Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S5E08: Unification II

[@LoreReloaded]

I always interpreted the fact the ship is never detected as a nod to the military. We know a lot of soldiers, even admirals, are tired of war..so one or two captains turn their head when something seems off

[@athrunzala6919]

The Bird of Prey was not in orbit, it was in the middle of a Romulan Park, that's why they weren't detected, and they didn't beam anywhere they walked off the gangplank into the open;)

[@anthonygagan4398]

Always loved the quote when he compared Picard to Kirk

[@chrislane481]

Lore, remember you're awesome and we appreciate all of the ruminations you do...I always find them interesting and entertaining.

[@petewatson-wailes10]

Regarding the Romulan plan, I (headcanon - I have no evidence for this) think that they're not going to invade and occupy, but to invade as a smash and grab. They're not going to try and take and hold the planet, but to go and beam up all the high ranking Vulcans and anyone else of interest, blow a bunch of stuff up as a showy message, and then cloak and leave at high warp. The aim would be political in nature, rather than military, which fits better with the sorts of things the Tal Shiar are good at. The aim afterwards would be to sow fear, and to show the weakness of the Federation by doing similar things to other single planet members of the Federation, similar to what happens in DS9 with the Founders on Earth. The other option is that Sela is trying to intentionally damage the Tal Shiar for some reason, and this is her best shot at it, and the presented plan is the real one.

[@Tuning3434]

+Pete Watson-Wailes First option: There is no comparison: the Founders literally could infiltrate anywhere, be anyone, and that was the big fear motivation. A smash and grab by Romulan military forces would make it very clear who did it, and where they are, and while threatening, not result in a similar crippling threat. Might even be the opposite, as they would have been more successful if they could imply Vulcan sympathy for the Romulans, or tear up the Vulcans out of the Federation by having them dispute on the Federation response. Attacking the Vulcans directly would made both impossible. Also, the Dominion military was a Galaxy sector threat: if it wasn't for the 2nd Dominion Fleet being prayed out of existence / Bajoran wormhole closed, all the main Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers combined had no hope to defeat them. The Romulans are lore-wise probably still behind the Klingon / Federation alone, but definitely not powerful to handle the combination of both. Although the Romulans probably have the more powerful (Alpha-strike) ships, it's hard to imagine they have the same level of ships as the Federation and Klingon's have combined. They are definitely behind on warp-speed, so can be outmaneuvered sector wide. Nothing here shows that the Romulans are strong enough to be both offensive AND maintain defenses at the same time. And remember, history wise, the Federation has always been able (or willing) to stand against Romulan aggression, even when the odds are very much in the Romulan's favor.

[@petewatson-wailes10]

@@Tuning3434 to clarify, I think part of the reason for going in Vulcan ships was to make it look like Vulcan separatists. I don't think they would have tried to make it look like a Romulan attack.

[@visualeyezdoug8158]

20:03 “I don’t know how to even begin explaining all of the ways that’s stupid”. hahahah sheer gold.

[@tonebonebgky2]

I love your calm way of talking about these things.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

All paths converge to logic. Yet from logic burst forth more ways to continue than can be counted. Those who have the bravery to attempt such roads are those who will never be forgotten.

[@MichaelJohnson-vi6eh]

whoa- I forgot. that scene with Nimoy and Spiner - brilliant but interesting that they both had significant Broadway careers.

[@francoislacombe9071]

In my own headcanon, Earth and Romulus have to be quite close to each other. They went to war a hundred years prior to TOS time, when warp technology was still primitive and Earth had only begun to explore the galaxy. I always imagined that the Neutral Zone is quite close to Earth, maybe a hundred light years at most, with the Federation expanding away from it on its side, and the Romulan Empire expanding on the other side. That being said, those troop transport traveling at warp 1 would still take many tears to reach their destination.

[@athrunzala6919]

The primitive Romulan leaving Vulcan 2000 years earlier would not have had a high speed with which to do it with, so yes close to Earth. So close that the Nova that destroyed Romulas in the reboot movie ought be a danger to Earth and Vulcan too.

[@ashnackDEblogspot]

My feeling about the romulan invasion is that it was always set to fail, to discredit Sela and the hawks that have already failed on the Klingon plot, pushing internally for a more isolationist policy. It would have the added benefit to show how the Federation will not declare war even to save one of their founding members. It could embolden non-aligned forces to take a swipe at the Federation or to recruit allies wary of the Federation. (Of course, it is just bad writing, but I wonder if the Romulans are not stuck in internal political bickering that costs manpower and lives on a regular basis, as they are seen as a commodity.)

[@zvimur]

Here's a "Quaazy" theory about Spock's motives toward Romulans. Remember first Romulan seen on TOS? Mark Lenard in Balance of Terror(?). So, if not bridging gap with Lenard/Sarek, find an alternative yet parallel goal.

[@zvimur]

9:57, basically Dune approach. Wrong universe but sharing Patrick Stuart.

[@JayTohab]

"It's a trap-trap! Nobody ever expects a trap-trap!" -Drakken (Kim Possible)

[@sidchicken2308]

The Romulans show up in The Pegasus. And that episode about all the major races are related.

[@SorakuFett]

I like to think the comment about the Romulan society, as the good ambassador puts it, "inexorably evolving toward a Vulcan philosophy" is more in the sense of an opening to logic and peace, not necessarily them just becoming Vulcans again. The two have been apart so long that literal genetic differences have evolved, the Romulan brow ridges or their lack of Pon-Farr to name a few. But even if Proconsul Neral was lying, he has a point. Societies will change simply because old leaders get old and stop being leaders. I rather like how STO handles it where, for some of them at least, the Hobus Supernova was the kick in the butt to tell them to stop being xenophobic warmongers.

[@NORGCO]

Excellent and thoughtful, as always.

[@malvane8061]

We do see the Romulans again a few times, but all those times are friendly engagements. One of those times the Romulans are actually the *most* friendly among a menagerie of alien species.

[@sidchicken2308]

Mal Vane they aren’t that friendly in The Pegasus. There’s no shooting, but lots of obviously false politeness.

[@ThisVideoAnnoyedMe]

They should have had Sela taken away by some Romulan guards at the end with someone saying how they her influence has finally run out and this dumb plan was her final failure.

[@badmaninc.536]

With how close Vulcan is to Earth, and the physical similarities between Romulans and Vulcans, I believe that the 2000 troops are not infantry or shock troops, but highly trained and specially skilled infiltrators. Their goal not being to conquer right away, but to start to destabilize Vulcan, and from Vulcan they can then send these same personnel to other member worlds. It would not be a swift culmination of Romulans efforts, but gradually, over the course of time, they could subtly, quietly, behind the scenes, destabilize many member worlds of the Federation, leading to the potential collapse of the Federation as a whole. Look how they were able to turn various houses within the Klingon empire against each other. That didn’t just happen overnight, that took time, patience, and it turned the political scene in the empire into a real mess for a while. They’re not coming to conquer, they’re coming to start sowing the seeds of division in the heart of the Federation itself. Data’s Day showed that the Federation had been unknowingly hosting a Romulan operative for decades, one who had been posing as a Vulcan diplomat of all things. Who knows how much damage she had been able to do through her tenure. Now it’s time to expand upon that. And for all we know, they succeeded, for all we know, the obvious flaws in this plan were deliberately made to be seen and thwarted. “Oh no! The Federation saw through our plan and stopped it! Darn the luck!” As they quietly slipped operatives in to the Federation in a dozen other places while the ‘big invasion plan o’ doom’ was being stopped. Just something to think about.

[@DrownedInExile]

Given how recent the Klingon civil war and discrediting of the Romulan-allied Duras clan, I imagine the Vulcan Conquest plan was simply too far along to stop. Or left hand didn't know what right hand was doing. Even if they couldn't conquer Vulcan now, perhaps they thought to try and bog the Federation's resources down in a sustained dug-in Vietnam-style conflict on Vulcan. But yeah this episode wasn't well thought-out in places.

[@EnvisionerWill]

I don't think that the Romulans would ever turn into Vulcans, since they went through a hugely different path, but I do think they would eventually become their own *version* of what the vulcans are. They wouldn't follow the teachings of Surak or whatever his name was (remember "The Savage Curtain"? Surak was a dipstick in that episode, and I'm glad he died). But they might well follow the teachings of SPOCK, since a half-human is the PERFECT person to teach Romulans how to be peaceful. The only comparable candidate would be "Nuvok" from over on Voyager, if he had actually remained that way.

[@davidberube4010]

good catch about Mendez

[@mr51406]

For those who would love to spend time with Leonard Nimoy, I heartily recommend the interview he gave to the Television Academy’s oral history project in 2000. Four wonderful hours with a great man! interviews.televisionacademy.com/interviews/leonard-nimoy

[@EnvisionerWill]

Curiously, part 2 here has about 1000 more views than part 1.

[@ryanlynn]

I always in my head thought sela wanted to fail. She was a loyal to Romulus but knew this would have lead to the ruin of the Empire fighting the post wolf 357 federation mind set and a klingon empire.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Hm, I bet Rick Berman wrote the scene with Riker versus the Ferengi, that pretty much has his fingerprints all over it. I like the fact that he's flanked by trophy women (including what I think must have been the first appearance of the hadrosaur-looking people that we see a lot of on DS9, which are among my favorite alien extras in all of Star Trek). But I hate the fact that Riker roughs the guy up; it's really out-of-character for 24th-century Starfleet, but sounds very much like the kind of thing that Gene and Rick would both have been in favor of, back when they were working on the movies together or whatever.

[@rafetizer]

I think Riker was just tired of taking everyone's shit over the two-parter.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Whoa-oh-oh, you are super wrong that we'll never see Romulans again! (And no I don't mean Nemesis.) What I currently believe to be my single favorite episode of all of TNG, yes even ahead of The Drumhead, is Timescape which is still coming up. That's an episode where the Romulans show up, and *we don't know* whether they're bad guys or not! Which almost certainly was only possible because of this movement toward a more peaceful future that happened in this episode. Selah and Proconsul Whoever and other such "hawks" in the Romulan government had egg all over their face after this scheme to conquer Vulcan flopped, and combine that with the fact that there are all these Unifiers still active on Romulus, gently pushing more in the peaceful direction, it makes perfect sense that a year later, the Enterprise and a warbird are both frozen in time, and Picard et al have no idea if this is a peaceful encounter or a battle. It's pretty amazing that this episode and your rumination have made me like Timescape even MORE, when you still have yet to Ruminate on it!

[@EnvisionerWill]

Of course, the ultimate future of the Romulans doesn't look very good, thanks to Alex Kurzman and crew over in the Kelvin/Picard timelines. So much for peace talks. But they did at least give us one cool concept for a new character in one of the comic books - a new post-Enterprise first officer for Kirk in the wake of "Beyond", who's a Romulan raised on Earth whose parents were dissidents. It's a little Mary-Suey, but no more than Spock himself was back at the beginning, before Nimoy and the writers gradually fleshed him out into a real character.

[@athrunzala6919]

I would suspect that the 3 Vulcan ships were a Trojan Horse and were special ops who would take out comms/defensives and other critical command points while the rest came in later. We only saw 1 Warbird, there were probably 60 loaded with 5000 troops each. They just needed the first bit of surprise to make it all work or they could be fought off at too high a risk. Vulcan is their homeland, that is why they want to capture it, it would be a cultural coup aw well as a political feather in their cap to reclaim their home on their terms, and even the Federation would realize that the Romulan aren't going to go out of their way to harm their Vulcan cousins and a conflict to liberate Vulcan would be more damaging then Romulan occupation.

[@rafetizer]

At that point they may as well just have sent a bunch of cloaked warbirds and completely ignored the Spock/Vulcan ship plot.

[@jamespepper8671]

2000 troops, yes this bugged me too!

[@sharkdentures3247]

My (admittedly flawed) memory has Riker mentioning "there were over 10,000 troops on each of those ships." (after the warbird destroyed the 3 transports.) I don't know if that is correct or not. But even if it is . . .30,000+ troops to hold a planet STILL bugs me! (maybe they could take over & hold the capitol city, or hold 2-3 major cities? but that is IT.) 2,000 troops? (or 6,000?) is a absolute joke.

[@athrunzala6919]

Maybe they were Gundams.

[@williamozier918]

I always took it that the Romulan were just using a beach-head strategy. No, that was not enough to take over the planet, but you plop them down and take over something important. They begin negotiations with the Vulcan govt. If the Federation attacks those Romulan forces, then A0 they violated the Prime Directive, and B) Romulus now has its cassius belli. Without honor, but very Romulan, and considering the Federation's blood runs like water, it just might work.

[@rafetizer]

@@sharkdentures3247 Nope, they stated there were 2000 troops in total. (right after the warbird destroys them)

[@rafetizer]

@@williamozier918 I don't think the prime directive would apply since Vulcan is both warp-capable and a Federation member state.

[@Schmirrgl]

Maybe the Romulans desire to conquer Vulcan is more a psychological thing. Like our way is the right way and we show it to you by "eating the fathers". Just because they can, how their society is superior, especially after the humiliating defeat in the Klingon power struggle.

[@flnthrn2]

Of all the Next Generation episodes that bring back Original Series actors, my favorite is the one with William Shat....... oh, wait...…😁😁

[@EnvisionerWill]

Heh, the fact that the Tal Shiar didn't exist makes a lot more sense of this episode, since I found it a little hard to comprehend how Picard and Data and Spock and the Unifiers could all sit in a bar right across from the Romulan Consulate without anybody noticing how incredibly suspicious they're acting. My headcanon explanation is simple - the Tal Shiar can't be everywhere at once, and they were clearly all off doing something else at the time. But the real explanation is better.

[@rafetizer]

You'd think that if Starfleet could get a long-range picture of Spock on Romulus that the Romulans themselves would have found him long before. I mean, they're bound to have CCTV everywhere, along with facial recognition software.

[@EnvisionerWill]

This episode might have made more sense if you somehow put it after "Yesterday's Enterprise" but before "Best of Both Worlds", so that the Federation had almost no military strength left and thus was seemingly a pushover for the Romulans.

[@rafetizer]

Wait, don't you mean _after_ BoBW?

[@RippingJack76]

I'm with you on the 2000 number. The Vulcan police force could probably take care of them. Remember! Vulcan Animal Control has to deal with large Dragon like predators. A2000 strong Romulan Army would be a joke.

[@rafetizer]

Their actual goal was to make the Vulcans laugh.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Hm, this is unquestionably not true, but it amuses me to think that the 2000-man invasion of Vulcan was a Star Trek version of the Martian Invasion in Kurt Vonnegut's "Sirens of Titan", ie that it was deliberately engineered by a mastermind specifically to fail, so that its failure would result in a drastic political change. Which is kind of what actually happened by accident, now that I think about it.

[@rafetizer]

The thing that gets me is that Spock is constantly wandering around in the open, his Romulan pals are constantly calling him by name, and they seem to keep meeting to discuss their underground stuff openly in pubs. What the heck, are you guys _trying_ to get caught?! Spock's assessment that Pardok is the traitor may be accurate, but doesn't automatically follow. Prior to that meeting, Spock had met with the proconsul, who also knew that Pardok was involved with the underground. It seems just as likely that the proconsul put a spy detail on Pardok and/or Spock to track them, and could have easily chosen that time to capture them. I suppose Sela wouldn't have been there if it wasn't Pardok, but still. The sneaky occupation force was quite pathetic. On the plus side, I also found the scene in the bar to be highly entertaining. The first song she was playing sounded like crap, but the Klingon opera was cool, as was the song that the Ferengi always requested. Speaking of the Ferengi, he cracked me up. Apparently the guy felt like he owned the place, or he wouldn't have been so cocky. It's kinda funny seeing Riker get jerked around twice in one adventure. But yeah, maybe Ferengi dude should employ some muscle instead of arm-candy.

[@EnvisionerWill]

It was interesting to note that Rick Berman had his fingers on this script; while I agree that the episode isn't great, it is good, and this episode airs with a note up front about Gene's death in 1991, so I'm guessing that this was the first ep to be finished right after Berman literally inherited Trek from Gene. So, assuming that Michael Piller wrote most of this and Rick just meddled a bit, I feel as though his meddling probably didn't ruin the episode too much, even though I do suspect Rick of being responsible for some of the episode's weak points (such as the idea that 2000 soldiers can conquer the entirety of Vulcan).

[@EnvisionerWill]

And the episode that began with "Gene Roddenberry RIP", your rumination ends with "Leonard Nimoy RIP". How fitting. Not sure if you did that on purpose or if it was just because this was the last time you'd bring up Spock; either way, it fits.

[@williamozier918]

My take is that the Romulans never meant to actually militarily take Vulcan, but rather establish enough of a beach head to play politics. It still seems a ridiculous strategy, which to me seems to support that Spock is right; there is a mounting pressure to re-join Vulcan culture, and this is the Romulan govt's way of trying to accomplish that because if they don't they fear they will loose power.

[@XalenMaru]

STO not withstanding, from a canon perspective isn't it reasonable to think Sela could have died in the failed Tal'Shiar/Obisidian Order assault on the Founders? Then again, if she survived and was taken prisoner, she was probably instrumental in negotiating the non aggression pact Romulus had with The Dominion. So... I guess I answered my own question as I wrote it.

[@nicholassterling8483]

RIP Leonard Nimoy. As a fellow Ukrainian Jew, I miss him deeply. Nick :-)

[@Eric_Hutton.1980]

Attacking a core world of the Federation is an extremely bad idea, and I don't see it working. Wouldn't such an act draw the Klingons and the Federation closer? The Klingons couldn't let such an act go without a response.

[@harpercole5321]

Nimoy and Stewart didn't really seem to spark off each other that much, which is a shame given their abilities (and given how well the Picard/Sarek interactions worked). Nice scene at the end, nice bit with Spock and Data, but a rough, unfinished feel to the episode as a whole.

[@hamhockbeans]

Of course not he is Kirk's brother not Picards.

[@1300l]

Vulcan get invaded by Romulans with a 2k troop and 1 War Bird. Vulcans send a distress call Federation send triple that to defend AND has the claim that Romulans invaded federation space to strike a full attack on the Star Empire. Picard and Spock should allow it to happen actually.

[@Tuning3434]

+1300l 2k people is basically your average local music festival. And knowing that Vulcan has more than enough wilderness to start a guerrilla war from, those poor Romulan soldiers are goners.

[@athrunzala6919]

Nice one Reinhard von Lohengramm, did Oberstein whisper that one into your ear?

[@ieatvirgins]

You mean how Bush let 9/11 happen? 🤣

[@MichaelJohnson-vi6eh]

I never understood why the Romulans were so interested in taking over Vulcan. it was pretty far away. no resources to pillage. not an easy populace to rule. why?

[@Lonovavir]

My head canon: It was a poorly planned Tal Shiar operation. They suck at military operations and dictatorships have no problem sacrificing lives in dumb operations.

[@jeffborowiak8992]

SPOCK

[@Enterprise2010]

I know Vulcans are supposed to be pacifists but are we all assuming they wouldn’t fight back even using guerilla style tactics.

[@hamhockbeans]

Vulcans are stronger than Klingons and Humans combined I think they cod hold their own.

[@rafetizer]

Not only that, they would likely employ a universal hunger strike if all else failed.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Selah's plan for conquering Vulcan is incredibly stupid, but I believe it as being the kind of thing she'd cook up, since she's probably a thoroughly crazy person. The only thing about the episode which really stretches my suspension of disbelief is the fact that Selah walks into her office and doesn't notice that the walls have closed in, because they're covered in holograms large enough for three people to hide in. That was really stupid, especially the alcove with Data in it, since the hologram covered an alcove with a really big blocky wall that even a loon like Selah should have immediately noticed.

[@RippingJack76]

Malachi? Menagerie? Another non slamming observation. If I was running a KZbin channel. I would have Google tell me how to pronounce a word. But aside from that I love your stuff and you're spot on!

[@visualeyezdoug8158]

RippingJack76 this dude is straight peerless in his ability to just turn on a camera and riff for an hour + on sooo many different pieces of nerd culture...

[@EnvisionerWill]

Yeah, I can live with his weird pronunciations, given how much else he has going for him.

[@stephenaddario2924]

I feel like this two parter was a waste of potential. Huge shame we didn’t get to see Spock on the bridge of the Enterprise. The best thing to come out of this episode is Face of the Enemy

[@hamhockbeans]

Bones and Scotty was on Enterprise D. Kirk and Spock belong on the one and only Enterprise no bloody A, B, C,D or E.

[@steakman1989]

I really hope that Denise Crosby comes back as Sela for Star Trek Picard.

[@videogenics86]

It really irritated me that this blatant act of war by the Romulans was basically ignored by the Federation. I'm sorry, but attempting to invade and occupy a Federation founding member ought to have had levels of outrage even among the Vulcans themselves. As to the ridiculously small size of the invasion force, Vulcan does have defensive platforms right? Or starships in orbit? Nothing? After the Borg? Still, dislodging 2000 occupation troops should be trivial.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Maybe the Borg destroyed them all on their way to Wolf 359, and the Vulcans haven't replaced them yet, because "it would be illogical to react with undue haste; we should carefully contemplate how best to move forward in this difficult situation".

[@rafetizer]

Well, the Romulans destroyed the troop transports and fled the scene, so they'd likely just feed the Federation an official line of bullshit about how those troops were acting of their own accord or something similar. Pass the blame and dare the Fed to do something about it.

[@dreamwhisperer2340]

sorry to contradict you lore, but Geordi and scotty interact with each other.

[@Tuning3434]

+Oberon Maybe, but as 'character function' I would rather link Scotty with O'Brien. Geordi is not what I would call the common ingenious tinkerer as Scotty basically is.