Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S3E04: Who Watches The Watchers

[@violinmerchant]

Even if the Enterprise could wipe the memories of the Mintakens, there's always a chance that clues might be left behind; clues suggesting a mystery which might be irresistible to them.

[@mb2000]

Tom Lewis They should make that into an episode! ;-)

[@tbk2010]

This is one of my favorite TNG episodes, despite its flaws. Reasons: 1 - I love the Mintaken people, I would easily watch a mini-series about the effects this episode has on them in the long run 2 - Picard is awesome in the last act 3 - Continuity - I remember that you can even see the mintakens gift in Picards ready room in the interactive technical manual CD-ROM It also informed my views on religion to a degree, though nowadays i would narrow it down to "superstition mixed with dogma".

[@nathanschultz5538]

"Religion is neutral"?!?! I've never been so offended! Kidding, of course but stop worrying about sharing your thoughts with us. I know the material but I watch (listen) to YOU and YOUR thoughts/feelings/insights. I've disagreed with you numerous times only to go back and look at scenes in my analysis mode...occasionally I even change my mind. Thank you.

[@EuroMIX2]

This is probably among my favourite episodes of TNG. I know some parts could be arguably a bit "anvilicious", but the interactions between Picard and Nuria are wonderful, and represent some of the best of TNG for me; showcasing the possibilities for a positive future, and I love how we get to see the wonders of the 24th century through Nuria's eyes.

[@devonanderson2902]

I always thought that the speech Picard gave was from his own perspective. I personally nevr got the impression that he was being used as a voicebox for a writer's agenda. I can see where you're coming from with Dr. Barron because when Riker asks "And are you saying that this belief will eventually become a religion?", Dr. Barron responds "It's inevitable. And without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos." I agree that could be considered preaching and I wish he had just stated that it was the worst-case scenario of what COULD happen. But I still believe Picard's statement was an aspect of his belief in rational thought being able to explain the universe, given enough time to understand it. He's not against religion, per se, but he doesn't really believe in it either. He even refuses to believe that the Q are gods despite all they can do. And this is a false religion around him so I believe his response is actually in character. Dr. Barron's statement may have been in character for him too, if you believe he is that much of an idiot to think having a belief automatically leads to holy wars and inquisitions. Also, Lore, you say they never explained why the memory erasure didn't work? I have a quote for you from Dr. Crusher: "I am familiar with Doctor Pulaski's technique. I can't guarantee it will be effective on Mintakan brain chemistry. Their lie-zone levels are much lower." Now, maybe you can argue that's technobabble but it IS an explanation and considering how closely they are related to Vulcans, it's not surprising that the technique would not work on such a complex brain.

[@lucasvincent2875]

You know what offended me? Wrapping a compound bow with strips of cloth. I groaned on first viewing..... And i love this episode

[@factualopinion6947]

Wow! What a fantastic episode. This is my favorite one by far!

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Gentleman who played Wicket in Star Wars: Warwick Davis. :-)

[@AlcomIsst]

Riker is about as alien as Palmer. Among all the Mintakans, he's the only one with a beard.

[@jerryharris876]

23:50. The guy that played Wickett also played Willow.

[@francoislacombe9071]

The one thing I really didn't like in this episode is the Mintakans being depicted as "quite peaceful and highly rational", and explicitely said to be this way because they are vulcanians, and everyone knows that Vulcans are rational and peaceful, right? Except they are not. Bronze age Vulcans were warlike and savage, even by human standards. Vulcans only recently became the peaceful rational people we know, and that because of one extraordinary individual, Surak. Another vulcanian people, the Romulans, fully retained that warlike mentality even as they moved out into the galaxy. The Mintakans should not have been depicted as they were, it is completely out of character.

[@LoreReloaded]

My problem with the video..and indeed Picard in the series in some instances.. is that Picard is written sometimes to be the avatar of the audience. And so the Avatar will sometimes make speeches or decisions that paint Picard in a bad light. I find Picard, in this episode, to be intolerant. I havent finished your review but to piggy back off the small portion I have.. Even if Picard is right..he is right in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.

[@PR--un4ub]

That was a *great* speech by Picard.

[@muadeeb]

Don't like the idea of the window pane. Unless you put yourself on a viewscreen of the bridge/ops.

[@timf7413]

Regarding the Mintokans being "on board" at the end, I think that works (along with a few other aspects of the episode) because they've been established as Vulcanoid aliens. Once Picard reaches them with reason and logic, they can probably be trusted to keep the secret because they understand the implications. (the point you made about Spock being nonplussed by time travel in another video.)

[@TiagoLageira]

Interesting insight about Ray Wise, he played a very similar role (from a completely different perspective) in the series twin peaks from around that time.

[@politicalnerdV]

Imagine if this episode was written after Star Trek V had come out, and the person Picard beamed onto the Enterprise asked "What would God want with a spaceship?"

[@redpillfreedom6692]

It aired 4 months after Star Trek 5 was released.

[@nehor90210]

I think there's at least one good reason Riker wants to be seen as he's getting away with Palmer, and why he and Troi don't want to be beamed away a second after they turn a corner. Because their disappearance would seem miraculous, and feed into the superstitions. I suppose they think it's worth some risk to make it seem they were just elusive in a more naturalistic, less magic-seeming way.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

This episode and I… have an interesting relationship. On one hand: I love it to bits. The way Picard explains his world to her by a way she can understand, the way a frantic man gains control or at least sway over others with the intangible, and even the way Picard stands his ground to let himself be wounded or possibly killed (even though it’s unlikely) to prevent them from worshiping him or hurting Troi. At the same time, that soap boxing is a bit much. Now, personally: I agree with Picard’s insistence he not allow the generation of a religion around misconstrued facts. I’m a religious person myself, but one thing that I believe and is part of that religion is informed participation. Not believing in things simply because a book or ancient people say it is so, but by contemplating it independently and determining that the path offered is good on merits you concur with. If Picard had masqueraded as a god, they wouldn’t have been able to make that informed choice. They would have incomplete and contradictory evidence, and no basis on which to judge their newly enforced morality system. They would have no choice, as those around them would enforce the new law out of fear. Few things are more dangerous than true believers. Yeah this is one village now, but give them a unifying certainty? They could well become zealots and spread their new religion to others out of generosity, to try and help them. And in an age of communication speeds that don’t exceed word of mouth: beliefs become quickly and easily twisted into the unrecognizable except for proper nouns.

[@joluoto]

I think this episode have loads of "Heroes must stupid"

[@adamwintz1072]

Great episode, Lore. One of the very good breakdowns of a not so great episode

[@andrewthorne3570]

"Why didn't they consider killing the village?" Because they are the good guys, not monsters

[@jeffreymiller9438]

That's exactly right. I don't know why forerunner was fixated on unleashing a plague. Turn Mintaka III into Manchuria under the Kwantung Army....

[@redpillfreedom6692]

Given what they eventually did in Homeward, they might as well have.

[@DrownedInExile]

I count this as one of my favourite episodes, though it is a bit coincidence-heavy. I'd like to imagine after the Enterprise left, the villagers became keenly interested in astronomy, mapping the stars by whatever means they had. Maybe they had a small hand in advancing their people's overall scientific knowledge.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

I feel, that whilst you do deeply love StarTrek, at times it is with a possessive and abusive love, not letting it the freedom of being that which it is... I feel, whilst I love your show for the appreciation it gives to the characters and actors, that you often misread it, and the nature of the world it describes. which will mean that sometimes you do "hate" something that is in the essence of StarTrek, whilst, very accepting of it's adulterations in particular directions. that does not make your love of StarTrek less (or more) than of many other deep fans... just very different.

[@rmsgrey]

The thing with psychic powers in science fiction is nowadays mostly tradition - science fiction as a genre rather than as an idea. In a genre, ideas in one work get adopted and adapted by other, later, otherwise unrelated works, even if that would otherwise no longer be covered by the original ideas of the genre. Back in the first half of the twentieth century, ESP and other psychic phenomena were the result of sober scientific study, with some high profile positive results (subsequently discredited) making them not only legitimate science fiction, but legitimate science too. By the 80s and 90s, when I was starting to take an interest in things (and TNG was being produced), psychic powers were long-since debunked but had acquired their status as an acceptable genre trope in science fiction. And the idea that such things might be scientifically possible (if not actually present in humans) has endured too. And, of course, there have been technological forms of telepathy invented too - electronics implanted in the skull with a low-power radio transceiver for example...

[@landostark]

it totally discounted the validity of religion, no matter anyone personal beliefs, it is star trek to respect others customs

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

I suppose it's because you've embarked on looking at things with deep analysis mode that it can sometimes come across that you don't like what you're analysing, which is simply not true. There are some things that you talk about that go a bit further in detail than I would, but that's what you set out to do, and that's not a problem for me. As a person of faith, I didn't find this episode particularly jarring. Why that is, I don't know. Perhaps it's because it fell along some pretty standard trope territory and I assumed along those lines too. It all depends on how Starfleet regards the people below, and I felt that at every point they had a certain respect for their beliefs and were keen not to shatter them. I think the Prime Directive does have holes in it. At times it seems to be such an absolute, and yet at other times they violate it quite casually, or, once it is violated, all bets are off. And at what point does a person offer help without violating the PD? Does an offer of help depend on the advanced-ness of a race, that if they are primitive they are left to their own devices, but if they are the same or above, then they can? Does it all hinge on warp capability as a line? It takes someone like Patrick Stewart to pull of some of this stuff, when it seems a bit unconvincing otherwise. The final act is good in that Picard takes a position of honesty and humility - they are a more advanced race technologically, but they too cannot overcome death. Had they taken the high position and did anything that assumes the people a lesser people, then they would have lost me. No-one likes proud people, even if they feel justified in being proud, because I think deep down we all know we are limited and are at our best when we are aware of that. I think TNG continues an underlying paradigm that is anti-religion, and when they plant lines to say it it rankles, but only because it's preaching, less so the content. I don't have a problem with the view - but I do hate being preached at, regardless of the content. Thankfully, the main bulk of the time they focus on plot and character. I felt this story was solid and satisfying enough on those fronts.

[@FlukasMcDoogle]

I get complaining about something you like. It makes complete sense to me.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

there was another way to totally stem this knowledge... instead of killing the village, why not beam them ALL up to the ship and leave them on the ship? it cannot be more than a few hundred people, something the Galaxy -class can find space for.

[@chrislane481]

Yes, I remember this episode as having one of the best scenes in TNG with Picard's speech. An argument could also be made...though very long and not really for this kind of episode, about the consequences of bringing people back from the dead....can you imagine if that was a reality?

[@jackbates7467]

See I just imagined Picard going down," Yes I am the Picard you guys are doing great! Carry On".

[@techno9991]

Maybe an LCARS style screen behind you?

[@sicily7220]

Someone's magic is someone' s technology is someone's supernatural. All with limitations. I am watching this video, I know what will Lorerunner will say about Enterprsie. So from that perspective I know more about the future of the Star Trek then Lorerunner does at his point of time I am watching this video. Q abilities: we really do not know how Q uses his power, maybe it is a machine. If we do not understand it, we call supernatural. Q appearing anywhere at anytime, maybe just transporter, Q stopping an asteroid from hitting a planet is just tracker beam and Q pushes the enterprise to met the Borg for the first time is just propulsion.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Your end card comment is kinda funny, given that what actually happened was that we sacrificed to Orci and Kurzman and got The Picard back. From what I understand the whole series is about tying everything that happened in TNG into the continuity of the Kelvin timeline, which is pretty close to Nemesis-izing the franchise. Has your dream become a nightmare, @Lorerunner? XD

[@Eric_Hutton.1980]

Why not just fire a photon torpedo or two at the village? It isn't like they aren't capable of obliterating the village from orbit as Data pointed out in another episode.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Just shows how the Sisko is more openminded about religion than good old Jean- Luc is .

[@Yura-Sensei]

Please don't use that frame in ruminations. Quite frankly it looks pretty bad, low resoltion, doesn't really fit the bakcground, creates clutter and so on. I don't think anyone is tirggered by seeing your arm dissapear at some point

[@rmsgrey]

I like the idea of having a frame, but not that particular one.

[@mr51406]

Getting away somewhere private to beam out: don’t these people have bathrooms? “Picard” only knows you’re one of the persons who obviously loves ST most! So for the accusers, by their logic, that means they enjoyed “Shades o’Gray”? Your analysis of beliefs and religions is excellent.

[@mr51406]

Addendum 2022, just watched again. 🔹Still a good episode. But it’s “Planet of Hats” to the extreme. One single Mintakan village of 200 maybe? What about all the other thousands of villages on different continents? 🔸Anyway I recognize the rock formation. There is a Gorn village on the other side. 😉

[@peterkottke2570]

Crusher: But no Mentakens have one. If you want to fit in, it is necessary. Troi: It could be vital to the success of our mission. Riker: I does not matter. You are not shaving my beard! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - After Star Trek visits so many worlds where the inhabitants are basically human. ( in some cases directly related and transplanted by an ancient race like the preservers [ or perhaps these overseers ] ) I like they would find one where they are basically vulcan instead. It's world building. While this episode does have a lot of issues. Most of them get handled: Setting up a religion is mind boggling dumb. But the idea is quickly swatted aside as the stupid notion it is. Yes, they latch onto the notion of gods really quickly with scant evidence. Though only Lyko ( I think that's his name ) seems to be really in on it while the others seem just confused. And Lyko's actions are motivated by grief no belief.

[@mb2000]

You said in your Season 1 reviews that Starfleet medical tech/knowledge was laughably crap. Well I present to you Dr. Crusher in this episode of Season 3; 1) she doesn’t save the female scientist and she dies, 2) she fails to wipe Liko’s memory despite saying she knows how to, and 3) whatever she did to Picard’s arm meant he needed a sling... in an era when medical tech can heal virtually anything in seconds with no visible scars or lasting damage or after effects? Why was Crusher head of Starfleet Medical again? At least it explains why she was sent back to the Enterprise!!

[@1987jock]

Ususally when I click on one of your videos it takes me a while to figure out which episode it is. What stands out is Picards disappointment after realising he hasn't managed to get through to the native woman.

[@harpercole5321]

The idea of killing off the village might have come up on DS9, but it's just not the TNG way. Even Picard's "Why didn't you let him die?" was pushing it. I enjoyed the scenes of Picard convincing the Mintakan leader. Excellent writing and acting. The rest of the episode was fun but silly. It's hard to believe that a religion could even catch on based on something that happened in a single village. Similarly, the knowledge of the existence of aliens would surely pass into legend in a generation or two.

[@nostalgiatrip1]

Have to say been waiting for this one for a long time.

[@williamozier918]

All in all great episode. Re-watching these Loreuns I now see something about this episode in a slightly new context which makes me like even its flaws. One, seeing these Loreruns in order we can now see how much of the crew boobing around in space goes back to what Q was trying to tell them about themselves in Encounter at Farpoint. They're not ready. They're overly smug and they'r still savage. So episodes like this show us ways in which the Federation really is unprepared and unable to handle what's out there. Second, this episode also strengthens my building Will Riker theory. Will Riker, one of the best? Really? Binge watching his performance, all I can say is; at least he didn't let his penis screw this mission up. Of course this is the third time I think the captain has been severely wounded on one of Riker's away teams.

[@ZippyMrMew]

43:10 - talking about Ray Wise’s character. Sounds lot like another character he played… cough cough TWIN PEAKS cough cough x’D pretty much everything you described sums up his character in that as well. Just thought that was funny

[@caloss2]

Warwick Davis, played wicket in Willow, just to save other people nipping off the video to google it.

[@LandBark]

As with Pen Pals, I wish captain would give the order, famous captain Kirk's order: ~Let them die (although here it would be let him die) Sadly no writer would ever do that, prime directive is a dilemma that episode needs to solve and you don't adhere to it. Otherwise our heroes would be monsters. ------------------ Your line of argument about different looking people, gigantism and dwarfism in the eyes of superstitious people were the signs of gods. Those people were touched by god. Black people live too close to the sun and were burned and I can be mistaken but book of mormons says that some group of people was cut from the presence of the lord and received "skin of blackness" as a punishment. Writters of this episode simply didn't say/write "touched by god" (also, I think it is impossible to put ourself in the mindset of bronze age person) Christiany as we know it is a amalgamation of few religions (like zoroastrianism) so maybe Picardism would become one of those small fry that would later become an inspiration for some bigger thing. Lastly about supernatural, I doubt that with their level of technology the telepathy could be considered supernatural. For us it is supernatural but they have entire planet and races that has this ability. They do have things like autopsy, microscope to put things there and do science. Actual evidence and history that reading minds and mind melds exist. We consider this supernatural because its magic and we saw only con-mans doing it but for them its natural. Supernatural means beyond natural, I doubt in the world of Star Trek anything can be supernatural. Of course it comes from the mindset of a guy who believes everything is natural and ghost could be put under a microscope. Who Watches The Watchers was a okay episode. Left with great implications.

[@PredatorianStyl]

Nothing has ever done more harm to people than religion

[@jimschuler8830]

Is that the speech where Picard flat out calls atheism an achievement? I remember rewatching this episode when I was older and I was into it, then that line came out and literally knocked me off my chair.

[@risingofthethorn1197]

personally when someone says atheism is an achievement I'm like.... post-modernism: allow me to introduce myself.

[@Fatfit2]

I just watched this episode a few weeks ago and immediately went to look for the rumination, only to find that it wasn't released yet. Lol. I was wondering if it would be a mini lamentation...

[@EnvisionerWill]

I have a distinct feeling that when I rewatch this episode, I'm going to intensely disagree with your take on almost all of this.

[@athrunzala6919]

I prefer the usual, not the window outline on the display. I liked this one the last time I watched it more then when I was a kid, I liked the Duck Blind set and the elaborate mountains below. Although if your duck blind is in the middle of those mountains that hard to get through, how are they watching the village? Sensors? Long range cameras from only one vantage point and audio lasers to listen? There's some real invasion of privacy stuff to look at here for doing this to a sentient race. Maybe if you were a time traveler observing your ancestors you could argue some sort of tacit consent for understanding your personal development throughout history or something, but this is a different species despite the same argument being used at the end when they explain why they do it. This Vulcan off-shoot doesn't truly help the Humans, Vulcans or Bolians understand themselves better, do they? I like how Picards says #&@! it, beam her up and I'll talk to her (very Captain Kirk of him). He walks the woman through it brilliantly and she still doesn't get it. It's amusing and sad. This was very Captain Picard at this point, his eloquence and them letting himself get shot. It was only luck that they missed his heart; or maybe it was the Gods, or maybe it was the same Gods from "Justice" in season 1 ha ha ha. When she showed them Picards red blood, I liked their subtle response because they made a good display of their green blood earlier, so even I could tell as a kid that was more poignant than usual.

[@Kaefer1973]

Since I neither mind being preached to (not that I thought it to be the case here, to me it felt like somebody else was being preached to), nor have particularly strong feelings about religion, I never had any such problems. I really like this episode and in fact consider it one of my favourites. That doesn't change the fact though that it's still a bit clunky compared to the standards of later seasons. Anyway I wouldn't resent a stranger that could help but doesn't. I could resent Bill Gates for not spending all his money to get medicine to the impoverished, and that would not even be nearly as stupid as expecting aliens, even aliens proven to exist, to spend all their time fixing other people's problems.

[@PR--un4ub]

Troi is an empath, not a telepath.

[@1300l]

Here is the deal. After what they seen, this supernatural (for they're perspective) the belief would become a religion. And religion lead to holly war, intolerance, etc.. Judging by human history. So the professor asked to create a religion, that they would rig, to be tolerant. So for me, even though i don't agree with the professor, i get what he mean. Also, i do think that a big religion can happen starting on a small village. Also, for a bronze age i do think that this can be enough proof to see what they want to believe.

[@madman123456]

Once religion is established a great many things are asked. Religion's job is basically to explain the unexplainable. A lot of stories to be had where people found remains of civilizations long past and where absolutely astonished. Christianity figured such artifacts to be of the devil oftentimes, other religions told of a time where the gods walked the earth. This is something we can find in our stories to this day. Every medieval fantasy has protagonists search for some ancient knowledge, old wisdom or maybe just some super awesome sword forged using ancient secrets that have been lost to time. This idea that we aren't the first persists to this day and on the level of technological advancements you could still have ancient secrets just waiting to be found. When the romans first sent their legion out you could've transported it forward in time a thousand years and they'd mop the floor with the first knights. Medieval peasants could find some roman dinari and believe they hold artifacts of great power. These are coins to be sure but so finely crafted that they put everything the royal mint puts out to shame. And it has grime on it as if it had been in the ground for a thousand years. Like in a great many videogames we do have stories about people finding ancient stuff and using it; mostly swords. Some of these ancient weapons of great power where very powerful indeed, able to outright cut through other swords forged by the best blacksmiths of the day. Those things must be magical. Any other explanation would be rather disturbing. A People whose warriors had armor and weaponry that is so much better then our own by such degree we can't even fully fathom it just vanishing? Possibly made extinct? By what impossible measure where they driven from us? "Magic" or "Gods" sounds much less disturbing then what actually happened. Well, to them...

[@reyjusuf]

sometimes when people preach something i actually agree with, i pretend to disagree with him just to piss him off

[@gingeroverseer9302]

Contrarian lol

[@mapleicecream4819]

You're doing a public service.

[@clearmountain28]

Maybe I am wrong here but I didn't see this as a commentary on faith in general but false faith. Modern religions, we can't know if they are true or not, but Picard knows he isn't god, we know he isn't god, so the Mintakens worshiping him would be leaving them at the mercy of superstition and ignorance (in this case referring to a lack of knowledge about who or what Picard actually is). And, in regards to all the beliefs happening based on little proof, a lot of religions are based on little proof. And ancient religions were definitely based on little proof. Still, maybe I am watching this with nostalgia goggles on.

[@kitbashbob6426]

You don't like mentioning God unless you're yelling "God Damn It!".

[@Reggie2000]

I know, right. That's super crazy. Like at this point, I think many would have preferred if you had just talked about religion and saved the blasphemy for off camera. If you wouldn't saying the N Word, then what makes you think this is acceptable. Why not just call a women a cunt, or a gay dude a fag if your not concerned with being super offensive to half the worlds population.

[@namelessbaron1289]

Hey I'm in this episode! :D

[@TheRetrostorian]

I love star trek fans that use a fictional work to inform their opinion on atheism in the real world. Lol. Otherwise I love these kind of episodes.

[@corssecurity]

Yes the presented dilemma could have been solved inside of ten minutes and the episode would be over. So either you can write a much better script or add filler.

[@47imagine]

Dude, just chill

[@adamr3602]

I can't believe this is a season 3 episode. It feels like a season 1 episode. Even with the Pulaski mention, I could have believed this was BEFORE they showed the actual Dr Pulaski.

[@quasimodojdls]

I'll say this.... as a theist myself, this episode really pisses me off. However, other than to say TNG's depiction of religion often infuriates me, I'll leave it at that. I once tried to express my theistic disapproval over on Jammer's Reviews and all that managed to do was to kick a massive hornet's nest. I'll pass on it this time. If anyone is crazy enough to brave that minefield I'll say this.... look on Jammer's review of this episode, I posted my thoughts on May 24, 2015. Almost nothing works in this episode. The acting from the woman playing Nuria is particularly bad. Even Patrick's Stewart acting is questionable in "that scene". Seriously, his overly dramatic bellowing is about as bad a moment as he ever gave us throughout his run as Picard. The only thing I can say in the episode's defense is that the music is indeed quite nice. Thank God for Ron Jones. 1/10

[@JanetDax]

To me this episode is about superstition not religion.

[@WujekFu]

Actually all great religions were founded by a single person like Jesus, Buddha or Mohamed.

[@malvane8061]

2 of those 3 did not intend to find any religion. Jesus and Gautama were intent on reforming Judaism and Asceticism.

[@PR--un4ub]

The way you kept going on with your "Just kill them." "solution" was a bit off-putting.

[@resurrectedstarships]

Oh hell!! NOT talk about religion....OH HELL WHAT!!! OH HELL!!! We really wanna know what you think about religion!! LOL Unsubbed....KIDDING :D

[@resurrectedstarships]

Okay - the reality is - humanity is evolving beyond religion. This episode illustrates how in the past when we do not have the scientific method we used what we could to fill in the gaps; mythology and religion. A mind without adequate information takes whatever is available, often what other people tell you to beleive...because it takes time and energy to get the information, often what you will NEVER be able to know. Religion is a system of faith-based beliefs, and institutions of an obsolete society - we simply don't need it anymore. Did we ever need it I wonder?

[@consgay3801]

>Did we ever need it I wonder? If you're familiar with any of the work done by the early Church after the fall of Rome, then the answer has to be yes.

[@resurrectedstarships]

Key phrase there being fall of Rome, a process that wasn't sudden or fast...Rome abandoned its intellectually empowered, and very secular, form of govt in favor of demagoguery...a kind of religious state - and I don't mean christian, but the later era emperors were a kind of messiah, Christianity comes later and fits like a glove with the papal state, and it wasn't until about the renaissance until the idea of a King 'anointed by god (or the pope)' began to be challenged and replaced by some constitutionalism. Secular governments came back for the first time in about 2000 years. Life got better.

[@TheRetrostorian]

Fact. Intellectuals dont build schools and hospitals in Africa. They sit around and run statistics. Which is great, sure, but everything has its place. To say "society is evolving past religion" is such a dimwitted and smug remark you should pour a cup of cold water on your head. This is a TV show. It isnt life, reality, this dimension, or any mixture of the three. You are oversimplifying and frankly so full of bias it spills over in your comment. Have a nice day.

[@Spawnfreak]

Lore there's a cold hard truth you need to accept. Star Trek is pro atheism. It has been from the word go. Sooner you accept this, the happier you'll be.