Star Citizen's Ship Combat Is About To Change - CIG's Principal Vehicle Programmer Opens Up

[@BoredGamerUK]

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[@dragonsforge8278]

I still don't understand how you can do tuning for ship to ship combat with no armor values. I feel like all its going to be is tuning a flight model that needs to be changed all over again. For instance, I would imagine a buccaneer armor value will be different from a gladius. Does that mean the buccaneer has more speed with the bigger engine while the gladius has better turn angles and front armor? Or really how it will affect quantum bubbles because no one wants to have a low armored ship when they come out of quantum because they have no shields. I'm all for moving forward with the game. And making changes and adjustments on the fly but if you don't know what the base of the ship is, I don't understand how you can create an Accurate flight model that you desire. I feel like at this point what's going to end up happening when we get HP on components that kill times will be astronomically faster in certain ways and maybe that's what they want to test out, what gets hit the most often and did the ship designers come up with a way to fix that via armor? But once mass comes in I'm sure it will have to change again. Especially turn radius or turn timing. Because it will affect forward momentum and turn angles. Because I imagine a cutlass black will have a different turn angle than a C1 spirit in or outside of atmosphere. Maybe I'm wrong and looking too into it. But if you tell me these ships are going to have armor and the weight of the ship matters, then how can you have a flight model that you need to change and change again?

[@kishkin8743]

Yeah, I speak to this on Spectrum all the time and people don't seem to understand how armor will affect all aspects of ship combat.

[@r3dexorcist184]

.... but armours already in the game for ships... please do ship testing on different things before saying ANYTHING next time. Please for the sake of the community 🙏

[@dragonsforge8278]

@@r3dexorcist184 so if this is true can you please direct me to the link of tier zero armor? 😮 Testing

[@dragonsforge8278]

@@r3dexorcist184 I just want to say that that's not a criticism. I do want that to be true. However everything I've read on updates coming out can't add an entire overhaul of the system in place As just a filler...

[@Cramblit]

@@r3dexorcist184 Armor is NOT in the game for ships.. That"Armor" is just the stupid hit points ships have.. That's it..

[@CosmicTurtle13]

They really need to lock down a flight model already.

[@chawkes70]

Come on dude its year 12 its far to soon to lock anything down j/k

[@donut3110]

It's only been 12yrs, they need more time to lock down the most basic mechanic in the entire game.

[@doomslayerforever2858]

been saying this since 3.2

[@blixx2374]

They can't until armor comes out because the weight of the ships will change anyway.

[@drivennale8551]

It really feels like there is a pretty big disconnect between what we as players want and what the devs want. and it feels like they're not really sure themselves.

[@Haegemon]

In their defense. They run the game in the development local net and they got more stuff in their rigs, so they see a different game than players in the PTU and Live.

[@Cramblit]

@@Haegemon That's not a defense, that's even worse. If you can't understand what the players want, and you're 10 freaking YEARS into development, and you still have no fking clue what you want... You have a very serious issue, and incompetence is part of that issue.

[@Howl-Runner]

​@@HaegemonThat's called an excuse. And not even your Lord CR knows what he wants. That's why there's so many half brained mechanics from Elite Dangerous and no man's sky. This game Is a joke.

[@Howl-Runner]

​@@Haegemonit's called incompetence.

[@griffinmckenzie7203]

​@@Howl-Runner Damn. Somebody got aggressive quickly. Get upset easily, huh?

[@elcockroach7328]

One thing I don't like about MM is that you have to decide between being defenseless and fast vs shielded/armd but slower. If you want to have a "combat mode" vs. a "non-combat mode" why not tweak accuracy/firepower/shield regeneration in both modes, with pros and cons for both? Why does it have tobe tuned up to the extremes? Maybe for sake of testing?

[@Haegemon]

They told about submodes. If they want to fix it, they always can add a sub-CTR mode where the ship goes faster while disabling weapons and shield regeneration but keeping the flares and the shield.

[@ryebreadreturn1]

Wow, a reasonably phrased critique of MM, you win the internet. I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. I think the all or nothing state things are currently in is an attempt to make it as simple as possible. It's much easier to understand what's going on if your shields completely don't work in Nav mode than if they kinda sorta work. So that's the first attempt and if that works out then that's perfect. If not then they have to make it more complicated for the sake of playability. But, you don't start out with the more complicated state, even if you think you might end up there, because you want as many things as possible to be as simple as possible, and you don't know ahead of time which things will work and which won't.

[@KazNDS]

I don’t actually understand the reason for implementing it. It seems like a strange fix for trichording and the AI defaulting to jousting a lot of the time.

[@radurusnac6962]

​@KazNDS let's be real, trichording didn't need fixing, and if you think that basic fucking understanding of basic math is "an exploit", you might want to check in with a psychiatrist

[@KazNDS]

@@radurusnac6962 i don’t even think i saw complaints about it outside of CIG themselves saying people were complaining about it

[@paradoxx451]

The old flight model was way better then MM. i think they should go back to the 6 points of freedom flight model then this version of 3 points of freedom. Xeno also highlighted the failures of this version of MM.

[@IdleWorker]

It still is 6dof. Its just that the main thruster is (appropriately) way stronger than the other thrusters.

[@paradoxx451]

@@IdleWorker the old flight model was 6 i dont know what this MM flight model is but it isnt 6 maybe 3.5-4 lol

[@IdleWorker]

@@paradoxx451 6dof means you can pitch up and down, yaw right and left, roll right and left, strafe up and down, strafe right and left, and "strafe" forward and back. This hasnt changed, what changed is the output all thrusters but the main thruster does.

[@paradoxx451]

@@IdleWorker that 100% changed. Call it thrust output or what ever you want. The flight model isnt the same. You cannot fly the same way like before. Tri-cording is no longer a thing. Ships now fly like they do in star wars not like battle star galactica.

[@IdleWorker]

@@paradoxx451 ofc its not the same. But its still 6dof, and trichording was dumb and should never have been in the FM to begin with.

[@thePrisoner1000]

I have been loving master modes, learning new tactics and just doing more ship combat more with less of the ridiculous jousting! It will be interesting what is coming up with the flight model and bring in blind jumping, no markers need, with master modes will be a fantastic help to get to places without markers and also a quick escape if needed.

[@RavingNut]

MM showed (one of) its extremally ugly sides during XT. Some poor players (almost myself and my team) would jump in (no shields of course) right next to (or on top of) the Idris battle. If you had been lucky you could get the shields up in time, if not they would hitch badly (or the game "seemed" to lock up). You would then catch up with the loading just to be destroyed suddenly, be it by the Idris battle nearby or some sweaty PVPers camping the jump in location.

[@OrionKaelinClips]

Damned if you do, dammed if you don't. They literally can't make everybody happy. Someone's not going to like something about any given thing and are more likely to voice it than those that are happy with how things are. I'm not 100% in on everything they've done but am happy with most of it and am interested or eager to see what further additions and balances are forthcoming. Also Im very happy with how much transparency we do get with the development of this game compared to most. Almost no game developers outside of indie (and even then a bit rare) has so much material about their entire process of development, both in the official content they put out and the often casual discussion you can have with some of the devs, and heads of teams/departments at that, from time to time like this. I hope they keep up the fantastic work and consider much of what the community says and asks, but doesn't just bow to pressure on certain issues if they believe they can make an implementation of something that is consider controversial into something better and balanced that msot can enjoy without issue.

[@carllong8954]

Sounds like turrets in space is the goal instead of starfighters in space

[@Thor_Asgard_]

Well no, its neither. Both have their role and a small fighter should never be able to take out a capital ship because of bad gamedesign.

[@johnzoidberg1160]

😂😂 do you always display your ignorance so boldly @carllong8954?

[@sailingdoughnut3544]

Words for the algorithm! And on a serious note congrats on moving places. Excited to see what boardgame content youll dish out.

[@reavern]

This is the problem with all game devs: THEY’RE OUT OF TOUCH! Despite how “open” Star Citizen’s game dev process is in terms of the weekly videos, articles, and interviews, the devs are still working inside their own little ECHO CHAMBERS. On the rare occasions they emerge from their lairs, like a former vampire seeing sunlight for the first time in years, they’re completely dismissive and contemptuous of the current terrible state of the game because they’re working a version or two ahead, and that’s all they care about. That basically means they NEVER take players’ feedback in account in the game dev process; they just arrogantly plow ahead leaving chaos and misery in their wake. For example, we’ve learned that CIG has changed the stats of ship weapons and components for 4.0. They’ve made those changes completely on their own (no SC community input) and it’s already done; it’s locked in and there’s no changing it. THIS IS THE PROBLEM! WHY didn’t CIG have an Arena Commander play-test (similar to “Experimental Mode” for Master Modes in 3.20’s Arena Commander) for players to try out 4.0’s ship weapon and components changes!? Let hundreds or thousands of players try out the 4.0 changes and provide their feedback, and CIG should actually listen and tweak things accordingly. NOPE, CIG knows best, as players’ reaction to Master Modes will attest. 🙄

[@itorca]

This should be a spectrum post 📯

[@beardedbarnstormer9577]

Lol go build your own game then ? There's more in this then what your myopic view of the platform is

[@itorca]

@@beardedbarnstormer9577 why you trying to shut people down who want devs to hear criticism and complaint with the current project. It's like cutting down a forest to kill a squirrel when you could just shoot the squirrel. Also why divide and shrink the community by having possibly talented people make new and separate projects. Addressing issues and criticism is one thing but telling people to go away is going to kill star citizen. I hope that in your later maturity and wisdom you see this as an error. But more likely your going to get some sort of feelings and tell me what I can shove up my ass or commit some act of fellatio on some defunct part of your sexual anatomy. If so save it. Unless you have new material I'll ignore it.

[@reavern]

@@beardedbarnstormer9577 How is “go build your own game then ?” a question? 🤔 It seems that enough people Liked by post that you’re just the one sycophantic outlier. Good luck with that!

[@beardedbarnstormer9577]

@@reavern wow you get your affirmation from random people on the Internet. It's clear you're not an engineer nor have you ever worked on a multimillion dollar platform. Your opinion is just that an opinion. It's whiny and annoying to people that have to listen to self righteous ass clowns like you spout off about how much you know about something you've never done. Good luck with that

[@dkphantomdk]

I enjoy the new mastermodes, yes it requires a bit more tuning.. overall, its a good improvements from "not having it"

[@daethwing188]

Honestly, I was never one of the ace combat fliers to begin with, so my impressions of combat changes have come more from weapon rebalancing than the flight changes, but I hate what mastermodes has done to the flight model, especially for any sort of flying decoupled, be it in or out of combat. I feel momemtum should be maintained, not artificially bled off. If i want to risk zooming backwards to attack pursuing targets, I feel we should be able to without penalty. I just want to have it feel like Battlestar Galactica or The Expanse. I really dislike the feel of this new flight model.

[@Deathjester01]

One thing that I don't understand is that if SQ42 is 'almost ready', then why are things like flight controls still wide open in terms of modifications?

[@XeroJin84]

Feature complete just means the feature that’s needed has been coded and working to a certain degree. Doesn’t mean it’s good or will stay in it. Though, I’m sure they currently want all the features to stay; like the failure that’s Master Modes.

[@Haegemon]

Open in terms of tweking, not changing or adding more features. What is in, will stay in. That's in the polishing phase they are now.

[@FastEagle301]

I like the 6 dof we had, BUT - light fighters shouldnt dominate everything as it used to be. This at least helped with that (MM)

[@FunkThompson]

Tuning and balance will continue, until morale improves :D Keep in mind, too, they literally can't make *everyone* happy.

[@Falcon_00_7]

I agree that the time to kill shouod be adjusted for some ships but i am somewhat concerned about his comments on the speed of the fight. It seems like they don't really know themselves, what their goal avtually is, or should be. Furthermore, i believe, that some of the problems are more related to basic design decisions than balance. For example, while i can live with the master modes system, i think it should be adjusted. Especially the removal of all shields in Nav mode is something i really dislike. Atleast let the ships have some shields in nav mode (like 25-50% or so) so that they are not fully defenseless and you can consider whether you want to switch modes and fight or just try to run.

[@emoney7472]

If people don't get it by now everything they do is unfinished and always in the future. Kind of funny that it still works and even better then ever.

[@rlabare823]

Master Modes feels clunky... like someone said earlier, the change between SCM and Nav is abrupt. I'm trying to adapt but I feel like I'm learning to drive stick all over.

[@mediz3981]

I'm missing gimbled mode. Also, disabling shields while in nav mode is ridiculous.

[@olivierrun8364]

Can't wait to try it !

[@loneventhorizon]

The cutlass is make of glass already. Couldn't last 2 minutes in the xenothreat.

[@JohnVanderbeck]

But it DOES feel like we are flying debug camera! The base problem is still that thrusters are too strong and unrealistic. Just watch video of something like an Idris jump away from a dock. I don't understand how SC of all games has done such a bad job of simulating proper mass and momentum given it has been done so well in many other space games.

[@thehonorablebandit]

I wonder how slower combat is going to affect all the snubs.

[@thrakor]

For the casual game that I am, the new combat system is more fun!

[@Arbyfig]

I feel it takes pretty long to kill targets with the way the game has gone with the damage, I think master modes is alright, I have done a lot of strafing already while using it in fights

[@MikeStojanovic]

I really don't think they've settled on anything. They can't decide whether the game should be big ship or small ship combat.

[@revmikeyArd]

I am having a lot of fun experiencing the game as it continues to develop. And I know this opinion makes me not one of the cool kids; I really want auto gimbals for pilot weapons to come back online lol other than that, I've been liking the master modes for the most part.

[@darken6397]

I can't wait to see what's new in 4.0

[@ianwilson4286]

I do not see why any CIG members ever talk to us. Everything they say is turned around on them in a bad way. If we keep doing this less and less will be stated.

[@chipanda3814]

Why the fluff is an audio engineer incharge of space combat

[@Cheshirrsky]

I can't wait to see the changes that are coming. But Yogi's words about the speed of the fight make me worry.

[@johnzoidberg1160]

I'm excited. He's right on track. People are going to freak out, but it's headed in the right direction. Example, you have a slightly better chance of killing Avenger 1 now than you did pre-mastermodes. That's a really good thing. Slower combat is a way better thing than having no hope against experienced players.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

I understand what he's saying. In my Connie I can nuke small ships in just a few shots with the cannons. In my Hawk it takes a long time to take down some ships, even small ships. I still need to figure out the right weapons for it so the pop feels right and doesn't take forever.

[@oFFtheWall518]

I was behind MM until I actually flew with them. The top speed of the MSR is completely useless now that you are forced to engage without the benefit of armor. I'm sure it's not the only ship effected, but it's the ship I fly the most. Flying in general feels a lot worse, everything feels so sluggish, which I guess is what they're going for...?

[@XeroJin84]

I was flying the 600i; sitting duck. Might as well just remove the weapons on it.

[@Haegemon]

The bigger the ship, the slower it will be. They want them to move like sea ships instead of planes. The MSR is not a combat ship anyways. The guide says courier ship.

[@belowaverage7539]

@@XeroJin84 Same thing in my connie. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

[@corey1563]

@@Haegemon corsair isn't a combat ship either lol. The best pve ship in the game

[@battlefieldelite1]

@@Haegemon The Avenger Titan is a "courier" ship too, yet it's probably the single best PVE ship in the game right now due to the changes.

[@FabledDragon]

my main gripe with flight model is the hard switch between SCM and NAV, i feel it needs to be a smoother transition, a gradual move with a soft resistance, and a change in engine sound as it hits surplus speed

[@italydude515]

Nah, it's a speed brake. Love it

[@calebstephens3182]

I agree. It was too great a loss to me to give up accelerating to max from parked.

[@ashhawk2346]

​@@italydude515 Absolutely, It's the BEST Speed brake! So helpful.

[@pxkqd]

The sudden NAV to SCM speed break should be removed. Some people may like it, but it's like liking a cheat because it makes some challenge trivial. If the issue was not wanting the high inertia to be available in SCM, the solution is to force the pilot to slow down before being able to switch to SCM.

[@cloudfan362]

@@italydude515lol same with landing gear

[@mmmbe3r893]

I've tried and tried to like it but still hate master mode. I find combat horrible, slow and now struggle with solo gameplay (not a fan of running in groups)

[@Haegemon]

(not a fan of running in groups) Find a ship that requires less crew.

[@CoolPapaKMagic]

SCM speeds are so slow right now.

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

Yogi wants to make them slower.

[@johnschmidt763]

Yogi wants to make the flight model “more egg shaped”, not necessarily slower. I would imagine thrusting will stay the same or increase in speed while strafing will reduce in speed

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

@@johnschmidt763 he specifically said combat is too fast, and he's going to slow it down again.

[@johnschmidt763]

@@Roboticus_Prime_RC good to know. He also mentioned roll and turn speeds being reduced as well as more bounce - which I think is that thing that happens when you fly in atmosphere.

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

@johnschmidt763 it baffles me that he only wants to make the flight worse.

[@John_Krone]

Too many modes. Over-complicated. Restrictive. Have you ever seen space sci-fi where switching a mode to fire guns hits the brakes?? I imagine only in a comedy. Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek never did that. Horrible

[@SouthernIroc85]

Even WING COMMANDER

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

Yogi is going to kill this game. He's bending it to fit his AC meta he wants. Which flies in the face of EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME. Especially when death of a spaceman comes in. He only cares about fighter combat. He's also having to whack-a-mole "fixes" to force his arcade playstyle.

[@andrewfanner2245]

He thinks, one deduces, that SC is multiplayer Sq42. Compulsory win or die combat is small fighters.

[@Haegemon]

@@andrewfanner2245 CIG decided SC will be a multiplayer SQ42. Both games will share the UI and the physics so players of Squadron can after lean towards SC and fit in smothly.

[@andrewfanner2245]

@Haegemon which is a problem. In Sq42, which is Wing Commander 202? edition, combat is totally integral to the game, a requirement for progression. Being a solo game, console is in marketing folks' heads. So we get a scenario where trying to flee from combat, make a high speed withdrawal to charge shields or whatever is heavily penalised to discourage same. You have essentially two combat speeds now, max SCM and boost. Non combat ships, which are essentially absent from Sq42 as playable entitles are shafted without even the courtesy of lube. In SC out in eg a Vulture and some wannabe in an Arrow comes looking to seal club the Vulture driver needs the option to QT away because that's the only intelligent call. Not a fight the Vulture can win so.not one he should enter. "Drop shields and count to ten" isn't what anyone would call balanced or even something that could only be discovered in testing. Evidence that the basic concept is flawed. Ditto Prospector, the classic starter ships (and some of the more expensive ones), the Mole, Hull A, the list goes on. SC is not just about fighter jocks playing Luke Skywalker and holding the line. And we get the Spinning Wheel Of Indecision and the "F" that's never where you want it and a revised quick loot for the COD players, a UI that should have been tested fir actual useability rather than be signed off because "ooh shiny".

[@Adam-vb3rt]

I can't believe CIG is fiddling around with the flight model and combat. I joined in 2016 and flight/combat in 2.6 felt better than most of the updates since then. It really makes me wonder how they expect to release Squadron 42 if they're still tinkering with the core systems.

[@Runic-Raven]

Since Master Modes and the now overpowered NPC Ships, i completely stopped Ship combat and limit myself to ground Combat but after doing that for half an hour i usually get bored and stop playing.. so now i'm playing much less and thus spend no more money.

[@Jinnxx79]

I have stopped playing all together since 3.23. I will check back in when 4.0 drops. I'm hoping it gets better.

[@sheetpostmodernist398]

@@Jinnxx79 Same, I'm taking a long hiatus until they fix flight and rebalance everything so ship combat is actually enjoyable again. Everything in 3.23 feels miserable to fly.

[@Thor_Asgard_]

I like MM. But the game needs AI blades and NPC crew very much, even in my big org its pretty clear.

[@CMDR_MURR]

Definitely want blades and npc crew. Would be nice to do my solo cargo runs with turret protection 😅

[@Haegemon]

Somewhere many years ago was told, players will have 1 customizable NPC guaranted with their package. Which means other NPCs aren't guaranted.

[@Thor_Asgard_]

@@Haegemon wasnt it onl packages you use, over your first purchase ?

[@flipzie2641]

MM needs a lot of work still. I still like the older flight system more because of high speed, high adrenaline like a f1 car. I'm kinda warming up to master modes though, but it needs a good amount of work. Also the game is so buggy.

[@mrdashin8323]

So basically mm isn't good and yogi is trying to figure out how to salvage his design.

[@rabidchinchilla]

Ha!😂

[@RoyBelmont]

it sounds like he is actually doubling down on the issues and wanting to make it "faster" by making you die faster instead of upping the speed lmao. MM is a F U C K I N G mess imo.

[@andrewfanner2245]

There's a tradition that you can't polish a turd. Yogi needs to put down the Brasso and buffing rag.

[@michaelweaver4439]

Yogi has no choice MM is dictated by its inclusion in sq42. They have moved MM over from squadron where it feels great as a flight mechanic for a single player space shooter (wing commander). It was never designed for SC and yogi is doing a valiant effort to integrate it and justify it to the player base.

[@rabidchinchilla]

@@michaelweaver4439 ...and failing

[@vulcan4d]

My biggest fear is that after 15years of waiting this game will turn out feeling like boring work. I hope they "tune" it to feel like a game.

[@TheThorJunki]

Thanks for the update! Hopefully the changes make combat a bit more fluid. 3.18 was great and do miss that style especially with the current jarring motions/"bouncing" enemy ships do

[@ThomasD66]

Sadly the more Yogi talks the LESS confidant I am that CIG know what they are doing or even how to get it done.

[@Haegemon]

They want MM. That's crystal clear.

[@club2772]

@@Haegemonit’s not that simple. You know that. Think about what makes sc special and ask why they’re trying to make flight combat feel like Star Wars or other space games. You’re leaving a lot of potential behind by chasing that goal.

[@vamperic]

@@club2772 Uhhh...their goal was always WW2/Star Wars etc

[@Sattorin]

@@vamperic Their goal was always a newtonian model, it's right there in the Kickstarter. Additionally, you can look up Chris Roberts' explanation of the flight model: search Flight-Model-And-Input-Controls

[@griffinmckenzie7203]

​​@@club2772 You must be new... lmfao

[@d14lonestar]

Been having a good time prospector mining this patch. Relatively few issues.

[@RavingNut]

Same for me in the MOLE, been a bit extreme though when XT is running, and you get server lag (every now and then) 😅

[@nikoulph]

same here but than they pushed the small patch 3.23.1a that brought nothing new and erased all my refinery jobs...

[@felixthomassin3791]

I really like the (more) realistic 6 degree of Freedom approach to Star Citizens space combat… I really like that it doesn‘t feel like Star Wars

[@TransamJc]

Actually it supposed to feel like Star Wars!

[@Angel___________________]

​​@@TransamJc Just play war thunder, battlefront, or squadrons.

[@felixthomassin3791]

@@TransamJc Well… then they clearly should have chosen another approach… Star Wars Ships fly like they are in atmosphere, ALWAYS! Star Citizen has lateral motion, as well as up and down in space, that doesnt exist in Star Wars. I think the real problem is that CIG doesnt know, what they want… They want a 6 Degree of Freedom game that feels like Star Wars… but the two aren‘t compatible. AvengerOne has an interesting video on the topic…

[@TransamJc]

@@felixthomassin3791 watched that video the problem is CR. CR wants all the cinematic scenes like Star Wars. Which is defined by squadron

[@TransamJc]

@@Angel___________________ played it. Plus flying aces high!

[@I3ladefist]

'placeholder' kinda too many of em in sc right now :(

[@RedKing1337]

Yeah I did a group battle for XT with the boys we had like 4 gladiators and one in the turret and it took a days to kill things

[@r3dexorcist184]

That sounds like a skill issue you an your buddies have friendo. Why push that onto others an say that's "how it is"?

[@RedKing1337]

@@r3dexorcist184 lol idk looked like contestant hits. Ships were all stock though also. Felt like ttk was a bit to high but idk stats of each ship tbh

[@j.d.4697]

So? The event was made for dozens of people, not 5 in crappy Gladiators.

[@SonosAzai]

I'm horrible at ship combat and the arrows/gladiators all died in one pass with my sabre, I think ttk is far too short

[@RedKing1337]

It was definitely fun to have a group in matching ships but idk anything about the gladiator. Catch me out there with a fury 🤪

[@MastaZasta]

Love him or hate him, Avenger_one had the right of it. Either do a 3DOF flight model or a 6DOF flight model. "Whole ass one thing." -Ron Swanson. As opposed to baby-ing new players, make Arena Commander more robust with in depth tutorials, about aiming, maneuvering, etc. New players will likely appreciate and want to master an in depth, fast paced 6DOF fighter. It's absolutely unique and would set the game apart in too many ways to count!

[@undersmack648]

TOO FAST??? HOLY CRAP!!! Do they want us fighting in 60s VW Beetles???

[@Cramblit]

Accelaration is way way waaaaaaaay to fast in Star Citizen. Not the top speeds, but just how fast you can get to top speed. There is no skill, or mastering flight, when the ceiling and floor of the skill is press acceleration for .02 seconds to get top speed, and point and click. This also makes ships impossible to balance, and impossible to have them all be different with their own different personalities if everything is so tight. Can't have a fighter with amazing acceleration compared to the others, if all the others are acceleration just .5 seconds slower than you. Can't have a fighter with slow acceleration and amazing top speed over the others, if again, that acceleration is only .5 seconds slower than the others.

[@jaykay5838]

@@Cramblit These are space ships, just how slow should they accelerate? Why would anyone design a ship to accelerate slowly?

[@zolmazzoboto6085]

Maybe 1972 Pintos. (BOOM)

[@Cramblit]

@@jaykay5838 it's also a fking game. Deal with it. If we did everything exactly realistic, this game would be so boring, you wouldn't play it.

[@baalz-lo9xd]

yea i have no idea whats going on in their heads at this point.... hell i don't think they even have a plan at this point.

[@The_Fallen_1]

IMO, while balance is a problem, I think the bigger problems with combat at the moment are due to design decisions with Master Modes. The removal of shields while in Nav mode has only seen more and more issues come to light. Jumping into XT was the big one for me, where you are suddenly inside a combat zone with absolutely no defences, and most people are having their game somewhat freeze so they can't do anything, so they're just stuck there taking fire on their hull unable to do anything about it and simply dying. While that is partly an optimisation issue, it's also simply just bad design.

[@slandshark]

The real big BIG problem with the entire game is that dying is too easy. Specifically ships exploding is WAY to common. It should be one of the least common events in the game, ships actually exploding. Soft death/disabling makes way more sense. Until then ships are just expendable items in the game, which are more or less instantly replaceable. This removes the use of any in-ship cargo system too since you'll likely lose the ship entirely to any combat.

[@Nerd_Detective]

I agree on this. I'm fine with shields being debuffed I'm nav mode, but there should be something there. Ships are TOO vulnerable in nav mode.

[@Haegemon]

@@slandshark Because there is versions of the game, I think in the PTU the ships reach a soft death stat instead of instantly exploding. Eventually this will work properly in the Live version.

[@dsch1znit]

MM has made balance totally unreachable by slowing ships down too much and completely removing the ability to defensively maneuver them. . The only way you can possibly find balance with this shit flight model is by making every ship have the exact same DPS, HP, etc... Defensive maneuvering is completely impossible at this point and fighting has become as simple as aiming and shooting. Cig has essentially made ships like the Razor, M50, Fury, etc etc etc completely useless. These ships were great in Legacy because of their maneuverability and tiny cross section, now they are murdered the moment they enter SCM mode.

[@hitmanstallion2697]

You do realize so long as your shield was charged up prior to your jump upon exiting the jump and transferring back to SCM your shields instantly fill right?

[@pie4489]

Too fast is crazy I don't want to be outracing a ship in a fucking bike.

[@wmouse]

Ironically the news about Master Modes got me to try SC for the first time, because what I had *heard* about SC PvP ship combat was that it had all sorts of gimmicky mechanics like tricording and was only for the super sweaty HOSAS tryhards. But now that I've looked beyond the surface, it does sound like the space combat gameplay was better off before Master Modes. I'm barely on day 3 (and having fun in spite of things) and I already see how switching between NAV and SCM feels bad.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

I'm glad, there's people like you. The thing is these "gimmicky" mechanics like trichording weren't actually gimmicky at all. It was simply what would naturally happen if you apply thrust in two different directions at the same time. It is simple vector addition. What they did now is overlay it with an artificial acceleration limiter that feels completely unintuitive and unrealistic. That's what I'd call gimmicky

[@wmouse]

@@_Anaklysmos_ My problem with it in particular is that *if* trichording was actually a thing then the ship designers would have taken that into account and made sure that the ship had the maximum thrust along its "lift" vector, because that's the best for the pilot. Alternatively the thrust might be generated internally and vented through the thrusters, in which case the acceleration is going to be about the same whether applied in in a single axis or in multiple. Which is also more intuitive and IMO just more aesthetically pleasing from a game design standpoint.

[@SashaNaronin]

Tricording is basically holding down 3 buttons at same time lol

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@SashaNaronin well, yes in practice it is just that. However, it is what would naturally happen if you apply multiple axes of thrust

[@wmouse]

@@SashaNaronin I know it's probably not a big deal to most people but I find that aesthetically displeasing. This is a gimmick from old FPS games and it's trivial to write code that doesn't have this behavior. (It's also not about realism; I've heard the realism argument but it doesn't check out.) I'd probably make tricording a thing for the alien ships though just to make them feel different.

[@jakerusmaximus6916]

While we are in CIG's hands on this, I can only hope that balance is done correctly. There should be a reason to crew a gunboat, and a fighter should not pick a fight well above its weight class. Idk if a rock paper scissors model is the correct way to go, but each ship should feel like its size and role mean something.

[@Jack0trades]

Former US Navy F-14 RIO here... I also did a couple of decades designing and coding physics and AI for air combat military sims and games. The problem with master modes is not as simple as maximum speeds. It has everything to do with the expectation that your velocity (speed with direction vector) will be at least somewhat close to your orientation. This is a defining constraint that has dictated the turning fight dynamic of all dogfights to date. The extreme angle-of-attack (AOA) capabilities of thrust vectoring fighters like the F-22 has dramatically changed that recently, but even those planes are limited in when and how long they can do those eye-watering tricks. Your airspeed drops dramatically (at least in atmo) when you do that and you are a sitting duck for any other bandits in the area that you didn't just kill. So - constrained AOA makes a fight feel like a WWII dogfight. Of course this is completely unnecessary - at least physically - in a vacuum and outside of a gravity well. But then we also limit your velocity in a completely arbitrary way and everyone accepts that as necessary - for fun gameplay. And I completely agree. So why not limit your effective AOA for the same reason? The CIG code team could limit pitch and yaw rates based on your speed so that your lateral and ventral/dorsal thrusters can keep up with an automatic retro thrust demand to keep your velocity at least somewhat aligned with your ship orientation. They can ignore this at lower speeds and ramp it up gradually at higher speeds. This would give them plenty of room to tune different craft based on their maximum acceleration capability in each axis as well as their maximum allowable AOA in pitch vs yaw. Now, you have slower ships that are limited by pitch and yaw rate and faster fighters that limit themselves in those rates based on their current speed. One possible way to do this is to simply limit a ship's velocity along each axis independently. They already do this with the resultant velocity (speed), but if you do this with body-space x, y, and z velocities independently, and enforce those limits by both an automatic decel in body-space x, y and z, and also by dynamically limiting pitch, yaw, and roll changes so that they don't violate these limits - then you have a simple model that can be tuned to make more agile ships maneuver like fighters and others move more ponderously, like warships.

[@snoop_lion]

Most people: this flying is too damn slow. You: actually turning and yawing should be even SLOWER. Incredible.

[@Rehd66]

@@snoop_lion Any flying in any game feels slow with nothing to reference your position with

[@algroyp3r]

As a combat flight sim player, here's what makes SC fights absolutely boring and simple: with low speeds and unlimited AOA, people just point at each other and lazily float through space. It's just a head-on simulator, the winner is determined by weapons and ship durability, not flying skills or aim.

[@piedpiper1172]

@@snoop_lionNo, he’s right. We currently call the flight too slow specifically because it is too slow to allow for out turning the enemy. All fights are head-on-dps races. It’s not possible to maneuver faster than your opponent can change their ship’s AOA. Limiting the speed at which you change AOA would take us back to being able to evade incoming fire via maneuver. It would also restore the feeling of flying faster than we do now, as it would be all about staying on the limits of the ships. It would accomplish the goals of returning skill based flight and of raising the overall skill floor. Fights would be slow enough for new players to at least understand what happened, but allow for enough speed for skill expression.

[@realWorsin]

As a backer for the past 12 years. DO NOT BUY THIS GAME YET. I am done defending SC. This game is BROKEN AS FUCK.

[@michaelhagedorn1900]

I don't hate MM but I liked the old system way better.

[@SpaceDad42]

The old system was garbage too. Always has been.

[@dex6147]

​@SpaceDad42 I triggered a few people when last patch I often stated "The only thing worse than live, is MM." Would have been a much better direction to improve the old model than MM IMO

[@Haegemon]

@@dex6147 But they WANT modes.

[@Rivenexta]

Simply, If I have 3 AD4Bs, I should be shredding frighters

[@thespacemonkey1000]

I wonder what their ultimate vision is for space combat. I am not super thrilled with space combat between fighters being over so quick but I guess we will see what happens

[@kyelsavage6296]

As of right now, I hate MM. Too many button presses and Higher percentage to make mistakes while changing modes. 1000 years in the future should not be a step back in controlling your vehicles. IMO, master modes is a lazy and cheap way to handle combat. It's disheartening to me that combat is being dumbed down to this point. I'm OK with being a marginal pilot. But all the speeds being dependent on modes sucks when I'm trying to land my ship. And every time I have to switch modes, my velocity limiter resets to the default. I'm getting more and more frustrated with my experience lately, and I have been playing less often. It makes me sad.

[@skmo7072]

If it gets any slower and closer it’s going to be a battle to see who’s better at parking. It was way better before they halved scm speeds years ago.

[@johnzoidberg1160]

😂 no it wasn't

[@joshuaf.3723]

Too fast? Only "small" tweaks to weapons?? I feel like the guys that left the company had the right direction, and now CIG is ruled by the arcade dweebs. Too focused on S42, maybe?

[@allWorkAndNoJake]

Master modes sucks. The old flight model was more intuitive and more fun. There HAS to have been a better way to improve the fun of the game for less-sweaty players than simply raising the PVP skill floor by gamifying the flight model. And if the combat needed fixed, there has to have been better ways than gamifying the whole ship flying experience. The mode transitions feel arbitrary. And the ships feel so fake now. It's as if they forgot everything they ever said about the game being a "game". Like, there are other activities besides pvp for players who haven't yet mastered combat. It would be ok if pvp had a relatively high skill floor if the rest of the game existed.

[@e56hdyhdfgh]

My favorite thing about MM (compared to the old system) is being able to absolutely rocket at 1425m/s in my avenger for instance and still be able to essentially full stop in a few seconds just by swapping to guns mode. Not sure which I prefer overall, but I will say this new system feels much more "cheesy" or arcade like, rather than the previous which felt more intricate. Again, not saying that is inherently a bad thing. I am going to try and not get too attached to these models, because if anything, it is obviously up in the air for change.

[@XeroJin84]

That’s not a good thing. Makes absolutely no sense in terms of physics. It’s an arcade mode if you can go 1425m/s and fully stop in seconds just by flipping a switch.

[@steppahouse]

I never hear anything about situational awareness in ship to ship combat. When it's just you vs NPCs in missions, that's bad enough, but if two orgs tussle, even a handful of ships closing on another handful of enemy ships is nearly impossible to manage. There's no overview, not even for copilots or captain seats. Not saying that will be the case forever, but I never hear anyone ever talk about it and it's absolutely crucial.

[@11sHangar]

This is primarily because situational awareness is beyond the comprehension of a large part of the player base and CIG is trying to cater to that. Over the years I've witnessed the more intellectual or thinking type of people abandon this title while current streamers and content creators usher in the zombies. Stay Frosty!

[@steppahouse]

@@11sHangar I have a better opinion of the play base then. I don't think of most of them as casual twitch types. Most are FPP PUBG rather than TPP Fortnite, to coin an analogy. Having some sort of overview that's more useful than the various placeholder radar displays is important. I didn't think we need something like Eve Online's system, though, maybe in certain ship stations it would be, but Elite has something that's at least passable: an interactive list of all local contacts. That's really all I'm looking for.

[@Haegemon]

Overview is something that may come in Capital ships. The Idris has the Navigation station in the middle of the bridge. And makes sense a Fleet Commander is leading from there.

[@wannahit9357]

In my opinion, this game will be forever broken as long as we have fake Master Modes flight combat which basically turns the game from a space sim in , NAV Mode (Except for the fake decoupling now) to an arcade space combat game of planes in space instead of true space simulation like this game is supposed to be and was always sold as. Master modes with speeds reductions, kills the magic of the game!

[@Archmage9885]

NPC ships feel very bullet spongy with master modes. When missiles actually hit they seem to deal a good amount of damage though.

[@RavingNut]

Combat is faster than he wants it to be? a fare few people are already at an impasse on how slow it has become. I know they want to aim for a WW2 like fighting in atmo, but any slower and it will be WW1 biplane speeds.

[@piedpiper1172]

That’s deeply insulting to biplanes.

[@Dark_Icarus]

In general, non combat oriented players tend to destroy games with combat gameplay, the want the same invulnerability of solo games in an MMO, so they could make docens of stupid mistakes and still run away safe and sound, guys, bad news, if SC stay as an Open PvP game, you will need to make less stupid mistakes to survive.

[@Grum_Be]

Would answer some questions to see the devs playing and testing the game, usually either they know every intricate detail like FF14 devs or nothing at all like D4 devs.

[@gravity00x]

ita the latter. but the dude cant admit that his design flopped and he costed the company millions of dollars plus the risk of costing them another bag of millions on a potentially flopped design. theyd do best to 🔥 him and get someone who knows what they are doing at all.

[@liethelieyerhonsta2789]

I would love it if you did not have a hard switch between NAV and SCM. Just turn off weapons when I reach a certain speed and turn them back on when I am slow enough. Something like putting more power to engines as speed goes up not leaving enough for gun operation

[@MrDecelles]

My Mercury star runner is not currently fun and a current deathtrap. Hard to play and get excited for star citizen.

[@CopperRavenProductions]

Turn weapons off, put it in shields and speed. Use it for bunker missions with nursa, or cargo and or contra band runs. It has been a blast

[@maggnas]

You should try the Valkyrie pops in 1 to 2 hits

[@Haegemon]

Well, it needs 3 people only to defend itself. Plus an engineer. Otherwise indeed is a deathtrap.

[@beatworldrecords6080]

If they've ever flown a cutlass, they are terrible in combat. Do no damage, get outmaneuvered and are made of paper with external engines that throw you into a deathspin if you lose one. What does he mean that it's too tanky? They've been butchering my baby boy for patches and it feels intentional.

[@Oluabayo]

It's constantly changing so no worries.

[@CruentusV]

dogfighting worked. it was very close to ideal. there were a lot of players who could not learn the basics or get a feel for it, but it worked - almost. the idea of changing the mechanics for it to be more inclusive to more players' personal abilities was a bad (and made roberts's original intention for the game, as stated a decade ago, an outright lie). if they felt nerfing the game physics important, they ought to have left it as it was until devs thought the new, less realistic version felt "right", not because of any extremely arbitrary deadline...

[@eddyfortin9329]

I hate the direction of MM, also changing mode sucks! Crashed yesterday just cause i retracted my landing gear(by accident) and ship whent from 0 to 200ms into the wall!

[@BSPotter]

I don't like master modes at all. Maybe as you increase your ship's speed past a certain point it draws power from the shields and weapons making them less effective but not disabled. Switching modes, at least the current model, is not fun gameplay.

[@xtwixxbydesign]

I'm enjoying Master Modes, and I mainly do industrial work. Although I did play xenothreat, and besides the frame rate issue, it was a good time.

[@chrispittom9169]

I haven't fought enough to make a decision on the latest mastermode setup, but I have noticed ai pilots still trying to ram... I thought this was meant to have been resolved? The missile lock bug is very annoying too.

[@merlinfanboy556]

I wish they told us a bit more about the direction they're headed in regard to combat. What they're essentially telling us is "trust us, it's gonna be good" - but we can't see it yet.

[@r3dexorcist184]

We have an they've shown us exactly what we're getting... have you not been watching Inside Star Citizen for the past year?

[@SuperAndyyyy]

do we get a say in any development seeing as we are funding the game or is it only for the devs ?

[@XeroJin84]

devs do what they want. They probably complain about the feedback and call us “stupid” amongst each other.

[@Fortunes_Irregulars]

Im sick of mastermodes, its an awful flight model for an open world sandbox. It'll work fine for squadron, just not SC.

[@davidhoifeldt1766]

I feel like most people got used to, and even decent with the older flight model, and that skews perspective. I think the new changes have potential and are moving in the right direction. I have my own peeves that came out with this iteration, but it's also a new build and this will need multiple passes of massaging and molding the model to have the same kind of refinement it had built up to prior. And it's not wholly different, much of it feels pretty similar, with lower speed limits. Like the rest of SC development, it's a new progression, a new bake, and we should see where it goes. And of course keep giving _,constructive_ feedback.

[@red8ball864]

I still can't understand why they changed how u jump, what was wrong with holding b?

[@UncleRayRayGarageEmporium]

I'm a brand new player who got started as MM was put in place. Feels natural to me and makes sense. I have no idea what it used to be like. Perhaps having a flight engineer could return a more adjustable or fine tuned mode? That would provide a lucrative position on crewed vessels

[@BreandanOCiarrai]

It's the difference between Babylon 5 and (to a lesser extent) the Battlestar Galactica reboot's use of Newtonian physics in space combat vs. Star Wars' WWII dogfights in space. At this point in my personal experience without armour implemented in the game the biggest guns/multicrew win and the ships that were notable for their speed and maneuverability are just sitting ducks and pointless. I've actually seen MORE jousting and MORE gun platforming with MM than before, which was what MM was supposed to get rid of. Why get an Arrow when it'll just be offed in a second by Mom's Minivan (Freelancer) due to the turret and ability to shield tank and rotate while you try desperately to outmaneuver what is basically a sitting gun platform that can't be killed in time? They'll have to come back and completely overhaul MM again once armour is in, and it's going to be a mess yet again at that point while they get it sorted

[@MikhailRomantsov]

I joined in October last year, when pre-3.23 flight model was in place. It took longer getting used to, but felt so good when actually flying it. When 3.23 hit, not only did aiming get worse, flying your ship felt very limited. Imagine yourself freefalling. You can use different poses in a free fall, like extending your arms and legs to fall slower, or facing downwards and retracting your arms and legs to fall faster. That's the kind of move that makes you feel like having more freedom of movement. With 3.23 it feels like it doesn't matter how you align, how you retract your arms/legs, whether you face downwards or falling with your arms and legs extended, you kinda fall down all at the very same speed. It feels all too unnatural and restricts your movement, that's what makes it more "arcady" and boring.

[@aka-47k]

yeah they pushed half baked changes out and now lots of pple not happy. then again supposedly they baked this for 2 years.

[@whoopsgaming]

Just got into the game and im addicted, cant get enough of the ship combat. excited to see what the future holds!

[@Kapnoullas]

MM is simply not fun to the core. Switching modes and the new flight model is a sad regression to the game.

[@jamesaspinall9248]

Not liking Master Modes. Seems like very little thought was put into what it does to everyone's experience. Makes flight a mess and adds an extra unneeded layer of keys needed to do basic things.

[@CaptTsubasa09]

It’s absolute jank. Feels like the stop start engine of cars when u stop at the traffic light.

[@JollygreenFullSteam]

Bruh if they slow the speeds down even more I'm selling my account.

[@jessepounds8172]

Why are they constantly trying to kill the cutlass that’s my only ship I actually own in the game

[@divinelyshpongled]

I absolutely love MM combat. Feels much more balanced and that now we actually need to work together with our team mates to win a battle. Feels like each ship is more specialized at specific tasks.. like a class

[@sebastienjonas4984]

I feel exactly the opposite. Before I would never have thought about bringing a heavy fighter against light fighters, now it's the case.

[@unlicensed_camera]

yes no need for left stick anymore just point and shoot like a floating turret ! or m and k just hit w and point and click, no more skill needed !

[@johncoffee1313]

It will be interesting to see where they go with master modes beyond this initial flight model. Honestly, playing with master modes hasn’t been that bad for me but it’ll be nice to see more refinement

[@Mike5Brown]

Yeah his responses did not actually make me feel very confident about where dog fighting is going. I don't actually have a problem with master modes I understand why combat speeds need to be a bit slower to make the game more accessible and to help the servers. Making navigation mode a form of quantum travel helps with the distances that we will be forced to travel.

[@BGIANAKy]

Yogi is out of touch.

[@Xaldarus]

I wish the fighter combat was more like Babylon 5; where you're able to see what you're firing at, your energy blasts actually have some size to them, and decreased rate of fire. That's what I think would be perfect rather than chasing pips at a vague shape in the distance. Just me though.

[@BreandanOCiarrai]

B5 had Newtonian physics in their space battles, which Chris wants to move away from and towards WWII dogfights in space. So I doubt we'll see that in the end.

[@snowmind]

Massive respect to CIG for allowing it and to Yogi for taking the time and being transparent with the community, while relaying their future plans in so many different fora. Usually that job is reserved for the Todd's and the Spencer's of an organisation!

[@yulfine1688]

I think a lot of it comes down to trying to understand how they want the game to play out, its not really like dcs or like star wars squadrons and so on, and so balancing around all of these things and complexity and factoring in death of a space man which is much less hardcore than previous iterations but still punishing if a true death happens.

[@Howl-Runner]

​@@yulfine1688Ya, the lawsuits coming for CIG over the misuse and incompetence of the crowd funding is going too shut their servers down.

[@yulfine1688]

@Howl-Runner I'm aware of none of those nor any misuse for crowd funding. Also there's been others in the past that amounted to nothing.

[@Howl-Runner]

@@yulfine1688 Doesn't matter what you're aware of not, here soon it's all going to be coming down. Then why you going too shill for?

[@yulfine1688]

@@Howl-Runner can you provide data and links for your claims then? I mean it'd have to be international or UK as they are based out of manchester if I recall.

[@jebidyah]

What if MM was connected to the power triangle? And let the values be directly affected by that, where full speeds would be reached at 100% engines only. swapping that and MM separately just feels pointless, full power to guns or shields makes sense to slow you down, and vice versa, if you want full speed, you have guns and shields still, but much less

[@meatythud1357]

I really like that idea

[@te8465]

I'm really bummed about the flight model and combat changes. I don't understand what game Yogi is playing too, the pace of the fight needs to be about two to three times faster than it is now. Avenger 1 just had a pretty good video about this, I want my ships to fly like spaceships and to hear that they're actively pursuing slowing everything down, and removing some of my favorite flight mechanics that brought me here from games like Elite is a huge bummer. Engineering sounds cool and everything, but I don't understand how it would be applicable or wanted in most fights when the intent is to kill ships.

[@Haegemon]

Avenger One thinks about planes, Devs think about sea ships. Slower.