THE person responsible for the success or failure of each title. Kirby and Ditko got paid either way, and were given more work either way, if it was a hit like FF and Spidey or a flop like the Hulk (original series). So while Stan does not deserve sole credit, he had a bigger stake than anyone else. It was HIS "yeses" that built the Marvel Universe. I think he deserves credit for that if it's worded that way.

[@bendu8282]

Lucas came up with most ideas (90%) and was the person who got final say on Star Wars because he owned it. Stan, Steve & Jack were creative collaborators who equally worked on Marvel. Stan didn’t always get final say on what went in books either because he had bosses, even when he was higher up then the other a so these aren’t even comparable. I’d strongly recommend this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZ3Uh3qwa9KCjKcsi=scdVqE3zZQESNrru

[@martinabreu566]

Lucas own Star Wars because he created it. Lee didn't create Marvel characters by himself. I work on the industry as an illustrator, and from what many older people told me, Kirby and Ditko created more than Lee. The difference is that Lee was more a business man than a writer. And he had a super developped ego, a big mouth and he was egocentric.

[@ChimBrouer]

"So everything had to have his "yes" or it didn't happen" No. Steve Ditko (Spider-Man) and Jack Kirby (Fantastic Four, Thor and many others) did their own stories. Stan Lee got the fully pencilled 20 pages on his desk. The only way Stan Lee could influence these stories was by the words he put in the word balloons. And sometimes he would ask for a different version of the cover. Everything else was NOT in his hands. It was all done by Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. This was the famous "Marvel method" of making comics. Not like today, where the artist is often given a complete script, like a film script, down to the point where individual shots (pictures) are described in detail.

[@martinabreu566]

@@ChimBrouer Exactly. Stan was a businessman, not a writer. But he had a big mouth and a huge ego, by that and by his hypocrit way of being, he made everybody believe that he was the mind behind each character. He wasn't a writer, he give the artists a line with what should be drawn on the comic, the artist did all the job, then he put the dialogues and said "this is the Marvel way of creating comics". No, Stan, it was your way of lying and stealing others creativity.

[@ChimBrouer]

@@martinabreu566 "The difference is that Lee was more a business man than a writer. And he had a super developped ego, a big mouth and he was egocentric." Yep, but he was not all bad. With his ego and big mouth, via the bullpen letter pages, he created a community between Marvel Comics and its readers. This was a big contributing factor to the Marvelmania in the 1960s. I am just sad, that Jack Kirby died too early in 1994 and never saw the worldwide success of "his creation": the MCU.

[@dhardhag3523]

And before the ink was dry “Stan Lee Presents…” appeared on every books’ first page.

[@bendu8282]

Look I know people will probably use this video To continue The Anti-Lee Narrative that he had no creativity and didn’t contributing anything to the characters or their stories which is one of the worst lies in Comic Book Culture History but actual research of how things went down in the bullpen along with eye witnesses shows it was a creative collaborative effort between all parties involved and let’s be honest those who believe Jack , Steve & the other did everything themselves creatively with these stories & characters, those claims/beliefs don’t add up when it comes to consistency. Jack, Steve , Stan and everyone else involved have very questionable stories of how everything went down. None of them are consistent and make statements that are clearly driven by feelings Iger objective truth. Added the fact that all for them were older men when making these statements with selective memory or bitter resentment. Many eye witnesses claim they all worked together like a team so I’m willing to by the observations of outside parties who observed them during their creative processes then Stan, Jack , Steve and anyone else with an Axe to grind especially when it came to cash.

[@bendu8282]

@@danielklos1 and the most compelling evidence against The Anti Lee Narrative as I call it is how the personalities behind what when Steve & Jack created after leaving Marvel wasn’t as iconic. I could point out that most of Jack & Steve’s creations before & after Lee was around were co creations with very few being independent ones but I’ll be the “better” man and leave you be.

[@ChimBrouer]

Jack Kirby is the mastermind behind the entire Marvel Universe, and Steve Ditko had created his own playground with Spider-Man and Dr Strange. Stan Lee just put words in the word balloons. You can see this e.g. if you look closely at the FF run. After #67 (July 1967) there is a masive downturn in the series, because Jack Kirby decided to bring no new ideas into the series, because he felt betrayed by Stan Lee. All the issues from then on feel uninspired, no new interesting villains, only mindless android robots. That is because Jack Kirby did all the story telling before and Stan only did the words.

[@anthonyperdue3557]

😞" There is no honor among thieves" Alex and sadly this what Stan has truly been. I'm not merely speaking about the creative identity he willingly pilfered from Jack and Steve once it was apparent that Marvel Comics Group was undeniably successful. Of course he was generous with sharing credit in the early days because there was no expectation of the level of success that lay ahead. Stan stole our youthful belief in the ideals he was promoting in his credited authorship , his soap box comments , his open arms camaraderie with readers. Those of us with some knowledge of comics history , films and other pop culture entertainments were tolerant of Stan's recollections of creativity in the Origins books because we knew there was something more to it and were hoping pieces would fall into place. Stan was Marvel by right of nepotism and in his best Citizen Kane impression he would forget his humble oath of loyalty and purpose he envisioned Jack and Steve upholding with him once an empire came into being. It was uncomfortable to acknowledge Stan's pretentiousness in the footage you had once shown Alex with Stan attempting a discussion with college students and not one being of a minority identity , for someone who advocated for unbiased unity biased assumptions subconsciously revealed themselves. Like I said before Alex none of us were there with the trio or duo when the birth of costumed celebrity was taking form , none of us were in the conferences , at the lunch counters , on the phone , partaking of the public sights and sounds that could undoubtedly claim partial inspiration for images prosed and pictured. Witnesses can attest to the duo/trios physical presences but not to their verbal exchanges unless their are printed documents or audio recordings preserving them. Knowingly , willingly , unremorsefully committing contradiction to honorable actions encouraged is disappointing to say the least thereby souring continued comfort with publications that invoked an almost religious fervor in one to emulate the entities who reflected the higher standards. A theft was committed and condoned and now some condemn its existence encountering resistance. An empire's past glory erodes when its foundation is excavated and reveals contemptible premeditated motives.

[@1971mav]

Stan Lee was idea man but a mediocre writer. I seriously doubt he was super descriptive when coming up with a character. The artists contributed quite a lot in the creation of characters.