StarCraft 2: AI vs AI - Epic Pro Bots Tournament Match!

[@carlosmiguelteixeiraott3643]

Lowko: "I have absolutely no idea what to expect from this particular game." Red AI: "Strategy: Banshees and Cyclones."

[@nichan008]

Truly, AI is just here to be our friends.

[@Durrtyboy]

​@08weavn I bet if they improve this tech they will sell it to the military

[@cye2310]

​@@Durrtyboy The AI will now pick strong or smart men and women in the military, instead of picking weak ones. No more adding liability.

[@kirbyjoe7484]

@@cye2310 Nah, smart humans are a liability to the AI. It would be smarter for it to surround itself with mindless grunts that do nothing but obey orders, The last thing it wants are humans that are smart enough to avoid going on suicide missions for the greater good.

[@robinv1485]

The military already has A.I. doing strategy btw, they have some pretty cool tech that is public knowledge. But the final decisions always go to humans except for close defense systems which obviously don't have time to be reviewed and there's no repercussions if they misfire. It's important to note the distinction between general A.I. and the current A.I. models that we have. What kirbyjoe said is general A.I. which does not apply to this or chat gpt, or your common prompt based stuff. These A.I. are trained for a specific task through machine learning, that's all they will ever do. They inform us on how to program more efficiently and help us learn about them for other purposes, but all they do is play SC2. The same way generative A.I. just takes something humans did and makes an answer to it. Meaning if humans stop doing stuff, they just get stuck in time. General A.I., meaning A.I. that self teaches and evolves similar to us humans is way way off despite what most people think@@Durrtyboy

[@Vers-AI]

Thanks for the Cast!!! For those wondering, these bots are around Diamond. Though the top bots have take a game off of a GM before (only the first game though 😅)

[@BrisingrFan55]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Google's Alpha bots had to play the equivalent of thousands of hours, if not decades worth of games to reach professional-level decision making and plays iirc. I can't imagine the botmakers here have access to the server power for that sort of intensity haha. Diamond is still really impressive though! Compared to any of the AI in Starcraft, even with cheats, these AI are clearly better without access to any cheats. Am I also correct that the messages the bots type out are pre-programmed messages made by the bot programmers? I imagine they're useful for debugging, essentially.

[@Ketroc]

My favourite analogy is, imagine every unit being micro'ed by a pro player, but all the decisions are being made by a bronze-league player. That is how bots average out to diamond'ish league level.

[@basicuser54]

@@Ketrocindeed, perhaps there should be an AI league with ai capped at around 800-1000 APM? Would this force developers to build intelligence?

[@asdfqwerty14587]

@@basicuser54 It's not like the bot developers are intentionally making the AIs stupid, it's just that it's really really hard to code an AI that handles the general case intelligently. You can make an AI that plays well in a few specific scenarios, but as soon as something unexpected happens the AI has no idea how to respond, and it's incredibly difficult to fix that.

[@Ketroc]

@@basicuser54 Decisions in assessing a situation is what bots are poor at. Lowering apm would mostly just be a process of removing redundant commands and grouping units who need a similar command... So it'd mostly just be making more overhead for authors in terms of micro. If our bots ever become too strong for humans then maybe limiting apm for fairness would be a good idea.

[@DavidDavid-en8ys]

Before getting into AI, Ketroc was a very entertaining streamer who had a unique Turtle Terran style focused on Ravens and mass economy planetary fortresses. He played mostly low level GM and masters, and he had a very low APM for his MMR. The AI he built is based on his original play style, but with unlimited APM. He’s a very chill dude.

[@paulsd9255]

I still remember Ketrok for the polanetary forotdds

[@goccha]

He run one of the first industrial scale salt mines on the ladder.

[@synthetic240]

@@paulsd9255 Happy LagTV is back? They got too hungry on just the podcast, I think. They've had some great casts lately though.

[@lothar3073]

This is like terran adjutant vs terran adjutant. Crazy stuff like this is fun to watch from time to time!

[@gamechanger8908]

​​@@hansmatos2504I mean in the Campaign Raynor asked the Adjutant if his troops were ready. So I guess they manage troops, it wouldn't be far fetch if they can command in battle.

[@TimmyMicBobbins]

i wanna see Lowko cast a Z vs Z Ai match ... XD

[@llewellynpriest6840]

Plz plz do more games of this. So much to learn and extract data from. Just the thought process behind some of the choices could be fascinating to watch

[@pauldraper1736]

Unless you have 20k APM, there's very little to be learned.

[@porcorosso4330]

exactly. if they strategy is based on constantly clicking on workers and rerouting them... then there isn't much to learn... it might force it to do more inspiring strategies if we cap the apm.

[@stixinst5791]

Obviously he did not mean learn how to play. He ment learn how to program, understand the mechanisms these algorithms use for decision making....

[@Skumtomten1]

I wonder what the thought process was behind sending marines after marines into their doom

[@pavel9652]

AlphaStar was fun to watch, especially when beating pros, not this high apm mess ;)

[@TheNerdCeption]

Worth pointing out that Ketroc likes playing this hyper-defensive style and programmed his bot to do the same, that is why almost every base is planetary fortress and why he programmed it to mule-bomb the opp, he basically expects the game to go to split-map and resource depleted, also why it builds so many ravens!

[@MartaTzu]

Also, Ketroc Bot randomly choose a strategy at the start of the game

[@Vers-AI]

This is bang on

[@Knowbody42]

With a game that's won or lost due to attrition, you would need to make better trades, mine more resources, or both. If you mule your opponents minerals, even if the mules don't manage to return those minerals to you, you still take them away from your opponent, so they might run out faster

[@paulsd9255]

Polanetary forotdds

[@OL7XL9]

Ketroc rocks

[@kubaworlapim9166]

As the author of Bronzebot junior and Bronzebot senior, I love to see more SC players being drawn to this side of SC2. Btw, these bots face each other at least once a day. There are a lot of replays to be casted.

[@taldarim807]

they do act retarded and there is little to no discipline n their playstyle.

[@hydraulichydra8363]

Lowko, the reason they are spamming worker move command is: the acceleration is different depending on whether the worker is set to "return minerals"/"gather" or "move." Move is faster so "Move beside minerals > gather > move beside command center > return" is a about 12% faster than "gather > return".

[@Vers-AI]

yup, its called speed mining! its a standard in bot meta!

[@asdfqwerty14587]

I'm surprised I didn't see them using the bunker trick with the refineries - the AIs I've seen in the past usually put 2 SCVs on each refinery and a bunker (well, when the 2 geysers are both next to each other anyway) to teleport the SCV across the bunker and get full gas mining with only 4 workers instead of 6 (effectively using a bunker as 2 SCVs that don't take up the CC's build time or supply).

[@Vers-AI]

@@asdfqwerty14587 that's something you'll usually see with MicroMachine and only when the geysers are beside each other. It's not cost effecient otherwise so it's map dependant

[@the_rabidsquirel]

@@Vers-AI Good to know. I also came to the comments wondering why neither bot was bunker mining.

[@tigadirt]

Damn

[@2019m-z8i]

More of this please! I love botfights!

[@Fever_Dream]

Yes, please more of this. If we can get some that are not Mirror matches, that would be *wild*

[@gabrieltheheadhunter4411]

3:27 i love the x2 stargate opening in tvt

[@theorochocz6735]

please cast more of these. And just to clarify, what i understand is that the difference between the google AI and those, is that the google one was self-learning, it would play millions of games and hone it's skills, but to do that efficiently the environment should be really controlled (like a specific map on a specific match up) otherwise something that was good on one situation would not be on another, and that's where the AI struggled. As for the AI shown in the video, they were hand-made, so they can get those crazy ultra calculated micro and unit positioning, but one thing that is almost impossible is to mimic the human capabilities of analyzing the situation. It is really hard to the AI to process all the information it is receiving into a kind of "understanding" of the situation. I think this is mostly due to the lack of pattern recognizing skill that our brain has well developed.

[@Tera_GX]

That "Mule bomb" is my favorite part! If this AI league is an ongoing thing, I would love to see them have developments on mid-game banter.

[@AXharoth]

i thought of this strategy before , it seems pretty damn good in some rare macro games where the map getting mined out , its good

[@Ketroc]

The idea is, if the bot is going mass ravens and already has a mineral bank, it makes more sense to steal the minerals from the opponent. FYI, when Ketroc is confident it'll win, it creates animated pictures on the minimap with mules instead :).

[@Tera_GX]

@@Ketroc That is actually awesome! I'm happy fun stuff was included after all XD

[@angry_zergling]

@@Ketroc Animated? Wow that sounds awesome!

[@beastslayer0737]

Would love to see more of this in the future. I bet Zerg micro would be insane.

[@Ketroc]

Zerg bots make burrow seem so OP. Imagine each individual roach in an army burrowing and retreating from a fight when they get low in health. Perfect creep spread and injects is insane too. I think toss/terran have more microable units in general though. Units with speed and range do well with bots for their kiting ability.

[@stixinst5791]

​@@Ketrocbut than again....there is no splash against perfect speedling micro. There are clips on ytb of AI splitting against multiple siedgetanks

[@Komatik_]

@@Ketroc Isn't that more or less just bootleg Blink micro? Keeps driving me nuts that Zerg players don't use Burrow just to keep Roaches in good health. Could use the spared larva for drones.

[@Ketroc]

@@stixinst5791 that must have been done in map editor. Bots can't split vs tank shots as they don't know what the tanks are targeting. They can space out everything though, like how mutas magic-box thors. I've seen marines space out to defeat tanks in bot games. Speedlings are nice as they can negate the opponent's micro. You can't really kite vs lings as they are so fast. So long as the zerg bot is smart enough to know when to swarm with lings and when not to engage, they can be very powerful.

[@Ketroc]

@@Komatik_ it's like blink + cloak + your army won't body-block you + you heal faster than medivac healing rate. Much more actions than blink-micro though which is why humans don't use it.

[@michaelgeary2727]

That was truly fascinating, I had no idea a entire league for this existed! Please do more!

[@MichaelCretu]

It's like watching a real war, where each unit moves on its own.

[@nighthunter3217]

We definitely want more of these. this is amazing

[@Sworn973]

Yah, first no arrows on thumbnail that is already a win, second, Please, bring it on, we love it. Last one from alpha start is quite old already, was hopping to see more of it. Would love to see pro vs ai, with no limits

[@voxvolhynia5400]

Now I want to see other races with AI like these, and pro players go up against them, and teams of humans/AI that have to work together, and so much more, all from our favorite caster & the true AI, Lowko!

[@cmLMolde]

Lovin' the longterm planning from the red bot, no upgrades for marines, because he just made two of em. But armour for buildings paid off massively the whole game. Even the planetary in the base helped defending his production.

[@gasparchify]

have you seen how human Ketroc plays the game? it's exactly the same, but just on 90 apm :)

[@winterbird4069]

this was super super interesting to watch!!! would love more content like this if games like this existed!!

[@OMGBENSANOOB]

Yeah I would be keen for more of this!

[@Justin3600]

I would love more AI content. AI vs AI or AI vs Pro sounds amazing.

[@ticenits1926]

That’s called single player mode, he’s playing single player mode versus the computer

[@AD-lr6pc]

Harstem already did it and the bot got destroyed, he thought it was about diamond level

[@nemou4985]

@@AD-lr6pc In the other Lowko cast, the bot won

[@AD-lr6pc]

can you link that @@nemou4985

[@Matchstickid]

Yes! More please. I would love for you to share with us whatever you learn about this scene.

[@nmgaro2156]

Is kind fun and interesting to watch, how much potential each unit has assuning the perfect micro, and at the same time we can see how dumb the ai can also be, like sending single marines against 10 banshees, and never changing the strategy

[@Ketroc]

You've perfectly described bots. Micro/macro beyond pro level. Decision-making below bronze level.

[@joelcright2819]

"Sugar, spice, and everything nice. But Professor Ketroc accidental added an extra ingredient to the concoction - bm"

[@GrizzlyClawss]

I've been waiting since Alpha Star for you to cast AI games. Please continue!

[@pettyking1621]

I have to say watching bots fight this efficiently while also using unconventional strategies is really cool to watch. Like you said though, any pro would definitely wipe them in the beginning of the game

[@zeal_seal]

Definitely cast more of these games! Was super fun and interesting to watch.

[@MangoOdin]

9:30 The cyclones really dropping them dance moves! ahhaa

[@ralone8314]

This is so fun to watch. The AI doing random stuff is so funny, looking forward to watch AI match of other races.

[@johnmelendez4551]

I want to see more matches like this and try to guess which programmers play StarCraft and which don’t 😂

[@Vers-AI]

you'll notice it definitely in the builds

[@IShadowZ40]

Don't normally comment but I wanted to say, Yes! I love seeing starcraft 2 played in different ways we've yet to see. It is why I love the potential of 2v2s in the future

[@put1996]

Please do more, this stuff is really fascinating!

[@syrehn7684]

i would watch more of these for sure

[@caconymic]

YES! More games like this! AI SC2 games are such a joy to watch

[@oldmantoast]

Great game, thanks for review this wild match, hope to see you cover some more!

[@IgorBezugliy]

Love this video, and definitely would like to see more. Also yes, you called Ravens Vipers more than once

[@devioustea]

i love watching ai battles such as npc wars channel so this is great

[@jaredgallivan8866]

I think its a cool concept. Id like to see more.

[@JR-zd7ns]

I was actually wanting to see one of these. Its interesting to see where they are at.

[@ironmonkey1512]

Lowko's Raven fixation validated by AI

[@brianp235]

That was so cool! Thanks for sharing this! Would be interested in seeing more

[@FoggyBeemerGamer]

I'd love to see a pro take on these AI. Even if the AI don't stand a chance, it's be hilarious to see.

[@ldn_rumrunner]

Giant Grant Games played against AI from each race on his archive channel

[@jingxuanwang8674]

The only reason these AIs stand a chance against pro gamers is because of their speed mining to stop the deacceleration of workers. I remember Harstem playing some AIs before.

[@wernerviehhauser94]

I would love to see some "Cheesiest man alive" against AIs

[@jingxuanwang8674]

@@wernerviehhauser94 I don't think the AI is meant to be cheese-able, and that's why their natural is a Planetary Fortress. They always play very safe, maybe overly safe. I think it'd be better to see some "Greediest Man Alive" against AIs.

[@wernerviehhauser94]

@@jingxuanwang8674 actually, now I want to watch both!

[@jingxuanwang8674]

@@wernerviehhauser94 Well, it'd be a super easy challenge and a super hard challenge. Both sounds good to be honest.

[@Knut92]

I would watch a few more of these

[@shikanoin_vik_gaming]

*Crazy world we live in, when Vipers are made in a Stargate in a TvT* 😂🎉❤

[@drditup]

i love it. also madlad ketroc. in the middle of a huge siege he goes "gas error corrected". out of the thousand bullets flying, he cared more about fixing gas. logistic gods

[@errons1]

I love this! more of this!

[@AlexValtchev]

Love it, please do make more BOTS games, but even better BOT vs PRO GAMER?!?!

[@iTankSometimes]

Why a planetary? Because Ketroc Lowko

[@Kandorr617]

Fun one, would like to see more of these as well as AI vs. Top Players. AI vs. Cheese could be hilarious.

[@frantisektichy7830]

I will love to see more its Soo fun watching them

[@SnyperMK2000JclL]

Lol i was JUST thinking about that amazing Stalker play by the google ai years ago and how it would be amazing to see again...

[@jingxuanwang8674]

Which race would be most OP with perfect micro? I'm sure it's not Protoss but what would it be?

[@RafaelJBC]

Zerg with perfect creep spreading would be really annoying.

[@jingxuanwang8674]

@@RafaelJBC I first thought Marines are a lot more micro-able than Zerglings but Zerg definitely have the best Spellcasters. Ghosts have EMP and can dodge Banelings. Zerg have legit infinite vision. I don't get how Stalkers are good though. EMP + Liberators (or Stim Marines) kills them all.

[@RafaelJBC]

@@jingxuanwang8674 Stalkers with an ultra precise use of the blink,get you able to just squeeze their maximum, i dunno for real about the game meta ,but i see ghosts as a Double-edged sword while being extremely dangerous to deal against it, but costly and fragile as the game progresses. Talking about those bots, Ketroc won because it just sticked to a strategy and waited the other side spoil all of its mines, in the end it was a economical victory.

[@Ketroc]

It's a fairly balanced meta for bots. Protoss can be good too. Tempests always kiting from max range. Phoenix can literally never take damage as they are faster than all anti-air units. Even something like feedback can be powerful in the hands of a bot. Zerg may have the least micro potential, but creep spread, injects, and burrow-micro are so strong. Current #1 bot on aiarena ladder is zerg.

[@cheislies0012]

Man tbh that was interesting yeah!! I'd love to see at least the grand finals for this casted from you Lowko!

[@mr.guakacado970]

This was really interesting to watch!

[@derpysean1072]

This is what comes into my mind when I imagine a Starcraft battlefield. Unit fighting all around instead of two blobs. Please make more.

[@royalcanadianbearforce9841]

Id love more of this if you can also explain more about the AI and how it works - almost akin to the way you do the player? Might just be me, but learning more would be VERY fascinating if you're able to provide the insight! Thank you Lowko!

[@shadowsmirk]

Ok, this is cool. If this catches on, we could have Microsoft vs Google AI at Blizzcon!

[@2Sor2Fig]

You did the best Alpha Star coverage imo, I remember that. Getting your input on where everything fits in is always wonderful. Thank-you for all the hard work.

[@joshtrevy]

This is very cool actually. I'd love to see a post game chat with the bot authors where they can talk about mistakes or strategies performed by the bots and how their behaviors will be modified for future matches

[@pathfinder.george]

Can’t wait for video titled “INSANE Battlecruiser vs Carrier AI Showdown”

[@JitteryBones]

I watch Forts AI Tournaments because I'm fascinated seeing players form and create AI builds just to see what's possible, what works, and why. In my opinion it's wonderful for everyone involved- The developers get fresh perspectives from the matches, players learn how to manipulate the AI to work in their advantage, and viewers like myself can have a good time watching tournaments like these esp. when they're narrated by pro players of the game. Win-Win for me!

[@frankwaites8708]

Well done lowko, AI is really trending this season.... even though this more or less existed since 2010, all be it a lot 'smarter'

[@alexs5814]

I'd love to see more, for sure^^ the "strats" were out of this world and i found it funny that Lowko didn't talk about the massive disparity in mineral losses.

[@soabtanmnl]

Would love to see some more of these. One of my favorite things in Starcraft is seeing novel strategies and new ideas played out. I think these bot battles could be a treasure trove of interesting revelations on unit compositions and edge case effectiveness. As you mentioned, kind of wish that there was a GG threshold in these games, but I think you making the call and fast forwarding works in this context. Would be very interested to see different matchups and/or highlight games with interesting opening, mid, and late game shenanigans.

[@JohnDoe-kl6xg]

That was AMAZING! I think the next phase of SC2 could be people making their AIs fight like Pokemon!

[@alexwong3365]

Watching this match felt like watching an MMO with all the little fights happening at the exact same time, and other units joining the fight while other teams go off and do their own thing. Absolutely nuts.

[@TheAmazingOne25]

I need more of this!

[@wackaflcka]

Funny how i searched for videos of this tournament as i didnt get to watch it live and then u upload it. I really appreciate it, i hope to see more

[@OlleMattsson]

That. Was. Awesome!!! Please cast more probot games =)

[@quasar2834]

14:52 Ahhh yes, the famous Terran Viper! Truly a unit to be feared!

[@elijahremington5563]

First comment on this channel, 3ish years of constant watching. I love the pro bot games! It's so different and something that is almost entirely ignored by mainstream media. I really hope you mix these games in from time to time when you can. Keep up the great casting :)

[@Foof0811]

I'd love to see more of this

[@Thingymabob1000]

It's just crazy to watch the gameplay honestly. Like you said, seeing some of these units with borderline perfect micro and how much they shine as a result is very interesting.

[@shahbazshaikh9169]

I'd love more of these

[@dotero666]

do more of these pls they are very fun to watch

[@aziouss2863]

Ahahha i love how the AI uses the Raven the canonnical AI unit!

[@OHOHOHCOME]

Games like this make me laugh so hard from watching how ridiculous the units move.

[@eternaltruth1666]

I loved this game! Cast more games like this!

[@vancekuto]

That was really fun and interesting. Loved seeing the crazy micro, would definitely want to see more.

[@xyreweltmon3215]

I definitely want more! This was incredible!!!

[@Ximnipot69]

This is absolutely fascinating to see, even if I can't understand half of what is going on in all this chaos. Please please please do more of these!

[@memedaddy6932]

Really cool! It has such a different feeling from normal StarCraft

[@JusticeJudge]

I'd like to see more game like this with the other races.

[@bryand1110]

9:53 - This is the message I'll be using at Thanksgiving dinner this year when I release pressure after a fine meal.

[@louistrinh3608]

It's amazing Lowko, please cast more AI games. It's certainly more entertaining than human pro games.

[@markatonc]

I would honestly be happy seeing other Bot vs Bot matches covered by you.

[@Demigodish4o3]

Hey Lowko, got an idea: What if we get pros to play at "Slow" gamespeed, then we watch the replay at standard speed. That way the pros will be able to do a lot more cool micro and do better macro. Could be cool to see!

[@kpavideos]

Def would want to see more of this

[@pietergeldenhuys5772]

This was great to watch would really enjoy more

[@BrettClifford-v6g]

Its fun to have this every once in awhile! Fast forward through sticking points though.

[@tosinkhaij9542]

It's like a fever dream you get after playing sc2 whole day

[@CameronVanNatta]

Quick answers for those not used to watching custom AI's: There's a gentlemen's agreement not to have the bot read the messages from the opponent. The messages are stored separately from the replays so when there's tons of replays the creator can easily sift through certain strategies and tags for replays that they care about. Also bot makers do make human-like messages purely for the viewer's enjoyment. None of the messages are human written in real time. Additionally the 2nd base is the most common base that bots attack, some almost exclusively(to get to the first). Even if you would otherwise never use PF's, a PF on the second provides a ton of value in bot matches. Air units are massively easier to maneuver for bots because the pathing is a straight line(no cliffs or obstacles to worry about), so air gets some favor by bot creators. The "dancing" some units have comes from conflicting commands to attack a target and stay out of a target's attack range.

[@qwqw176]

This was awesome to watch. It’d be really cool to see a ZvP just for the swarm aspect to really kick in.

[@leafykille]

That was the most fascinating game if sc2 I have seen in a very long time. The ai clearly have room for improvement and I will totally be watching more of these if you upload them.

[@avery464]

This is awesome, would love to see some more of these

[@necrogon22]

Ketroc, the HUMAN person who unironically builds a PF at his natural and masses ravens, must feel very validated right now

[@yommers]

I've been watching Ketroc the Raven King and his bot shenanigans for years, so seeing it pop up in your channel was an awesome surprise. This stuff is so goofy and fun to watch. He also streams his coding sessions from time to time if anyone's interested how he does it. More AI casts please!