Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S1E09: The Battle

[@dante_fr0mspac3]

Being an adult is watching some dude talk about star trek at 3am on christmas morning I guess.

[@StefanTravis]

20th Dec 2020. Somethings don't change much.

[@AlekTrev006]

A Christmas Rumination !? The perfect Stocking Stuffer for loyal fans of the amazing Lorerunner ! Thanks Lore, and hope you and family have a wonderful holiday :-)

[@mb2000]

One question: When Picard originally gave the order to abandon the Stargazer, why did he not order the ship to self destruct? Isn’t that standard procedure to stop Federation technology from falling into the wrong hands? (Which is exactly what happens!) Even if the self destruct system was broken, I’m sure phasering the warp core would have done the job. That should have been the main focus of his court martial and something brought up in this episode! Oh and I still have the whole Fact Files collection. Well the whole collection that was released in the UK anyway. I was pretty pissed when I found out it continued into Nemesis and later Enterprise in other countries...

[@supernoob17]

imo you should add the enterprise d ambient engine noise to all these tng ruminations

[@zeromancer-x]

Absolutely, but at a barely audible level.

[@ShadowStoryteller]

This episode in general made me think, in terms of the previous time we saw the Ferengi, as 'Previously, on the S.S. Nimrod'. I honestly think that if they spent more time thinking through how, and I can't stress that enough, the Ferengi were supposed to be a threat then maybe it would have sold it more than just an person in a rubber suit walking up to you and breathing in your face for a few seconds and then saying 'Fear Me'. You'd be better off getting a drugged out it's mind Volus to do the same job.

[@jimschuler8830]

Strangely, the Picard maneuver logically works a heck of a lot better as an alphastrike than an evasive maneuver. A warp bubble collapses the space in front of the ship, so at warp if you fired a beam precisely ahead of the ship along a straight course, all that energy would get trapped in that collapsing space, and it would all be released at once when the warp collapsed, to the great misfortune of whatever happened to be directly in front of the ship at the time.

[@jerryharris876]

48:40. There is a chance where the Ferengi can beam through shields. Chances are it's an oversight on the writer's side.

[@1300l]

I know why they wrote Wesley as that in this episode. It's the idea that "Kids are right some times and adults don't appreciate it". So the kid saved the day and no one take him serious.. So he act arrogantly when he knew he saved the day to push kids to believe in them self even when adults don't give you credit or opportunity. Does that mean it was good? Or that the reason justify the terrible writing? No.. But i bet this was the reason the bad writers done that.

[@timriggins70]

Always wondered if the Ferrengi attacked Picard because of Archer.

[@badmaninc.536]

Merry Christmas to you and your Family Lorerunner! I look at this episode as somewhat of a missed opportunity for the writers as a way to reintroduce the Ferengi as they would later become. Had it not been for the revenge plot overshadowing everything else, it could have worked. The scene with Bok and his officers on the Enterprise bridge where they reacted with astonishment at the gift of the Stargazer, could have worked brilliantly if the writers had written it better. Bok would have been regarded as brilliant by the Nagus for this move. The Federation distrusts the Ferengi as it is right now because of the mystery and hostility between them. Bok presenting the Stargazer as a method of opening the door for future business opportunities for the Ferengi with the Federation with no strings attached could have been written off by Bok as “cost of doing business/investing in future opportunities” Bok: “look, we obviously got off on the wrong foot before, the Ferengi Alliance would like to remedy that situation and establish better relations and future business opportunities with the Federation. Returning the Stargazer to you is in your expression, the olive branch to Federation. I will personally eat the cost for this venture if it will open up new opportunities for us in the future.” Yes at the time, his officers would at first be shocked that he would go out on a limb like this, but imagine if it would have paid off for the Ferengi. He would have been hailed as a gambler who bet big and won. And the rest of the episode could have been spent with the crew of the Enterprise trying to figure out what “the game” is, only to discover that there is no double game and the offer is genuine. Boom! We get the opportunistic Ferengi with their foot in the door, less adversarial and open to business ventures with them. It would have been more interesting, and made the Ferengi more viable, not necessarily as an enemy, but also not really as an ally either. What do you think?

[@dancingbearandkoala9743]

Watching a new Lorerunner review just before my christmas dinner with a drink in one hand and my phone in the other could not be more happier 😂😂

[@DJonScott]

In general, in the TNG era, ships can beam in and out through their own shields, but not through the shields of another ship. The trick is matching the shield frequency. While Damon Bok's site-to-site transporter was probably rigged to the Ferengi ship rather than the Stargazer, you can bet he would've taken note of the shield frequency and matched his transporter frequency to it so he could beam in and out freely regardless of shield status.

[@kizunadragon9]

The Picard maneuver is to use boxing terms simply slipping a punch. the ship firing on you misses and you slip past their guard so to speak, You have position on the opponent but only for a moment until they readjust. If you don't bring knockout power after you slip the punch your just in the same melee you always were. It's useful but no way this god move they make it out to be. especially against a bigger, more resilient opponent (the Enterprise.)

[@Lorerunner]

That's one of the better analogies I've heard for the Picard Maneuver.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I like to think the Tug that went to get the Stargazer is designed to either physically grapple the thing to jump it into warp, or designed to extend its field around exterior objects without snapping them. Honestly, I’m introducing my friends to Star Trek (they finished a “Best of” list for TOS and TMP, yay!) and this is the second episode they watched. I thought it was a gentle way to show them who the characters are. As for the fake logs, I like to think Bok was using them as a red herring. If the huumahns think the only reason the Stargazer was given back for free was to frame Picard and the Federation for better leverage later on: they need look no further for sabotage. And if they are suspicious of Pikhard, then they won’t pay heed to his odd behavior. I like to think the Picard Maneuver worked because it was never done before and the maximum warp from Picard was slightly faster than the Ferengi sensors, and the computer couldn’t comprehend it and crashed at the moment Picard fired, which never game them the time to realize they’d been easily played.

[@donovanbradford8231]

The two things I have to say. The issue of the Ferengi ship screw up with the Picard maneuver is operational error. The tech manning the sensors or tactical station was simply not looking at his console and that's how it worked on him. The other is the issue with Wesley and his writing. From day one Wesley was written poorly. The character had this problem before this episode which I put on Roddenberry not knowing how to create a character very well. These videos have given evidence that Roddenberry could come up with ideas he just needed a lot of help molding them and fleshing them out.

[@dornravlin]

I think Rob Bowman was the best director of season one and two i think it was cool that he was around 27 at the time. Because I'm 26 and an aspiring filmmaker

[@LoreReloaded]

How did I miss this?

[@Bnio]

I just figured out what my problem with Wesley has been. I'm a few years younger than the character was when the show originally aired -- so, basically the "Hello, fellow kids" target demographic. I never hated Wesley, but he did bug me. It wasn't that he was a prodigy. It was that he was a prodigy who was also the privileged son of the chief medical officer and had the good graces of the senior staff as a result. He's the kid who gets conspicuously dropped off at Talented and Gifted classes and SAT prep courses in a Mercedes. Surely there were other curious, bright kids on the Enterprise with great potential, but where is their special access to Engieering and other cool toys? So when he had moments of trouble, I simply didn't sympathize.

[@petewatson-wailes10]

I used to get the Fact Files. Had the entire collection once upon a time...

[@1300l]

About the Picard maneuver, i like to believe that Picard enter in warp after the enemy shot at them. So he dodge the attack and counter it so fast that the enemy couldn't react. This would only work with extreme precise timing and if the enemy is not familiar with the maneuver... Something that the Enterprise D wouldn't have problem. Hell, the only problem of Picard to be a threat to the Enterprise D would be if they were worried with Picard reaction when he see that his maneuver wouldn't work.. If he would have a mental shock. The shield i always seen as if you can't beam from outside if the shild is up. But you can beam out of a ship with the shield up (the same way a torpedo wouldn't hit the ship own shield). So the Damon could beam out.. but no one could beam in or bring someone in (or someone in to out) by an outside transport. But than again, they could use the prefix to turn the Stargazer shield off.

[@tubeviewerX20]

They call it “Constellation Class” because the Enterprise 1701 is Constitution Class. Star Trek 101.

[@BradleytheDavis]

On what you said about Dutch angles... I don't think the purpose of utch angles is to specifically communicate to the viewer that "stuff's weird" in an informative way. I think they are typically used to convey the 'feeling' of the scene. Even if you can tell soemthing is wrong or weird, that doesn't necesarily mean you feel that wrongness or weirdness. So basically they are just anothernway to use cinematography for setting the mood.

[@WhiteScarsEmo]

“Disabling shields”, they could’ve tried that trick they used in “Insurrection” by firing tachyon bursts at the shields. Another something they could’ve tried in “Nemesis”. Wes’ role always annoyed me as a kid. You got the Federation flagship, the most advanced ship-class at the time, crewed by the best Starfleet officers they could find… and they are shown up by a kid. Oh, Merry Christmas, btw.

[@brianstraight9308]

Cluster headaches! God, Cluster Headaches. I get them too and they are debilitating. Beyond that. Fortunately, my doctor has me on a medication that prevents me from experiencing them so I haven't one for several years. But, there were times when I'd be between and if I go more than a few days without the med the headaches pretty much come right back. Make up for the lost time. One of those headaches ends me for a full day.

[@MollyGermek]

I think a better explanation those fact files could have made up if they wanted to retcon would simply be that sensors need to be calibrated to work at different speeds with the sensor resolution being much coarser at warp and becoming very fine tuned at impulse speeds, but with the unknown vulnerability to the Picard manoeuvre. I'd doubt it would contradict other episodes either. e: Though you can't really say it would be dangerous to have lightspeed sensors on a warp capable ship, because if you can accelerate beyond the speed of light you're already breaking physics and presumably the light being produced from the object would be travelling at that object's speed plus the speed of light again.

[@DrewLSsix]

I do have 3 points that I think would justify the crews anxiety about the coming attack. 1: they know that risk of that manuver, its being performed by a wreck of a ship manned by a guy in less than his right mind. Through simple error the ship could warp right into the Enterprise. We know these things like to explode due to impacts. 2: they are appalled at the idea that they may have to defend themselves by killing their captain. 3: they could take the "where's the danger" approach and be effectively passive, the E can probably tank everything the other ship has, let the thing drain itself then fetch Picard. But even that means they will take SOME damage, almost certainly someone will be heart or killed. Letting even that much happen would be a tragedy on multiple fronts, besides the loss of life how could Picard come back from that and take command of the same ship after he just killed some of the crew?

[@Ravix0fFourHorn]

ferengi sounds a lot like a greek word that means trustworthy in the context of business or other important agreements.

[@DJonScott]

Beaming through shields: At some point in the TNG era, it became relatively easy to beam things in/out through your own ship's shields, but other people couldn't beam through your shields and you couldn't beam through theirs.

[@nicholassterling8483]

18:35 A Christmas arachnid. Nick :-)

[@maflipse]

Completely forgot there would be one because Christmas feels like a Sunday!

[@pdtraill]

Looked at Star Trek encyclopedia (1st edition) - they wrote the episode thinking they'd get the Movie Enterprise model, then because the legal people for the movies are different from the TV ones, they couldn't get it.

[@videogenics86]

It's been a while since I went through these early episodes and I am having ideas of how to make the Ferengi work as true foes. Of course it would take HUGE rewrites, but surprisingly, THIS episode really wouldn't, at least as far as the Damon goes. I think it would be fun if the second and third save the day with the whole you owe us thing.

[@tonebonebgky2]

The first officer: no charge?! Lol

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

I do agree that the idea of having the Stargazer face the Enterprise didn't work as a threat, but I felt maybe the greater threat was losing Picard in the process. That phaser on the silver sphere part was too drawn out but I guess that's all they had for tension material at that point. For me the character of Wesley skates on the lines between being overpowered, being an otherwise interesting character whose arc entwines with Picards and Crushers, and being the cocky upstart kid who doesn't know his place. That very moment when he says 'Adults' was when he really went into the smart brat category. I have no problems with hypersmart kid characters but I have a disdain for hypersmart kid characters who know it and thumb it at everyone else. There's even a kid on the ads (2018) here in Oz that annoys me because she is that exact kind of character. Separate from Wil Wheaton the actor who I'm glad has learnt to make the best of his past fame, Wesley Crusher's character shouldn't have gone that direction because the best characters have flaws that they need to grow through, but that doesn't happen when it's not perceived as a flaw. That and the fact that kids should never get cocky and get away with it - for all their brightness, they need to grow and learn from the rest of those who know from experience that they don't know what they think they know. And how many times does the captain have to lose his mind before the crew lock him in an asylum in the lower decks? After this problem, the latest of several episodes, I as a crew member would seriously consider taking leave at the next space station or grow a healthy distrust of the captain's dependability. But I do think that Picard dealing with his past as a captain having to make hard calls in battle was very good material to focus on. Absolutely yes, you have to be resolute and make these calls at the time, but afterwards it's a recognition of the difficulty of such scenarios for a captain to reflect and agonise on the rightness or wrongness of their decisions because it cost lives. After some of the previous episodes and their questionable standard of quality, this one isn't too bad. So one of the Ferengi is played by the actor that becomes Quark in DS9 I think? I do have to remember this is the first ST in a long time and it looks like the whole team that worked on the series are still finding their feet a bit.

[@gingeroverseer9302]

SPIDER ALERT 😨😨😨😨 I do not blame you sir. Great rumination as always Archengeia thank you.

[@AndrewFremantle]

So they're tugging a federation starship, that we just established via the Picard Manuever has a functioning warp drive? *chuckle*

[@Ozzy_2014]

Merry Christmas!

[@andromedafan]

I have a near complete collection of the Star Trek Fact Files. I missing 3 I think issues. The collection is spread over about 16 or so ring binders.

[@jerryharris876]

37:43. They were probably writing, emphasizing that he is an immature kid who needs some tempering.

[@corssecurity]

How is Picard tugging on his tunic a danger to anyone. "The Picard maneuver".

[@DrownedInExile]

18:33 did you have a Londo Mollari moment there? Next time, use a sword!

[@danielyeshe]

Have you seen Stargate Atlantis? In that we have Rodney McKay. In a lot of ways he is like Wesley but some how his arrogance works for that character.

[@kristenstoumann8345]

about the shield part, now it has been quite some time since i last saw this ep, but is it possible that Stargazer´s shield is set up in "multiple" parts i mean in scene of the movies battles between, i cannot remember if it is either the Reman Scimitar battle, or the battle in the movie that was before the one with scimitar, the one with that special planet of forever youth,, but in one of this battles i seem to remember the shield is buckling in the area where the ships is being hit, but in the other end of the ship the shield seems fine, this being shown on one of there monitors, so what i am trying to say with the Stargazer shield up = no transport, that is unless you are Daimon Boc or Bog, the shield being up towards the Enterprise, but not toward the Ferengi ship? just a thought

[@47imagine]

Lorerunner.....will you be doing ruminations on the Indiana Jones movies?

[@amadynka]

Thank you for your ST TNG reviews, I love to listen to you. Please, continue your work. PS. I have subscribed.

[@kawaiikawaiianimegirl4144]

I miss my star trek magazines..

[@mr51406]

51:01 exactly my opinion. The leftover dreck at the bottom of the drawers has been cleared out, now we can start to emerge towards modern Trek… eventually. I also agree about the shameful way Wesley (and Wheaton) was treated. Call it character intimidation. It’s like some producers didn’t know what to do with this character imposed upon them by Roddenberry. An unwanted child who will know it. Almost like Harry Kim.

[@TheChatterbox1991]

See you in 2018, Captain! o7 And have a happy new year!

[@Sagefox]

I think that scene with Wesley was the writers poking fun at how adults ignore kids. That's how I interpreted it the first time I watched. But it was poorly done.

[@Threesixtyci]

Diana Troy = Starship Troopers... it's afraid!

[@zeromancer-x]

Wesley Crusher is a warp field prodigy, not an everything prodigy. That's why his scenes are an issue in this episode.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Wrath of the Ferengi !

[@robertmartinu8803]

Having Troy act more like Bester from B5 when her Psi doesn't work would be to much to ask I would guess? She shouldn't have trouble reading persons, compared to most others she has the benefit of a Rosetta Stone for emotions and behavior after all.

[@tonebonebgky2]

Here's the thing why would he give the ship back if he knew what Picard did, see I'm confused how the ferengi found out, the daimon seemed to know from the get go but he gave the ship back how confusing is that?

[@quasimodojdls]

Holy shit! Picard commanded the Stargazer for 22 years?! I did not know that. Is that canon, or does it come from non-canon sources? For that matter, what was Picard doing for the 8 and a half years between losing the Stargazer and being given command of the Enterprise, is that ever answered in canon? After the god-awful, abysmally-bad "The Last Outpost", I honestly did not expect the second Ferengi episode to be the best of the season thus far, but here we are. Of course, it's still not good - the Wesley scenes indeed are inexcusable, the Picard Maneuver is laughable (here is another problem with it - Data's entire "defense" against it is based on the idea that a ship in the Maneuver seems to disappear when the whole point of the Maneuver is that the ship momentarily appears to be in two places) and Troi is again misused. However, there are at least "some" positives to the episode. Bok is at least a somewhat interesting/engaging villain; he'll be better used in his second appearance in Season Seven, but he's still presented kind of effectively here. The scenes between Riker and the Ferengi first officer are, well, if not good then at least serviceable. And Ron Jones' score does help considerably. "The Battle" is probably one of the best episodes of Season One. But that might be damning with faint praise, if I'm honest. 4/10

[@resurrectedstarships]

HEy hey - if its a jumping spider they make great pets, clearly you are NOT a xenophile , how UNFEDERATION of you!!! Unless ofc its a brown recluse or some wicked species - jumping spiders will go get them though!

[@harpercole5321]

If there was no known defense to the Picard Maneuver, the Federation must have been pretty unbeatable in combat these past few years ... As you say, there were plenty of ways to beat the PM, which is only really effective as a surprise tactic anyway. I enjoyed Riker's talk with Kazago, Star Trek's first sympathetic Ferengi, but find this a weak outing on the whole, the first episode I'd describe as boring.

[@RavenheartIndustries]

Arch for a Ferengi in Discover....... no... Regardless of how much you may want to be a part of Star Trek, I would never wish your awesomeness be associated with STD.

[@10resslerj3]

I don't understand why everyone hates wesley crusher. He was always one of my favorite characters.

[@radioflyer68911]

Troi's powers was one of the dumbest ideas of the series. They should have stuck with the Deltan idea. She was the worst character in Encounter At Far Point.

[@maflipse]

Completely forgot there would be one because Christmas feels like a Sunday!