Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S3E22: The Most Toys

[@francoislacombe9071]

Of course Data fired. We see him point the weapon and press the trigger just as the transporter beam hits him, and O'Brian says that there is a firing weapon in transit, and he has to deactivate it before materializing Data. Where is the ambiguity? It's ambiguous to THEM, not to US.

[@terminat1]

O'Brien.

[@stevencoardvenice]

I don't think so. I don't think data fired

[@jeffreymiller9438]

I always thought he did.

[@AnEnemySpy456]

Data absolutely fired. The line where he said something must have happened was added in at the last minute because some of the producers wanted to make it ambiguous.

[@MrShadowbite]

Data fired. I'm a bit confused that this is in question

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

Saul Rubinek was a force of nature, in this episode! An outstanding actor, from top to bottom. 😀 My only complaint about the episode, was the way Riker was fidgeting with the Varon-T Disruptor. Yes, it was “deactivated” in transport, but he was jamming the muzzle into his palm! Do you want to end up like Varia, Commander Riker? Because that’s how you end up like Varia!

[@AlcomIsst]

_"I like to think that, after he got the emotion chip, he replayed these events... to feel them."_ I think that's what happened at the end of Deja Q. Q didn't make Data laugh, he just gave Data the capacity to understand humor, and enjoy and laugh at it. Data with his perfect memory, cycles through his entire life, and laughs at every joke and every moment of comedy he's ever experienced simultaneously, because now suddenly he gets it.

[@AdamCollings]

I like that.

[@Filemonefly9]

Hey this recalling of jokes was inside the Generations movie, not in Deja Q! And Q gave him only pure laugh. It ended as suddenly as it starting - equation zero.

[@Oydman2000]

I love the moment when Varria realizes that Data will continue to passively resist, and that Fajo will eventually have to kill her to get Data to comply. That out of all the crew, she is most expendable. And that her death will be as painful as possible to sway Data. Very grim for TNG.

[@tubeviewerX20]

When Fajo kills Varia, he’s thrown aback for a few seconds, then threatens to kill another one of his crew in order to try to coerce Data again. That scene proves once and for all just how evil he is.

[@stevencoardvenice]

Yes. He's a psychopath pretty clearly. Not much mystery there

[@thENDweDIE]

How brilliant..!! I have a rock as well... It was given to me by my nephew, and it was from the grand canyon. Ive had it for two decades now..!!

[@TheC.O.-VISIT]

He did fire, stopped only by the transport, and if you look close enough there was a flash of anger. And in the end Data gave it back to Fajo who always referred to him as an android. Remember that Soong knew that Data would in some way develop emotions naturally.

[@piotrd.4850]

Oddly enough - for show's continuity, it is nice to think about shock causing Data to develop emoions.... just like later his own daughter did, in soemwhat similar circumstance of life / condition being threatened.

[@JanetDax]

Yes Data fired. It is a valid conclusion that Fajo has no conscience and will kill again if he isn't stopped. Data may be "just a machine", but he has an ethical program that can recognize Fajo is a threat to the lives of innocent people. Its beautiful though that Fajo is captured by the person he tried to capture.

[@charlesvan13]

Data firing was completely justified. Vajio made it clear that he was keeping his crew as hostages and he was willing to kill them to maintain control.

[@JS-wp4gs]

'if you don't do things exactly his way he'll take that carrot and torture you' sounds like a vorta. on that note they really should have brought that actor into ds9 as a vorta for an episode or two

[@technosworld2]

Is it just me, or does this feel like a TOS type of plot? Perhaps it's the costuming, set design as well, but it just feels more TOS than most TNG episodes.

[@Turtle1631991]

Nice to know about original writing intend. I always thought they dropped the ball and did not have data actually kill him in the episode. As to why Data did not answer the question and diverted, I always felt like it was some android equivalent of shame. Brent Spiner was always brilliant this way. Acting out Data like he has no emotions but still you feel like there is SOMETHING there.

[@ThomasAnderson1111]

I agree--I find Data not actually killing Fajo to be one of the most frustrating cop-outs in Star Trek. Though it should be said that it wouldn't be very frustrating if the rest of the episode were not so outstanding.

[@ohgoditshimrun1346]

Last night, I finished finally watching through all of Voyager, following the path of your Ruminations. Thank you so much, Mister Archengaia the Lorerunner, for making this bearable for me. As for this episode, "preserving the mystery" would have pretty much required making it a two-parter in order to preserve the narrative flow, which would have required levels of padding on the Enterprise side which would have likely turned out like Voyager's "Coda". And I strongly disagree about Data not having emotions at this point in the series. Data lied about firing the weapon because he was unable to process the reason why he pulled the trigger. Data already had emotions -- Lal's emotions. Data had incorporated Lal's programs into himself at the end of TNG: The Offspring, and thereafter began demonstrating emotional behavior, mosty visibly in Data's Day, Identity Crisis, Brothers, and here. Nervously tapping his fingers on the console while narrating about how fortunate he was to be unable to become nervous. Being unable to describe why he was so strongly motivated to solve the mystery of what was threatening his best friend. Asking to be left alone to say goodbye to his dying father. And being ashamed to admit to his friends that he had chosen to commit murder. In each of those instances, Data was clearly evidencing emotional influences on his behavior. But because Data is certain that he is incapable of emotion, he internally classifies those behavioral anomalies as errors to be neutralized, rather than as evidence of his own growth. Doctor Soong realized the truth in his respective moment, of course. Which is why he told Data that he would grieve for his father, in his own way. But Data never did. Nor did the writing of Generations.

[@welshman100]

I think Data made his mind up in that last second and decided to end it. Though I would have liked to see Data actually kill him, mostly for his character arc. In all, I really liked the somewhat ambiguity to it.

[@Geomanb]

"He falls well."

[@DrownedInExile]

Shaka, when the Data fell.

[@Filemonefly9]

Strong play regarding Fajo's inconsistency inside the security/control area!

[@tiffanyshank8837]

I really like the way you've defined the collector mentality. I never considered myself much of a collector (and then looking at the huge piles of craft supplies or tiny dishes in my high school room, my parents thought otherwise) -- but by your descriptions, I was collecting -- just for utility only, pretty much. It doesn't matter to me in and of itself how rare something is. And then, never having played with dolls much myself as a kid, I got a sister and roommate for whom American Girl is her biggest fandom interest in the world. I've learned a lot about collecting since then. It's a bit odd because even though American Girl stuff is almost a collection by its nature, it's not particularly designed that way -- it's designed for utility; the more stuff from a particular doll you have, the more you can play with authentic historical replicas of everyday things (at least that's the idea, how well it works out depends on your own judgment I guess!). So it fits my mentality very well. Completely unrelated: I don't have much to add to your descriptions of your interpretation of Data's behavior at the end since that's all stuff I already agree with. I will say that I think that Data absolutely fired that because there were other innocent people on Fajo's ship (to say nothing of the innocent people who own things that Fajo might want in the future), and firing was an act to protect all of them. (If anything, I'm not sure why Data felt the need to evade the question -- any thoughts on that one?)

[@davidlow862]

Lore is the Spalding Gray of sci-fi analysis. I could listen to him talk about this stuff for days.

[@ashnackDEblogspot]

I think Data fired, but tried to bury it with a misdirection because he did not have that squared away with his ethical subroutines. I feel like that lie reaction was him "unsettled" in his own kind of way. As for the final scene, I think Data went to see Fajo to try to square that experience for himself. (Not because of trauma, just to know if that reaction made him more human). I feel like seeing how it does not make him any closer to being human, his "I am only an android" remark gives me the impression that he realizes in this moment that there is nothing to regret or feel from that situation, but that the zoo keeper in a cage does not give him a sense of irony or nothing of the sort. In short, in that shooting Fajo to save lives, there was for him the illusion of understanding more humans, but once all is said and done, he realizes that his motivations and reactions are no closer to his goals.

[@tbk2010]

I always thought that Data has some basic emotions and desires, they are just muted and undeveloped. After all, why do anything if you don't FEEL that you want, need, or should. That "mod chip" was really just unlocking the full potential of what was already there.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I think Data’s final scene was him getting closure. I think he went to Fagio to prove both to him and to himself: “I am different than this person.” Data collects things too. He does so differently, and the nuance of his brain confirmed that in that similarity there was a potential for synergy. So he went and ended that function of contemplation by *deciding* that even though they both fired the weapon, even though they both collect and enjoy that activity: Data is not Fagio. Data could not be Fagio. Another little point: I wanted Lore to show up in this episode. You can’t tell me someone didn’t go looking for Lore’s body with collectors like this out there.

[@mancilmj]

I liked the fact that we knew Data was alive but the crew didn't. We got to see how they dealt with the loss whilst having a Data episode. Agree the guest actors in this ep were top notch.

[@thENDweDIE]

Don't blink... Tears will flow...

[@TheRealityJack]

I remember liking this episode, but it wasn't a favorite of mine... but your passionate video really makes me want to check it out again!

[@stevepalpatine2828]

Data shooting Fajo can been seen as a logical response to the situation. Fajo had already demonstrated that he had no problem murdering and torturing people to get his own way. Data's programming would not allow him to harm _or by failing to act allow to be harmed_ another sentient being. By letting Fajo live, he would inevitably kill or harm someone else in the future, so killing him did not require anger or a desire for revenge, it was logically the only way to prevent Fajo from harming someone else. By stating "If you don't obey me, I'll simply kill someone else" Fajo left Data no other logical choice to ensure no one else would be harmed, hence his statement "I cannot allow this to continue."

[@nathanschultz5538]

Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!

[@Enkarashaddam]

Data shot first lol. No definitely another favorite episode. The way Data turns the tables by the end is superb

[@thENDweDIE]

The PS2 black disks would play the score in a CD player...I remember DD2 and Drum..!!

[@Brando64]

I've often wondered why Data didn't just start destroying Fajo's collection, maybe that way Fajo would've been forced to set Data free...just a thought.

[@athrunzala6919]

I don't think his moral sub routines would allow for a passive aggressive action, especially against things that were demonstrated to have have actual value. I recall he pointed out one of the pieces was missing from another world. Not Data's property to destroy -- even in this situation -- and he knows it.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Inconsistent speeds and distances of travel are not unique to Star Trek; it's a problem I also struggle with regularly when I'm running a D&D game. If you draw a map which firmly establishes where everything is located relative to everything else, and you firmly establish non-variable speeds for different vehicles and mounts and such, all you've done is make your job writing in the future more difficult, because you create the ability for this kind of "mistakes" and "plot holes" to happen. If it happens anyway because you don't do all that, I figure it's far more understandable. Everything just happens at the speed of plot, and IMO it's not worth overanalyzing it.

[@DrownedInExile]

Data: "My human life preservation directive forbids me from harming, or by omission of action, allow to be harmed, a sentient being. Fajo is a demonstrable threat to sentient life. Therefore his existence must be *concluded* ."

[@thENDweDIE]

David Rapaport..?? HaHa..!! Brint said his name was Michael, when speaking on this story in new york...

[@harpercole5321]

Yes, Han shot first. Sorry, wrong series - Data shot Fajo. The weapon being in a state of discharge leaves very little room for doubt. This was a greatly improved dilemma from the one Riker had a few episodes back, as Fajo's force field meant there was no other way to stop him. It also has more emotional impact, as I get the feeling this would have been Data's first kill, so there's that loss of innocence. To be honest, the ending makes me wonder whether Data doesn't have emotions already. He visits Fajo pretty much just to gloat, it seems. Perhaps he could feel rage for Varia's death after all? Wonderful interactions throughout between Spiner and Rubinek. We'll never know how strong Rappaport's performance would have been, but this was a great substitute showing. I think this is my favourite episode so far.

[@ShadowStoryteller]

I'd like to think Data fired with the intention to miss. Just to scare Fajo enough to coerce him. To tell him the next one won't as a way to get around his ethics subroutines. After all, if he kills Fajo it's murder. If he threatened Fajo as a way to return to the Enterprise, he's done the duty of any military officer kidnapped by a hostile party: effect escape and return to friendly territory.

[@roystonsbailey]

Worf replacing Data in Ops made no sense.. he's clearly suited for tactical a lot more, it's been established. I get they didn't want to bring in another character, but it's not something viewers can readily understand without explanation.

[@X2Magneto]

Ambiguity is the name of the game, but its in the WHY and not the IF. What remains shocking to me, what I have never been desensitized to, is that the one concrete thing about the final moments, the one thing that is not ambiguous at all, is that Data fired. Knowing this, the build up to those final moments raises several questions, two of which are at the forefront. When Data fired, did he do it as the end result of the logic problem being worked out?...or was he taking revenge, unaware that he may actually be capable of some form of emotion? Did the Android's logic leave it as the most permissible act or he is a man grasping to rationalize something he has already decided he will do. The line, "I can cannot permit this to continue" is where the true ambiguity lies.

[@intheredcold9216]

One of my faves.

[@andrewkyriacou6405]

Love this episode. That's all I really have to say on this one.

[@corssecurity]

Poker, betting? Raising incrementally by Data. Vs Fasha trying to scare Data by raising orders of magnitude. I'll accept help if anyone can complete the analogy.

[@Threesixtyci]

About warp.. didn't they put a cap on warp speeds on a later episode because the tracks were basically tearing up our dimension? Then... it was never referenced again... Final line was calculated sarcasm on data's part.... if u ask me... just a comment to throw some salt onto the wound. While at the same time turning on some self-doubt onto his human captive.

[@jeffreymiller9438]

Surprisingly, one of the better ST TNG episodes in the series. If Rappaport had played Kivas, I am not sure the episode would have been a success. The few scenes we saw him perform in clips didn't seem so good (to me). Saul Rubinek was an inspired casting. He was good as a provocateur in 'Unforgiven' as well.

[@physics2112]

Like or Dislike: Like. Data himself doesn't know if he fired or not. His positronic circuitry was overloaded by the intensity of conflicting commands, and at the instant the command to fire was engaged the transport was initiated and Data's memory has no record of pulling the trigger.

[@athrunzala6919]

Did you notice Woody and Buzz in the corner of the collection?

[@redpillfreedom6692]

How? This episode was filmed 5 years before that movie.

[@Special_Tactics_Force_Unit]

It took great EFFORT EFFORT

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

Killing in self defense or in the defense of others is not murder.

[@thENDweDIE]

"*Cough *Cough clues *Cough *Cough"... HaHa..!! WHAT THE ABSOLUTE FUK..‽‽

[@TroyeMB]

Lore, I realize that you recorded this long before it broadcast to us and didn't know this would happen -- but... basically, are you talking about a carrot something like the one your sister gave you a couple of days ago??? (Troye -- aka PlatyMcBear)

[@MiniLemmy]

It was a good episode, but the ending didn’t add up - Data would not have lied about firing the weapon - he would have explained the full circumstances and excepted any consequences of his actions (if any, since no kill was made)

[@stevencoardvenice]

Agreed. I think the ending is ambiguous. (I just watched the episode for 1st time on netflix and came on here to see reactions) We don't know if data was seriously going to shoot to kill there. I'm also not sure that it would have been justified either. And the transporter could have simply given a false reading, as data said.

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

OK, so since you have already finished Voyager, are you going to compile favorites list? Or have you already done so and keep it well-hidden?

[@alexutopia]

I started to make up my own head canon, since I was never really satisfied with Datas emotional state or lack of it. I'm very interested in real world AI development and as far as I'm concerned a machine without emotions is not alive at all, just like a human without feelings like hunger and pain would just sit there, never develop cognition and die. Now I believe there will be extremely competent patter recognizer AIs that might give you the illusion of being a real person, if instructed so, like your run of the mill hologram. But they will not be alive and since they state over and over again that Data is a lifeform and I want to believe that as well I decided that he actually has emotions after all, because I can not see a lifeform doing anything if it doesn't feel entropy, loss and pain. Struggling against that is what it means to be alive, everything else is just dead matter. A true living machine, in my opinion, would need to be constructed in a way where it does have feelings in order to motivate it to want or do something. So in my mind, Dr. Soong was so afraid of Lores emotions that he build a fail safe into Data, toning his emotions down to the absolute minimum, maybe emulating something on the lines of Vulcan emotional suppression as a software. When Soong meets Data and Lore he says, they are identical, suggesting that Data is even more sophisticated. So to me the emotion chip represents more of a hardware decryption key to unlock functions in him that are already there. I know it's a stretch and turned into one hell of a monologue here, but this is the only way I can accept Data as a character at all. In my world you either have emotions or you are not alive. The statement that he has no emotions always bothered me. Even a single-celled organism feels decay in a sense or it wouldn't struggle against it in an effort to stay alive and it needs to feel better or it wouldn't.

[@intheredcold9216]

@ Alex Utopia I always figured it was just bad continuity. Bcz Lore obviously had emotion so if the two are alike then either the bros both have emotion or Soong lied. And why that chip would do anything for Lore when he already had emotion is another misstep. I think he just wanted it so Data didn't get it.

[@IDKFA1D]

Wouldn't the confirmation that Data would have killed Fajo, if he wasn't prevented from doing so by the transport, severely limit any further development of Data (as an android trying to be human)? If he can on the spot decide that it's better to kill someone, rather than to go through the justice system (Data could have easily disabled Fajo non-lethally) - Where do you go from that from a show perspective? If Data is supposed to overcome hurdles to be more human, how can there be more obstacles now that he had murdered someone? Why would he be limited by something smaller?

[@MiniLemmy]

His only choice was to kill Fajo with the disruptor, since he couldn’t touch him because of that force field thingy he had - it would not have been murder since it was in defence of others - the only thing that didn’t add up was Data lying about firing the weapon, which means he may have been right about the transporter causing the discharge, even though the intent and justification to kill was there

[@stevencoardvenice]

@@MiniLemmy How was it "in defense of others?" I see everyone saying this, but I don't agree. No one was in any imminent danger, and for the time being, data was in control. I think if we were all on a jury, we'd be hung. I believe it would have been murder, had he fired at that moment. And we will never really know if he did. But I think he would have been courtmarshalled had he fired. It's his job to wait for starfleet until they arrive, or until Fajo attempts to kill another member of his crew. You're not permitted to kill someone just because you think you're doing the world a favor. Picard would not allow that

[@nickokona6849]

For me, this episode reminds me of a DS9 episode in one specific way that you alluded to. Distant Voices. Specifically, that the writers wanted to set up more of a mystery as to what was really going on, but the structure did away with it way too early. If the cold opening in Distant Voices is taken out, it’s far more compelling. I think the same was true for this one. Just would be better with a restructuring. I personally disagree with your point about Fajo and his comment about Data walking around naked. He already has data. He is currently his toy. I always thought, and still do, that Fajo was alluding to at least a passing attraction to anatomical males. TNG writers putting in another progressive subtle message in that homosexuality r perhaps bisexuality do in fact exist in the future. Having it portrayed in such a subtle and off the cuff way paints it as a very inconsequential way, which is the goal in real life. I think Data was willing to kill Fajo as well. Data’s ad hoc explanation/diversion seemed just a little too ambiguous to say that t wasn’t a conscious choice for Data. It would kind of neuter the point to think otherwise. Data had no idea the Enterprise was even looking for him, nor how close they were. So his end game would have had to be a bluff that Fajo was willing to call (reminds me if data’s learning to play poker), in which case, Data helped get Varia killed for nothing, and just squandered his best attempt to escape and seek justic. Just my thoughts.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

I don't find the ending to be ambiguous at all. People tend to anthropomorphize Data because he's in the shape of a human, but without a emotion chip, he cannot be sarcastically bitter, so there is no ambiguity to it at all. Imagine if Spock (TOS not JJ) were in Data's position, he would never be so subtle, he's outright said to Q-like beings "I object to you. I object to intellect without discipline; I object to power without constructive purpose." And I find it strange fans think Data truly is being so petty and bitter in the ending when he's not capable of such actions, I think perhaps they are projecting themselves onto Data much as how Fajo did. Fajo is a gloater, so he think Data must be gloating. Data after all, wasn't spiteful to Bruce Maddox, he was legitimately trying to assist in his research in Data's Day, despite being morally opposed to the man.

[@shawnlake1491]

Data fired

[@kevanos4636]

Don't you feel old, when your childhood crush turns 70?

[@DrZaius3141]

That's do insensitive... my mother was crushed by an octopus right before my eyes! On a lighter note: I am the only one who feels uncomfortable about the antisemitic undertones of the rich amoral trader and collector who is almost aggressively coded as Jewish in his looks as well as his apparell? I was quite surprised to find out that the actor wasn't the first choice for the role, but it's not like a) the original actor wasn't Jewish and b) the didn't choose what the character would wear.

[@tubeviewerX20]

Maybe the casting/design was based on a personal experience and animosity?

[@stevepalpatine2828]

Oy Vey.

[@kurtreber9813]

Kivas reminds me of Trump

[@jamesdavid3811]

thought I was going to watch a cool star trek episode, but instead we see some silly bozo rambling on incoherently as if he is some kind of expert.

[@thENDweDIE]

How brilliant..!! I have a rock as well... It was given to me by my nephew, and it was from the grand canyon. Ive had it for two decades now..!!