Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S2E05: Cardassians

[@Netherfly]

The great thing about Dukat as a villain--and much of this is due to Alaimo's skill--is that he's not simply capable of holding on to two (or more) mutually-exclusive thoughts at once... but his ability to do so is *integral* to his character. He is defined by contradiction, which will become more and more apparent as the series goes on. E.G. he genuinely "loves" the Bajoran people and Bajoran culture, but it is a colonizer's love: he still views them as inherently inferior, and he won't allow his affections to interfere with his duty or what he perceives to be his duty, even (especially) when that duty involves destroying Bajoran culture or ending Bajoran lives. What makes him so fascinating as a villain, to me, is that he falls prey to the same fallacy that many "normal" people do in real life--he thinks that his beliefs, his thoughts, his internal convictions are just as relevant--or moreso--than his actions. In the context of this episode, I think Dukat genuinely felt pity for the orphaned children... but I also think he wouldn't hesitate to murder every single one of them if he could benefit from doing so, and if he did that, afterwards he would justify his actions--and try to claim some degree of moral high ground--with the usual rhetoric about sacrifice and the "greater good."

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Hell, you see that in a minor way with people who say "I can't be racist, I have a black friend". It's so common it's almost a cliché.

[@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies]

Lore, I also want to say I found this channel while I was going through withdrawls from a near-deadly addiction to opiates. Something analyzing DS9 (my second ever favorite TV show behind M*A*S*H) gave me something to focus on rather than my pain and desire to die. Thank you. I don't always agree with your analysis, but you have superb insight.

[@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies]

5:56 "...especially considering...um, moving on. So..." So what?

[@seanrichardson7295]

I had never considered the idea that Dukat was not behind this scheme. I am not fully convinced he isn’t, but it was still an interesting perspective.

[@Netherfly]

PSA: just last year there was a really great novel called "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" (IIRC) that covers the rest of Rugan's life after this episode. It's really good (which is saying something because most of the DS9 books are trash) and goes all the way through the setting of the show, and significantly beyond. Definitely worth a read for DS9 fans, especially if you're fond of Cardassians. (Also read all the Garak books in that latter case, as they tend to be pretty good, too).

[@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies]

Trash? I'm on my third reading of 'Unity' which is EXCELLENT. A Stitch in Time is also great, but being a Garak story written by Garak himself (Andrew Robinson) that's understandable.

[@thepenskyfile]

Alaimo/Dukat might have been playing the "I'm also a victim" card here, but as you say the script seems clear that Dukat was directly responsible for what happened. Either way, it's clearly a bonus to have your antagonists be somewhat vaguely defined (or at least have their true desires be vague). It's kind of like writing a sad song that sounds happy - it's a little bit of a parlor trick but it still makes the end result somehow seem more nuanced. The big thing I remember from this episode is that Dukat is playing an absurdly long con. This is a plan that was in motion for many years. He's definitely someone who can stick to a plan.

[@madalynnights4612]

Even in that first scene with Dukat, I couldn't believe him for a second. Why would he start caring about the orphans after this time?

[@8taklamakan836]

Yeah, the big tipoff was when Dukat said, "this... Garak, an affable fellow if ever there was one". Right. And the only way Dukat could've responded that fast is if the fat guy who brought Rugal + father to the station had messaged Dukat directly.

[@seanrichardson7295]

That is a good point - if the father adopted the kid during the occupation, he could very easily have been part of the conspiracy, if only because he would have no choice but to follow orders from a high-ranking Cardassian.

[@BYWhistory]

Kind of surprised there was no mention of Sisco deciding the boy should go back to Cardassia with his birth father even though the boy wishes to remain on Bajor with his adopted father. It's basically the opposite from the end of suddenly human.

[@stevencoardvenice]

I'm shocked as well that he doesn't discuss this ending

[@hereticalramza]

Bashir and Garak are ... possibly tied? for my second favorite duo in the whole Star Trek franchise (Quark and Odo being the other number two), juuuust edged out by Bashir and O'Brian. I love Dukat and Kira, Geordi and Data, etc too obviously, but yeah.

[@LostMercenary99]

I am perplexed at how the Cardassian union can be so truly evil and so fascinating at the time. I love delving into their culture and people. it's great stuff but also messed up.

[@tee_es_bee]

Man, the acting in the episode was a work of art. Avery Brooks with the affirmative, but clear "you made my day, don't do this again" when Bashir barged into his conversation with Dukat. The smiles and looks of Andrew Robinson playing off of Alexander Siddig.Various other little gems of a moment peppered across the episode. Good stuff. 🧡💛🧡

[@nickokona6849]

I think the Cardassian emphasis on family is kind of a parallel with Klingon fake honour. Good to trumpet in their public, but only for social currency. Dukat has 7 children, but we only hear references to them or his wife maybe theee times in seven seasons. Only one child ever gets a name (besides Ziyal)., Mikor. Dukat misses his birthday, his wife takes their kids and leaves after Ziyal is rescued. Beyond that, there’s no evidence that Dukat cares about his family. The central thing no in Cardassian society. Family is everything. Said outright in this episode. The only true example of Cardassian and family is Legate aGimor. Willing to risk his position of power in Central Command, and the dissident movement to rescue someone he must have suspected wasn’t actually his daughter.

[@seanrichardson7295]

“No evidence”, you say? Dukat is driven insane when Ziyal is killed. You may not agree with the conclusion that Dukat does care about family, but “no evidence” is disengenuous.

[@Spartanj42]

To be honest I always assumed that Dukat was meant to be an extremely nuanced villain. It's a testament to Alemo's acting that he comes off as an extremely unique character and well shaded villain.

[@arndtdj]

I think this misses the huge subtext of O'Brien's war experiences with the Cardassians. I don't know if it wasn't mentioned to avoid spoiling TNG later episodes, but I really think the discussion of _where_ O'Brien's bias comes from would have added something more to this.

[@sirjaunty1]

Hi Lore. Been away from your channel for a couple of years due to some very bad events in my life. Long story short, I am now trying to rebuild things. Just wanted you to know, watching your ruminations is helping me through some very dark times and I would like to thank you for that. Hope you and the family are all well and good.

[@Lorerunner]

I just wanted to say that I'm glad the bad things are over. I hope you can rebuild into something a lot better going forward.

[@permeus2nd]

21:37 im pretty sure there isn't a door on the station that garak can't get past, and Bashir asking from the runabout was only Garak playing nice.

[@NoelleMar]

Even though I'm not too worried about the phrases bad guy/villain/antagonist, this is a great show for the word antagonist. There are so many antagonists in so many different episodes, as well as long-arc antagonists. I love how much DS9 shows prejudice from our heroes, such as Sisko and O'Brien against the Ferengi and Cardassians. Because we have seen how very different both of those species can be from human values--or rather, how much they can portray some of our supposedly WORST values. You see why O'Brien who has fought the Cardassians is not cool with him. And even Sisko who tries to be open-minded can't help but have the "anything but Ferengi" attitude.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Given the huge arc about his half-Bajoran daughter, I'd say it's a good bet that Dukat really was furious about the idea of family being betrayed in this way.

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

I like it that Garak uses his tailor tools, observation and eye for detail as transferable skills for spying, etc. or vice versa. He's a delightfully two-sided character you can never quite trust, and cannot fail to keep an eye on. Dukat too is a juicy character too. The grudging compassion of taking in Cardassian children is understandable. These are children Cardassian adults have abandoned callously, and the Bajor being more compassionate are burdened at having to act in their compassion to look after them, hence Kira's resignation. It's the mess of adoption and the kids don't have it good unless they're lucky, but for Cardassian kids they look distinctly Cardassian and will never fit in. The kid doesn't have any say, really, and in the end has to live with his genetic father. Someone tell me that's going to go well when he loves his Bajoran father. That sucks.

[@sharkdentures3247]

Another very fine video. I liked it a lot. (even profound in places) I do slightly disagree about Cardassian society/psychology. I think you are right in that it takes family/clan mentality to an unhealthy level. However, I think it is more "if you are not blood, you are OTHER (or THEM or OUTSIDER/under suspicion)." than "if you are not blood, you are ENEMY." - Just my POV.

[@smokeymcgee7585]

6:00 its my first time watching DS9 and the fact you keep alluding to Bashir in this way is making me sooo curious as to what you mean. I honestly have no idea and i hope its not too much longer until i find out haha. No spoilers please!

[@tee_es_bee]

13:30 Based on the 3 second look Dukat shared with Garak at the end, I would err on the side off Dukat was foiled by Garak and this was a genuine long game attempt by Dukat.

[@korrinmichealson5344]

"Death to the insert category here of people because I'm an idiot," Simplistic and true.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Dukats own " No Child Left Behind " policy episode .

[@George_M_]

Interesting point on O'Brien. I feel like his bias is more strongly pervasive than Kira's. He avoids and kind of hates them to the end, whereas Kira faces and deals with hers.

[@colindunnigan8621]

Actually, I've had to deal with people's inappropriate chumminess several times in my life. Most distasteful.

[@bad-people6510]

I enjoyed Rugal and O'Brien bonding over their mutual hatred for Cardassians.

[@kellykarjola1886]

I looked on youtube and Star Trek fans have not done an episode review of the DS9 season 6 episode "Far Beyond the Stars" yet. I am looking forward to hearing your review of it but because you are going in order, it might take years to get to that episode...

[@SSecularScholar]

Garak picked the lock.

[@signaltome]

First, to a point (not say I AGREE btw) O'Brian has a "right" to hate Cardassians, most of the ones he has met were borderline hostile or at war. First impressions and all that. I believe he will mellow out over time, as will even Kira and others. Federation people are flexible - they must be to live with so many species. What the Cardassians left was a mess, both for the Bajorans and for their own people. But as we can see, not all Bajorans or Cardassians are the same. Others can change with time and perspective. As for parentage, I feel there is a difference between being a father and being a dad. (I use these two words as an example, they might not apply for all situations but for my explanation if will use them as such) The Father (here) is the biological, the male human(oid) that sired the child. The Dad is the person that helps to raise that child and bring them up to hopefully be a good part of the society For the most part they are both the same, but being a father does not always equal to being a dad. That, of course also works in reverse. Being adopted obviously means that you do not have a father but THAT does not mean you do not have a dad. Even if that person did not have anything to do with the birth of that child, in all other ways he might want all the best for his child and treat her or him as it really WAS his from the beginning. Which goes back to Siskos choice to send the boy back to Cardassia with his father instead of letting him live happily with his dad on Bajor. Family can be many things. Only thing I fault Sisko for really. :-) I know, politics were probably involved and Sisko does not just represent himself in this issue. But still...

[@8taklamakan836]

I think anybody watching this episode would agree. But in the real world, being the biological parent trumps everything in a court, as long as you didn't abandon the child knowingly. Narratively, I think the inevitable solution of handing Rugal over to Padar (+ Padar's reluctance to help the orphans) was meant to underscore that, even though Dukat was exposed and Padar's career saved, Rugal (+ orphans) - the real victim in all this - wasn't getting his happy bow-tied ending. You're supposed to feel lousy about that.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

If Rugal's biological father had knowingly and willingly abandoned him and was now suddenly trying to reclaim him over 10 years later, you'd be right. But the fact is, the boy was STOLEN from his birth family and raised by people who ultimately filled his mind with self-loathing racism. His biological father was wronged and it needed to be corrected.

[@ssmsmdffff]

Yay a Garak episode! One thing that did nag at me was the fact that the Federation would definitely have found suitable homes for some war orphans, so the premise of them stuck on Bajor seemed a bit flimsy to me. Otherwise I really enjoyed this one and thanks Lore as always.

[@TheHopperUK]

Bear in mind Bajor isn't part of the Federation at this point. They can't very well just offload a bunch of kids, many of whom have Bajoran ancestry, onto a third party, even if the Federation would take them.

[@inmjoh]

I don't get the hate for the cardassians. Did they subjugate Bajor and kill many Bajorans? Yes. Is this any different than the Klingon empire, the Romulan empire, or the Dominion? I think not. So whats the difference except their misdeeds are shown on screen?

[@timriggins70]

Isn't the timeline with the Cardassian withdrawal a little skewed. The boy was a adolescent but they act like he was a young child when he was abandoned but it was only two years ago.

[@seanrichardson7295]

The kid was adopted before the Cardassians left. The conspirators faked his death. He is not a war orphan, everybody just assumed that at first.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I love how both of the O’Brien’s are very biased in unique and distinct ways. It’s awful, but fitting. Miles is knowingly and openly against Cardassians, while Keiko is more subtly prejudiced. That “stew” scene just feels so disgustingly realistic and sad, but then gets overshadowed by O’Brien and the kid bonding. Based on what the kid tells us about Bajoran schools… I think he *was* briefed on what to say when confronted by a Cardassian about criminal acts during the war. Also: it’s always a joy to hear Dukat say “B’Jhornn.”

[@tbk2010]

Like this weeks TNG episode, the biggest letdown of this is that they never followed up on it. Imagine revisiting any of the orphans in the episode 5, 10 years later. Whatever became of them must be interesting, maybe depressing, but maybe uplifting. Who would be more qualified than them to heal the wounds created by the occupation?

[@8taklamakan836]

I actually think they're mentioned offhandedly in 2x11 "Rivals" (e.g. "War Orphans Fund"). It's not much, but it's still better continuity than TNG ever had.

[@ifandbut]

You really need a spoilers section like you had with Babylon 5 so you could talk about future stuff.

[@rebeccatomlin3121]

Be curious to see if those Cardassians ever got home. We're meeting Garak again in STO soon, he's had a long time to petition and put through change. Maybe those kids, when they finally got home, came back to see a better Cardassia than the one they could have gotten home to that day.

[@francoislacombe9071]

Dukat may have been intended as a vilain, but what he turned out to be was an antagonist.

[@tubeviewerX20]

This episode is certainly not “extremely dark”. Not when compared to the Borg, Dominion, Vidiians, or Bluegill alien bugs, anyway. A bit dark yes, but I would not say “extremely”. Great review, though.

[@gallendugall8913]

And the same day you post this Cardies are confirmed for STO.

[@williamcody1849]

I read an essay about Romania during WW2, "racism" was discussed quite frequently; and its not necessarily stupid. It can be, and often is in our now inclusive modern society~ but a common enemy is one of the most unifying forces that exists. Is it really stupid for the Bajorans to universally hate Cardassians?

[@SattaiLanfear]

I have to say I disagree on your note about Kira's comment about the Bajorans having to take in the Cardassian orphans. Her exact wording was "The boy was probably one of the orphans left behind when the Cardassians pulled out. We had no choice but to take care of them." I at least pick up nothing negative towards the children, maybe some "of course decent people would do this, and their government should have taken them" but nothing towards the kids. Her tone and body language are a little distorted because while she made her comment, her panel started to beep and she looked down (making her seem more resentful.) She wasn't looking down to alter the emotional weight of her words though, but to read the incoming transmission from Cardassia which she reports a moment later while continuing to poke at her console.

[@seanrichardson7295]

The phrase “we had no choice” is inherently defensive, and has the strong implication “we would not have done this under ordinary circumstances.” A neutral phrase would be “so of course we took them in”.

[@unc0mm0n2]

Dukat is the bad guy. Just because Hitler loves German kids who lose limbs, doesn't make him any less bad. This is the only thing I'm really disappointed by lorerunner for this take.

[@kardy12]

Of course a “bad guy” can have a multifaceted character. The notion that only a cartoonishly simplified antagonist can be a “bad guy” is a bit silly. Even bad guy characters can evolve over time. Also, racism IS a bias, which can manifest itself in different degrees. O’Brien’s bias may be grown out of fighting them, but it is blatantly racist. And it’s not subtle in any way. In the TNG episode (I forget the name, the one where Picard brings O’Brien’s former captain from Cardassian territory) he appears to recognise that bias. But in this episode, that continuity seems to have been lost. I do agree there is a lot of resentment, even hatred, for Cardassians among Bajorans. But I think the Circle itself was shocked that Cardassians were secretly aiding them, because it rammed home to them that getting rid of the Federation would simply invite living under Cardassian rule again. And this time Bajorans’ resistance would be weakened by the fact that their OWN GOVERNMENT would have picked up arms against other Bajorans.

[@frazerrhughess]

O’Brien has a good point - spoonheads are dirty and bad

[@Judokasting]

I'm sorry but if an occupying force enslaved my people, killed friends and family at will, killed millions, and other unspeakable things, FOR OVER 50 YEARS, i am NOT probably ever, going to be anything but hateful and aggressive towards them. I'd avoid them, but would never forgive, or forget. Bajorans hating Cardassians makes too much sense to me, and looking at it any other way, doesn't.

[@bad-people6510]

Let This be Your Last Battlefield wasn't even about race. The idea that they're even different races is only brought up, in passing, one time. They were divided by ideologies. That episode was about propaganda.