Star Trek Retro Review: "The City on the Edge of Forever" | Time Travel Episodes

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#startrek #startrektos #review #timetravel

[@steveng.clinard1766]

Sure, it's OK as is, but let's have the old Script Doctor take a look... First of all, they should have sent the entire bridge crew to the planet and through the portal. That way, we can have Sulu get arrested and get sent to an internment camp for Japanese-Americans. Uhura and Scotty steal a cop car and get in a car chase, escaping, and freeing Sulu before his bus reaches the camp. Meanwhile, Kirk and Spock run into a guy who looks exactly like Harry Mudd, but he's not Harry Mudd. He just looks exactly like him. Sulu, Scotty and Uhura return and everyone's astounded that Harry Mudd is in the past, but Kitk explains that, although he looks exactly like Harry Mudd, he's not Harry Mudd. He just looks exactly like Harry Mudd. For no particular reason other than the producers want to put that actor in another episode. Anyhow, they find McCoy, Trellaine is in it for some reason, he sends them all back in time, and Spock mentions in passing in the final moments of the episode that a review of the historical documents indicates that Edith Keeler actually got hit by a truck offscreen and that's the thing that they needed to fix. Roll credits!

[@jplayzow]

If we're mentioning internment camps we could also bring up the black codes Uhura was as likely to be arrested for existing as he was to be thrown in an internment camp if she wasn't with scotty there's plenty of social criticism that could have been shown instead of us having to watch them effectively kill some poor lady they could have cut like you said to showing the results turning out correctly simply for having stopped the doc from interfering

[@tag1462]

LOL! Loved it. Kinda reminds me of a certain Star Trek movie where the crew go back in time to save the whales. You know the one. It mirrored quite a few time travelling elements from TOS. Anyways here's my weird theory: Edith didn't actually die. She was rescued by Picard and brought to the future and fixed up. Why exactly? Because Edith is not only empathic, she's intelligent and a damned good diplomat. Afterall she did convince FDR not to get into a war which didn't involve the US. True it's an alternative timeline. But put Edith into the right context, at the right time and place. We get the Federation. Edith Keeler was responsible for putting the Universe right as rain. In her own way, skipping across timelines. Well, that's what I like to think about her.

[@gentlemanvanilla]

I laughed and cried :D

[@we1ssbr0t]

You could make an entire season out of this!

[@AndrewD8Red]

Uhura: * listening to Bluetooth earbud * "I'm picking up passive aggressive "Picard" shade, captain."

[@terminatorxp2007]

Spock: *Creating a computer that will literally save humanity* Kirk: *goes out on a date*

[@captainyossarian388]

Kirk is leadership/management, both of which Spock is in no need of in this situation. Spock basically tasks him to be a glorified gopher.

[@fearisthemind-killer]

The work was out of Kirk's wheelhouse. He would have been the annoying guy hanging over Spock's shoulder constantly asking, "Is it done yet? Is it done yet? How 'bout now? Is it done yet?"

[@ScottLuvsRenFaires]

Kirk was basically Steve Jobs, Spock was Steve Wozniak.

[@aliceharper707]

Stone knives and bear skins

[@davecrowson448]

Probably the greatest episode. It’s got everything and everybody is fantastic in it. And the last scene alone (Let’s get the hell out of here) proves that, when he wants to be, Shatner was a truly great actor. He packs so much into that one line, and the look on his face, like he’s destroyed, full of sorrow and anger and even shame, but he has to hold it together, because he’s the captain. Just perfect. Gets me every time.

[@aliceharper707]

Yes

[@LeadSurge3000]

@davecrowson448 - *Well said. Me, too.* 🙂

[@djmilkdudgbdad2669]

As much hate as Shatner gets due to his narcissism and stuff the quality of his acting often goes unnoticed in my eyes. This is a brilliant performance by Shatner and I’ll never forget him falling to the ground in pain after he finds out his son has been killed. He’s a fine actor and has shown it time and again

[@caatcher]

I met Mr. Shatner once and took the opportunity to thank him for everything he'd done. "It was my pleasure," he replied. That was so good of him.

[@ranuelthebard3751]

Shatner's problem isn't that he isn't a good actor but that he frequently chooses not to be. On ST there were times when he felt the script was stupid and just didn't bother to make an effort. Other times he was bored and deliberately played things OTT to see how far he could get away with before the director reeled him in. He's very unprofessional but when he's motivated he rightly had a reputation as a great actor before he landed the role of Kirk.

[@lechatel]

@@ranuelthebard3751 So you know this first-hand?

[@gogreen7794]

I met Shatner briefly, during a photo op. We actually had a short conversation. He was very kind.

[@LeadSurge3000]

🙂 *I was dating a girl a few years ago & was startled that she'd never watched Trek. She was fascinated with my boyish enthusiasm for the show so we layed in bed watching this episode. She was definitely wow'd by the great story. I don't know if she became a trekker; but, we sure had a good time.* 🙂

[@haqitman]

I have a different take on Edith's awkward expression of her ideals to Kirk. She's thought about these things for a long time but hasn't told anyone because her ideas are pretty out there for the time and she thinks many would think of her as a nut. So her expression of those ideas is unpracticed and it comes out like she's making it up because it may be the first time she's said it out loud and hasn't polished her delivery yet. It also feels a little bit like a gushing schoolgirl, who is so happy to be able to tell someone of a like mind her ideas, so there's a bit of excitement and joy in her delivery causing her to stumble on her words a bit.

[@sunspot42]

Yup, I came here to post pretty much just that. She's thought of all this before but hasn't expressed it in quite that way before. She's still polishing her pitch, as it were, coming up with the exact phrasing on the fly. Say what you want about Collins, but she's a *much* better actress than she's generally given credit for. They were very lucky to nab her for this episode - I can't imagine anyone better in the role. She *nails* it.

[@rationaltrekker2509]

But she also says stuff at the soup kitchen that sounds like she's just says it for the first time. My take is that it's perhaps the first time she's articulated it quite that way. The one guy calls her "Miss Goodie Two-Shoes" and mutters about having to listen to her and she's clear about being aware of such comments - it's the payment.

[@mikeg2306]

Nuclear energy and even space travel were not realities in 1930 but anyone who had read the science of the time knew that they were on the cusp of becoming realities. Einstein had predicted nuclear energy in 1915 and Robert Goddard had begun his rocketry experiments, which anyone who understood Newton’s 3rd Law knew was the way to get to space. There had been a movie about traveling to the moon with a rocket in 1902, based on a novel by H.G. Wells.

[@Cmdr1962]

No matter how often I've seen this episode, that moment hits hard. That's the nature of a well-written, well-produced, well-acted tragedy. We know it's coming. We watch helplessly. We feel. Bravo.

[@robertmartinjr.4537]

Edith Keeler's speech about the future of mankind in space and describing a utopia basically summed up Star Trek.

[@calebleland8390]

I always get choked up when Spock says that line. "He knows, Doctor. He knows." It's so powerful, and you almost get the sense that he could have a true emotional reaction. Love this episode. If not my favorite episode, definitely in my Top 5.

[@thescifiZipacna]

I love the visual gag of Spock's computer gradually taking over the room.

[@Mallory-Malkovich]

Kirk: I don't believe in no-win scenarios! Spock: Edith Keeler. Kirk: *dies *

[@frankandstein8618]

Thanks, Steve. One of the very best TOS episodes. Spock has two of his best lines: "I am endeavoring, Ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins." and 'He knows, Doctor, he knows".

[@fearisthemind-killer]

The first line almost sounds like something McCoy would say.

[@patrickdodds7162]

"The City on the Edge of Forever" -- "Yesterday's Enterprise" -- "The Visitor": Trek's time travel trilogy that transcends television.

[@wolfiebassache4146]

Totally agree. In fact City***Forever is one of the first things that made a 7 year old me realise there's more to think about than banging matchbox cars together.

[@andrewmurray1550]

If you're talking "classic TOS" time travel you kind of have to include DS9's Trials and Tribbleations since technically, and arguably, it is TOS.

[@chrisblake4198]

If I'm picking a time travel story from DS9, it's Past Tense 1,2 not the Visitor. I see the Visitor like "Children of Time"- a story where time travel is not a crucial element to the story, just a framing device. Visitor is a fantastic episode, but to me it doesn't strictly qualify as a time travel story

[@christopherdaffron8115]

Great episodes for sure. I have to say though that I was never a fan of the use of time travel for any of the various Star Trek series. I remember when the Star Trek Enterprise series was first announced, I thought OK they are going back to basics and shouldn't have any of this time travel business. Then the pilot episode aired and guess what? Yep, time travel.

[@rationaltrekker2509]

@@wolfiebassache4146 WELL SAID, SIR, WELL SAID!

[@fabrisseterbrugghe8567]

Edith Keeler's line that she hears the title "Captain" even when Spock doesn't say it says a great deal about her powers of observation.

[@Cmdr1962]

The musical cues that play when Edith speaks hint she's slightly psychic.

[@dondavenport7077]

Someone may have already mentioned it, but Kirk's final line is supposedly the first time the word 'hell' was used on network television. Roddenberry had to fight to keep it in the script.

[@johnboren8928]

The use of that word was earned by the episode. Later TV shows used it for shock value, which declined so today people swear just because they swear, I guess. Or else characters swear to cover the bad writing in so many shows.

[@RobJMore]

"Let's get the hell outta here" was the secret password for the Guardian to bring them back to the present, uniforms and all.

[@NatsuMatto]

"He got his head caught in a ... mechanical... rice picker..." I teach a high school English course called (simply) SCIENCE FICTION. Always use this episode as an introduction to the Star Trek universe, as well as the unwanted effects of time travel. Not sure the kids enjoy it, but I always get a kick out of this episode. Hearing/reading all about how Harlan Ellison's original script got mangled is always interesting as well. ALSO amusing to see that they used the ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW set to film these scenes -- you can clearly see Kirk and Edith walk past Floyd's Barber Shop.

[@willmfrank]

Amusing, but not unusual; they shot exteriors on the Culver City 40 Acres backlot several times. There was once a website (it's been shut down, now, sadly) that showed aerial photographs of the backlot with notes pointing out every location in not only "City" but also "Miri" and "Return of the Archons." By the way, at the other end of the backlot was an exterior set called The Arab Village, where outdoor scenes for "the Cage" and "Errand of Mercy" were filmed. Two other Desilu series, "Mission: Impossible" and "The Untouchables" also filmed scenes on the Midwestern Town set, as did "The Adventures of Superman" (years before The Andy Griffith Show used it as Mayberry) and "Batman."

[@fearisthemind-killer]

@@willmfrank Damn. Talk about a walk through my childhood. Thanks for the info.

[@darkwitness2718]

Harlan Ellison's original script wasn't "mangled." It was streamlined and improved to adapt to a one hour episode of Star Trek. All the changes that D.C. Fontana and the staff writers made to the script are what made it one of TOS best episodes.

[@rationaltrekker2509]

"I see you noticed the ears..."

[@rationaltrekker2509]

I hope at least some of your students appreciate it. It is an excellent literary piece. If I were going to use a Trek episode as an intro, I think I too would use CotEoF. It would definitely be my top choice among TOS episodes.

[@danieljohnkirby9412]

I feel like a big part of the reason that TOS episodes often feel padded, particularly to modern viewers, is we're just used to tighter storytelling because our TV shows are written for more ads. One hour of modern TV is like 42 minutes of story and 18 minutes of ads, Star Trek: TOS was 50 minutes of story and 10 minutes of ads.

[@sunspot42]

Yup.

[@allenrubinstein3696]

There is a much greater reason - B stories. OST never had B stories that would have fleshed out the characters and their relationships to one another while taking up time in episodes that don't have enough A story to fill 45 minutes. In TNG, Worf could be tangling with Alexander while Riker has an existential crisis with reality-bending alien technology. There are scores of original episodes that would be markedly improved with an unrelated or semi-related B story (as well as doing way better service in the series overall to Sulu, Chekov, Scotty and Uhura).

[@Yoshifan4569]

City is such an amazing episode. The domesticity is so real and it genuinely feels like there are stakes and there's emotion. I love it so much.

[@mrtrek2117]

You can really feel Kirks pain at the very end of the episode. "Let's get the hell outta here"

[@jbz4788]

Something that I realised listening to the plot: Edith was only crossing that road at that time because of Kirk’s reaction to her mentioning Mcoy. And maybe the Guardian knew that the entire time and “nudged” the Enterprise at the exact moment to ensure that it happened.

[@buckocean7616]

Interesting hypothesis to be sure.

[@AaronLitz]

So the whole thing was a Predestination Paradox?

[@logiciananimal]

@@AaronLitz I've always thought so.

[@rationaltrekker2509]

It would be nice if that were true, but sadly, it's never the impression I've had from things that the Guardian of Forever says, like how he can't alter the rate at which yesterday passes.

[@AaronLitz]

@@logiciananimal That's an interesting idea; I don't know if I agree, but it is intriguing.

[@bernardoconnor1502]

The street Kirk and Edith are walking along talking is the same street used for the Andy Griffith Show. You can actually see them walk past Floyd's Barber Shop.

[@brad9189]

One thing most people don't know--the Guardian, in its spare time, also is a bartender who sometimes hangs out with a scientist named Sam Beckett, and his friend Al.

[@DoerOfThings8]

You mentioned that McCoy is such a good and likeable guy, and he is, but I'm also remembering how you pointed out his blatant racism towards Spock. It's difficult to reconcile those two things. McCoy is an interesting example of the kind of people that we often find in real life and how difficult it is to categorize someone as either all bad or all good. It takes a lot of understanding on our part to navigate that.

[@dennisbergendorfii5440]

I've thought of McCoy as kind of a proxy for the 20th century viewing audience. He's one who tries to live up to the ideal that Star Trek presents, but he's still got a lot of the baggage that humans might still carry, and throughout the franchise appreciates conveniences and life- saving technology, but is still overwhelmed by "strange, new worlds."

[@michaelhall2709]

Star Trek has many influences, but at least a chunk of its DNA derived from the TV western, and the Spock-McCoy rivalry/friendship is very reminiscent of the banter between the town doctor and Matt Dillon’s deputy on “Gunsmoke” - two very different personalities who nevertheless mostly respect each other beneath the wisecracks. I really don’t buy at all the idea that McCoy is racist.

[@spencerbissett3417]

I love the callback in The Voyage Home; never got it until I was older, but Kirk getting run into by a car with, "hey why don't you watch where you're goin'?" And then in TVH, "hey why don'tcha watch where you're going, you dumbass?!"

[@rationaltrekker2509]

I'm 61 years old. I've been watching Trek since I was around 9 years old and "The City on the Edge of Forever" is one that has always stood out to me for all the qualities you bring up. I'm not sure it's my all-time favourite TOS episode, but maybe deep down it is. There are episodes I rewatch more frequently because they're fun to watch in different ways. but CotEoF is what I watch when I want that profoundly human story. Spock's line, "He knows, Doctor, he knows" was burned into my psyche very early on. Kirk's nascent love for Edith and her clear affection for him struck even the pre-teen me. That conversation on their walk where Kirk tells her about the three words of an author from a planet circling a star in Orion's Belt I have always remembered, as well as Spock's warning, "Jim, Edith Keeler must die" as well as the look on Kirk's face when he hears Spock say that. Then, just as an aside, even pre-teen me says to the guy who nicks McCoy's pocket phaser, "Hey, moron! Didn't your mother ever tell you to not play with stuff when you don't know what it is?!" Now, did the guy discharge the phaser before it overloaded? It sounded like it was building up to an overload, but it doesn't explode, so maybe he hit the trigger at the last second and saved McCoy and that whole city block.

[@charlietuba]

Harlan Ellison hated this episode. David Gerald wrote about how Ellison didn't know how to write for a TV series or a Star Trek episode.

[@SheilaRough]

Joan Collins was so lovely in this episode

[@rationaltrekker2509]

And I have always loved her British accent that goes with her beautiful face. It suited Edith Keeler.

[@mariovaccarella6854]

You're so right about how all of this is done in 50 minutes, but feels as if it's A Two-Parter, for putting all of these things into A Single Episode, because the pace keeps moving throughout the whole Episode. Especially since, given this, it's likely the reason that this is The Best Of All Star Trek. Joan Collins had great chemistry with William Shatner/was great on her own. As you discussed in the other Video, comparing The Original Harlan Ellison's Script & this, they might want to make that a Two-Parter.

[@Cheryworld]

McCoy, appearing from nowhere, running down a street in 1930 Manhattan. Reminds me so much of 1980s New York, a crazy man running through the street, screaming "WHAT PLANET IS THIS?"

[@wobe-nh8ii]

my feelings on this episode are mixed. i think its sad when edith dies, but from what we know of the character i believe that if she knew what the future holds, she would willingingly step in front of the truck herself in order to save others.

[@brucedillinger9448]

One of my most favorite episodes. ✌

[@matmaneri9817]

Lovely review. This was always one of my favorites. Even as a 7 year old, I remember feeling the weight of the events as they unfolded.

[@anthonyrogers6025]

A very excellent review of Harlan Ellison short story turned Star Trek Episode... My favorite TOS episode.

[@ThePendragon1998]

"Let's get the hell out of here" was fairly strong language for tv of the time. I imagine it was probably up there with "sheer fucking hubris."

[@caatcher]

I saw the episode when it first ran and, yes, it was shocking. The impact was considerable. NBC was smart enough to let them do it, though.

[@clairenollet2389]

I saw the episode when it originally aired. I think I was 6. I remember being a bit puzzled and dismayed when the next week's episode came on, and Kirk seemed to have forgotten all about Edith Keeler.

[@caatcher]

Picard easily put aside his decades-long life on that nova planet. If you're looking for loyalty get a dog, not a starship captain.

[@Alresu]

The pacifist being a reason the Nazis one could have been a way bigger point and an interesting message, since that was not an unlikely outcome. There is the rumor that Churchils reaction to Pearl Harbor was "We won the war". He certainly said something about it to that effect in a later interview. The USA was really hesitant of entering WW2 before that. They had to be dragged in by Japan. The episode could have shown way more clearly, that sometimes, in the face of aggression, peace is just not an option, since just practicing peace will not bring peace but just embolden the aggressor. Like with Russia. They took crimea without any consequences so they proceeded to attack Ukraine.

[@rt_goblin_hours]

Coming back to this video and saw this comment and it'd be really cool to see that kinda arc explored alongside a federation trying to avoid war but only making stuff worse

[@GrannyGamer1]

It broke my 14 year old heart. And i knew it was utterly necessary. Ecxellent review! 💯🖖🏾

[@rogershore3128]

I remember watching it on it's original transmission in 1970 (UK) in mono and it's never been bettered. Top tier TV even today....

[@ariadnavigo]

Yay! One of the Best TV episodes EVER! (I'm rewatching it after your review!) 😍

[@thegneech]

Honestly, for all of Harlan Ellison's famous rancor (which I realize is a topic for another video), I think that overall the final version is better, and if I recall correctly, that's due to D.C. Fontana.

[@sunspot42]

The original story is great sci-fi, but crummy Star Trek. I think it was Roddenberry himself who re-wrote it, but it's been awhile so my memory is probably off. Maybe it was Fontana. Either way, what we ended up with is still great sci-fi, but it's also great Star Trek.

[@FreihEitner]

Totally agree. Sure the episode turned out quite different from Ellison's vision of it, and as a creator it can be difficult to distance oneself from "they changed my vision", but it still wound up being one of the best, if not the best, Trek episodes of all time.

[@michaelhall2709]

Roddenberry, Gene Coon, Fontana and even story editor Steve Carabatsos all did drafts in response to Bob Justman’s 7-page single-spaced memo detailing why Ellison’s original script, however brilliant, was unfilmable. Though, who precisely was responsible for what in the aired version has been lost to time.

[@Luredbyradium]

Yes. A world of yes!

[@OscarFowler]

Even as a kid seeing this episode for the first time, Nimoy's delivery of "He knows, doctor. He knows." and Shatner's "Let's get the hell out of here." absolutely shattered me. Definitely one of those episodes that cemented Star Trek's legacy.

[@michaelphillips3170]

The City on the Edge of Forever is my all time favored I old enough to have seen it first run but it was on a black and white 20 inch TV when I seen it years later in living color it was even better.

[@AndrewD8Red]

TOS may be at the bottom of my Trek list (still love it, obv.) but this episode is absolutely outstanding. The quality of the episode is even more remarkable when you consider the very fulcrum upon which this whole adventure balances is a magic, talking hula hoop with the most Dwarves and Goblins name you could imagine: *THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER*

[@willmfrank]

His name is Carl; Carl the Talking Time Donut. 😉😁 But yeah; Angry Young Man Harlan gave him the name of a terrain piece from Dungeons and Dragons...before DnD was even a thing.

[@AndrewD8Red]

@@willmfrank McCoy rolls 1d12 Critical success! *trips spaceballs*

[@cwdkidman2266]

At the bottom of your list? Everyone else built on what these guys started. It's like in Monty Python fandom, there is a divide between Holy Grail and life of Brian. Yes, life of Brian is more consistently good, but it never reached the heights Holy Grail did. And it was never as low,as low as at certain points in the 400 PEOPLE. Brian is a better built movie, sleeker and better paced. And is just a very very good tv show. TOS came out in 1966. The acting could be over the top and the music was bombastic and the effects looked cheap. But who cares? It was iconic. It was good for the60 years. Screw the cheese and enjoy the first and best look at the story, charactrts and the music.

[@captainyossarian388]

I absolutely love how sharp Edith is, correcting her tense when Kirk mentions the future novelist: "Who is he? Where does he come from? Erm, where will he come from?" The way she stares in wonder at that star in Orion when Kirk points it out. Also the Guardian is a real ahole at the end, "All is as it was before." Really? What about the guy in the 30s who vaporized himself with a phaser? What about Kirk's heart that's been busted into a million pieces?

[@caatcher]

I almost hate to point out that there'd be no way you'd be able to see Orion in the NYC sky in 1930. The city lights would have been much too bright.

[@khaerinaenno]

> What about Kirk's heart that's been busted into a million pieces? ...again, which wouldn't be remembered ever again.

[@johnmarx3919]

Ever hear of light pollution?

[@frazerx01]

Fortunately there were no rocks inside Sulu's console. Haven't watched the episode for a long time. But the character interactions are great. Spock's understanding, Kirk's conflict and McCoy's character traits are all brilliantly conveyed and the message of the episode is understandable and heart breaking: "The needs of the many." Great Episode, as is this series. Thank you, Steve!

[@simonpeteradkins]

The pacing of the ep is interesting. The tension builds slowly and suddenly peaks and falls at the very end. There's no time for denouement or grieving. Just a stab of heartbreak and then "Let's get the hell out of here."

[@chuckaaron2014]

EDITH WAS THE ONLY DEATH BY TRAFFIC ACCIDENT IN "MAYBERRY "

[@mrtrek2117]

So funny, I did the very same review of this episode on my channel, yours is so much more detailed than mine though. Murderers!!! Assassins!!! Great review Steve! :-)

[@stevengalloway8052]

The greatest of the original episodes. Just pure, classic Trek. Brilliant synopsis of this... 😏

[@charlietoole8707]

There are a few Perfect moments in all of media, entertainment and storytelling history. This episode is one of those few.

[@krazyglue60]

Steve, I have to say I really LOVED how you and Jason incorporated this episode into The Ensign’s Log. Absolutely brilliant, and you did it without break canon!

[@anuwynn666]

Thanks!

[@seantlewis376]

I love your narrative summary of this, the greatest episode of TOS! You're right about it having such tight pacing that while a 2-parter would have been OK, it wasn't needed.

[@andrewmurray1550]

It's a pity they didn't use the "you're from outer space"; "No, I'm from Iowa...I only work in outer space" lines here as it would fit Edith's character perfectly......which would be funny being reprised by Gillian in Star Trek IV.

[@andrewmurray1550]

This episode could also have worked "Groundhog Day" style, where they are stuck in a time-loop until they fix the thing that causes it - Edith's survival of the accident. OK,time-loops in Star Trek are done to death, but so are time-travel eps.

[@morlockmeat]

This episode is just plain good television.

[@markkdrew]

What a great insightful analysis. I always really liked this episode but i understand it better after your review. Solid good job

[@quonomonna8126]

The perfect episode of Star Trek.

[@SupremeCleave]

I always felt that Spock needing a computer to access the tricorder's data was kind of dumb. Why not just have the device damaged when they arrived, maybe by the struggle with the police officer? Then Spock has to repair it with stone knives and bearskins, showing how inventive and brilliant he can be. Just a minor complaint for my favorite TOS episode.

[@reginaldstyles9549]

One Of The Greatest Brilliant Episodes Of All Times Legendary Story And Acting By All 🙏😢❤️

[@jaidixit7907]

Very well written and delivered. Thanks for this. (tCotEoF is my personal 2nd favorite of all ST episodes, instalments, movies, etc. and you covered it thoroughly and with an intellectual honesty as to why it both "works" and is so rightly revered).

[@bclapp2483]

I always wondered if later kirk wondered if he could have taken edith (cue doc brown ) back to the future. This would have been a dream come true for her. The headline would have changed to social worker disappears. Later he would do just that in st 4 .

[@castironchaos]

...they beam up, leaving the Guardian as they found it. Unguarded. Free for any passing spaceship to drop by, take a time trip, and change history. Klingons, anyone? Ferengi? Cardassians? The Gorn?

[@allenrubinstein3696]

You wouldn't know it from watching Star Trek, but space is really, really, really, really, really big.

[@peterparicka7933]

Incredible episode 🎉! Great writing and great acting

[@martyrocks2091]

Easily one of my favourite episodes. The comic book adaptation of Harlan Ellison's original script is well worth tracking down.

[@liontone]

If people weren’t so greedy about writing royalties, Ellisons original script would be an awesome Kelvin-Verse movie.

[@michaelhall2709]

Pleased to say that they published my letter to the editor in the final issue, and that it ain’t bad. I met the artist a couple of years later and purchased from him the panel where Kirk and Spock argue (much more passionately than in the aired episode) the necessity of Edith Keeler’s death.

[@hadorstapa]

I recently got the audiobook with Harlan Ellison's story of how the episode came to be, including a summary, early draft, and his thoughts on what happened with Roddenberry's perspective on and changes to the story. It's pretty damning of Roddenberry (which is to be expected - he and Harlan Ellison had a famous and long-standing feud) and the story does indeed feel very different in tone and scope. It would be fascinating to have your perspective on the might-have-beens of the story, if not on Ellison's vitriol.

[@the13thdoctorstardis94]

He did do a video on it! m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/e2aUmWatmb-MZpI&pp=iAQB

[@allanolley4874]

Steve Shives did a video on the subject looking it up it is titled: "Would Harlan Ellison's Original "City on the Edge of Forever" Actually Have Been Better" Done 2 years ago.

[@The_Real_Kyrros]

Steve did a whole episode a couple years ago on the whole Ellison back-and-forth and whether the original story would have been better or not - I imagine a lot of those opinions of Steve's still stand today. If you've already seen that episode, then I apologize to all of you for having to 'witness' my superflous comment ;-) 🖖

[@Rocketsong]

While Ellison famously feuded with Roddenberry, it's almost 100% certain that it was Coon and Fontana who did the re-write. The original treatment is a good story, but it's not a good Star Trek story. Characterization is off. It reads like an outstanding 1-hour episode of The Twilight Zone, or Outer Limits, instead of Star Trek.

[@karlkutac1800]

I always loved McCoy's double-chop and how the music was exactly chororeographed. Classic.

[@brad9189]

One thing always makes me chuckle--in the episode's credits, the vagrant who accidentally disintegrates himself with McCoy's phaser is simply named "Rodent." And I think you're right Steve, the episode does an excellent job of building a realistic relationship between Kirk and Edith, very efficiently giving us the sense Kirk and Spock have been in the past at least a couple of weeks. This is in contrast to Requiem for Methuselah, (which I rewatched recently), where we somehow are expected to believe that in only a few hours--while his crew is being ravaged by some killer disease--Kirk manages to fall passionately and insanely in love with a complete stranger.

[@caatcher]

The episode is not very clear about this, but Rodent's death by phaser is where history changed. Rodent was supposed to rape and murder Edith at some near point, but of course his death prevented that. The episode never explained why Edith had to die, and why she couldn't just go with with Kirk and Spock when they returned to the future.

[@DavidNash1948]

I like Harlan Ellison. He was a great writer. I read his script. It sucked. The show as aired was far better. Just what I think. Besides, it is now obvious that McCoy caused The Man in the High Castle universe. Or maybe the Mirror Universe. Or...

[@logiciananimal]

There is one bit from the original that I think is wonderful, but it only works if you take out all the other times Spock calls Kirk "Jim". This is the "destroyed Kirk" scene at the end ; Spock's line about "the silverbirds against the sky" - like so many of his in this episodes show that Spock, like the others, is an emotional *and* thinking creature ; he is just one with a balance in a different place.

[@BillSchwan]

I know it was a different story, but really worse?

[@robertkelley3437]

Glad to hear Jason is doing much better.

[@8cupsCoffee]

These are fun, I miss talking with friends about Star Trek and this kinda meets that need for me. It's just been such a long time since these came out, that it's not usually topic of conversation.

[@nightdragon8364]

It still brings a tear to my eye when I watch this episode, especially after Kirk prevents McCoy from saving Edith. 😢

[@peterferber1527]

Steve: I totally agree that COTEOF is av mastetpiece. I also love your commentary on the comic book, which hones more closely to Harlan Ellison's original composition. Both are excellent as stand-alone stories and as a fascinating study in nuanced contrasts. Thank you Steve. ~ Peter Ferber

[@DamnableReverend]

Definitely a great episode. I think it was your video on the original harlan Ellison script that got me to subscribe to the channel. I still wish a little more of that had made it into this, but never mind, still a great episode.

[@logiciananimal]

This is my favourite episode of Trek and one of my favourite pieces of fiction, period. Some thoughts: I always thought of "Guardian of Forever" as suggesting that somehow, it has the role to ensure weird twists to history happen. If one assumes it has the power to temporarily disrupt communications (which is not likely hard) then it basically facilitates Kirk, Spock and McCoy into completing a predestination paradox of sorts (and no "history was changed" oddity is needed). Edith's death seems pretty clear to me to be *caused* by the time travelers, not merely in the sense that it was not prevented but also in the sense that it is their jubilant reunion that seems to distract her and get her to start across the street. I've never understood why (other than to generate some great lines!) Spock had to *steal* the tools; surely he could have at least tried to arrange to borrow them. Speaking of, why do I have the feeling that if the Voyager writers got to rewrite Spock's lines in this episode that it would be flooded with technobabble? I like that - it doesn't matter what Spock does exactly, just that he does and it is a big challenge for him. I also point to this episode to those who think Shatner was always a ham and Kirk was a womanizer. Yes, he has a girlfriend here, but oddly (actually, not - but...) he's very reserved and "gentlemanly". Finally - people hate Uhura's line about being frightened, thinking it is sexist to give the line to the woman. All I can say is: watch Shatner - Kirk is clearly also scared. And, as Worf puts it much later - only fools have no fear.

[@RonaldGibson699]

The episode that made me a Star Trek fan 4 life.

[@philiptite6254]

I love this TOS episode. Thanks for an engaging look back (pun intended). You mentioned the pacing here, and I totally agree with you. It is spot on, allowing good plot, fun adventure, and near perfect character moments driving everything. As you spoke, I thought of Ellison's original screenplay, which, thanks to your other video, I now have (and I enjoyed reading that published version). I'd love to see you revisit Ellison's version re the pacing (and do realize, I love both versions - they sre both, uniquely, masterpieces). For me, the televised version is much tighter and better paced, while the original has a richness all its own.

[@ameliadesertsong]

I remember the first time I saw City on the Edge of Forever. It was the 25th anniversary of Star Trek and I was six years old. There was a marathon of the best original Star Trek episodes. I literally grew up with Next Generation, and the original 60s show was so different. Yet when I saw this episode on that countdown, I do believe it was number one, I fell in love with the Original Series. Even a six year old could appreciate the weight of Edith Keeler having to die, the right person with the right message at the wrong time. I really appreciate your analysis and insights into this episode. It’s funny just how much the final product differed from Harlan Ellison’s draft, but I do believe Trek is better for the changes that were made, because I don’t think any episode of the original series comes close to how perfect this one is.

[@caatcher]

I wish I didn't remember it this way, but the night this episode first ran, I was watching while waiting for my father to come home from one of the endless and dreaded parent-teacher conferences staged by my high school. My father had also attended that school and, almost pitifully, couldn't keep himself away from the place. I am so glad those days are over. (The school gave up trying to contact me only a few years ago.)

[@joearnold6881]

I loved the bit in Hamilton’s Pharmacopoeia where he experimented with space goofballs and went into the past. Such a good documentary.

[@DawnDavidson]

Yes! Loved that show :)

[@GrandmasterBBC]

This is easily one of the best episodes of the series. It is one of the things that made TOS so incredibly Epic.

[@liontone]

Everything Star Trek needs to be. The top of the mountain, and the episode that serves as a benchmark for all other great Trek episodes, of all series’

[@travismoore7938]

I love this episode! When I first saw it as a rerun, I was a child and really didnt appreciate it. As I grew older, I came to realize how good the episode is and what it was trying to say. Kirk had such an impossible choice in this episode.

[@Alresu]

I liked the bit a of banter from Kirk were he goaded Spock to making the computer by telling him that he obviously overestimated his abilities when he first asked for it.

[@buckocean7616]

I think this episode of, at the time of its original airing, my favorite SF series, fundamentally changed me, or to be more accurate, expanded my consciousness. This one was a gut punch, and gave the characters involved a gravitas that was unexpected. It was the best of what TOS could be. Dealing with societal issues in such a heartfelt way. Damn. As Steve says, those last lines ... "He knows Doctor, he knows." "Let's get the hell out of here." were delivered perfectly. Still bring tears to my eyes.

[@TheSheebeen]

I remember buying books of Star Trek short stories (basically monetised fanfic that was professionally published) and in one was a return to this ep, where as time at the Guardian moves on, Uhura, Scotty and Random Redshirt Nobody Cares About all end up together in the Mission. And it still ended with "Let's get the hell out of here." Because it's iconic. Beautiful speculative fiction that turns the whole "what if time travellers killed Hitler" question on its head. You have to go through the bad shit to get to the good. And packing such an emotional punch. One of my favourite episodes of all TV ever, let alone the franchise.

[@RichardGradwell]

My favorite episode of the original series.

[@weskan8722]

Always thought is was cool that in Diane Carey's 1986 Star Trek novel "Battlestations" that Kirk had a sailboat named "Edith". Of coarse the main character in that novel had no idea who Edith was.

[@CB-mi9sk]

This episode is an essay as to why I love Star Trek so much. Carefully and beautifully crafted Science fiction.

[@ryanedwards7487]

This really is one of the best TOS episodes. I will always love this one. This is one of them that, if I'm flipping the channels or I see TOS on streaming, I have to watch. It's so extremely good. And, if you look at it, by letting Edith Keeler die they serve her ultimate ideals: Peace was (and sorry everyone who thinks otherwise, IS) the way to a brighter future, and her death caused the peace she longed for so much. It's a terrible, brutally bittersweet read on her tragic death, but it does give it meaning. It's meaning that Kirk and Spock understand, but, as Oedipus Rex reminds us: Truth is always the best, but sometimes it is terrible to know and behold. Also, this really is one of the best acted episodes, with the 4 key players on their A game throughout. The ending is a punch to the gut, and Kirk's face sells it. It's a terrible loss. His heart is torn open, laid bare, and the way he says his line about going home shows loss, anger and a level of shocked, numbed apathy that I would expect. You feel the horror and despair in McCoy's questioning about why Kirk stops him from saving her. And you see Spock as a Vulcan-Human hybrid. He's not unemotional (and the naysayers are wrong, he rarely ever is), but this is one of the few episodes where you see him showing empathy and care so vividly. He's not brutal and cold, but he's logical. He doesn't want Edith to die--he feels she doesn't deserve to die--but she has to in order to set the future down the right path. He's not a robot, he sees his friend falling for her, and he doesn't want Kirk to go through what he knows he will, so he tries to soften the blow. "Jim--Edith Keeler must die." It's logical, but not cold. His words, and his delivery hint that he would do anything as well to stop it, but he can't. Now, if only the humpback whales had been in this episode they could have brought her along. After all, if she's not there in the 20th century, the Nazis still lose. She doesn't have to die, she just has to not be there. But maybe the Guardian of Forever doesn't follow the same time travel conventions as a Klingon Bird of Prey's transporters and sunshine-slingshot physics.

[@crystalheart9]

That was a fabulous episode and I enjoyed your review of it. I just saw it again the other day.

[@clairenollet2389]

I think David Gerrold wrote that after this episode, a fan wrote into the producers of the show, and asked where he could get some of that whacky drug that sent McCoy trippng out.

[@willmfrank]

I read that too; If I recall correctly it's in "The World of Star Trek."

[@willmfrank]

Oh! And by the way, kudos for spelling "Gerrold" correctly. 😉😁 (Half of the references to him in this thread alone spell it "Gerald.")

[@robertkelley3437]

You forgot to mention the help Kirk and Spock received from Ensign Shives and Ensign Ryker. The two ensigns went back in time with a time machine built by their pet dog spot. In running from the cops and trying to get back to their time they steal a truck and runover Edith. Then they all go back to the future.

[@JGlaister]

Predestined, of course. That rescue mission, though.

[@jeffgilfoy9453]

I know it would have been totally out of place contemporarily, but imagine the impact the final line would have had it it just faded to black, credits, no outro song. Silence.

[@bw786]

1000% yes

[@johnmarx3919]

As in the Sopranos?

[@Tolly7249]

While I don't love this episode as much as the fandom in general, that final scene is heartbreakingly good and the story as a whole is very strong. It's one of the reasons TOS has lived on so long in the hearts and minds of fans.

[@willmfrank]

This Retro Review is a perfect companion to the Trek, Actually episode "Would Harlan Ellison's Original 'City on the Edge of Forever' Actually Have Been Better?" Watch them back-to-back. Thank me later.

[@docweidner]

The Star Trek Timelines game is basically a card collecting game. Each card has attributes for missions like Science, Engineering, Command, etc. It also gives a bonus to ship battles, increase damage, reapair ship, etc. Edith Keeler's "card" gives you a bonus to Evasion in ship battles when you use her.

[@pauljohnson271]

Please never quit.

[@markcorcoran482]

Joan Collins describing Edith at a mid 1970’s televised sci-fi something or other: “ She thinks Hitlah is a good guy.”

[@tonyclemens4213]

This episode is a classic for good reasons and it still works today