Star Trek Voyager Ruminations: S1E16 Learning Curve

[@ilyanagalen9320]

The problem with the Maquis/Federation approaches is that they are on a Federation ship. Janeway made it quite clear at the end of Caretaker that the crew would be a Starfleet one, not a Maquis one. It's even asked in Parallax (by Chakotay) whether Janeway would've agreed to be his second-in-command had things worked out differently (Voyager destroyed and everyone on the Val Jean). It is NOT wrong for Tuvok to treat them like cadets. Chakotay agreed for his crew to join Janeway's as part a Starfleet crew, and here are a handful of them causing trouble just because they don't like the way Starfleet does things. Chakotay's response (to go and whack him) is to show him that if they were to do things the 'Maquis way' then things wouldn't necessarily be better on Voyager. Tuvok puts them through some Starfleet training because these Maquis need to understand what is expected of them. They are essentially terrorist rabble that need to be at least partially functional Starfleet crew members, because as you said, starships require your work to be spot on. Critical accuracy (or lack thereof) could be the difference between life and death to somebody on Voyager, and on this military starship things need to run efficiently. Sorry, but if you were for some reason on a military ship and couldn't do what they wanted you to they would very quickly put you somewhere where you couldn't put people's lives in danger. If you did something silly, you'd be in the brig. Janeway/Tuvok KNOW that every single crew member needs to be good at their job. The Maquis in this episode weren't doing their jobs right...that's why Tuvok says one of them (the Bolian Chell) is often given work that does not get done. Dalby has been pulling out and replacing ship components without telling anyone! This is all unacceptable in a military situation. It does sound like you just don't agree with the idea of discipline being instilled in people through adversity. It's very common in military organisations to be given crap work details in response to poor performance - not because they need to punish you, but because you need discipline in order to perform under pressure. People's lives could be at stake if these Maquis crew members fuck up, and the Starfleet crew know it. I actually really like this episode. None of it was out of character for Tuvok and I find it laughable to suggest it - he is ASKED to do this by the Captain, and he knows how to whip them into shape in the fastest way possible. It's also likely that Tuvok himself was training in a very different (Kirk era) Starfleet, where war with the Klingons was far more in everyone's minds than it probably was now. It is not a badly written episode at all, and actually as a theme goes back to what you've been complaining about regarding Voyager - that it doesn't address the base couple of themes of the show enough. Can't have it both ways. In the end, because both ways (rigid Starfleet discipline and Maquis 'push people out your way') aren't 100% applicable in the situation, both manage to learn something. Pretty good episode, actually.

[@hat8918]

I appreciate your perspective on this, 8 years later. As a former Marine, I do enjoy this episode more than most. There are some points often forgotten though. (1) Janeway's mission was to put these people in prison. Due to the circumstances, their crimes were forgiven if they agreed to work on a Starfleet ship. (2) In this episode it is mentioned that they were occasionally not showing up for their shifts, and performing tasks outside protocol. Hence, not keeping their end of the bargain. (3) The reason the military is so protocol heavy is because, when trying to lead a large group of people, it is far more efficient if 200 people perform procedures the exact same way, rather than everyone doing what they want. It makes identifying problems easier, and the reality is, not everyone's judgment is the same. Additionally, in the chaos of combat, your judgment is flawed even more, and trying to lead a large group of people when everyone is used to doing what they personally think is the best, means you've lost the battle. Everyone has to do things the same way. Janeway cannot efficiently lead Voyager in battle, if she has no idea how long repairs will take, and cannot give solutions to problems if she doesn't know how it was done. If something was repaired incorrectly, she wouldn't even know it was repaired when a problem occurred. This is a massive problem on a military vessel. (4) It was established in an earlier episode that everyone on board has had a full medical physical from the Doctor, except Seska. To me, this means Tuvok was aware of their capabilities. ( Major flaw with the episode ) The episode should have established more firmly the importance of protocol. As in, the why... Which is basically your main point, which I agree with.

[@ilyanagalen9320]

The whole point of Chakotay hitting him was that he was countering Dalby's profession to prefer the 'Maquis way' by showing him what it was. Namely, Chakotay would've done that in a heartbeat on the Val Jean (Chakotay's Maquis ship) if Dalby had refused to do something a more senior Maquis TOLD him to do. This goes all the way back to 'Parallax' when Tuvok is expressing concern that Torres broke Carey's nose, and Chakotay says to him 'she's a Maquis, and in the Maquis you sometimes have to push people out of your way to get things done.' It was a very apt demonstration of the difference between how they would have done things in the Maquis, and how they ARE doing things on Voyager. I think some people are overly enamoured of the romantic side of 'freedom fighters' like the Maquis without realising that they are in fact an armed paramilitary organisation who were savvy enough to take on the Cardassians. Remember to the Federation and the Cardassians, the Maquis were terrorists, not plucky rebels. This is highlighted in the DS9 episode 'Defiant' where Kira says to Thomas Riker that the Maquis are terrorists, she knows what one is because she WAS a terrorist, and that terrorists don't get to be heroes.

[@mr51406]

Overall this episode was better than I remember. 🔹Idea: some of the crew (like the Bajoran boy) should be allowed to be non-Starfleet civilians (like Neelix) but still part of the “family.” I could contribute if I was placed on Voyager, but according to my ability, according to my needs.🌹 I’m autistic (Bajoran boy too?) and 57. Don’t make me do laps; don’t intimidate me; let him wear his earring! But I can bond with a Vulcan.

[@williamozier918]

My 2cent response: The one part of your review I am on an opposite side of was your opening point about Tuvok. In short, you felt that Tuvok's reaction was bad writing because there were so many other sensible ways to interact with those Maquis given that he was supposed to be doing was showing them WHY Star Fleet does things the way it does. However I thought his approach and everything about was perfectly in keeping with Tuvok's character I believe. Several episodes have shown that Tuvok can be rigid in his thoughts to the point of complete ridiculousness. For example Meld, and the fact that he just could not accept 'no reason' as a motive for murder. And the final twist point at the end was that ultimately though we see that when lives are on the line Tuvok can and will break the rules without hesitation, and THAT is what impressed the Maquis. So though this episode was badly written and done, I still legitimately really like it as a Star Trek episode giving us an insight into one of the drawbacks of the Vulcan psyche, and I love it as a Voyager episode because Hey Maquis Starfleet tension, how novel!

[@williamozier918]

I think Tuvok's thing is that while he understands all the Maquis animosity and renegade backgrounds, the thing is to him working together as a Star Fleet crew is the logical thing to do. As the overlooked for its importance in understanding the vulcan psyche TOS episode the Immunity Syndrome showed us, a Vulcan crew DIED because what was happening to them wouldn't have seemed logical therefore they did NOTHING and let themselves die. When the Vulcan psyche encounters non-logic Vulcans get stupid.

[@williamozier918]

On a side note I think the TOS episode Immunity Syndrome was a significant event in Spock's character arc. It was the first time he really got to see for himself how the rigidity of the Vulcan way can lead to disasters that the human way of thinking can get out of. Go back and watch the episode and tell me I'm wrong.

[@ilyanagalen9320]

Completely agree. Not only are you right here about Tuvok, it also perfectly shows us how rigid the Vulcan mindset can be. One of the themes of the original series was 'look how logical Spock is...yet even he doesn't understand some things because he looks at things with pure logic'. It's actually really, really lazy to label something 'bad writing'. I've got to the point where I partly switch off whenever the 'it's bad writing' line gets trotted out, because it's just too easy on the internet to claim and is too easy to counter.

[@DarianHarder]

I feel like the rewrite is a little too "After School Special" for my taste.

[@MamaBat03]

@@williamozier918 l

[@chadhero37]

Why does Janeway, a captain of a star ship in Star Fleet, go to the holideck and pretend to be a fucking nanny?

[@wcoleman99]

i just figured the writers couldn't come up with anything better than women and kids go together.

[@philbertchow5425]

Maybe because once in a while, she enjoys not being Xena: Warrior Princess?

[@Lorerunner]

No. Due to... significant issues which include quality of frame rate which I have yet to hammer out and KZbin basically not being cooperative, I have put the LP project completely on hold.

[@Lorerunner]

Aside from the program I was using taking over an hour just to process 70 minutes of the LP, and then finding out that it would take roughly 20 hours to upload to youtube (KZbin has been giving me serious issues lately uploading), and adding onto that that I spent what is essentially my entire night amounting to 70 minutes of gameplay with nothing to show for it, I was ultimately rather discouraged. As for music; honestly there's no particular genre or composer I like, I like what I like.

[@sirjaunty1]

I like the Torres comparison to the crew in mutiny mode. Especially when Dolby made it clear during his pool game, that his partner had been raped and killed by the Cardassians. If the other members of the marquee (spell check correction.Lol) were willing to take matters in hand over Belanna, why not over Dolby and the others? Punch that Rick Bermann cushion! You know what I mean Arch ; )

[@RealAndres143]

Enjoying your Star Trek Voyager videos, sir!

[@czulkanglah3098]

Your idea of them just discussing their situation and sorting out their issues is great, I can´t see it getting boring! Imo, it´s overdue since the conference about the logististics of being in the Delte Quadrant in Paralax was interupted by this stupid space thingy just when they were about to get to the nitty gritty. (Also, they for better or worse later dropped Tuvok theorising the need to make the voyage a multigenerational effort.) But where is the Doctor in Your vision of this episode?

[@186mjn]

20 hours?! I can understand how that would be discouraging. Well, if you can manage to get it worked out at any point I'm sure we'd all enjoy watching your LP's.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

I wouldn't define the opposite of melodrama as conflict per se... it's more like sparks. If you don't want characters to fight or disagree, you can still have them bounce each other. Tasha and Worf were very good about this.

[@kblargh]

I remember this episode was the first time i ever heard the term "bend the rules". I was pretty disgusted with Tuvok exercising authority for it's own sake, and the fact that he effectively came out on top at the end just rubbed salt in it. I got Chakotay's point of view, but punching his comrade was way overboard. "Maquis dude, this isn't a dating service, i expect you all to do your duty", something like that, just anything but antagonize him further, let alone slug him.

[@ilyanagalen9320]

The whole point was that Chakotay was answering Dalby's profession to prefer the 'Maquis way' by showing him what it was. Namely, Chakotay would've done that in a heartbeat on the Val Jean (Chakotay's Maquis ship) if Dalby had refused to do something a more senior Maquis TOLD him to do. This goes all the way back to 'Parallax' when Tuvok is expressing concern that Torres broke Carey's nose, and Chakotay says to him 'she's a Maquis, and in the Maquis you sometimes have to push people out of your way to get things done.' It was a very apt demonstration of the difference between how they would have done things in the Maquis, and how they ARE doing things on Voyager. I think some people are overly enamoured of the romantic side of 'freedom fighters' like the Maquis without realising that they are in fact an armed paramilitary organisation who were savvy enough to take on the Cardassians. Remember to the Federation and the Cardassians, the Maquis were terrorists, not plucky rebels. This is highlighted in the DS9 episode 'Defiant' where Kira says to Thomas Riker that the Maquis are terrorists, she knows what one is because she WAS a terrorist, and that terrorists don't get to be heroes.

[@0utc4st1985]

Back when the US military was based on conscription we still had boot camp (or basic training) to prepare draftees for the frontlines. One issue I have with this episode is the sequence it takes place in, why is it at the end of season one instead of much earlier? Generally one season equals one year so shouldn't they have noticed these problems with the Maquis crewman long before this? And by the way, just to be sure, you don't have any kind of terminal illness do you?

[@devildham]

I've served with alot of guys who think like you.....they got people hurt, wasted the unit's time and cost the government small fortunes being a beautiful unique snowflake and in the end, most of them got chaptered out. The military's not for everyone.

[@zeromancer-x]

Heh, "Gym Leader". Someone was playing Pokemon around the time this was recorded.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I really don’t agree with your point about the Maquis taking the time to get approval. We’ve seen dozens of times what repair approval takes. *tap* “Crewman to Chief. I’ve got a faulty gel pack up here. I’m going to remove it and run some tests.” “One second, let me reroute the power so you don’t get killed/we don’t disrupt the holodecks.” “Got it.” “You’re good. Bring it down here and I’ll help you check it out.” “Thank you sir, crewman out.” *tap* Maybe a minute of conversation at max. I totally understood Chakotay’s punch. These guys have become comfortable. They’ve taken the benefits of Starfleet and the attitude of the Maquis, and that just won’t fly. So he reminded them of what the difference is, and if they want to do that: fine. He doesn’t romanticize it like they obviously are. That’s actually one of the reasons I like that this is at the end of the season rather than the start. Now, granted, Tuvok did poorly with his early attempts, in fact: I think he did need Neelix to point it out for him that he was coming on too stiff. Tuvok is used to working with pampered Fed kids he has to break. Not terrorists he needs to direct. I think he’s just defaulting to his habits because it’s all he knows how to do. That doesn’t make it better in any way, but it does make it in-character.

[@Dotoku14]

I'm playin WOW man!!

[@186mjn]

That's to bad. I was looking forward to it. The trials seemed to be going well. What happened? This is an unrelated question, but I've heard you mention a few times that music was a big part of your life (or somthing of that nature). What sort of music do you listen too? If there is no particular genre, do you have any favorite artists and/or composers?

[@MarshallMiller157]

Have you considered, assuming your internet connection can hold up, doing a stream? That way you've already got the video up there when it's done on the servers (twitch.tv offers this). Sure, it would be a little less edited, but it could work.

[@whizzytheelephantadventure1063]

This episode should have been a Lamentation.

[@padawanmage71]

OMG, the episode where the macaroni and cheese nearly blows up a starship? *facepalm* I remember watching this one...

[@kereed1000]

I know what it's like. It takes over a hour for me to up load a 20 min LP .

[@MBF78]

completely unrelated to the matter at hand when you say "bits and pieces", it always reminds me of Weird Science - the song, not the show. :)

[@186mjn]

Are you going to upload a let's play?

[@rheiagreenland4714]

Get the cheese to sickbay.

[@186mjn]

As to the music, would you consider making a video on the subject? I think it would be interesting, if a bit more challenging to talk about than video games. Or perhaps you could list a few songs you like. Sorry to press you, but I'm dreadfully curious.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Except from the Bajoran guy, the other crew- people should have been Tom Paris, Torres and Neelix not these never to be seen again other fellows .

[@Doomfearkeeper]

Ouch,,70 minutes to make the video and then nearly a day to upload...Can't say I blame you for ditching the LP project for the time being until another solution presents itself.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

It's definitely been too long since I saw this episode, for all that it's the worst in season 1 imo. I literally don't remember the Bajoran in this episode at all. indeed, I think there's a fourth member of the group who's a woman, because I think the Bajoran is a man, and that's all I remember about either of them.