Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S1E08: Justice

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[@SLackerLX]

Agree with Archengeia about this pile of s. episode. However I actually like the final words of Picard there, right before beaming to back to ship: "There can be no justice so long as law is absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions."

[@DrownedInExile]

Yup. As usual, Picard saved it.

[@Dan-uv5lw]

Remember, The killed Tasha off by an oil slick that enveloped Riker.

[@rad666a]

He hates this episode, probably want's to get this over with as quickly as possible, and then he rants for a hour and thirteen minutes about it ;)

[@physics2112]

Rush has songs that are as bad as this episode, and they could be analyzed for as long or longer.

[@dragonsword7370]

Is this that "Don't TOUCH THE GRASS under penalty of Death" Episode?

[@rheiagreenland4714]

yes

[@thexalon]

Relevant real-life points of comparison, if there had been any interest in such things: - Tahiti became a popular spot for shore leave precisely because it was a "free love" society. Sailors always like stops like that, especially when it's all-male crews. - There are historical legal codes that prescribe the death penalty for all crimes mentioned. Those legal codes only really had laws for the really big crimes (major robberies, murders, etc). Also, Picard should have now learned to be more skeptical of Riker when Riker has just gotten laid. That said, the "They're in a zoo" explanation is the best explanation I've heard of yet for these people. Now, as for why this star cluster or the aliens who appeared rather god-like to the aliens on the planet and even completely outclassed the Enterprise are conveniently never mentioned again...

[@ShamrockParticle]

Their ship was shown in a season 5 story (Conundrum)? Was that due to saving on fx costs, or is this another example of small universe syndrome? For once I'd entertain the latter as there'd still be plenty of mystery and more to them than a multidimensional pet owner watching their pets produce a return... and new recipes for massage oil 🤣

[@paulscott2037]

In regards to why the flagship of the fleet was tasked with a job it wasn't best suited for I can imagine that since the Enterprise is a brand new ship Starfleet has been tasking it with a variety of different roles as a shakedown. One thing I notice about season one is that PIcard seems to be far more often on a very specific mission, as opposed to later seasons where his logs indicate "we are exploring such and such a cluster" or "we are patrolling one expanse or another". Much more generalised duties where Picard has much more apparent leeway with what he wants the ship to achieve. We can surmise by that then that brand new ships tend to be kept on a short leash on their first year in space then let loose after a shakedown. Geordi implies this about the Enterprise E in first contact and it would also explain why Voyager had so many issues with supplies in its first season despite technically being a long range - deep space starship.

[@mopeybloke]

The reason they state they cannot allow ignorance of the law to be an excuse is because that is also true in our legal systems.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

In Lambert v. California (1957), the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that a person who is unaware of a malum prohibitum law cannot be convicted of violating it if there was no probability he could have known the law existed.

[@markbeck449]

Lore, I have to say: these are damn entertaining ruminations.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

I find I enjoy listening to the reason he hates something more than I enjoy listening to what he sort-of likes... his rants and gushing is the best😀

[@adamwintz1072]

I love this one! A season one classic!

[@ShamrockParticle]

Two weeks ago it wasn't the first day of April? 🤭 what makes this episode stand out for you? I think it's a cobbled mess that had potential...

[@DefSquadFan]

@@ShamrockParticle Some people just like that cheesy TOS style show. Sometimes bad episodes are memorable and therefore Classic.

[@gingeroverseer9302]

I had my money on this ep being lamentation for sure. You are indeed merciful! I love this channel excellent content eloquent reviews and a great voice to listen to

[@tonebonebgky2]

Perhaps they were warp capable but the god ship wouldn't allow them to leave thier system anymore for some unexplained reason and the advanced tech they truly held though not obvious in the 40 minutes or so that we saw. Outside of that there's little hope for the episode.

[@reyjusuf]

If anything, this episode shows what a terrible officer Tasha was for not finding out the local law

[@chriscolabella880]

This felt more like therapy than a Rumination

[@ShamrockParticle]

Fine by me, these are the best sorts of Ruminations! 😍

[@FreihEitner]

I watched this episode the first time it aired in 1987 and never saw it again until the 2010s, yet I remembered it clearly as "the episode where Wesley is sentenced to death for stepping on some flowers". On finally re-watching it 23+ years later, I found it was still no better than that memory. *sigh* I hate ST:TNG season 1.

[@mitcharcher7528]

I still haven’t rewatched it since then. Stupid situation, stupid world.

[@danielyeshe]

Couldn't they have solved this in the way McCoy dealt with Kirk in Amock Time? Basically they claim that the injection would cause Wesley pain: these are aliens after all with different biology. Then Crusher injects Wes with something that simulates death. So the Edo believe him to be dead but he isn't - problem solved.

[@MrMartechi]

And if they really want to go the extra mile, they could even legitimately kill Wesley for a minute or two before reanimating. So 'technically' it's their justice served.

[@williamozier918]

Whoa, Lorerunner, you just helped explode my headcannon! As you pointed out they are exploring this cluster and settling a colony. Now this is ALL headcannon because obviously the writers didn't intend this but: If you look at the episode order a sensible pattern begins to emerge. 1) They reach Farpoint Station, the furthest outpost of the Federation. 2) The Naked Now, well that's just some random stuff that happened in deep space. 3) Code of Honor, because that is a society that is non-federation but has been contacted. As you noted that planet's tech level was all over the place and Picard was kissing their butts, BECAUSE they are the only known species near the cluster in this episode and so the Federation is kid gloving them to make the foothold. 3) they pass planet Where-Yo-White-Women-At and proceed to the cluster. 4) On the edge of the cluster they discover the Last Outpost of the long ago fallen T'Kon Empire. 5) In Lonely Among Us they try to stabilize relations between two other species out here among this cluster, bringing their allies in this region up to 3. 6) With that done they establish the colony. 7) so remember, the Last Outpost implies that this cluster used to be part of the T'Kon Empire, and lo and behold they run into an ancient machine maintaining something akin to a wilderness preserve, but I think of it more as a carefull maintained gene pool of flora and fauna and intelligent species.

[@williamozier918]

and why would they send the flagship to do these missions in this cluster? Well remember, the Cardassian War is still going on one sector over.

[@watchingfromtheshadows1338]

I liked this episode. It's the kind of world I'd want to live in.

[@ShamrockParticle]

The one thing told even less in this episode is the issue of STDs (aka cooties). Two, if you consider that some pretty people don't get on (involuntarily) as well.

[@reyjusuf]

I actually give this one a C. It's so cheesy that it's actually entertaining.

[@ronaldsprowal9978]

I really liked this Episode one of my all time Favorites

[@MrRandomcommentguy]

I like early TNG so much because it has this jarring blend of the sophistication Trek would become known for in the mid to late 90's, and full-on TOS-level camp. Oddly this is a combination I find irresistible.

[@Bojack727]

This isn't a good episode, but I remember there were a few little things here and there that were interesting: I remember thinking that the optical effect used for the Sentient Spacecraft was pretty cool. And your take on the story, of a "Wildlife Refuge" filled with niaive open humanoids would actually be a pretty cool take on the sheep-like surface people in H.G. Well's "Time Machine".

[@RhayneAedyth]

I have to say that, going into it without analysis-mode on, i really enjoyed "Justice". I know, right? I actually felt the suspense regarding Wesleys Fate and was legit wondering how they would get him out of the situation. Also I was quite invested in the Edo and wanted to know more about how their society works. It worked for me right until five minutes after watching it, when I realized some of the choices the writers made. In hindsight, it might be that i remembered the Edo so well from Star Trek: Birth of the Federation, that I was happy to see an episode about them.

[@RhayneAedyth]

Also i seem to remember from ST BotF, the planet is called Rubicun III, the race is called Edo, the thing in space is called the "Edo God"

[@reyjusuf]

Yes, the dilemma Picard had at the end was pretty suspenseful

[@ShamrockParticle]

​@@reyjusufthe dilemma, starting with Data babble onward, is a real good payoff for the sheer levels of uneven drek leading up to it.

[@awittyusernamepleaselaugh7481]

How to solve the episode's dilemma in two words... "Diplomatic immunity".

[@stevenreeves9092]

I like the story of Justice and the lessons. Dig deeper beyond the superficial.

[@ShamrockParticle]

It has good ideas, but despite being open to interpretation and letting viewers think what they want after a point, the story's execution is such a mixed bag. His points are valid...

[@MidnightSt]

puinshment zones - i understood it that the things are always illegal everywhere, but... they have limited enforcement resources, so they solve their distribution by these spots where they focus those resources. caution: resources to enforce are determined by the AREA which you need to control, not amount of people in that area.

[@williamozier918]

In my head cannon, yes this is Risa, and b) the god is a left over piece of Preserver technology who's mission is to maintain these people as a gene pool population. Also it i notable, that it was Riker who led the Away Team which came back to the ship and was like "We can have sex with them!"

[@ChocolatierRob]

I always remembered this as the 'Wesley falls in a flower bed and is sentenced to death' episode. Watching it again now I actually found it entertaining... as a parody. It was amusing to see how bad it all was. The last episode was just frustrating to watch their stupidity in but this one held a bit of Narm Charm. Also there is the very faint hope that Wesley is done for (I know he *isn't* but somehow that hope lingered on). It does remind me of the story of the Wandersail in Brandon Sanderson's Way Of Kings, I would not be surprised at all if that scene was inspired by this episode. I'll badly paraphrase it here. - This is a story being told by one character to another about a massive ship called the Wandersail which was constructed for a voyage into unknown lands. After a storm the ship is in need of repairs when it runs aground on an island, the natives are all kind generous people living an idyllic life and make the sailors welcome and offer their help. They live peacefully with them while the ship is being repaired. One day a child is serving them some food when she trips and spills it, the surrounding natives immediately descend on her with knives and kill her. When the shocked crew ask what caused this it is explained to them that their emperor will not forgive imperfection. Paying more attention the crew see more examples of this cruel justice happening around them and so they arm themselves and head off to the emperor's tower to confront this monster as the residents cower and look away. Shortly after entering the tower they return to the village carrying a litter bearing a skeletal body wearing grand robes. Seeing that their emperor is dead the island immediately descends into chaos and violence. The crew board their repaired ship and scarper bringing along the native woman who was their guide, asking her now what caused the rioting 'Holding a blanket around herself, staring with haunted eyes at her lands, she replied _"Do you not see, Traveling Ones? If the Emperor is dead, and has been all these years, then the murders we committed are not his responsibility. They are our own".'_ Now this works quite well as a parable... but it sucks as an episode of Star Trek. It's pretty easy to see the similarities between the two stories. The Edoiots are in a state where they don't have to think for themselves, when that system comes crashing down around them it will _not_ be pretty. The one who _really_ wants to execute Wesley (other than me) has done terrible things without having to face any responsibility for them, the chance that he may now have to is something he will not even allow himself to _consider_ contemplating. One last thing, when I rewatched this episode a few weeks back I was very confused when I paused it and saw that the were only three minutes left, 'how can they conclude the story in that time?' was pretty much my thought. the answer - They don't. They just suddenly leave. Crisis over.

[@6zzzzzz6zzzzzz6]

My first impression was O.K. here are the Eloi so where are the Morlocks, why there in space. Even the name are similar, Edo and Eloi. And like the eloi the people on the planet don't seem too have any problem with Death. Am I the olny one to see this?

[@Spawnfreak]

How did Arch not notice that the planet they were on was Starfleet Academy

[@jester9217]

This episode hit harder to me after playing mass effect as I started to think about what happens when you "uplift" a planet.

[@jackheggarty1929]

To be fair Lore, in the case of X-Men 3, the quality of acting could also be attributed to direction.

[@mrsaras1996]

Love your videos and your in-depth analysis on TV series, movies, games etc. Maybe you could do ruminations on Planet of the Apes movies 1968-1973.

[@jessemay1547]

I’m here for it! Great idea.

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

I haven't seen a lot of TNG but for some reason I DO remember watching this episode! Even with the vague edges of my recollection I remember I was left feeling dissatisfied with this one. My sympathies you had to watch this one. p.s. ...and now that I've rewatched it I have to agree with a lot of what you said. I felt they violated the Prime Directive from the start by choosing to meet the Edo-wegians in the first place. I'm sure in other places the PD was total non-interference and interaction a no-no. So why do they start having scruples only when they find out about the laws and punishments? The episode I'm sure now is intentionally made to look like TOS in feel, starting with the lighting but also with the dumbed-down nature of the story and the overacting. I wouldn't have minded it if it were in fact TOS but it isn't is it? And doing it in the late 80s I suppose there was still some of this style around, but it's irksome today. And the PDAs, the borderline to nudity without it being nudity, well that got rather hippie, especially hot on the heels of The Naked Now. It really made me wonder if we'd entered the hippie era again. I find it incongruous that Yar has such a positive lust at play with her considering the now-several times mentioned rape gang background. I mean, for me I'd tend to think with a background like that that either I'd go completely frigid, or become a debased slut, with neither being positive in any way. Yar's attitude doesn't gel with either of those scenarios. I felt the issue of justice could have been so much more compelling, but they end this episode with no strong resolution and no sense that Starfleet are better in this area. I think justice is actually the ugly cousin you need to hold the ship together and to not deal with it in a satisfying way is a sad miss. And yes, that scene with Data is the closest we got to it. It was a good scene I have to admit.

[@joshuaoneill3118]

Shaka....when the walls fell.....

[@StefanTravis]

This is a message story, and the message is a good one. It's "There can be no absolutes". But when the message is a single sentence, does it need a whole story to set it up? A lot of Twilight Zone episodes were like this - but they could be saved by performances and scripts. So I think the advice to aspiring writers should be: "If your main reason for writing the story falls flat, ask yourself is there enough remaining to make it worthwhile."

[@quasimodojdls]

"Hitler's Sex Planet episode". I'm gonna have to remember that one, that was pretty good. LOL! Good Lord, that brief description Lore gives of what the original story was sounds infinitely better than what we got. Leave it to Roddenberry to take what could have been an actually good/engaging story about morality and philosophical questioning with actual setting building and maybe a few nice action sequences and turn it into something about a bunch of ignorant assholes who completely shatter an entire planet's understanding of the world just because they're really horny. Yar's character continues to be used horribly. Check. The guest characters are all laughably stupid and/or annoying. Check. The rest of the main cast continue to act like pompous asses. Check. They had a chance to rid us of Wesley once and for all but passed. Check. The setting makes no damn sense. Check. The whole "free love" aspect of the episode really grates on me. I mean, I'm about as shallow as they come, but even I wouldn't want anything to do with these people. Seriously, everyone is just like.... "screw relationships, screw commitment, screw any kind of emotional connection, let's just get straight to the humping"? Really says something about Roddenberry's views on sex, doesn't it? So, the central "problem" in the episode is that Wesley is going to be executed and how are they going to save him. Well, I'll offer a suggestion - let him die. No, I'm not making an anti-Wesley joke. I'm serious. Just let them inject him with the poison and then revive him on the Enterprise, you know like they did with Yareena back in "Code of Honor". It's nice to see the show already ignoring established continuity. What did having the spaceship be a god-figure to these people add to the episode? Nothing, other than to make the "religious people" look foolish in the extreme. TNG, especially early TNG, is terrible when it comes to its treatment of religion in general but I'll save my thoughts on that until it's actually a main point in an episode, like with "Who Watches the Watchers". Another Lamentation-level episode for me - the THIRD one thus far in Season One! Christ, how did TNG stay on the air?! 0/10

[@EPgeek]

"Just let them inject him with the poison and then revive him on the Enterprise...." That's up there with the concept of a fuse - it's too "primitive".

[@nemesisPhD]

When referring to this episode my personal shorthand has always been "planet porn with the death penalty".

[@tomtom34b]

51:20 brilliant! haha. I think a lot of people hated Wesley back in the day, but when we grow up, we started to love him in a strange way. At least I have this strange love-hate relationship :-)

[@m.k.v.g.7203]

Tasha was in charge of reviewing their legal system: "Common sense things" was her report. Ignorance of the legal system must have exculpatory effect as long as the scope of the law was not made clear to visiting offworld parties. nullum crimen sine lege.

[@sharkdentures3247]

Firstly, I would have remembered the episode had you described the plot. I (kinda) liked it (a tiny bit), Secondly, I'm surprised the 'original' script would be considered to 'dark' for Roddenberry. There were some TOS episodes that were dark, or ended on a dark note. Third; I kind of disagree on the 'crime of ignorance' thing (but I still have a brain). To me, the crime is the incompetence of the 'scouting party' not learning about this 'one size fits all' punishment system before these 'European 19th century sailors took shore leave on a tropical island'. I agree with your idea about changing Yar. Maybe she should've still been going through the report & maybe objected to sending more people down until she finished reviewing the report. (but Riker overruled her?) Finally, I truly wonder if Lorerunner & I ever met, if we would get along or not. Because, unlike him, I LOVE playing 'devil's advocate'. (I have since I was a child) lol

[@Planetdune]

This was one of my favorite episode when I was young. But I really liked Wesley.

[@Filemonefly9]

Troy and Wesley naked on Rysa.

[@roypearson1245]

If you like these raps I'd really appreciate it you were my Facebook friend. Please. Peace.

[@jeffreymiller9438]

I think the hypothesis that an alien entity put the humanoids there in a habitat is the only way the episode makes sense. The Edo admit that they have myths of a violent anarchic past. The Laws were probably put in place to maintain the eco-system and protect it from the anarchy of the Edo. In a weird way, the Law created a Spartan Pleasure Race. Totally bizarre. As Lorerunner mentions, the outdoor location gives a great thematic feel, which is much appreciated after the blue screen backdrop set of the previous episode. I would have preferred even more suggestive attire by the Edo, and an even more Aryan look. It would have made it even more creepy. It needed a David Lynch touch. I see only one other comment below hinting at the voice of the 'Guardian entity': it sure sounds like Paul Winfield to me..

[@badmaninc.536]

As much as I loathed this episode, almost as much as I detested code of honor. I think it would have been interesting if we ended up running into the Edo again years later. Hear me out before you dismiss the idea. On Rubicon III, Wesley Crusher is the one fugitive who got away. He escaped his execution. He’s the one black mark on the record of their “justice system” so the Edo desperately wish to correct this. Therefore they throw themselves into growth and technological advancement for the sole purpose of hunting down this escaped fugitive and carrying out his execution. They would eventually hit a wall where they can’t figure out how to make warp technology work. Enter the Ferengi. The Ferengi as they would eventually become. The only thing they do is sell the Edo warp technology, perhaps at a discount if you will because “oh you mentioned that this fugitive is part of something called the Federation? Well we don’t particularly like the Federation either, so we’ll sell this to you cheap so you can stick a thorn in their paw.” Anyway, so now they have Warp capable ships, nothing that could match Starfleet, and a desperate need to correct their record, and they send out say five ships to search for Wesley Crusher. Granted they would never succeed in their goal and would probably be curb stomped and conquered say oh, eight years later by The Dominion. And when that happens the the Edo God gets completely annihilated by the Jem’Hadar, and the planet becomes a staging area for Dominion forces. When it eventually gets Liberated by the Federation, the Now Godless and directionless Edo, realize that “Hey these guys aren’t as bad as we thought, they didn’t have to help us but they did so anyway. Maybe we should stop messing with them.” I know it’s a pretty dumb idea, but it might at least salvage the terrible episode (a tiny bit) by giving it lasting consequences, that would establish some continuity.

[@EnvisionerWill]

I love this episode in spite of its flaws, but I will admit that you've called my attention to flaws that I never noticed while I was busy loving it. That'd be a shitty thing to do if the episode was a person, but since it's a story, I'm fine with you highlighting these issues (like the whole "first contact" problem that never occurred to me before, somehow).

[@EnvisionerWill]

The concept that it could be worth executing someone who disturbs flowers isn't quite as idiotic as you're saying. Imagine that those flowers are the only surviving sample of a species, maybe one that produces a valuable resource. Now say that this isn't actually that flower, but that the same protection is extended to all flowers, because it's not always obvious how valuable a flower is based on how it looks. You and I might think that it's obvious to keep the more valuable flowers in an isolated, well-protected location, but that's not these people's culture. They might not be very bright, but the fact that they value openness and freedom isn't exclusively them being stupid; they want to keep all beautiful things within easy view, so that everyone can appreciate such. It is a valid, if questionable, perspective.

[@EnvisionerWill]

As to Tasha Yar, she comes from a planet of rape gangs, but as the feminists are so fond of reminding us, "rape isn't about sex, it's about power". Whatever you can say against the Edo, they certainly aren't interested in dominating others. I do agree that one character should have had a negative perspective on all this, but I don't think it'd be Tasha; if you accept Naked Now as canon, it's very clear that she has a deep-seated desire to express her sexuality in the way that was never safe for her back home. You are right, however, that it's pretty bad for her to not know the local law enforcement. The best apologetic I can come up with there is that the Edo are so used to this concept of "all crimes are punished by death at random times, so nobody ever risks committing them" that they couldn't even *conceptualize* the idea. Tasha showed up and was like "I'd like to know about your laws", and the Edo couldn't come up with any real idea of what she meant, so they gave her a "full report" of various trivia about their history and whatever, and somehow Tasha mistook the list of "ten laws and five hundred customs" as being complete and balanced. Pretty bad, but I can forgive it more easily than you seem able to. I've always liked Tasha, and I don't count this as assassination of her character; it's 1/23 or thereabouts that we all have of her, and I'm fine with the idea that it's like 3% of her entire personality that's established in this episode.

[@mr51406]

Can I bring myself to watch the show again? 😖 (Not you Lore, I loved watching your quasi-lamentation again!) Credit: it does show that the creepiest dystopias aren’t sombre, they’re lovely places full of sun, flowers and “beautiful, happy” people. 🔸Let’s face it, Roddenberry and his cronies were randy old men. (Not Justman I think… but Berman slotted right in there). The beginning of TNG was dated, bottom drawer concepts: 50s pulp/kitsch sci-fi, 70s softcore/sexploitation (which Roddenberry produced) and even blaxploitation, plus TOS rejects/leftovers. Roddenberry did what he could at first. Finally by mid-season the professionals (Berman…) came in to save and modernize the show.

[@corssecurity]

You're absolutely right yet another wasted opertunity to kill off Wesley!

[@Ansatz66]

Perhaps the most relevant trope would be: Crapsaccharine World

[@cu1744]

LOL "I'm star fleet. We don't lie"

[@Redshirt434]

Says Wesley who would later participate con a cover-up of an accident that got his friend killed.

[@PR--un4ub]

@@Redshirt434 Blame the writers.

[@videoboy001]

FYI Justice is Episode 7, The Battle is Episode 8. :-)

[@MFMegaZeroX7]

Only if you count Encounter at Far Point as 1 episode. Lore (and most official merchandise) count it as two.

[@MidnightSt]

actually i kinda liked picard's speech in this. it was not A Picard Speech. It was picard's apology speech. And it was as weak and weird as it should have been, given what he thought and how he felt.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Spoiler Alert : the Enterprise of Pike, Decker and Kirk has been retconned to be a Starfleet Flagship .

[@harpercole5321]

Enjoyably bad, for me ... similar to "Spock's Brain", or "The Room" to use a more modern example. It's strange to remember that I had no idea they were using Edo as a sex planet the first time I saw it, but I guess that was my child's perspective. There were certain games I didn't know how to play yet ... I do rather like the line, "There can be no justice while laws are absolute." And the Picard / Data scene was good; it makes me think of a similar scene between Picard and a fake Data in "Where Silence has Lease". Incidentally, the Edo Period in Japanese history was characterised by hedonism and isolationism, so I'll give them some credit there.

[@KatriceMetaluna]

"You are tearing me APART Riker!!! Oh hi Worf!" ...I'll see myself out.

[@maxh_music]

I viewed the 'babble' moment as a moment to demonstrate Picard's guilt to speaking rudely (or downwards) to Data. I think in Picard's mind he allowed his temper to be short simply because Data isn't human, yet Picard respects Data as any other human on the Enterprise.

[@mb2000]

It’s always fun to compare this planet with the one in “Code of Honor”. Ligon II was a primitive, tribal planet, populated by black people. Rubicon III is an idyllic planet where the mainly white population live in a virtual paradise with a ‘god’ watching over them. Yeah, nothing wrong with that...

[@1701Wren]

Jaywalking 😂😂😂 As a concept it doesn't exist in Europe We cross the road wherever we are

[@Dlytell]

What is the prime directive really for? To prevent cultural contamination and interference. That implies no contact with pre-warp societies until it has been completely examined. Most early TNG and TOS was bad at observing the prime directive especially when it came to a choice to save the ship or a regular cast member.

[@Dlytell]

om more thing I think it unfair to judge this early episode when the intricacies of the prime directive had not been worked out, but absent that it is a weak episode since there is no satisfactory resolution. most of the first season should be considered a write -off and ignored.

[@gustavmarie]

I generally see this as a really, really bad remake of the relatively poor TOS episode "The Apple" . Also, the whole free love planet thing has Roddenberry all over it. In the "Chaos on the Bridge" documentary, Ira Steven Behr describes talking to Gene about his idea for Risa the Pleasure Planet. Essentially it would have been the orgy scene from "Caligua" in space. Gene wanted bisexual orgies to be hinted at in the background shots, out of focus etc. Marina Sirtis wasn't exagerating when she called him a 'dirty old man'...

[@williamozier918]

So if they dropped a colony off on a nearby system that means the Enterprise has been carrying these colonists on board since Encounter at Farpoint. So I bet the class M colony they put the colony on was probably discovered by the USS Tsolokovsky from the episode the Naked Now.

[@oakleysierney1918]

I totally agree with you about the stupidity of The Federation just dropping in unannounced or even casually with a little advanced notice as to the effect it would have on the civilization's of that world when they also have on the other hand this thing called the 'prime directive' which is all about not interfering with less advanced civilizations. It's probably the stupidest and most glaring contradiction, not only in the Star Trek franchise but in all of TV.

[@jplongstreet8329]

Ooffff. Painful. Someone get this man a beer

[@fennshysa1]

"if it looks too good to be true - it more than likely is."

[@WolfestoneManor]

Best Prime Directive episode: Dear Doctor (ENT)

[@malvane8061]

If we go the route of continuity, the aliens cloaked in space lording over the Eloi on the surface are the Lyssians, seen again in Season 5 episode Conundrum.

[@timriggins70]

Didnt the trailer give the twist away? Didnt we know Wesley was going to get in trouble for breaking a trivial law before the episode aired?

[@rickardspaghetti]

I just realized. This was the first episode of TNG I ever watched...

[@clearmountain28]

Hey lorerunner. I love your reviews. I was wondering if you would do a discovery review. I don't mean episode to episode, but maybe a season review when it completes. For the record i actively hate Star Trek Discovery. But i am curious of your opinion. Either way, keep up the good work.

[@MollyGermek]

He did a poll at the start of the series and no one really wanted it.

[@joluoto]

I couldn't watch past episode 2 of Discovery. To me it was just completely unwatchable.

[@MollyGermek]

I have to say I agree with whoever thought that original script wouldn't have worked. Even getting away from how cynical it sounds, in a single hour of television I can't imagine you could do it justice. Not that they replaced it with anything good, but I hate missed opportunities more than terrible episodes. I've said it before, but the problem with the PD is that they treat it as if it's set in stone. Starfleet never fucking updates the thing, we just have crews deciding ad-hoc when they're going to break it for whatever reason. It's such an easy way to show Starfleet's not incompetent, and they never do anything with it. Also a bit irrelevant, but I fucking hate that colonisation in Star Trek isn't really discussed with the same ethical weight other subjects are given. No one brings up that maybe it's unethical to treat organic plant life as inferior to organic animal life, or that they might be colonising a planet that's home to a species of sapient insects? 'No life signs, it's ours now.' That's not entirely true. We have far less free time than peasants, the introduction of disciplined labour time during the industrial revolution dramatically reduced how much spare time we have. Technology doesn't reduce time worked, but instead increases product created (because that's obviously more profitable.) I mean it's a dumb way of showing the concept, but it's essentially building of Foucault's idea of the _Panopticon_ . That power can be maintained over people not through surveilling them constantly, but through making them unable to tell whether they're being watched. The absolute death penalty stuff for all crimes actually severely detracts from the idea of the punishment zones. If you always get the death penalty you're better off murdering your mugging victim than letting them survive, there's no functional difference in the consequences, but it might reduce the risk of you being caught. I'd disagree that consequentialist ethics is 'cold calculus' and unethical. It's only unethical because we know the heroes can always win. I think two different concepts would have been useful in discussing this. Mens rea and ignorance of the law. Mens rea means a 'guilty mind'. To commit murder you have to be shown to have a motive and want to kill someone for instance, without a guilty mind the crime is simply manslaughter or negligence, you didn't intend to kill someone they just died as a result of your actions. However you can't claim in court that despite having a motive and wanting to kill your victim, that you didn't know murder was a crime and therefore you can't be charged. Ignorance of the law wouldn't have been a defence Wesley could have used in an Anglo court on Earth.

[@Anolaana]

57:19 what does ~"potta examplei" mean? I could just be being dense and he could be saying "ponder example A" but I'm not 100% sure

[@kizunadragon9]

Tasha never once acted true to her backstory. For someone who fears or has experienced sexual abuse they are very much touch sensitive. You do not touch these people unless they want you to. They could have done so much to raise that kind of awareness with her character and they fell flat...

[@lostkeys1318]

Haha "funnelly enough" 1:14

[@47imagine]

This is actually a very common phrase in Great Britain, believe it or not

[@BradleytheDavis]

Sounds like an entire civilization that worships Kai Leng.

[@EnvisionerWill]

who?

[@MidnightSt]

i don't like TOS because it's more "cowboys in space" from the little I've seen, than "brains in space". So i kinda totally get why you don't like the TOS-vibing TNG episodes =D

[@roypearson1245]

I disagree about dark souls 3 but mostly I agree don't want no haters to interrupt my play so play skyrim and smash diddys to oblivion final fantasy 6 is your shit and you helped me much so crush Linkara with an armfast gun

[@Krisburturion]

On the positive side the Edo were a fairly decent minor race to get in Birth of The Federation.

[@Dlytell]

First it's called a "pen" name not a "Pet" name when a writer uses a pseudonym for a script he doesn't want his real name associated with, Second this episode misses the point the mission of the Enterprise is to seek out new life and new civilizations. Presumably to establish relations but they do not. They just trample Edo laws and customs and take off with Wesly. I was hoping they would have come up with a clever alternative like Picard offering to take Wesly's place and finding that execution was a trial by ordeal and pardon was granted if one could survive, and third the part I hate most is Picard lecturing the snobbish advanced intelligence that there can be no justice as long as laws are absolute, Then to prove his point he repeats it!

[@timriggins70]

The original script sounds like a Babylon5 episode

[@rozzie101]

Gates was my 1st crush....

[@EnvisionerWill]

@Lorerunner You keep using the word "credence" where the correct word would be "credit". I point this out not as a criticism, but just to hopefully help you be aware of this tic of yours; whether you're able to change this habit after being made aware of it, that's up to you.

[@timriggins70]

They are malevolent versions of the Caretaker.

[@ShamrockParticle]

7 rewrites... that explains some of it! 🤭 Especially when they forgot the reason why they were wanting Wesley to beam on down but then drool over how they "make wuv at the drop of a hat... any hat" (or any other article of clothing, what little exists!) The base premise isn't bad but those rewrites turned it into something so superficial and ridiculous... Yar got the worst handling of them all. No wonder Ms. Crosby wanted to leave! How often do the Edo get visitors? Hoping this would be the first or else the Edo dropped the ball. And what did Yar misinterpret? (Crosby did so much with the drivel accorded Yar. Makes me wish she was in season 3... she comes back in season 5, with a very creative premise, which is handled far worse than any misfires from season 1! 😞) the blu-ray shows the Edo fabric being pale blue or pale purple (pink)? inconsistently applied that begs some questions, some more interesting than others. Pity the episode is so bad that it's not worth exploring. There's a throwaway speech at the end about justice by Picard, but it feels like so much an afterthought once they got done with the ridiculous specifics. unless the point of the episode was the absurdity, but it could have been told a LOT better. And without so much body oil and hairspray that one feels sick all while watching. Worse, if they invented cigarettes and someone lit a match in just the wrong area... if things weren't hot enough before... if nothing else, colony building and first contact and other themes mishandled in this episode would be revisited individually and improved upon greatly. Coincidental, or did someone really sit through this one to see if any of its ideas could be retold properly?

[@ShamrockParticle]

Another fun point, the dude who throws the ball at Wesley was just as guilty considering his aim was directly at the "no trample zone"?

[@JohnStephenWeck]

Greetings. Keep in mind that the most universal taboo for humans is doing the right thing in front of everyone - who aren’t doing any such thing. The Justice episode is universally disliked because they are all exercising, and living heathy lives. Most people are living miserable lives with zero exercise, a diet that looks like a 4 year old designed it, and are consuming endless useless drugs. The Edo are completely the opposite. Bye :)

[@randomusernameCallin]

We are seeing things like this on the internet but even less proof.

[@HUNVilly]

Ah, right, the episode with the nipple people.

[@JanetDax]

Wesley and the Stupidians

[@Belzediel]

Aside from the Aryan thing, almost every issue with this episode could have been resolved because your, and others, assumptions about what we're looking at, is that it is an attempt to create a good society. What if it isn't? No one actually says that it is. How about; the Edogod find these humanoids, and are interested, but we're in that other cliche that we to them seem as ameoba. It's an experiment. Just as we have no concern whatever for bacteria, they have no concern for their subjects. "These humanoids have not done what we wanted them to, so we remove them from the experiment." When the Enterprise turns up it's an outside element futzing with the carefully established conditions, hence getting directly annoyed with them, and why they wouldn't give a hoot that they take Wesley and leave. Just like you would delete neural net software that doesn't do better in the digital maze. The maze IS arbitrary, there's no sense to laying it out like that, and death is the only option for not looking like you're better at solving it than others. It wouldn't matter, then, that these laws make no sense, these are subjects being conditioned for some reason, perhaps just to see what might happen. "Hey, we have the best maze solving software ever." "That's great, but you know I don't really see a pressing need to solve mazes." "Well, no, but the principle is sound." So the death penalty isn't there as a detterent; it's simply what happens if you don't perform well. As such, perhaps the Edo's reactions are themselves adaptations to a world which vacillates 100% between perfection and utter horror. How long have they been there? Perhaps the only way to react, or more likely the conditioned response bestowed on them, is to completely distance themselves. BUT They didn't put anything like that in the fucking episode, so it doesn't count for anything, this is, and always will be, shit. On the other other hand there's nothing in the episode that rules that interpretation out, either, so with that caveat it's not quite as awful in my head canon. It is still one I skip, though.

[@nemesisPhD]

Firstly I would preface my remarks with the following: I believe Justice is a very very poor episode of TNG. However I do see some of the aspects of Edo attitudes to the law as a way of showing the absurdity of how some people in our own world appear to view the law. I often see Americans commenting on some terrible injustice done to a person, (e.g. the caging of south American children who have been separated from their parents as they crossed the US border) justifying any cruel punishments with "they are criminals! If you don't want to have a horrible thing happen to you, don't commit a crime". In other words they see no difference between someone who shoots a shop owner so they can steal the cash out of the till, and someone who crossed a border to seek asylum without getting a visa first. They are both CRIMINALS, and all nasty things can be done to them with impunity. There are totally people and countries who say "ignorance of the law is no defence". Even my own country applies this principle. Say codeine tablets are legal in your country as a pain relief drug. If you travel abroad to another country you could be arrested and imprisoned as a drug dealer for having them if they are illegal in that country. Claiming you didn't know that they were illegal because you assumed that everywhere has the same drug laws won't help you. This is where I feel Tasha is very much to blame in this whole issue. She compiled a report, but did she brief the away team? Did she mention the whole white fences mean an area is out of bounds thing? Or the punishment zones (yeah very stupid idea, instead of having universal laws that are in place at all times and in all places let's keep people "on their toes" by changing where the law applies arbitrarily because that will keep everyone lawful...not). But I digress, the point is that sci fi should show the folly of certain cherished attitudes and philosophies as the authors see it. If the edo are a reflection of simple "black and white" thinking Americans who feel the death penalty is justified and that a crime is a crime no matter the type or the circumstances or age of the perpetrator. This gives Picard the ability to deliver what I think is the main message which is "There is no justice when the law is absolute". This is the real problem with the Edo system; that they have an absolute, unbending, uninterpretable judicial method where no room exists for considering a case on its unique circumstances.

[@corpuswhite]

Definitely thank you for sharing and helping me think. ! I have never liked it but now I definitely dislike it thank you for helping me think.!

[@kitbashbob6426]

Who watches the watchers!

[@EruditeFuzz]

Oh damn. Half an hour longer than than the episode. Didn't have fun with this one eh?

[@Northfan42]

You're right that Tasha should have had a problem with the Edo on Rubicon III. It rather seems like she does as she says "Any hat" to Geordi's comment "They make love at the drop of a hat." That could have been the beginning of an interesting sub-plot of her dealing with her personal difficulties, but is quickly scrapped and trampled on in the remaining scenes.

[@1300l]

The trouble is that the episodes are like a BAD TOS episode

[@roypearson1245]

Straight g read every star wars novel but it took two years for me to like or follow. I play modern war on veteran write songs to Eminem I'm feminen. Ride my huh how about ga nawn?

[@doctordo5710]

I think its pen-name, not pet? - or (sfdebris ;-)) the "I-HATE-THIS-name"!

[@AlucardNoir]

I might be wrong - I'm not by the way - but isn't "ignorance of the law does not excuse/excuses not" an actual principle in law?Presumed knowledge of the law and whatnot.

[@PatySeti2024]

I completely disagree with you!!! It is one of the most revealing episodes in regards to the nature of a "god" ...any being advanced enough to be regarded as superior and supernatural by a primitive civilization...

[@TheZestyCar]

Is he going to talk about the new Star Wars movie?

[@rmsgrey]

It's on his other channel - Lorerunner Stream Archives

[@peaceandwar771]

You gave Threshold a lamentation but not this. There was a scene in Threshold that you said you liked.

[@EnvisionerWill]

It was either his first or second Lamentation. He's up to four now. If he wants to keep having few of them, he needs to get stricter with the definition as he expands his body of work.

[@FranciscoMNeto]

Ahhh... TNG Season 1 ...and people trash Voyager. LOL

[@Shifter-1040ST]

Francisco M Neto Because Voyager was trash through all its seasons. 😜

[@Kibaoftheleaves]

How dare you

[@holden3]

Its por exemplo. Just sayin