Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S3E12: The High Ground

[@AposineYT]

It's over, Anakin.

[@dylanlewis5113]

You underestimate my power!

[@dracokinerek]

I have the high ground

[@DylanMadd]

Picard to Finn: “You have made a grave miscalculation.” Yup.

[@DrownedInExile]

Finn wanted a Federation response. Well he got it. Just wasn't the response he was prepared for.

[@lingbon3543]

The strategic bombings of Tokyo and Dresden are controversial but they undoubtedly hurt the axis war effort. We won, so they're considered military action. I think the issue is greyer than you think.

[@adamwintz1072]

+1

[@tubeviewerX20]

This is one of the best episodes of all TNG in my opinion. It deals with a continuing real-life issue and leaves us with the message that there is not an easy answer, in certain cases anyway. The action sequences are not too shabby, either. If I were one of ‘The High Ground” creators, I would be quite proud to have it on my resume!

[@Gianne0923]

Season 3 of TNG is hard to beat. It’s episodes like this that never get old. I appreciate your insight and analytical mind on the episode. You are the most detailed trek reviewer on KZbin I watch.

[@spaveevo]

Nice comment when you said you wanted to rewatch Voyager. I couldn't sleep and earlier this morning i watched your Voyager Rumination on Twisted which made me rewatch that episode. Then i came here which will make me rewatch this episode since its been awhile.

[@ericmcconnaughey2782]

The guy playing Finn pops up every now and then in various movies & tv.

[@quazz79]

This episode is a stark reminder that we'll never get that Picard/Dr.Crusher payoff

[@najex1]

I think Finn was just a man waiting to die. I don't think he personally ever expected to 'win', and I see him being willing to use the 'transporter' that he knows is killing him as proof. I think Finn just wants to fight for his cause until he falls over dead, or failing that, at least hurt his enemies. In his mind, his own death at the end was a garentee. That's my read on him.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I have to thank you whenever I see a video where you discuss a hard topic. You sir, have serious courage, and I applaud your neutral and unbiased discussion and rumination of this. Terrorism is a hard topic even in academic conversations, with definitions and justifications to hammer out before you can even start. You have your conviction, but you can see both sides. If only such clear eyes and minds as yours were the ones which led this species. I do have to wonder though, would the Federation even notice if Fynn had destroyed the Enterprise. They might have left them alone Rhineland style, or surrendered.

[@thexalon]

The lines between warfare, terrorism, and criminality are not always clear-cut. For instance, after a victory in war, what happens next is an occupation by the victors. Occupations often lead to resistance movements, which the victors declare to be terrorists even if they're only targeting the military. Meanwhile, lots of criminal organizations see themselves as freedom fighters of some kind. Even in very recent history, we've had terrorist groups suddenly became the government of a substantial amount of territory and they switched from being terrorists to an army at war. As for Finn's motivations for fighting the fight he's fighting, I'm not all that convinced he knows what they are himself. He's young enough that this group's founding was before his birth, so it's entirely possible that he got involved because his parents or other older relatives were involved, and after you've been fighting a war for long enough it's all you know how to do. He talks about the abstract notion of "Freedom", but no practical issues like what this area of the planet wanted to do differently from the rest of the planet.

[@Scottlp2]

About the maqui: SISKO: On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarised zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints, just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive whether it meets with Federation approval or not.

[@Denise-jh3nv]

I grew up in the UK during the troubles and it was hell here and in Ireland. It was shown at 2am in the morning in the UK after yes being banned for years.

[@wratched]

It's interesting that Ronald D Moore hates this episode, when he would take the ambiguity and run with it in DS9 and then fly with it in the Battlestar Galactica reboot.

[@keitht24]

Well his views mah have changed over time.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

I suppose he liked the topic, but just didn't like the execution of the episode. He probably felt it could have been great and the result might have seemed mediocre or half-hearted in contrast. Lore might have a point that the episode is arguably better for the fact that it doesn't preach "this is the correct opinion" by the end and leaves things somewhat open.

[@zephyr8072]

It probably didn’t have enough fakey spiritual or luddite crap for hum.

[@dylanlewis5113]

The Rebel Alliance were not terrorists. They only went after military targets. The Empire blew up entire planets.

[@athrunzala6919]

I remember liking this as a kid, I liked the actors portrayal and his artistic skill. I noticed the waiter was sympathizer even as a child, I thought it was hard to miss they made it quite obviously. I liked how they figured out that an inverter would require a Doctor, except Wes's remembering what his teacher last year seems contrived. "It's the exact same frequency" or something, yeah right they covered anything like an inverter in school, those kids would be struggling with the physics of fussion to power the impulse engine. I think the the school bus was an accident, I'm sure we've all seen enough movies where "the school bus full of nuns" shows up at the last moment to screw up hitting the proper target.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

When discussing the morality of killing civilians, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki occupy a strange grey area, because they helped facilitate the unconditional surrender of Japan without the need of going through with Operation Downfall, an Operation that was worried would cause the end of the Japanese race given the causality estimates.

[@permeus2nd]

So I wonder just how meny people see this ep name and think Star Wars. Ah that explains why I haven’t seen this ep been from the UK.

[@zurgtheemperor975]

I am from the UK. I saw it on Pick TV years ago, including Data's line about Ireland.

[@frankharzer6224]

In my opinion no person is pure good or evil, we have both in us. All of us can be good people, who strive to better humanity, but at the same time, if pushed far enough we all could do horrible things and i think if put into the right situation, with the stakes high enough and no other option left, I guess most, if not all people would be ready to commit what are terrorist attacks by your definition lore.

[@LoreReloaded]

I also think Kira Nerys would disagree with your thoughts on civillian targets..she called them collaborators..

[@paulscott2037]

Kira still regrets what she had to do in the occupation though. She even refers to her own actions as terrorism on occasion.

[@tubeviewerX20]

Bajoran civilians helping the Cardassian occupation/atrocities to continue isn’t the same as an innocent civilian “just having a sandwich” as Lorerunner put it.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Kira's anger and resentment became more nuansed as time went on. And even in season one, she said to Maritza "look, I regret a lot of what I did". Even though Maritza kept provoking her with "How convenient for you !", I actually believe the sincerity of her statement. And I think even Maritza did, underneath the role he decided to play to achieve his goal (symbolically punish the Cardassian regime).

[@Joe_Generico]

Im sure others have annunciated it more succinctly, but: collaborators are not civilians. They have chosen a side, perhaps forcibly, but still...by every convention of war they are legitimate targets.

[@timriggins70]

Would even Kira or Shakaar blow up a shuttle with Cardassian children.

[@dracokinerek]

"It's over Anakin! I have the high ground!"

[@harpercole5321]

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on DS9's the "The Darkness and the Light" when you get there. Kira feels justified in having killed civilians there. I'm English, so didn't see this one for a long time, perhaps not until I bought the DVDs. I don't know why they didn't just cut Data's line about the Irish out, but maybe the whole topic of terrorism was considered too much. I think the episode handled it pretty fairly, though they were obviously limited by only having 45 minutes to do it in. Crusher's interrupted line to Picard is a gag repeated in "Remember Me", probably deliberately.

[@LostMercenary99]

One of best friends grew up in Northen Ireland during the hieght of the IRA bombings. He described to me all sorts of nightmares as to what it was like to grow up during this time. One thing in particular that stood out in his memory was the image of armed soldiers deployed along his walking route to school. He was 6 or 7 at this point. Later on I showed him this episode of TNG, which naturally he never saw growing up, and he was left speechless at how head on it tackled the issue and how it really hit home at just what kind of a shit show these situations can be. He had no comment on Data's line about acceptable terrorism. He was just stunned that this was even made.

[@shootingreal5945]

I loved this episode and I loved the conversation between Finn and crusher...earth and the federation get to look down on other races for there actions when there own history is filled with it and now they can look down from the mountain top and say don't do that. Is the government going to give you want you want by asking nicely. If that was the case they would be free. I know this is a hot button topic but you have to be in there shoes to truly understand oppression. (DS9 is a great example of being nice isn't going to free you and it always takes a dark action to get there attention bc before that they are often placating the other side with sweet talk with no Intention of negotiating on good Faith.) Not saying killing innocent ppl is correct but neither is oppression. In the end it does the job to keep you thinking.

[@saphojuiced6243]

There's only two things terrorism is effective for: drawing the attention of third parties and making the enemy lose public support for the conflict. This requires that the enemy's public or a neutral public are sufficiently influential with and through their government to affect the conflict and desire the conflict to end for the terror to end. Another thing about terrorism is it requires a modicum of liberty. Or rather, insurgency does, terrorist or otherwise. It needs wiggle room to recruit, organize, arm, coordinate, execute. Ever thought about how the USSR never saw any significant insurgencies?

[@mr51406]

Totally agree with your opinions and don’t be shy to express them. The best action against oppression is non-violence. It’s painful but the aftermath is better. See Dr Crusher’s line about Finn if he won. Watched this on St. Patrick’s Day 2023. Reunification of Ireland next year? 🇮🇪☘️

[@Joe_Generico]

Came over from Lore Reloadeds recommendation. Great commentary. Ive subscribed. PS: i always wondered what happened to Gibson Price... :p

[@roystonsbailey]

Great episode and great performance by McFadden.

[@TheRealityJack]

I remember liking this episode. It wasn't absolutely amazing, but still above average. I did watch it, but I only watched Star Trek on my DVDs

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Coming back after a year on a proper run through the series with your ruminations. I think I’m finally mentally solidified enough to answer the question Data posits. “Terrorism in service of liberation” is much like the phrase “Romulans Defector.” It’s a contradiction in terms. If you’re trying to overthrow a corrupt government or whatever else you’re using Terrorism for in a sense you feel you can justify it, then you are inherently fighting *for* your people. If your targets are your own people, anyone and any person with a brain will tell you that’s bad strategy. Let’s assume they aren’t “your” people then. Well, they could have been. They could have become allies, or remained neutral. If you start blowing them up though: they’ll immediately turn against you as opponents. Not only from a moral perspective is the destruction of civilian targets unacceptable, it’s a strategic misstep. I don’t personally agree with the line from Duet: “The most effective method of terrorism: is random violence!” Now, that isn’t to say that strategic guerrilla warfare is wrong. Attacking military installations and personnel with covert methods is absolutely in the rule book. The correct target is the right target more often that not. Regarding Finn’s motivation: I think he was a romantic. I think he wanted to be in history books, and was willing to do anything to get into them. He was an artist, a purveyor of history, and he pushed actively fanatical actions that got attention but were mostly worthless. I think he wanted to be remembered in the light of a “tragic hero on the wrong side” and was absolute in his will to get that record.

[@rwoliver2]

I'm a long time viewer and Patreon supporter. I enjoy your analysis. Please don't be afraid to talk about controversial subjects. By doing so you aren't serving you or your viewers. Opinionated, controversial analysis is real analysis.

[@tbk2010]

Finn, to me, seems like a creature of habit, completely dead inside. Someone who maybe once was interested in freedom, or in justice, or at least in revenge. Over time he became more and more ruthless but also less and less interested in the original goal or even in getting any kind of satisfaction from his attacks. He just does what he does because what else is he supposed to do? But that's just me coming up with a backstory that is more interesting than what the episode provides. I find it pretty boring tbh.

[@DrownedInExile]

If Finn and his band of mad-dogs got the freedom they claim to crave, they wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with it.

[@user-hi4sm3ig5j]

I liked this episode but found the ending really odd how they escaped without really exploring the idea of the Federation being brought into the conflict further than the few lines from Fin earlier. I don't know, a bit of resolution felt like it was missing.

[@enlightedjedi]

Dear Lorerunner sir! You say often that you dislike tackling certain topics, and I think you are uncomfortable with them, but you actually like (maybe in a twisted way) discussing them. The uncomfortable part is actually what makes them interesting. I'm asking you how on Earth would you want topics like terrorism, unemployment, or even religion to be easy. A shallow treatment of them would not in be any way interesting. They are interesting because they are controversial. You can make only so much episodes about baseball games or day dreaming. I think you are sensibly above average and you could improve by accepting that, pardon me, sometimes shit needs to be eaten because it's the only way into that specific area. I honestly hope I did not come forward as too preachie because I'm afraid I am.

[@falionna3587]

Funny that this is the episode that became lorerun. I've had long debates over Mistweaver Nian over in world of warcraft if she counts as civilian or not. As she is a healer.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

to me, Terrorism is like torture, almost never excusable on any level... though sometimes you can understand why someone resorts to it.... btw: by your definition, would a general who uses civilian fear of his army (by blowing up normal people) to politically force the defeat of his enemy be a terrorist?

[@scottkrametbauer90]

I'd like to think that even if the federation had not been able to solve the terrorist issue on the planet, they would have simply quarantined the planet and left. Enjoy your victory when you're now cut off from the rest of the galaxy for the next several decades.

[@MFMegaZeroX7]

That was basically my thoughts on the episode. I thought it was interesting to hear some of the outrage people had believing the episode to be condoning terrorism, when the episode itself was rather neutral. I think that says something about people's deeply rooted opinions about terrorism.

[@mitcharcher7528]

You’re not god; you absolutely need a starship. ;)

[@dwaynemclaughlin6052]

I feel the Federation would crush this cell, but not this terrorist movement. I think this would only be the beginning of the conflict for the Federation.

[@corssecurity]

God, Q, Kevin?

[@keitht24]

His son was killed in detention. The Federation traded with this government. If you trade with a government who commits war crimes, you're complicit in those war crimes.

[@saphojuiced6243]

By that logic, just about every real world country is due terrorism. The most relevant cause being trade relations with China.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

I don't even think guerilla fighters who don't have enough equipment are forced to resort to terrorism. Diversionary tactics, stealth, sabotages, sure. But terrorism on civilians ? No. Aside from individuals who don't know any better and just want revenge, committing it on civilians, reasonable guerilla forces that don't want to be dismissed later do not stoop to terrorism. Which makes the "oh, well, killing/terrorising civilians was just a desperate measure by us" type of argument completely hollow. It's not a sound argument from a military standpoint, at all, and achieves nothing. As you say, Lore, there is no good, logical reason to commit acts of terrorism, especially acts of terrorism on civilians.

[@ithemexican2423]

Yeah this was an episode that I wouldn’t watch for the longest time because I couldn’t get past how stupid the opening is with crusher. I had the exact same thoughts to about how she could have just beamed them to the shape or that Picard or word should have just beamed her anyway.

[@chiefwiggi]

Hey #LoreMaster told to Check Out ur Chanel and He was right!! What a nice Work man, cheers

[@michaelmaier8133]

I just opened "episodenguide" to check which episode it was. And to answer ur question, from the top of my head: I didn't like it much. It was a very serious, topic, like "all the doctor" episodes. But a very generic one. And no mentionable B-plot for some distraction, to lighten things up. I give it a D-rating ( note 4 ). And now i'll watch this rumination.

[@andrewledbetter4112]

Well since you don't get it I'll explain it. The point you seem to be missing is that General's don't only bomb supply lines and enemy hq. They also routinely hit hospitals, schools, and yes, even cafes. Our country has done it historically and even currently. Not to mention General's of other countries that have far less problems killing civilians. I love Star Trek, but I'm a history professor by trade. I find your opening comments extremely naive.

[@awkie]

12:16 this wasn't about forcing the federation into the situation. as the episode makes clear, the federation is already a part of the situation, and has already chosen its side. the side of the oppressor. i also think it's really important to take into account that this wasn't a terrorist movement, it was a terrorist cell with the same stated goals (whether genuine or not) as a much larger movement that made themselves heard through strikes and other mass action. we have a situation where a government doesn't want to allow freedom and autonomy for a group, misrepresents and equates a movement with the actions of a tiny minority and uses that to treat the entire group like inherent criminals, all with the economic support of a much larger power. "enjoyed a long trading relationship with the federation" indeed. i know you don't like to bring in real life politics, but this episode is unbelievably real and prescient.

[@dismafuggerhere2753]

I'm not God or Q or... or Barbra Streisand

[@brothermine2292]

False dichotomy, because killing (innocent) civilians is NOT the only alternative when all peaceful means are proven to fail. Another alternative is destruction of property, and property is a relatively soft target. Compare to Star Trek TOS season 3 episode 21 "The Cloud Minders," in which the terrorists damaged a work of art. The other problem with the question's premise is that it's not possible to prove that all peaceful means are doomed to fail, nor that killing civilians has a better chance of attaining the goal. Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are counter-examples to the terror attacks on London during World War II... they don't seem to have backfired, apart from tainting the Allies' claim to the moral high ground. Russia's massive attacks on civilians in Chechnya & Syria don't seem to have backfired either. What made that Star Trek episode better is the moral grayness of the anti-hero Finn and his cadre of freedom fighters. Their willingness to sacrifice their own lives for other people's sake makes them sympathetic characters.

[@willtrantham6284]

Hi. I have been keeping up with this series for a while and wanted to say I have enjoyed it alot. You're very intelligent, and easy to listen to, thank you! I know you enjoy discussion and reading comments, so I wanted to share this important message with you. Star Trek is about many things, and one of its centrals is what life is made of, the point of it, meaning of it, etc. Unfortunately, the series never really presents the truth. Because of your high value as a person, not just you but anyone who reads this, I want to tell you the truth. We are all, as well as everything in the universe, seen and unseen, created by God. He is the reason we have right and wrong in the first place, our laws, etc. He originally created a perfect world, where we enjoyed a perfect relationship with Him, until we chose to rebel against Him. Now, none of us are good, we all have broken God's perfect holy law, and we must suffer death and eternal punishment. However, God provided a way to escape it, by sending His son as the substite for our punishment. You, and all who read this, can enjoy eternal life after you die with your good Creator by turning from your sins, placing your faith and trust in Jesus, and living for Him. I care where you spend your eternity, so please consider my words and I would love to hear from you. If you have a Bible, then I would suggest rereading Genesis and John, and if not, I can provide you a source online. Thank you for your time!

[@rmsgrey]

I don't know that I'd want Star Trek to go more into the political side of the Federation - I'm not sure I trust the writers to not screw it up...

[@Hurricanelive]

There's some things I want to tell you... 👌🐱‍🚀

[@Trecesolotienesdos]

does anybody think terrorism isn't complex? so if a people are oppressed, then why not fight back?

[@jeandehuit5385]

I hated this episode. I don't think 40 some odd minutes of television was enough to cover the nuances & complexities of a situation like this, & in the end I thought it fell flat. Mainly b/c I was on the side of the freedom fighters the entire time, & while I like how the Enterprise crew wasn't wholly accepting of them, the fact the story itself tried to undermine them at seemingly every turn left a bad taste in my mouth. *I* would certainly do anything in my power to overthrow an oppressive regime. Sure, you *could* end up w/ a cycle of violence, but you can't know unless you try. For me, it's not that it *isn't* unethical. Yes, ofc. it's unethical. But, given 2 unethical options, I'd rather choose the *most* ethical option, even if I'm not totally personally comfortable w/ it.

[@jyotishmoyboruah9327]

A lots of blah blah blah ...🤒☹️

[@saphojuiced6243]

Expected him to dance a jig?

[@emt56399]

If you dropped into this wanting to see the episode click away now it just some dude talking about some dumb crap it's not even worth your time to watch click away now you have been warned