STAR TREK Logical Thinking #8 - Argumentum Ad Baculum (Appeal to Force)

[@jetuber]

The decision to set this particular fallacy in the Mirror Universe was truly inspired.

[@madnessbydesignVria]

Evil Spock was exactly what I needed as I head off to work... :)

[@CHDanhauser]

Glad I could be of service!

[@dubuyajay9964]

​@@CHDanhauser "That would be very advisable."

[@TheMjsanty]

Ther is one fear that the Mirror Universe counterparts will never have to experience. Going about you day and hearing the words that haunt all your waking moments, “pardon me gentlemen. But, I couldn’t help overhearing.” I get chills just thinking about it.

[@Bryankd]

Very clever and fun to see it set in the Mirror Universe!

[@CHDanhauser]

Thanks. I have two more Mirror Spock Logic Lessons coming. "Argument Ad Vericundiam" will be released in February 2018, with another one coming a few months later.

[@aquariandawn4750]

It's the only universe that really matters, human.

[@TruthLivesNow]

You will think my way...”If you value your life.”

[@potatoheadpokemario1931]

He's basically doing what sully did

[@evenstoats2639]

Or the Catholic church for a few hundred years.

[@jetuber]

I would unironically prefer an entire season/series of the Mirror Universe than the regular one, were the Animated Series ever to be resurrected. It's much more interesting and unpredictable.

[@AHerderOfCats]

Thanks for these. Great job. 👍 I really enjoyed the animated Trek series. So underrated. These lessons in logic from Mr Spock seem a fine tribute. And this one, set in the mirror universe, was an unexpected treat. LL&P 🖖😃

[@CHDanhauser]

Thanks, I'm glad you appreciate them. I have two more Mirror Spock Logic Lessons coming. "Argument Ad Vericundiam" will be released in February 2018, with another one coming a few months later.

[@videosforpeople8197]

I like how even the introduction is backwards.

[@zoppie]

Nice to see Chekov in toon form!

[@CHDanhauser]

Thanks. I agree it is about time.

[@stevejordan7275]

Excellent use of the material! I'll have to watch the rest of these. Good Rationalist stuff; I heartily approve!

[@alacastersoi8265]

he used a very argumentum ad baculum, "and you life"

[@thelaughinghyenas7962]

These are really great! I hope to see more of them. This one is my favorite somehow.

[@sandal_thong8631]

So many people in other Mirror videos were commenting about the agonizer or something, that it's funny to see it here as the means of persuasion in a logical fallacy.

[@skogga]

Wow! you chose the right toolbox for this one!

[@CHDanhauser]

Thanks. Mirror Sulu is as imperious as ever.

[@jtkirkfan2002]

Kirk is never around in these. Must be in his quarters with Marlena Moreau.

[@CHDanhauser]

Kirk will appear in the intro portion of three logic PSAs that are set in the Briefing Room. Those are due to be released late 2018, early 2019.

[@MarkLipka]

🤣

[@sandal_thong8631]

He may have already been overthrown by Mr. Spock.

[@indio007]

Did Spock make a thinly veiled threat and use the same fallacy he just pointed out?

[@arthurloginov4722]

No. He stated that as an if then logical condition. - the Empire is ruthless and is pursuing effectivity. - a mistake is likely to pose a risk for your life. - correct reasoning is a condition of effectivity. - therefore it is logical to maximize ones utility in order to maintain personal safety.

[@KyleTheFolf]

No, they both used threats yes but Spock didn't try to prove something with irrelevant use of violence. Though as @arthurloginov4722 he did use a *relevant* threat of violence to explain that if he values his life he should make efficient decisions.

[@jomama900]

Watching these in order and this one is Amazing! Thanks for putting this in the Mirror Universe Curt!

[@CharlesIndelicato]

Hold up! Episodes #1-#7, #9 were endorsed by the American Philosophical Academy whereas #8 and #10 were authorized by the Imperial Indoctrination Directive. Perhaps the IID is part of the Empire?

[@TheNemest]

ironic because spock appeals to force in his closing statements

[@birdtopaz5627]

I believe the irony was quite deliberate; Spock in the Mirror Universe gave Sulu a dose of what he was dishing out so freely to underscore just how fallacious argumentum ad baculum is!

[@KingZolem]

He did add an appeal to force, however he did not do so as the sole method of enforcing compliance. He argued his point and explained his reasoning and got his opponent to agree. It is only after his opponent agreed however that he let him know that such future failures would result in punishment. As such there was no argument ad baculum as the threat of force was not used to win the argument. It was instead an informative cautionary consequential statement involving future behavior.

[@lukelee7967]

"Here's my bad idea, we should do it" Sulu "Your idea is bad and we shouldn't do it" Chekov "How about I torture you" Sulu "Your bad idea is pretty good" Chekov

[@chachachi-hh1ks]

Appeal to force is more subtle than it appears. Of course you can't really change beliefs of your opponent with violence or threats of violence. BUT, if you will make your opponent to shut up (or even better, imitate support of your position), without making other people aware about threats, then other people will be more likely to adopt your position. Bonus points if your opponent is respected in certain community. The same logic works with bribes(instead of threats) too.

[@martinboyle9163]

There are many operatives who would avenge my death. And some of them, Mr. Sulu, are Vulcan.

[@stormie7954]

Does anyone know what the song is that’s played at the VERY beginning of the video?

[@CHDanhauser]

It is the track called "Spock" on the TOS soundtrack album Vol. II

[@0biwan7]

not to be confused with Ad Bakulum which is to appeal to Archer multiple times

[@jeffreykalb9752]

Poor Sulu can't get anything right.

[@sandal_thong8631]

"If I may continue..."

[@ccf_1004]

Wouldn't it be ISS-1701 because its in the mirror universe?

[@CHDanhauser]

No. The ISS (Imperial Space Ship) replaces United Space Ship (USS) as in ISS Enterprise. The Registry number is still NCC.

[@KerriEverlasting]

Sky sent me ❤

[@mikemakevideos]

lol this one is hilarious

[@wandamorris7042]

where's kirk?

[@meowpoint1403]

Why is Sulu being so mean?

[@jomama900]

It's Mirror Sulu who is the Helmsman/Chief of Security. It's his job to rule the lower ranks through fear!

[@DeconvertedMan]

its only logical!

[@videosforpeople8197]

The mirror universe never really made sense to me. Spock can't be evil- evil just isn't logical. It's one of the most illogical concepts there is. And serving an evil dictatorship- that's freakin' insane. The whole thing is nuts. It would work- if Spock didn't exist or something in the mirror universe.

[@MariaMartinez-researcher]

Videos for people In a broad sense you are right; a whole society based on betrayal, murder and such is unviable. By the other side, Spock here makes sense: as it was exposed in Enterprise and reaffirmed in Discovery, Terrans enslaved other species, starting with Vulcans. It would be only logical for a resourceful, intelligent, strong individual, who also happens to have some integrity (and self esteem, and ambition), to look for a better position. In that universe, doesn't seem there are many options.

[@videosforpeople8197]

I think it'd make more sense for Vulcans, who are renowned for being logical, smart beings in our universe, to become depraved monsters in the alternate universe. I mean, if they're the same in the mirror universe, the mirror universe doesn't really seem all that opposite. It'd even be OK if Spock decided that he was going to serve the evil empire and NOT act logical. He could state that he wasn't going to be a logical Vulcan anymore, and kinda stray more to his human side or whatever. But the problem, really, is that even in the mirror universe, while serving the fascists, he STILL insists that he's being perfectly logical. Like here, for instance, he's still annoying all his crew members by pointing out the logical fallacies they're employing. In the meantime, he's employing a whole bunch of fallacies. Appeal to force, for one, in this video. He serves the Empire because they'll kill him if he doesn't obey. Talk about irony. In addition, I'd say he employs appeal to authority, stating that The Empire is supreme. Maybe appeal to majority as well, considering that a lot of people choose to join this whole fascist thing. Maybe appeal to tradition, considering that the fascist thing has existed for a long time. He probably uses loads of ad hominems. He probably begs the question a lot. I have no problem with him being a jerk in the evil universe, he just can't claim to be logical at the same time. That's contradictory. he's a traitor to his people, he blows up planets without mercy, and, above all, he's a hypocrite. He's not one tiny bit logical.

[@MariaMartinez-researcher]

Videos for people Of course not. 😁 In this videos, even less. Although it's fun, specially because you get he is doing it, using the same fallacy Sulu used against Chekov. If you noticed, you learned. As I mentioned, the whole concept of the Mirror Universe is problematic. Don't forget that Vulcans, as all aliens in Star Trek, are representative of human features, and even as Vulcans, they many times don't behave quite logically, not even reasonably, like, Sarek didn't talk to his son for 18 years, and the Vulcans in Enterprise weren't quite reasonable either. Tuvok did some quite illogical things too. If you take a look around, you will see many humans doing exactly the same as this mirror Vulcans. The current divide in USA's society gives plenty of examples on a daily basis; the most interesting part is, it doesn't matter if you are a Rep or a Dem or an independent, you probably will find your position is not only logical, but sane and intelligent, and other's not, maybe all of the contrary. Here in Chile we had (have) the same problem about Pinochet. His supporters doesn't think the torture, exile, murders and disappearances he was responsible of are anything but logical, deserved, just and patriotic. The terrorists that tried to assassinate him thought the same. As Janeway told once to Tuvok, logic is a tool, and it can be used to justify anything.

[@videosforpeople8197]

The concept of the Mirror universe doesn't have to be problematic. Vulcans could just be merciless killing machines. Then I'd get it all. I don't see how Spock can claim to be logical and be illogical at the same time. He can't. Can you use logic to justify genocide? I don't think logic can be used like that. You know that the credibility of an opinion depends on how much evidence can justify it, correct? Republicans and Democrats are not both right. One of them is more correct than the other one- I think that democrats are more correct, since they believe in global warming and know that guns kill people. Pinochet was a horrible person, and the United States was too paranoid of Communism. Very, simple, really. There are absolute truths. I don't think Spock can justify his slaughtering entire planets with the push of a button. Murder is simply illogical, no matter how you go about it.

[@christopheralthouse6378]

@@videosforpeople8197 In all of this, one truth seems to be routinely forgotten...one that was set up at the end of "Mirror, Mirror", which is that Mirror Spock learned the error of his ways up to that point and that the Terran Empire was, in itself, illogical at its root. He then took on a MUCH more important cause...to bring systemic change to the Terran Empire by first taking command of its flagship, the ISS Enterprise. Obviously...this wasn't a change that would be easy nor happen overnight. Think of this as taking place post-"Mirror, Mirror" and you might get a better sense of what is really happening. Mirror Spock now commands the ISS Enterprise, however, he still has the same crew that Mirror Kirk once commanded...a bloodthirsty crew deeply loyal to the Terran Empire and its causes. He can't just waltz in and say "HEY! GUESS WHAT GUYS? I just learned this wonderful new tactic called PEACE and..." Right there, he's dead...that's a normal route for advancement and if he started out preaching peace it would've ended his time in command...and his new mission... Before it even started. Therefore, it is only logical that he take the path we're bearing witness to here...which is gradually shifting his crew's viewpoints over time whilst still employing the tactics familiar to them, those being the use of fear and intimidation along with a misguided sense of loyalty to the Terran Empire to maintain his standing with the crew. In short, this isn't Commander Spock we're witnessing give a logic lesson...this is CAPTAIN Spock of the Terran Empire flagship ISS Enterprise using a form of subtlety as his crew members understand it to slowly and gradually turn them away from their more bloodthirsty ways and over to a somewhat more peaceful pursuit of logical reasoning. I'm kinda glad to see it, tbh...😅😁

[@Aristocles22]

Practice better logic or face the agony booth. :D Which is not, in fact, a logical argument.