Will the Developer Market be Oversaturated in 2025?

[@Matt-m3y-r4u]

It is already oversaturated. When you see a posting for a junior dev role advertised at $18 an hour, in an area where FedEx and Amazon delivery drivers make more than that, when you see over 100 applicants for new postings on LinkedIn within an hour or so, when employers require years of experience + a CS degree for every single new job posting out there ...if that's not oversaturated, an employer's market where the supply (applicants) far exceeds the demand (jobs available), I don't know what to call it.

[@lugebeatzz8747]

A programmer should be good at Computer Science, he can be an average coder(coding skills can improve). I think a good programmer should not be job reliant. Just walk through someone's shop, pitch the idea of improving their business through technology. Then deliver.... Do that 3 times and you'll start making enough to feed you. When you're on your 15th project.... You'll be miles ahead of developers who are relying on a job opening.

[@abstractreality5063]

@@lugebeatzz8747 lol yeah just like that

[@jaehparrk]

era of software jobs is over. physical jobs especially skilled aerospace, ocean ships, outer space, skyscraper construction jobs are billions of jobs

[@perfumegoose]

@@jaehparrk I remember an executive at Decca records told Brian Epstein that groups of guitars are on the way out and didn't sign the Beatles.

[@trumputin8235]

@@jaehparrk bro what are you smoking

[@italktocomputers1901]

As someone who interviews candidates, there are way too many beginners in the field. Competence is rare.

[@simransultan8483]

Can I get a job please or internship

[@devlaunch-online]

Agreed, there is this weird myth of people doing 4 month bootcamp and being job ready

[@C650101]

Been in industry since 95. Never been as bad as now

[@anthonynaut6959]

I believe you

[@rmo9808]

On the brightside theres a hard push for people to enter the trades

[@justinoleary911]

1995 is when this industry was actually exciting

[@ramirorenteria7333]

@@rmo9808I wouldn’t recommend the trades. I worked six years in the trades as a Glazier. The work culture is extremely toxic and so is the surrounding environment where you work. It also takes a huge toll on your body

[@jeremygosok]

​@@rmo9808 trade is not interesting , and dull as well as boring to me, IT is more interesting for me

[@tyxobeats4559]

You know it’s over saturated when KZbinrs are selling courses to help you find a software engineering job

[@pennpenny3824]

Then they want to schedule a meeting to find out how much money you currently make

[@Maxim_Kulakov]

😂

[@iohandle]

It is already oversaturated

[@rendivs]

Yes with 3 months bootcampers 😂

[@rendivs]

@@iohandle what career do you choose then ?

[@rendivs]

@@iohandle that u feel is not saturated?

[@VisionRevealed]

it's only saturated for beginner web developers with zero experience, no one want's to hire a developer who doesn't know how to build a website from zero to finish anymore, you have to upscale your skills to get into the market. I've been in ups and downs, and still haven't got in the job market yet, but I'm determined to do it. I'll build a strong portfolio with real world projects I will build myself (no cheating or copy paste... etc), and then who's gonna refuse to hire me then?

[@rendivs]

@@VisionRevealed nice man, don't let them stop us

[@doriancerutti5331]

In my experience, is it saturated? Yes. Is it saturated with good programmers? Absolutely not🤣 too many ppl are in it for the wrong reasons and give up because it’s hard. So if you enjoy it, trust me you’ll get a job

[@WardofSquid]

This here ☝️. So true

[@devlaunch-online]

Couldn't agree more!

[@mgan59]

We share many sentiments here, great content. I was in NYC during the 2010-2022 era of over-hiring and witnessed much of what you said in the hiring spree. To folks looking to break in, there are still entry level positions. I just hired an entry level dev todo qa/data-quality work, the take home assessment was a little bit of coding but included a writing assignment on the data analysis. Not a leet coding challenge. There are opportunities for folks to get into the industry, just need to level up your skills and show your commitment. Would add the candidates that stood out had solid GitHub projects that they’d built post-boot camp.

[@devlaunch-online]

+1 a lot of people get discouraged, but it is still possible. I remember 5 years ago before Covid I had to beat 200 applicants for my internship

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

There absolutely is an oversaturation. In not just Developer market, but anything and everything IT related. Marketing, Management, Data, Development, etc. They have senior developers applying for junior-mid level roles in Australia. Huge pay cuts too. Time to learn how to use a shovel effectively until...

[@geekygirl648]

Why so? I am also facing same issue but as FREELANCER.

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

@@geekygirl648 Because IT is easy money without physical work. Everyone wants to make money from typing on a keyboard. Generations of dreamers who wanted to be programmers or developers, and now there are too many. Im afraid it will only get much worse with the war in the middle east = cost of everything will go up = companies will further downsize or simply continue giving jobs to india, philipines etc. How is it going freelancing at the moment? Still plenty of work or slow now?

[@geekygirl648]

@@Nova-TechnoLAB Now lot of competition, I had few years gap due to few issues. However I am good in skills and also upskilling myself. Many developers join these freelancing platforms now.

[@mdesnica]

@@Nova-TechnoLAB Sometimes freelancing can be easier, since the company does not have attachments and can easier "hire and fire" consultants. For me its a good thing, since i prefer idle time, in between. I just quit an employment to take up freelancing again. You are more free as freelancer and they respect you more at work.

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

@@mdesnica Same here. I quit my robotic corporate job which paid well but was crushing my entire reason for existing as a human being. *Sorry, i truly HATE the corporate world and their "business language", literally 99% of corporates are snakes/legal gangsters* How, where, are you getting freelance gigs? Apart from Fiverr and other dirt cheap oversaturated platforms, where? how? Nobody ever mentions or teaches this. Please

[@glennadams8833]

Stefan is right on this, that it's not about saturation of developers taking few jobs. My take is it's more about the web dev tech industry having reached it's peak about 5 years ago. AI is their hail mary pass to stay relevant, and dramatically lower labor costs. I've watched these cycles over 40 years now. It's the same game. Big tech is facing massive headwinds to its revenue models and so the first thing to go are the labor perks followed by high paying cushy jobs. The trick is to ride all this out, if you really like what you do, or prepare yourselves to go into something else. Saw at least two of these cycles in Silicon Valley in the 1980s and 1990s, then pharma in the 2000s. Watch for other signs: laying offs out one door and new (cheaper) hires coming in another door...at the same time; belt tightening metaphors from the CEO; Management calls to reinvent, innovate and so on; and lastly a merging/buying frenzy where they absorb the products and fire the supporting tech staff. All this is to boost share value at the expense of the brain trust.

[@raybbaby]

Yes, yes it will be. It already is in fact. Ask somebody who works in software development. Massive layoffs this last year.

[@freddiecrumb77]

never stop doing these things, Stefan!

[@jsteel_]

I hire for a mid sized IT team including developers. We get hundreds and hundreds of candidates each time, using one platform, and as a midsize company we are not in the upper pay range. The market is still oversaturated. I also like to add to anybody who is thinking about using AI to respond to recruiter emails or as a co-pilot during an interview, don't do it. It's obvious and no matter your skill if you do that during an interview with me I automatically pass. I'm not there to talk to chat GPT, I'm there to talk to you. Finally, AI is an absolute game changer in software development especially with frameworks like react. There isn't any need for us to hire a full-time front-end web developer. I recommend if you want to get a development you go full stack or back end, you constantly learn and update your portfolio, and be willing to do more than just development.

[@_pheax]

Thx for your time and advices.

[@StefanMischook]

No worries!

[@sebastercats6123]

The worst thing is still those stupid "ghost jobs", can't believe companies are purposefully using algorithms so they can find the best developers to take advantage of. The market may have statistics to show how the tech job market is, but the reality is more competitive than expected. My advice is to not bother with it and focus on your own projects or better yet, collaborative open-source projects. Community beats companies in every way.

[@FellTheSky]

I can assure that is affecting people with skill and talent. I work at a bank, you wouldn't believe the kind of people we are recruiting for less than 100k per year. I'm talking 10 years + of uninterrupted experience (microservices, AWS, kafka, the "new stack"). These kind of people were out of reach for us previously, as we're not a huge investment bank. These guys used to cost double at least (and it was difficult to keep them happy with our "boring projects" ). Now days we have PILES of resumes with these guys, and often get emails or linked messages asking for previous and new job openings.

[@paulholsters7932]

I used to be sceptic about AI, but now I changed. AI helps us to create better tools with more capabilities that will makes us all more productive, not only developers but also testers, analists etc. Of course I am sceptic when people make claims AI will replace people. If that happens every job will be replaced, and why worry about that since in this situation everybody is out of a job. It would mean a complete new world order. There is no preparing for this situation.

[@dbsirius]

AI has increased software engineer's work loads. A report i read said 70% of engineers they asked reported this issue.

[@paulholsters7932]

Yes more productive and more workload is a perfectly possible combination.

[@salisali-h5f]

AI hasn’t yet replaced all these people, but it has already reduced the resource needs for projects.

[@lalosalamanca1208]

Holy smokes these poor people in the comments. 😭 I’m sorry you’re struggling out there. You got this 🤘🏽

[@ChristinaZarahMacMullen-ge9ev]

You’re right, a boxer won’t become a good boxer or win a championship by practicing all the time and not getting in the ring.

[@567saturn]

The fact that people talk so much about oversaturation means that it is happening. I may not be oversaturated in 2025 but eventually in will oversaturate

[@StefanMischook]

True and eventually the sun will blow up. ☀️

[@devlaunch-online]

But the truth is, programmers will always be needed, we won't ever walk away from software

[@benlaceyseniordev]

In my opinion, more amateurs will only highlight the need for quality developers who know how to write secure and scalable solutions. I had such a poor experience in the recruitment market that I went back to self employment and made my own opportunities rather than working to build someone else's dream.

[@devlaunch-online]

Hats off to you!

[@marshax]

The "beer goggles" analogy is brilliant.

[@thomaswesleyscott4555]

Even if there is or was a downturn, it's still one of the industries that has (in my opinion) the best combination of low barrier to entry, high starting salary, and has great room for growth. Hustle, learn (coding and soft skills), network, apply - you can do it!

[@StefanMischook]

Couldn't agree more!

[@jakeleone8944]

There has been a downturn, and massive. I have a job, with ultimately unsustainable lowered salary. And it is only a contract job. But that was after a year of looking for a job. And I have 30 years of experience. And 15 years, in everything employers say they are looking for. The way you can tell if the market is not saturated? That happens when employers are willing to take on people with limited experience in specific areas they need, but are willing to train people. Those kind of tech jobs have all disappeared. Hence, even when you have decades of experience, if you are not willing to work 30-40$/hr (or less), it is hard to find a job. Now, the nepotistic hiring is rampant, so if you know someone or have an afiliation, you have a much better chance. And, that afiliation might allow you to assume a role you are not qualified for, but needs to be filled (AI/Security/Devops). I have never experienced anything like this downturn. I have massively good reccomendations from last manager (of 5 years). And several other employees. But as one co-worker said, the downturn is being used to replace expensive U.S. workers with those in say, India. So I will keep training, but I am convinced, all the training I do will not really pay off. I was hired because a co-worker has created a start-up, and he has worked with me for several years. And I will tell you, if you are thinking about a programming career, forget about it. Learn a trade that has some government protection, for example medicine. And the protection comes in the form of licensing after, in some cases, only 2-years of training. And those jobs are union protected, with a pension (in many cases).

[@albertusmeiring]

@@thomaswesleyscott4555 yes that's true.

[@pachitopacho158]

​@@StefanMischook How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@uwotm8634]

​@@pachitopacho158It's not easy, you need to be highly qualified to get a remote job in the US. You're better off working for an indian company because a lot of US jobs get outsourced to india anyways

[@iorch82]

It's so over for software engineering. I am sorry for all that people that grinded brutally just to join the market now.

[@jamesgabbitus]

I graduated from my masters degree in software engineering in 2021 - I applied for jobs for over a year and got nothing. I eventually got a 6 month internship, they didn't keep me on after my contract due to financial reasons. Even with that experience it didn't get any easier and I eventually gave up. The entry market is ridiculous

[@HeyDudeWheresTheFood]

@@jamesgabbitus what do you do now, still tech related or something else?

[@jamesgabbitus]

@@HeyDudeWheresTheFood i'm unemployed 😂 in the meantime i qualified as a teacher but im still working out what i want to do

[@Qefx]

Its not over, but many many companies will off shore, even more now. AND NO! Indian bad hmmkay! Doesnt work anymore. They catched up.

[@saulvera5469]

Developers need to understand they got to learn other things beside coding to get seen even, like how to make a resume, a good LinkedIn page, 0 bad rep on your socials, how to talk and connect with people, I've known developers getting hired before solving a technical problem ,why? Because they don't care if you can code or not, most of the time, you'll still need to learn the language their using anyway, so their focus is who they are hiring as a person.

[@TyronneRatcliff]

Great insight. AI powered tools like Gemini and ChatGPT won't replace programmers but they are great for explaining coding concepts and creating boilerplate code.

[@elainemuhombe7579]

Good advice for upcoming developers

'AI will not replace developers' - AGREE 'AI is now making you 10 to 20% more productive' - DISAGREE On the second point, it's probably more like 10 to 20 TIMES more productive. Now I can start entire apps by myself in weeks. The barriers to entry are basically gone, when they were much higher several years ago. Before that it would have taken me months to a year with a specialized team to make the same app. AI is tremendous. It is like the tractor was to the farming industry. Or more like the GUI to the command line terminal. It is the future of software growth, and traditional fields in software will not die out but will become more like standard 9 to 5 jobs and much less in-demand by companies and consumers. The sexy techie jobs we saw influencers post about back in 2015 was a fluke of history. They are now or will soon be just cubicle workers.

[@gabrielbarrantes6946]

Today I have an interview for a devops/test role, wish me luck.

[@StefanMischook]

Good luck!!!

[@spythere]

How did it go?

[@gabrielbarrantes6946]

@@spythere got rejected on the second round, they asked random Linux commands that I haven't used in a while so couldn't remember the syntax, they decided that I don't know Linux good enough despite being working on it for over 7 years lol... Is the only interview I have had in months and they didn't want to talk the projects I worked on, two Chinese guys with really crappy English just wanted me to type commands on the spot to pass their interview... I would like to think I dodged a bullet but I haven't worked in almost 3 years (due to health issues) and is getting really bad financially

[@gabrielbarrantes6946]

@@spythere got rejected on the second round, a couple of Chinese guys that barely speak any english asked random Linux commands that I couldn't just type because I haven't use them in a while... Somehow all my experience, contributions to open source and personal projects got completely overlooked and ignored... It sucks.

[@devlaunch-online]

@@gabrielbarrantes6946 Don't get discouraged, there is always another try! Still your resume is getting responses, so it's just a matter of time! A good devops is something a company can't live without.

[@RespectTheYup]

Always insightful

[@mjay5222]

This man is the GOAT!

[@sovietwarmachine1979]

"Just avoid Ruby". Me, chuckling while building a Ruby on Rails project after picking up Ruby as my 5th programming language so far

[@giotti333]

It is more than just oversaturated, it lacks a future. The endless money and low interest rates are over, the buying power of the masses is over, and innovation is nearly also over. The IT industry produces many unneeded, not sellable things at an equal rate as it did before 2022, but now the market does not tolerate that. So yes, it is oversaturated because there is no money from investors or consumers, so there is no need for their skills. The problem is more complex than overhiring. It just adds more saturation to the job market. When will it be better? When the interest rates decrease to 2018 levels, consumers spend more than in 2019.

[@jakeleone8944]

Currently, we give a 15% tax discount to hire a foreign student over a local student. We need to extend that same discount to all students and the tech unemployed. One advantage that you will see in an under-saturated market, is that employers will offer training. That has stopped, unless of course you have a nepotistic affiliation with the hiring manager. The 15% tax discount would be part of an apprenticeship program, if the employee leaves early, they pay back the 15% discount. This could be a 3-year program. And would remove the barrier that exists to hiring locals. And the preference to hire foreign workers that are often trapped in a long visa and Green Card process. That's what we need people. Just equal treatment when applying for a jobs. It's not there for U.S. workers in their own country. And you can see this played out in DOJ vs Facebook 2020 and Apple 2023, just go read the indictments at the USDOJ.

[@pachitopacho158]

How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@jakeleone8944]

@@pachitopacho158 In an ideal world, it should be. But over there they have have a huge pool of existing developers, and they are desparate, so first off, you probably need a friend over there to get you in. And you are competing with a huge number who will commute to office. There are also may be some prejudicial barriers. There was an American who went to India (it is documented in the show 30-days) and tried to get his old job back (customer support). But was told "You don't understand the business in India", even though he had perfect English and many years of experience.

[@jakeleone8944]

@@pachitopacho158 I think you should try, but keep in mind they can discriminate against you, simply because you are foreign. Obviously, you will take a huge cut in pay, and will have to work for less than minimum wage. But you have every right to try and sell your services remotely to India. But I don't think you will any success, for many reasons having nothing to do with your skill level.

[@islandofdoctormoreau]

Honestly they need to fucking ban that. America first

[@lil8579]

I am sorry but companies and government needs to prioritize U.S citizens, there is no need for U.S citizens to get displaced

[@ATFstein]

There’s also zero evidence to suggest that they were hiring people that didn’t know what they were doing. There’s no way to quantify that the truth is that they had a ton of money coming in because of low interest rates so they were spending a lot. They hired a lot of people, and then when the interest rates went up, they got rid of a bunch of people happens all the time it has nothing to do with whether or not they were qualified

[@gabrielbarrantes6946]

I saw many unqualified hires...

[@ATFstein]

@@gabrielbarrantes6946 One person seeing some unqualified hires is not indicative of an entire populace and obviously you’re aware that when a sample size is very small it doesn’t dis allow for the inclusion of chance and errors in the data. The sample size has to be substantial enough that it removes the inclusion of possible That’s not how that works. My whole point is the claim that he made he states it as fact, as if based on data there is no data to back that up zero person experience is not data because even if you saw 50 unqualified hires, you’re talking about 50 out of what a few hundred thousand people you can’t make claims like that and put it out as if it’s substantiated without it being based on data. Anyone in tech should know that.

[@LuckyPkerz]

For juniors it has already been saturated for the last couple years, and it won't get easier.

[@salisali-h5f]

Even if the economic and geopolitical situation improves, the state of the IT market is irreversible; it will never return to how it was before. The factor of AI plays a role as significant as the first two in this crisis; although AI has not yet fully replaced developers and other engineers, it has reduced the need for resources in projects by half or even by a third.

[@neugey]

Worst case scenario: no jobs or a bunch of Ruby jobs?

[@katzhunter4473]

And what’s wrong with Ruby?

[@pachitopacho158]

How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@existentialism_01]

@@pachitopacho158 maybe get experience with freelance? participate in open source projects? build up portfolio and experience ?

[@helpdesk9535]

The market won't recover especially with the Web Dev jobs. Think about it. Before big companies like Facebook/Amazon were developing the platforms. Now it's just maintenance(less work). They focus on VR and other things. Plus big companies outsources a lot to Asian countries. Plus AI helps developers be more productive which means less workforce. And for a few years the market did not recover still. Any more signs?

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

Its true man. Even with web dev, like how much more can a website improve really? Its the same crap over and over, front enders fussing over stupid details, when consumers just want something that works, for free, to use in 1 minute and then go watch Netflix while eating pizza.

[@devlaunch-online]

Yeah, in all companies I worked in, front end devs to backend devs ratio is like 1:10

[@toddboothbee1361]

Seems like you just got back from Florida, and already you must be preparing to go back. Years are beginng to pass me like weeks used to. This is a sure sign I'm getting old.

[@StefanMischook]

Yes ... it is all relative: when you were 10 years old, a year felt like forever, because it was 10% of your life. At 50, a year is just 1/50th ... so it doesn't seem so long.

[@pedroserapio8075]

Uncle Stefan survived the impact that killed a big part of the dinosaurs. Do we need a better example?

[@judewestburner]

I'm glad you've said this. It's been an interesting observation over the past 5 years to see so many people with insanely less experience (and let's be fair ABILITY) than me get jobs for insane salaries. I just knew to bide my time and watch this thing collapse and it now finally has. I have not been a single day out of work since '98 and have worked steady to this day. Many of those folk will not get re-hired as they shouldn't have been there in the first place, and those that should've been there, still are.

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

Yes and no bro. Yes and no. Possibly depends where you live too. Without divulging which company exactly, but could you point the strugglers in the right direction? As in which fields/companies are solid long term etc. *hope that makes sense

[@judewestburner]

@@Nova-TechnoLAB Absolutely! I wish NO ONE ill will, but at the same time I'm sick of chancers polluting what should be a competent-professional field thinking it's an easy option with great riches. The trick is pretty much the same as any job, get in on the bottom run of the ladder wherever you can, possibly not even directly in programming but something like network admin or support or testing. You can find programming opportunities within those roles from writing automation scripts to something more cool like EDI transactions or data manipulation. With that you then have a track record for the next position you do, and really make a highlight of that work on your resume. You'll be fine man!

[@LifeWithRilla]

The people who think it’s over saturated are the people who give up in about 12 months of not finding work lol. So, I’m glad to see people think so. More room for us who have time to wait it out. Let the pessimists lose faith.

[@thomaslecoz8251]

"The people who think it’s over saturated are the people who give up in about 12 months of not finding work lol." What is your definition of "over satured" is not being able to find a job in one year is not a sign of over saturation ?

[@LifeWithRilla]

@@thomaslecoz8251 If you think it’s over saturated simply because there has been a temporary decrease in jobs because the federal reserve increased interest rates and companies slowed their hiring then you haven’t been in the industry very long and it shows. This is the standard cadence every economic cycle. Yes, it’s saturated for new developers & you’ll have to network to find opportunities. It’s not saturated for Senior Engineers. But, I’m glad newer engineers are finding it difficult to be honest. It leaves room for those who are truly dedicated and when the next hiring cycle starts the industry will be back to searching for people to bring onboard. Those engineers who have up won’t be up to skill with the changes that occurred over the last 2 years because they gave up leaving room for those of us who continued learning and applying ourselves. Survival of the fittest at its finest right

[@LifeWithRilla]

@@thomaslecoz8251 pessimists never win at life

[@TheFullstackbro]

AI is just a tool that will help developers be 10x more productive. Also, the job market is oversaturated with the wrong candidates.

[@devlaunch-online]

True!

[@rommellagera8543]

You must also look at market value, before pandemic investors value tech companies with high number of tech employees, but 2 things happened that changed investors favor: 1. Elon Musk Twitter saga, with the elimination of more than half tech employees 2. AI It is common to hear companies layoff tech employees because of AI and investors seem to like it, but we know AI for coding is not here yet, from what I see they are pushing jobs offshore where they underpay developers, like 25K for Senior Devs

[@devlaunch-online]

This will be a trend until a lot of bad code is produced and seniors will need to come in and fix this

[@albertmwai5925]

hello Stef, awesome take on this matter. I'm looking for freelance oportunities, to up my game; any idea on where I can get some? thanks as always

[@devlaunch-online]

Linkedin -> target specific people with specific problems, small business owners for websites, startups for optimisations etc. If you can make somebody's web app faster by 30 seconds, tell them how much moeny it makes them.

[@TheJacrespo]

It is the best market for tech solopreneurship, but the worst ever if you are a tech job seeker.

[@ImmortalStrike-ed5dc]

Sure, previous innovations lead to vast improvements in productivity in the past but also allowed for a boom in companies because the internet was at its infancy. Most things of significance are built now. AI Increases in productivity wont lead to more big companies unless we have another technological advance (unlikely). Just look at what Klarna is doing, slashing jobs left and right while innovating fast.

[@devlaunch-online]

People used to say everything was invented 100 years ago lol. People will always want things faster and better.

[@ImmortalStrike-ed5dc]

@@devlaunch-online also creative work was never offloaded. With AI it is being offloaded. This is totally different

[@ghostly123-w4u]

I would say it makes me ten times more productive

[@StefanMischook]

Nice! Why kind of development do you do?

[@ghostly123-w4u]

@@StefanMischook all kinds, next js with any and everything. I can make features and trouble shoot extremely fast, ive gotten ten years of work done just this year all on my own for my company that I run solo founder

[@lostinthenarrativve]

Hey Uncle Stef, what's the most effective way to learn JavaScript if there's no prior programming knowledge?

[@StefanMischook]

My interactive course! :) school.studioweb.com/store/course/javascript_foundations

[@laszlotimar6701]

Why avoid Ruby??

[@kaihusravnajmiddinov5413]

Hey uncle Stefan, I don't like python. What should I do ?

[@StefanMischook]

Choose another programming language. No big deal. But ... don't confuse something being hard, with not liking it. I don't know if that's you, but something to keep in mind. Once you get really comfortable with writing code, the languages will become much less important to you.

[@kaihusravnajmiddinov5413]

@@StefanMischook thanks :) I understand. I am somewhat good at C#. That was joke though true. I am thinking of a project that could be profitable in post Soviet region. Though it needs some finances and team. A relatively complex one. It's not gonna bring 100K per month/country, but still can be quiet profitable if scaled in several countries. If you know some smart investors (with IT backgrounds) and you find reasons to check this out let me know. Otherwise, thank you for your videos. Seeing dev people on KZbin is always a pleasure.

[@aleksandarstanisic1848]

Ty Stef ❤

[@SXsoft99]

The market was not oversaturated because of the self taught and the people that were coming from university. The market is just filled of "retrained" people in bootcamps, that on one hand they wanted a better job just didn't want to do the time or had any real interest in tech except for the money

[@pachitopacho158]

How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@georgesmith3022]

Big enterprises use java or c#. In the company i work for they still use cobol in some sectors

[@StefanMischook]

Yep.

[@j-p-d-e-v]

Web Development might oversaturate soon specially in the frontend since most of the incoming devs focuses on Javascript.

[@devlaunch-online]

Already kind of is over saturated, 90% of self learners are using Javascript

[@aniss111]

Hi , In a previous video you said that Java is used in big companies unlike php, is this still true in 2024?

[@ZettaiKatsu2013]

Yes it is still true. It will be there for a while.

[@StefanMischook]

Java is big business mostly and PHP SMB … but it is creeping into big these days.

[@albertusmeiring]

Yes, Netflix just went from Java 11 to Java 17 and saw 23% performance increase.

[@aniss111]

Oh great, what do you recommend I learn for backend in 2024? Java spring boot or php laravel​@@StefanMischook

[@neomangeo7822]

Depends where you live. I'm in UK and the vast majority of medium-large company jobs are C# or Java. Some node and php here and there. There is also a fair amount of frontend jobs in JS frameworks like React/Angular/Vue, but that space is very competitive (probably because it has a lower barrier to entry, less demand for knowledge on algos, design patterns etc, and there are also a billion youtube tutorials on react/angular/vue etc, probably because it is quick and easier to show visible results from your code, compared to backend and I think backend needs more upfront knowledge). Freelance website work wise, there is a lot more PHP there due to lots of legacy stuff being around still, and also wordpress being a major player in that space. The best thing to do really is to do your research - look at a ton of job websites and see what things are like in your area.

[@neopabo]

There's no jobs- however, it is a stupidly good opportunity to start a software business/startup. You can hire people for close to free, as long as you yourself know what you're doing.

[@neopabo]

& you need less people because of AI. All your team needs is high executive ability

[@lil8579]

To many people coming here to study STEM this has cause the saturation everyone wants the six figures that thanks to the pandemic influencers and the course sellers that started to promote that idea of easy six figures

[@contasemperfil]

good vid

[@Bjorn808]

Did you mention at the end that self taught programmers are not getting hired anymore or I understood wrong ?

[@jurycould4275]

Disagree. Tech was saturated before the pandemic. Low hanging fruits have been picked. Web development is pretty much dead. No more startups. What remains is maintenance work. It’s back to the basics from here on out: telecom, aerospace, transportation, healthcare and military. I transitioned from SRE/Backend into embedded in aerospace a little over a year ago. Very hard. But that’s just the reality of high interest rates.

[@FilthySnob]

are you stupid or what?

[@ajaysihota2299]

Web development dead? Lol

[@jurycould4275]

@@ajaysihota2299 Don‘t worry about it. You‘ll be fine.

[@LongJourneys]

Web dev is certainly more difficult to get into than it used to be, but it's far from dead.

[@jurycould4275]

Don’t worry about it. You‘ll be fine.

[@thomaslecoz8251]

as a professionnal developer (I started in 2003) , I'm quite afraid by AI. If AI can do a project once, there is no need anymore to get a maintainable/readable project ; for every update you can ask the AI to build a fresh new app from scratch. It reduce the complexity of the process a lot if you do that from an AI point of view. It's only a waste of time and effort for humans, not for AI.

[@Gornius]

This approach is so stupid. It sounds like sorting an array with AI assisted bogosort.

[@paulholsters7932]

@@thomaslecoz8251 how can a developer started in 2003 be so intimidated by AI? Get a grip man! If Ai can do what you are afraid of it can replace any job. Why worry about such a scenario?

[@ZAcharyIndy]

2003? And you still afraid of AI? Only beginners afraid of AI 😂

[@frogfrog8130]

You are completly right about AI. All this people are just cope and hope. But when AI will replace programers it will replace all jobs one by one.

[@thomaslecoz8251]

@@paulholsters7932 the last AI from openAI is able to write a better code than 93% of humans in the context of the olympiad of informatic. 4 months ago, it was only 11% . Yes, i m worried about it. AI become smart faster than i do

[@mdiaz00147]

Why should we avoid ruby ? :(

[@StefanMischook]

It's just a running joke of mine.

[@ATFstein]

There is actually not a downturn in hiring they’re hiring more software engineers than they have at any point in the last three years people get confused when they talked about the layoffs first of all most of those layoffs weren’t even developers of all there were way more people getting hired there were people getting laid off way morepeople think that the layoffs somehow meant that there was some kind of weird freeze and hiring their hiring more people than they have before layoffs

[@dvdragon]

Drunk on low interest rates. 😅

[@kristianlavigne8270]

I will only get exponentially worse from here until enough devs have given up and exited this dystopia 😅

[@pachitopacho158]

How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@FubaricusMaximus]

How much of a factor is Section 174 (US tax laws about how development expenses can be amortized)?

[@StefanMischook]

You'd have to speak to a US book keeper or accountant about that. Although ChatGPT will probably give you the answer!

[@CyranicalGoated]

Uncle stef, why do hate Ruby as a programming language?

[@StefanMischook]

Not at all.

[@CyranicalGoated]

@@StefanMischook Why do you always advise developers to stay away from it then?

[@dd3715]

Jevons paradox

[@youngloenoe]

There is always someone in India that can do it for cheaper.

[@pablom8854]

Then people should start investing money and creating jobs instead of oversaturating the job market. People in the US live in tutorial mode and still are complaining about a oversaturated market. You have easy access to credits, vc investments, many well paid jobs, start moving your f-ing ()().

[@haljco]

Ruby and Rails are the best

[@Victor-v1q]

What about the INFOSEC sector? And DevSecOps? This is trending?

[@aaronbono4688]

I have to say I agree with everything you say here except about how hard SQL is. That language is the most straightforward simplest and most elegant language I have ever seen and I've seen a number of them. You just have to follow a fairly simple formula to building queries and you can build queries that join many tables, do aggregations, subqueries, etc. it's just like you say you got to practice and practice and practice it and you get really good at it. My guess is you just haven't practiced enough yet :) .

[@filip5150]

SQL is easy to understand and start with but hard to master when you are dealing with data projects requiring complex data transformations, performance and cost effectiveness. But yeah the running joke about frontend web devs is "Why frontend devs sit separately at the cafeteria? Because they can't join tables" ;)

[@devlaunch-online]

@@filip5150 When you get information from your manager that the SQL query you run cost the company 10k$, that's when you learn to write efficient SQL

[@VizualeyezProductns]

I don't care how oversaturated it is. I'm going to get a job!

[@arczi4753]

I’m currently in my third year of Computer Science. Today, my professor told us that PHP is dead and that we should switch to JavaScript because it is the future. I’m unsure what to think about this. Would it be a good idea to dive deeper into learning Symfony or Laravel? I have previously been coding in Spring for six months. I would appreciate your thoughts on this very much. Good video as always!

[@jurycould4275]

Where do you study?

[@trentirvin2008]

What area of development are you looking to work in?

[@gilian2587]

PHP is still used in places. Fortran is still used in places. Even COBOL is used in some places. Javascript is ubiquitous in web development today; sure. The use of a programming language is driven by business needs and once a system has been built; it's a sunk cost -- it's often more expensive to replace a system written in a dinosaur of a language than it is to maintain it.

[@ZettaiKatsu2013]

PHP is a nice language regardless. All the stuff you've mentionned will be around for a while. Don't sweat it. It all depends on the kind of problems you wanna solve with programming. Do you want to work on very performant code ? (C/C++) or on web server side ? (PHP, maybe spring), or play around with DOM (js) ? Or even treat data ? (python). Code is used in all areas of human activity but it's all like writing in a notebook that can perform calculations on its own.

[@paulholsters7932]

If you already know Spring, I, as a PHP/Laravel developer, would advice you to become an expert in it. The mistake I made was jumping to another tech to soon. Of course Laravel is great for full stack development while with Spring Boot you probably need to learn some SPA to be able to create full stack applications. But with Laravel you don't need to - but learning Vue with Laravel is probably something you need to do anyway since SPA is the norm for a lot of business applications I get the feeling. So for now: stick with what you know and become an expert in it. Learning PHP/Laravel afterwards is only going to be easier. And what you can build in PHP/laravel you can also built with SpringBoot/Java so there is no urgent reason to change stack.

[@denniszenanywhere]

The greatest excuse by companies when it comes to non hiring is the lockdown. Hundreds of thousands of that and 3 years after that KZbin vloggers will still use that, not realizing that employers can justify not hiring when vloggers themselves give companies a pass. Ai will be another excuse that companies will use not to hire. Don’t believe the over hiring argument. That was true 2 to 3 years ago.

[@bigbigdog]

I am just waiting for them to repeal Tax Code Section 174.

[@adrian-4767]

bigbigdog what's there on Tax Code Section 174?

[@pachitopacho158]

How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@adrian-4767]

@@pachitopacho158 very, very hard to get a remote job from those places in India.

[@mryup6100]

I don't know, if you find out let me know. He pay would be horrendous though if you're from the USA.​@@pachitopacho158

[@bigbigdog]

@@adrian-4767 All R&D spending (dev jobs) are now taxable. Where as companies used to be able to claim 100% tax credit on R&D spendings.

[@marjanmarkovic988]

It will be same as 2024

[@codybass8873]

Hey Stef. What's the best way to get consistent clients? I'm able to get a few clients here and there but I want to have consistent work. Will it ramp up over time as I build a reputation?

[@StefanMischook]

Exactly. Treat your current clients well because word of mouth is important. Try writing some articles that are geo targeted that will attract business to you. People still search on google. Does that make sense? Keep up the good work.

[@bakytn]

avoid Ruby 😂 That's 100% sir

[@thephpdeve]

Many months later and Uncle Steph still hasnt responded to me about that free one-on-one voice chat for my career guidance.

[@StefanMischook]

What? Fill me in …?

[@pachitopacho158]

​@@StefanMischook How easy or hard it is to get a full stack web development job especially in MERN stack form INDIA . Is it possible to get remote job from USA or Europe in India ?

[@ghassanalkaraan]

@@pachitopacho158 forget it. Web development is not it.

[@nikas1684]

But isn`t it cheaper and extremely faster to train AI to do basic tasks than training a junior developer? Right now AI provides us tools(it is a tool), to do some stuff faster, but the nature of AI is progression. Imagine how far it can go. So i think in 2-3 years from now there will be no benefit for a company to hire a junior developer, instead they can use AI to do the part that juniors do, guided by experienced seniors. Why pay for a junior and risk time and money , when AI can do it for free and in no time?

[@existentialism_01]

so goal is clear. become experienced senior in 2-3 year haha

[@nikas1684]

@@existentialism_01 To do that you have to code the most of your time, lose friends, lose social life , hobbies hahah.

[@devlaunch-online]

Few things: 1. AI is not free; 2. If you share your comapny codebase to AI, then bummer, you just became open source and you can say goodbye to your product 3. Junior dev will become senior dev in some time, so a better return on investment than selling out your entire code base

[@Vee-9902]

hey Stef, what's your issue with Ruby??

[@StefanMischook]

None. Just kidding around. Old joke of mine.

[@Vee-9902]

@@StefanMischook😂cool

[@rendivs]

Ok guys if u want to quit! Do it!! I won't 😉

[@bestopinion9257]

You'll quit later. 🤣

[@benzemamumba]

🤨

[@la-dev]

I came into this field in 2003 and people were saying that every second person is studying CS and it's so saturated. Don't study CS. More that 20 years now in total and nothing happened. You'll always find a bunch of people who just shouting no no and no. Let them beat that music.

[@rendivs]

@@la-dev it is like PHP meme lol

[@benzemamumba]

@@la-dev Studying Computer Science and actually working in Tech is not the same thing.

[@techbeauty2450]

The guy is talking nonsense. The companies DID NOT OVERHIRE, if that was the case, we would not see 1 job eliminated in the US and 2 opened in Mexico and India. Hiring is at all time high, just not in the US. I have both Google and Microsoft on my CV, and struggle to get a new and better job in the US, so that people who lack technical skills are the only ones affected is even bigger nonsense.

[@bigbigdog]

I also heard they posted a lot of new jobs in Brazil and Poland. Basically they outsource all the jobs to all the lower wage countries.

[@KingKikikoi]

Yup my company laid off 180 engineers then outsourced to Poland lol…

[@gerhardruscher5067]

The thing is: 120000 dollars for a junior? Sorry but that is ridiculous.... in europe, the snior earns up to 80000 euros. You really need to be a crack in terms of data sciences, robotics, computer vision or computar visualization to get that kind of monney. So outsourcing is not a surprise. But, he is also right in my opinion. Iff somebody with a degree in mixology tries to do a job of an engineer, grinded leetcode, which basically is a compacted version of a bachelors cs study at a university..... in comparation those from the university had the chance to also get experience with lets say machine learning or internet algorithm in courses.... welllllll and in their homework always tailoring algorithms then...... (and i think, are the better engineers).... his has a big point.

[@techbeauty2450]

@@gerhardruscher5067 I'm European who moved to the US, you are just being salty now. While I could agree new grads salaries have gone out of proportion, even senior salaries are currently stagnating or dropping. I have MS in CS/ML and 10yoe in SWE infra development and am honestly, struggling to find good jobs. I've recently passed Meta interviews (which is not that easy to crack), but no job offer because all US positions are deprioritized, and they decided to hire more in Asia. This means despite good interview performance and knowledge/experience, I was too expensive to hire.

[@denisblack9897]

I noticed it like 7 years ago Crazy dude pretending to know stuff in front of a camera😅

[@antsmasherjack]

Why the hate for Ruby at the end?

[@jakurdav]

meh I'm switching to network engineering

[@C650101]

We need ai longshoreman now.

[@bruhmoment3731]

AI will at the very least change software development from writing code to writing mostly prompts.

[@Anon-tt9rz]

not anytime soon, it generates garbage most of the time, you have to make manual changes always.

[@bruhmoment3731]

@@Anon-tt9rz lol of course you have to always make manual changes. It gets things mostly correct, and then you use your coding knowledge to change stuff until it's exactly what you want. If every time you write a prompt, you only get garbage code, you might wanna get better at prompting. You can't one-shot everything and expect good output. Garbage input gives you garbage code.

[@Anon-tt9rz]

@@bruhmoment3731 the thing is that it produces sub-optimal or outright incorrect code in most cases, it has it's uses but yeah, it would only slow you down if you know the area you code in, it's good mostly for exploratory coding when you learn new things

[@bruhmoment3731]

​@@Anon-tt9rz If you feel like AI generated code always slows you down, you need to improve your prompting skills.

[@Anon-tt9rz]

@@bruhmoment3731 nope, it's just not good enough, not even close

[@rolieadams5502]

Is he joking about avoiding ruby😕I dont understand fr.

[@StefanMischook]

Just kidding. :)

So many negative comments, guys just watch the vid again and try to understand what is he talking about. Just keep learning…

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

Negative comments about the current and future job market & actual reality for majority developers with an oversaturated market even in freelance. Not negative about Stef's video.

@@Nova-TechnoLAB you’re right I commented waaay too late at night yesterday :D

[@Nova-TechnoLAB]

Man, thats all of us on here at 2am hahah All the best.

[@illegalsmirf]

Developer salaries are already far too high. Making 20 times what an actual useful worker does per hour is obscene.

[@gabrielbarrantes6946]

Developing is hard, as opposed to minimum wage jobs.

[@neomangeo7822]

What is "an actual useful worker"?

[@gabrielbarrantes6946]

@@neomangeo7822 they probably mean people doing manual/physical labor... Usually, people that have never done mentally demanding jobs do not realize how taxing is on the body, not to mention the additional damage from barely moving the whole day.

[@illegalsmirf]

@@neomangeo7822 someone who does something useful.

[@neomangeo7822]

@@illegalsmirf Isn't that pretty much what most technology is about - creating something useful in some way?

[@billykotsos4642]

The reasong we here about AI all the time is beacuse a lot of rich people want to be wven richer

[@jasonwelsh417]

"Don't sweat making bugs in your coding" Excuse me, I am off to delete some database tables in prod

[@justinoleary911]

so this is why google eliminated tons of tenured employee's 10-15 years of experience at google, they cant code?

[@StefanMischook]

Don't know. You would have to look into that. It could be Google is shifting focus .. hard to say.

[@vociethe5328]

They have younger developers to fit into that position with lower pay and more energy at work.

[@micbln8967]

Oversaturated, yes - for mediocre people. 1 fo 10 has the skills it needs to become really good. And this 1 person has still a dozen offers he can choose from. the other 9 fight over 1 place where mediocre is enough...

[@devlaunch-online]

this!

[@adamspice9076]

1 Year later AI replaced Stefan :) hehe

[@constantinkwiatkowski1940]

Entry level with 5+ years ? Disgusting

[@toyboatt]

oh no why the ruby hate!? no one was talking about ruby! it's fun, and the odin project was fun!

[@StefanMischook]

Just having fun ....