Stationeers Thermodynamics update

The new thermodynamics update has delivered some changes to radiators and heat transfer as well as a heap of other changes and bug fixes. Today I will show that main ones that will have an effect of the game play as there are some changes that may cause problems for existing designs or provide opportunity for new ones.

[@malrift3027]

So many updates keep rolling out... all the poor old bases.

[@jessevanhorn3726]

I'm gonna have to wait a while since so much is broken right now

[@cowsareevil7514]

It maks for fun high stakes emergency retrofit. Can you redesign it before the base is lost?

[@Uzbard]

Thanks for keeping us updated, look forward to what ever changes come and the Cows evaluations!

[@wlmckinnon]

teasing us with the minmus misspeak, but KSP + Stationeers would be absolute lovable madness. basically gonna pipe your own rockets at that point

[@deneb3525]

The frames being not perfectly insulated was sooo important to know. We trying to follow old guides and was getting really stuck.

[@bulwulffcristole3235]

What I've found is that in a vacuum environment like the moon, radiation only works as long as the sun is visible, and only to heat up the gasses. The radiators do NOT cool in a vacuum at all like they used to.

[@ts_vexx6883]

Ah, great video! thanks for putting all that together. I can imagine that the devs are going to see this and swear at themselves. They are trying SO HARD to get rid of the cheaty crap but then invent new ones :D :D amazing.

[@cowsareevil7514]

I imagine they would have a bit of a laugh, they know this is all part of rapid development.

[@matthewcaradus1609]

@@cowsareevil7514 ha! didn't take you long to work out this exploit! Probably need to make sure I clamp this so it can't get hotter than the surface of the sun :D You can definitely still do some thermodynamics cheesing around rooms as frames and walls are still perfect insulators for world atmospheres. I want to get them exchanging heat with their neighbors at some point in the future, but there's more pressing stuff to work on first.

[@cdm96247]

Thanks Mick great update.

[@irfanakatkn1457]

wow thank you so much. no joke it is now so much easier and u explained it really good.

[@krismorgahan8589]

Thanks for the info the "Solar Furnace" was awesome. I have one question though, are there any stack mods that work with the new version yet?

[@lumirbaca1831]

Congrats to another YT milestone!

[@cowsareevil7514]

Thanks. I might have to build something stupid to celebrate.

[@lumirbaca1831]

Something working at speed of 1 M(some unit) per a unit of time.

[@Xuhybrid]

My understanding was that radiation was for low/zero pressure environments, using the external planet temperature. I messed around with them a bunch and radiation seemed much better on mars/moon than convection. The results on vulcan/europa was vastly different though.

[@ScarletFlames1]

Radiation radiators eject heat not into the atmosphere, but as infra-red radiation, in-game that translates to "erasing X amount of heat". The sun directly heats surfaces (in the game's case, the radiators) depending on their radiation absorbent coefficient for an amount of radiation given off by the star, and the star emits a large gradient of radiation from radio waves to gamma rays, but infra-red is still the most energy heavy frequency so a radiation radiator that tries to gain heat from the sun would do well to use a material that absorbs that type of radiation. It also just happens to be the same sort of stuff that naturally radiates out of all objects (infra red radiation) so a material that absorbs infra-red also emits it much more efficiently if you want to cool stuff in space. Convection is the exact same as you holding a hot cup of tea, the heat undergoes convection from the hot water into the cup and then from the cup into your hand. I have written this because your comment hints at a lack of understanding in the subject. tl;dr - Convection only works with an atmosphere and is reliant on the atmospheric condition of said atmosphere, radiation works in both atmosphere and vacuum the exact same way but is also affected by convection, if to a much lesser degree than a dedicated convection radiator.

[@cowsareevil7514]

Convection requires an atmosphere. Mars is very low pressure, so the game might treat it as a vacuum the same as the moon. I didn't do any tests to find what pressure they change from from one to the other.

[@Xuhybrid]

@@ScarletFlames1 "The internal atmospheres of devices and items now radiate energy down toward the planet's global atmosphere temperature." This statement alone tells me it's not just ejecting heat like it would in reality.

[@Xuhybrid]

@@cowsareevil7514 No idea to be honest, would be interesting to see how radiation works compared between all the default planet settings. I'd assume 20kpa is probably around the right point.

[@dan7rex]

I would love to see how you manage the winterspawn cooling. I keep killing mine with over or under temps.

[@engimage]

With the vacuum rooms forcing radiation, how about vacuum frame radiation conditioners? I mean just putting hot gas into pipes with radiators (not convection) - will the gas cool down and to what extent?

[@cowsareevil7514]

It will only cool to the outside temperature. So just less efficient than putting radiators outside.

[@WolvesPlaysGames]

How about a stirling engine in between a extensible radiator and a convection radiator?

[@cowsareevil7514]

If you can generate enough heating and cooling it would work.

[@Quinge29871]

Okay, that is broken but at least the cost of a large radiator is justified now. Each one needs 5 stellite glass to construct if you don't have an auth-tool handy.

[@cowsareevil7514]

LOL, magic isn't cheap.

[@nugget7236]

Tried to recreate the large rad setup on Mars but ran into the issue of the room cooling too much at night and not heating very much at day I even did ic to close the rad at night unfortunately that didn't seem to help

[@GoldenDragonic]

you need close windows too

[@rawfonossonofwar6021]

Cold pipe in block without heating pipe in block make any difference? The way I read it the block is not changing temp to the atmosphere. Just a thought

[@cowsareevil7514]

No difference. The heat is just deleted, not transferred.

[@jffish5149]

how much power did it cost you to make that one steel?

[@vorgon]

Is the water connection on the furnace a 1-way? Why not just connect the hot water line directly to the furnace to heat the furnace?

[@cowsareevil7514]

Yes. I have tried that in previous furnace designs.

[@sciurusvulgaris2548]

Mmm, some weeks ago (and before) the furnace liquid connector was output only. You were able pump out water but weren't pump in the furnace. But an overheated steam powered steel smelter... that was a real steampunk feeling. :D

[@tinygriffy]

Thanks for this.. I really like that pro guru stuff.. solar powered furnace .. incredible ... they build it you break it .. lmao (a little)

[@cowsareevil7514]

I first week after update is usually a good time to build impossible machines. Then they quickly get patched.

[@GoldenDragonic]

@@cowsareevil7514 it is fun, but solar furnace still work. But you need close radiators and windows at night time.

[@tehhamstah]

My furnace on europa is completely broken as of yesterday. Had it inside a frame, and it was losing heat too rapidly to even make steel - as soon as it got up to temp, it'd drop a few degrees a tick. Took the frame away and sealed the furnace in a small room surrounded by flat walls. That worked the first time, and then the room exploded (I assume because of overpressure, but I wasn't measuring at the time). Tried a second time with a sensor in the room, and then the room just would not heat up at all, and the furnace kept losing temp like it was in the frame. No idea what to do at this point.

[@cowsareevil7514]

Put an active vent in with the furnace. Set it to inward and set the pressure external to about 50. This should stop the room exploding and keep enough pressure to insulate it.

[@tehhamstah]

Thanks, I'll give that a try. Bit frustrating the way it's been changed. I might need to tweak the values that go into the stack to give a bit more temperature leeway to deal with the heat loss.

[@NeilNDMay]

This is exactly what I've been experimenting with. Took some practice but I have my active vent set to keep the "heatsink" room at 100 and it's working really well, as long as you don't heat up the furnace too rapidly. Don't use flat walls. Use composite walls because they seem more resistant to high temperatures. I also have a regulator to top up the room to above 50 if the temperature drops too much. If the room has very low pressure the furnace starts losing heat to the atmosphere as if it was in a vacuum. Also, initially I couldn't figure out why I kept starting fires with this setup. I was forgetting that the ice I was using to prime the furnace sublimates in chutes now that it's not in a frame... so don't do that 🤣

[@tehhamstah]

@@NeilNDMay Ahh - that's where I went wrong. I was using flat walls! Thanks for the tips!

[@voidseeker4394]

Do things catch on fire in the non-oxidating atmosphere?

[@TheLoneWolfling]

Stationeers is going full Monkey's-Paw with their updates it seems. Things sealed inside frames having zero thermal transfer was an overapproximation, but still was a somewhat decent approximation. Whereas now... I have a 25C pipe in the middle of a 25C room and all is well. I seal it inside a frame and suddenly my 25C pipe inside a frame - surrounded by 25C air - starts changing temperature. That's not a decent approximation by any means.

[@cowsareevil7514]

IRL the frame would loose temperature to the outside world so the small loss is reasonable. It is still 100x better than having the furnace in the open.

[@TheLoneWolfling]

@@cowsareevil7514 IRL a frame would lose temperature to _its surroundings_. Which in this case is 25C air, and so the temperature of the pipe would not change as it is already at 25C. Whereas right now it seems like frames lose temperature to _the world atmosphere_. So if I have a base, at 25C, on an inhospitable world... and in the middle of said 25C air,_ surrounded on all sides by said 25C air_, I have a non-sealed frame with a pipe, everything is fine. I seal the frame, and even though the frame is surrounded on all sides by 25C air the temperature of the pipe starts changing _away_ from 25C.

[@sciurusvulgaris2548]

@@TheLoneWolfling Aaand you have a decent but ridiculus way of cooling... "magical intercooler" :p

[@TheLoneWolfling]

@@sciurusvulgaris2548 Exactly.

[@Touay.]

how do they respond when put in shade?

[@cowsareevil7514]

That would be a good experiment.

[@acanadianderg4035]

9:30 Crow, why is that vent covered in black magic?

[@samuraidriver4x4]

Guess the gas moving away from the block is blowing it away

[@XxsniperxelitxomegaxlmaoxOwOxX]

its the same magic that hides everything you need.

[@samuraidriver4x4]

@@XxsniperxelitxomegaxlmaoxOwOxX you mean the automated sorting and storage system?

[@leakyabstraction]

RIP my frame-enclosed perfectly insulated furnace with 100% temperature stability. Though, what is fair is fair...

[@iainburgess8577]

How good is the atmospheric simulation? Would a chimney Work? Because we could create a power tower W waste heat, power turbines & Stirling modules (I think they're in this game, but not sure I got the term right) I've seen atmospheric reaction to heat, but on reflection it doesn't seem to be a thermal convection plume, just a globe shaped pressure differential. Even if just heat won't work, waste heat + waste gasses might.... It wouldn't be a chimney either, so a corridor W atmospheric vents & radiators in a closed end; heat just provides better expansion for better power....

[@iainburgess8577]

Passive vents W one way valves (one of the pipe valve options) may work to fake a power chimney effect without the waste gas

[@BeezyKing99]

with the amount of external pressure on your suit... isn't that breathable... unless the "air" is too toxic?

[@dawudmc]

My base would have melted long ago!

[@eriksolce7000]

They start fixing exploits to make the game a little harder and you can't help but to discover something more broken right after.

[@cowsareevil7514]

No update is ever perfect. I think this will be patched quite quickly so I have to get in while I can.

[@Patrick1985McMahon]

Furnace in a vacuum. How the hell would it lose heat. The room has nothing for the heat to move too. This update makes no sense.

[@zncon]

Black body radiation. It's how anything in the vacuum of space keep from cooking itself.

[@Ltbird]

Black body radiation in the IR spectrum. It's relatively slow compared to conduction/convection but it always occurs.

[@Patrick1985McMahon]

@@Ltbird not at the rate they have in game.

[@cowsareevil7514]

IRL the furnace would radiate heat to the walls of the room and the heat would then be conducted away through the walls. This would be a lot to program so they have emulated it by making the heat vanish in a way that makes physicists cry.

[@TheLoneWolfling]

@@cowsareevil7514 Can confirm; am crying.

[@Xuhybrid]

Why is this thing collecting heat? That has to be a bug what the f...

[@diego-vw2in]

wow i am trying play stationeers, but no luck =( Can you help me with some questions, please? I am playing on Mars. I placed 6 solar panels (3 one side and 3 at the other side) and it stills do not gives me power =( So: 1- How i know what side i have to place the panels? it is giving me only 6% of effectiveness... 2- I can not make water o.O i tried ice crusher, pipes and water filling, but no matters it does not fill the bottles =( ty!!!!

[@mutantbob]

Water must be liquid. Too cold or too hot will not fill. Solar panel efficiency depends on the panel pointing at the sun.

[@Larri1Cruz]

Try to put the panel horizontally, it work better. For water you connect the bottle filler on the power grid?

[@12tanuha21]

The bottle filler need now electricity. Also don't forget to turn it on. Water temperature also need to be between 0° and 100°. Since 3 or 4 patches ago the Ice Crusher warm up the water now to 5° after crushing the ice, so that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

[@diego-vw2in]

thank you for all tips! I forgot to plug eletricity, and did it now. But the power button is flashing and the popup says it has an error. I am using the normal liquid piper. May I use the insulated version? ty!!!!

[@Larri1Cruz]

On Mars you don't need the insulated pipes. Basic layout is, ice crusher, liquid pipe connected to the proper output (inferior one) the you can put a T joint connecting to the liquid tank via tank connector, and the bottle filler. Check the pressure and temp via tablet. And should be working.

[@mwwoggy]

Damn! Do you just come up with these hacks on the spot??? Wouldn't mind seeing just how hot it can actually get before the game breaks.

[@cowsareevil7514]

In my mind this was the obvious thing to do. I am surprised other people havent done it. I did seal one up before connecting a furnace to see if it would get more than 300degrees and it got to about 3500 and was still going just as fast.

[@erumaaro6060]

@@cowsareevil7514 At those temperatures even the insulation would radiate off a crap ton of heat. I wonder if they got the math right: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Radiative_power

[@Larri1Cruz]

is this up do date?

[@mutantbob]

The extendable radiator quirk you exploit in the back half of the video got patched 2022-Sep-7 (much to my disappointment) I think the relevant entry from the patch notes is probably : "Changed Applied a scaling multiplier to solar radiation based on the absolute value of the internal Atmosphere being radiated to Y = 1 / (1 + Pow((X / 450), 3.2) (where X is TemperatureKelvin of internal atmosphere) "

[@TheYaMeZ]

Putting things inside frames/vacuum is still excellent insulation vs just having exposed pipes. Like almost 100x better in the convection vs inside frame example.

[@cowsareevil7514]

Yes it is still very good insulation but a sealed hot room is better. There is some lag as the room heats up but zero heat loss.

[@TheLoneWolfling]

Well, kind of. It's a thermal path to the world, as opposed to a thermal path to the surroundings. Sealing in a 25C pipe in a 25C room is suddenly a terrible idea, for instance.

[@mutantbob]

I I thought the readout said it was convecting from the uninsulated pipe, not radiating.

[@cowsareevil7514]

It will radiate in a vacuum and convect in atmosphere.