Stellaris 3.8 Traditions Tier List

[@MontuPlays]

Save 75% on Stellaris and up to 50% on DLC at Humble Bundle and support this channel: www.humblebundle.com/store/stellaris?partner=montuplays Sale Ends 31. July

[@Mrfinch9999]

We need a tier list of tier lists. What tier lists are most important?

[@patrickdostie28]

have you ever played void dweller? because what you said at the end for the expansion tree that you get a -20% on material cost on habitats is absolutely false because you also get a - 20% on influence cost when you complete expansion tree with void dweller as well.

[@normal6969]

Could you tell me some names I should watch if I'm interested in an overall rebalance/additions mod around? I've found Evolved only yet.

[@darkestkhan]

About subterfuge... If we had operation to spread ethic attraction in a certain direction or impact happiness/stability/crime it would be great. Especially if you want to spread your ethic. This would make entire subterfuge tree more attractive. Also one correction about encryption - it makes hostile operation more difficult.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

Screw humble bundle, pretending their political donations are charities.

[@numbertj4730]

I really think that espionage should be the mechanic that should help you break up large alliances and cause chaos in the late game. Far too often I've tried to conquer the galaxy only to find out that I'd have to fight the entire other half of the galaxy to gain complete control.

[@daryariazati1887]

Espionage is great if you've got a cold war situation, especially when you're in a federation. Helped me dominate my Broken Shackles campaign, since all my focus was on diplomacy & politics. Pairs well with psionics, too

[@amaratc]

@@daryariazati1887 what did you do?

[@Pan_Z]

To be fair, that is more or less how politics among developed states works. Massive defensive pacts exist now, and likely will even after humanity reaches the stars.

[@derpidius6306]

​@Pan_Z Its all fun n games going to war with a giga federation, occupying like 2-3 whole empires in a year's time and thinking to yourself 'for an alliance that doesn't want to status quo because -5 relative fleet strength they really suck' ...And then you see the federation fleet with 160k fleet power start pulling up flanked by like 8 30k fleets

[@id01_01]

Adaptability becomes pretty good with Void Dwellers because of the Orbital Prospecting and building slot - you can get an insane number of research habitats from no deposit planets with that!

[@MasterElements]

I agree, Adaptability is a late pick, but a pick for a void dweller playthrough for me.

[@Arbaaltheundefeated]

The pop housing usage is also nice for Void Dwellers, since that could theoretically save you a district or building slot per habitat too, if not on its own then perhaps stacked with another housing use bonus.

[@derpadap7011]

@@Arbaaltheundefeated If you stack communal, Double jointed/Fertile (cyborg and gentetic ascension respectively), Adaptability, and finally balance in the middle (galactic decision) you can get a reduced pop housing usage of 40%. This means you can keep over crowding at bay allowing you to negate the malice of having a bunch of pops on a single habitat. I could cram around 48 pops into a fully upgraded habitat while building only 2 housing districts and not suffering from overcrowding penalties so my pop growth was mostly unaffected. Pop housing reduction is actually incredible for void dwellers so Adaptability ain't a bad pick just in need of a rework (Half of the tree is just mid).

[@Deshiba]

Its also very good for broken ring. Hab boost Housing boost Building slot Less strat upkeep for late game Prospecting All very good

[@Miranda17137]

Adaptability / Void Dwellers / Prospectorium is a fun little combo. You'll get RNG procs which generate rare resources on your worlds; you can then build a Habitat over them and have workers extract those resources rather than just the station.

[@jemal999]

Expansion is First or Never. The extra pop & Growth as stated are GREAT (if taken early), they can help you snowball faster, but I think you glossed over the Influence cost reduction on starbases, which lets you expand faster to gain key systems and secure chokepoints. It is a VERY important part of the tree, and if you're going for a wide / early expansion style, it's a must-have. You don't take Expansion b/c it's got great high end abilities, you take it so that you can expand & snowball faster in the early game.

[@SongokuJidai]

Exactly. Getting to the end of the game with 7 good traditions is just a "win more" scenario. Guaranteeing getting to the end game with 6 great traditions in a decent position is worth giving up the last spot to Expansion imo.

[@duncanharrell5009]

Plus the extra tile per planet is always good, especially when you combine it with MoN and habitation rings, making even size 6 dwarfs into a decent 13 size planet and turn big planets into absolute giants.

[@NuggetWorkshop]

Imperator Protegit F TEIR: 1:24 Versatility 3:13 Adaptability 5:40 Statecraft C TEIR: 9:19 Domination 11:20 Harmony & Synchronicity 15:58 Expansion 19:20 Like Button 19:30 Politics B TEIR: 22:29 Mercantile 25:32 Diplomacy 28:38 Unyielding 32:36 Discovery 36:20 Subterfuge A TEIR: 40:47 Aptitude 44:07 *Synthetic 46:38 *Genetic S TEIR: 48:35 Prosperity 50:48 Supremacy 53:19 *Cybernetic 56:35 *Psionic

[@markfreenick]

Why like button is c their?

[@cheesedie]

bless you my fellow xeno

[@salty156]

Hero

[@a_latyshev]

Chad

[@natocombatgaymosquito]

Expansion is in the C tier? Wtf?

[@JonKru137]

Made it to the secret call out for this GARGANTUAN video. Loved it. I was surprised that I actually agreed with most of your rankings. The biggest surprise for me with the latest updates was that I no longer take discovery and expansion as first and second picks anymore, if I ever pick them at all. The combat advantages from subterfuge has made it a 4th or 5th pick almost regularly. Pretty surprising since I've never played with it aside from testing when it was new. I really hope some traditions get a rework and/or slight buffs to make them more viable. I think every tradition should be at least B tier in theory.

[@pds_iggy7108]

I am so sorry for how soon this will be outdated.

[@BendeBoas]

The Return of The King. Thank you, Montu, for your great content once again. I will use this knowledge to ̶p̶u̶r̶g̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶j̶u̶l̶g̶a̶t̶e̶ make friends with all the nice aliens out there.

[@MontuPlays]

'nice aliens' ??? I'm concerned you're using my knowledge responsibly!

[@BendeBoas]

@@MontuPlays ...Sure 👉👈

[@Mag_ladroth]

The only good xeno is a dead xeno

[@BendeBoas]

Are you doing your part? Service guarantees citizenship.

[@PyroMancer2k]

Unyield -50% upgrade cost has an additional bonus I rarely seen mentioned. Orbital Rings are considered Starbases for cost and thus it reduces their upgrade cost by 50%. Considering it cost a lot of Influence to upgrade them this can be a huge cost saver if you do like me and go Tall putting Rings on all your worlds.

[@araminrain]

I've been waiting for an updated traditions tier list! Thanks so much!

[@owenmcgee891]

A note regarding the reduced building upkeep from Prosperity: The alloy maintenance cost on habitats is assigned to their capital buildings. In other words, the Administrative Operations tradition *reduces habitat upkeep costs*. That can be a LOT of alloys.

[@linguotgr]

Statecraft has bonuses to the right things, but it just isn’t enough in any category. I would argue the tradition could be good if the bonuses just scaled up as the game goes on. Like +25 edict fund per ascension perk, or + 1 leader cap for every embassy you have… just something that makes this the tree that says “you want better leaders? this is clearly the best”. Make it just get wacky bonuses to those “nice but not OP

[@phen0m207]

Are you still planning to make that Leader traits tier list video? I noticed the preview is no longer up.

[@mnyoda6771]

Glad to see you posting again Montu! Missed ya

[@principleshipcoleoid8095]

13:47 fanatic pacifists gang can stack 10 lvl ascentions on every planet. With both leader cap ascentions, Aptitude, Harmony and Domination. Add in cyborgs for the -10% pop size cyborg trait to the mix too...

[@malikto1]

The UI that adds tradition and acension perks is a must have in my playset.

[@CC-ru8pi]

I don't think it's enough to change the placements of any of these traditions, but reducing empire size from pops and planets can be situationally better than they appear at face value due to the way Stellaris additively applies the modifiers: From planets: If you have a large empire, empire size from planets may be between ~20% to ~35% of your total empire size (on the higher end if using Void Dwellers or just spamming habitats). If you take Imperial Perogative for -50% empire size from planets (which also grants a good +2 leader cap bonus), the effect from the Expansion tradition effectively reduces it further by a net 50% (going from 50% base to 25% base). It's not enough to make Expansion worth using later in the game than a very early pick for the +1 pop, but especially for Void Dweller in combination with the finisher, it's pretty nice. From pops: Usually this is the biggest driver of empire size. Pacifists get -15% (fanatic -30%) reduction in empire size due to pops, the Psionic Theory tech provides another -10%, and the Beacon of Liberty civic provides -15%. Combining all of this gets fanatic pacifists with Beacon of Liberty to -55% empire size from pops. Machine empires also get strong bonuses to this (-15% machine empire, -20% OTA updates civic), although they don't get psionic theory tech. Tacking on -10% to the fully bonused fanatic pacifist reductions using either Harmony or Domination is more than twice as effective (net) at reducing empire size than -10% at the baseline level. I actually think, in combination with both traditions' quite good agendas, this can make either/or (or possibly both) quite strong picks for a pacifist build or a machine empire build. In both cases, reduced empire size is effectively an economy boost, since less pops are needed to output the same unity (tradition, edict) and research (tech) results.

[@boencao6553]

I definitely tank harmony higher, the -10% pop size cannot be underestimated, and the leader lifespan span and stability is very good too

[@xangry2834]

same as expansion, harmony scales better with bigger galaxy size. i find reducing empire size more worth while aswell since i always go wide.

[@JacobSteakfries]

Honestly I think Discovery replacing one of the perks with a +1 skill to Archaeology and research anomaly speed would give it a good niche for an early tech rush instead. A good economy will be better for research speed, so the ability to instead benefit from anomalies and digsites faster in the early game would make for a neat strategy and be a bit more interesting IMO.

[@TheKrucifix12]

Thank you so much for this Montu

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

A group of us are doing a Stellaris co-op against the AI for fun soon where our objective is to get one player as the Empress of the Galaxy. I'm doing a Megacorp Trade focused empire probably the Gospel church. What concerns me though is that trade league federations might not feature so does that reduce the effectiveness of this tree? I love Marketplace of Ideas as I tend to go heavy unity builds and would make sure of the clerks/+10% TV buffs, but perhaps it means that Mercantile isn't the obvious first pick I should get and instead should consider Prosperity or Aptitude first?

[@humanhaggis]

Having trouble understanding why harmony is down so low; 5 stability, 10% empire size from pops, 25% ascension effect, -10% pop upkeep, and the special effects of -1 max negative traits and -20% leader upkeep all seem pretty solid to me. For machine empires, you're even saving 1-2 leaders over the course of the game and -3 deviancy per evaluator, which is hugely helpful on rogue servitor eucmenopolises. Sure there isn't any one real game changer, but compared to politics? Politics is a win-more tradition that doesn't really provide much reward. Yes, it increases diplomatic weight, but galactic politics is already unlosable in single player, and in multiplayer inflating your weight just leads to other players forming blocs. And your only reward for playing the galactic politics game is a fraction of your unity refunded and the ability to potentially pass an edict to grant you 10% nav cap. In B-tier, you have mercantile and diplomacy essentially just for a single subset of one empire type. A trade league federation only requires 1 member with both traditions, for every other empire involved they are pretty useless. At the same time, expansion is a full tier lower when every single empire type benefits from it and the specific void dweller build considers it mandatory. As for the individual picks, -10% influence cost means you can rush choke points faster and have better odds of a secure start or of nabbing a unique system, even +1 district is the difference between finding a size 11 guaranteed habitable and a size 16, which I would not call insignificant. As for subterfuge, the tracking and evasion need to be removed. Just like with diplomacy, it feels awful to have to waste an entire tree purely for a single aspect. It feels even worse because it has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the tree and even genocidal empires will feel obliged to take it.

[@Deshiba]

+10% habitability is better than 50% minimum habitability for anything with adjusted living preference. - void dwellers - life seeded - broken ring For these origins it would be a cold hard nerf as all the habitability increases from cybernetic, gene clinics, technologies, etc. Would become completely pointless.

[@Mofock1986]

O_O 1h video montu!

[@MontuPlays]

I know... popped my 1 hour cherry today haha

[@blogovitchxyz]

Every new tier list that comes out, I find that I’ve been playing completely wrong.

[@principleshipcoleoid8095]

Ngl -% empire size stacking can be insane. Under 100 empire size (or even forever at 50) makes ascentions cheap, traditions go brr, and agendas be basically free.

[@Jo-Heike]

Zroni precursor also gives you psi theory.

[@Danteztic]

I don't think I've even once gotten the Zroni as a precursor, though.

[@bobibobibu]

Oh you definitely get Zroni when you're playing fanatic materilist

[@Jo-Heike]

I got it twice in a row now, although I really love biological ascension so I didn't really have that much benefit.

[@Lothyde]

Can you please include the names next to the icons on the tier list? I'm halfway through and I've already forgotten which icons represent which traditions.

[@Zweistein001]

I've been out of the loop for about 6 months. Recently I started a new game. this makes me want to restart that game.

[@IAMELIPHAS]

Part of the reason why Adaptability sucks so badly is because it's literally a dumping ground for mismatched tradition effects they should have stuck in other things to make those trees better. The Opener: Domination (which itself should be renamed 'Administration') and Adaptability's tradition openers should be completely swapped around, as clearing blockers sounds more like an adaptability thing and housing sounds like an Administration thing. Enhanced Recycling: This should already be covered by Prosperity's Administrative Operations. I get the feeling that was going to be the original idea but they dumped it in Adapatility because it was too strong in prosperity as a part of that tradition. Enviornmental Diversification: Literally the only thing in the whole tree that fits the theme. Survival of the Fittest: This is something that really belongs in Unyeilding. Adaptive Ecology: Should be in Prosperity instead of Pursuit of Profit. Appropriation: Another thing that belongs in Administration OR Expansion. Seriously, how exactly is resettling 'Adaptability'? Finisher: Should be a part of Discovery's finisher.

[@Nick-yj6yi]

Thanks for the good video. Did have an idea for increasing tradition cap. You should get an eighth tradition but tie it to the fanatical ethics trait. Example, if your fanatical militarist taking the supremacist tradition should not count against your tradition cap. This could even be applied to some civics.

[@owenmcgee891]

You can also get guaranteed Psionic Theory from a certain story bit in the Toxic God origin.

[@brotheralaric7177]

Me going full militaristic tradiction "Hello Galaxy, i'm going to conquer and destroy every xenos "

[@lcgswolf]

I enjoy every single minute of tier lists!!!!

[@bloodkite1]

Do those 10 good men have climbing spikes? You can't underestimate the value of climbing spikes.

[@andrewleah1983]

Ironically I was falling asleep but I was watching it at twenty past five in the morning.

[@konst80hum]

I made it... Also Health Specialists and Ring and Ecumenopolis modifiers add to the Cloning bonuses.

[@justinthompson6364]

Say, is the leader trait tier list still coming? It’s been a while without news

[@MontuPlays]

yes, It's on the third draft. I had to go back to formula a few times. I'm aiming for the next week or so with release!

[@DJCurry25]

thank you so much for making this content

[@iandick1364]

Operations for Subterfuge... Okay, I don't like planet deletion but I have some ideas. 1. Army infiltration: each enemy unit has a 25% chance to switch allegiance to your empire when triggered, and for 5 years there is another 25% for enemy armies to change allegiance when you land an army. 2. Defenses Sabotaged: 10% of enemy emplacements (eg. starbases, defense platforms) hold fire against your ships. 3. Compromise leader: you receive a small percentage of the target's income. The loss looks like crime to the targeted player. 4. Fund Crime: increases crime and unrest. 5. Support Revolution: a single targeted world gains a metric tone of crime before spawning rebel armies. If the armies win and hold the planet on a timer, the planet becomes an independent empire. Edit: you should also be able to run multiple operations simultaneously but at a reduced speed. Alternatively I'd just like a que we could set up, and the ability to set one operation on permanent repeat.

[@ONAROccasionallyNeedsARestart]

VEGEMITE IS THE BEST! Also, nice to see someone finally agree with me on the Expansion Tradition.

[@fordytude1969]

This was fantastic to listen too however I would have liked to hear how you would have fixed the expansion tradition

[@dynia666666]

Synchronicity its at least A tier for hive mind, discovery also A tier cause its anti rng for research and leader pool, Unyielding also A tier, biology ascendency S tier, cyborg ascendency B tier, machine ascendency A tier, psionic C tier, its worst ascendency in game cause you cant take materialist

[@timothypeterson4781]

"What would make versatility is... +50% growth speed." ... Yes. Yes it would be Montu. (Ok, only 50% for the beginning, but still my point stands.) I actually think Statecraft isn't bad if you're a gestalt (ironically.) If you can surge ahead with a powerful council it can get pretty good (and they're immortal.) Expansion I don't agree with Montu, or disagree with Montu. I value some parts of it a bit differently than him. *Shrugs* Montu: "You know discovery's not the best for research." Me: "Yeah, but I really like anomalies. They make me smile." Espionage, the reason they don't do things like that is because game design is more about avoiding suck moments than giving players fun mechanics in the minutia. (Yes, the game still needs to be fun, but you'll lose more people from rage over espionage (the minuatia) being too powerful, than you will gain from it being more fun.)

[@Luke-mr4ew]

Perhaps it would also be worth hearing how you would nerf S Tier entries to remove autopicks from the game

[@TheCabarro]

"Less penetrable border" eh, sounds about right!

[@hawkenparker1790]

why would I be asleep? I'm learnin'!!!! :D Be well bud!

[@ApostleCobra]

Why is enmity no on here?

[@user-dz6dl3xl6c]

Simply because it wasn't part of the game yet as of patch 3.8. It was added afterwards.

[@HelicopterShownUp]

I guess there is such a thing as a dumb question.

[@ApostleCobra]

​@@HelicopterShownUpHey man my mistake, Im a real person with feelings just like you, and was at the beginning of my delve into this wonderful game. Finally, fuck you!

[@antoineroca1690]

Good traditions are what keeps fiddlers on the roof.

[@DzinkyDzink]

Dear Lizard, How about a technology tier list? Per every level of course.

[@MontuPlays]

You just want me to die right? 🤣

[@DzinkyDzink]

@@MontuPlays Surely your reptilian brain can handle such a menial task!

[@poilboiler]

Which chaos god is the best for forming a covenant with? 🎵"Why don't you try to loosen up, and get a little more Slaaneshi?" 🎵

[@mchristian2142]

Tier lists never get old.

[@MontuPlays]

Except when they get out of date and I have to make a new one!

[@mortache]

​@@MontuPlaysWhich is like every few months haha

[@DzinkyDzink]

They become outdated and thus require a remake. A constant revenue of views.

[@JB-xl2jc]

​@@mortacheSometimes it can happen like, the same day!

[@fastjimmy6167]

But they DO get outdated 😂

[@Jo-Heike]

I am quite fond of the politics tradition, but then again I do enjoy controlling the galactic senate and becoming custodian.

[@desuordie4856]

Diplomacy+Politics+FanEgal can really mess with Galcomm. Just hitting them with all the favours my envoys I've gotten always cracks me up

[@lolmanmagee2785]

yeah i have found it excells in a situation i often find myself in : i control about half the galaxy but there are 1-2 federations a bit too strong for me to break. in this situation politics giving me forced control over the community, specifically to become the custodian or emperor and it is very powerful for breaking the stalemate.

[@slipknottin]

I find it too easy to take control of the galaxy by turning everyone into vassals. Don’t care about my political power when every other empire can only vote if they agree with me

[@YoLo-bb2vc]

the only kind of politics tradition i like is when the AI uses it to try and control the galactic senate as i refuse to join the GS 100% of the time an empire that does this is always putting a target on there back from me lol

[@Ghaltouni]

Not yet

[@Sjoeeblom]

I'd argue the -10% influence cost to build starbases from expansion, if picked early on, is actually quite potent when it is a first or second tradition pick. The reduced influence cost means that you are more likely to grab particularly important systems, such as good habitables and chokepoints, before any opponents which can have a cascading effect on the rest of the game.

[@Slowpoke3x]

Yea it's great honestly getting to systems before your neighbors is basically a cheap war. Especially if you can butter up your neighbors into not attacking you.

[@Slowpoke3x]

If influence was so abundant and quick it wouldn't but much of a perk. But systems, orbital rings, habitats, pacts. You only have so much influence, so reducing the cost has exponential effects.

[@CalebSteele]

Yes, Expansion is S tier when taken early. You can snowball from there. Very important.

[@remipearce597]

I do understand the reasons he said that it's only C tier, but I would also agree expansion is S tier because in strategy games population is by far the best way to snowball, and 3 of the 5 parts of tradition directly make it faster to start that snowball and the faster a snowball starts the more severe of an affect it has, even then the empire size and starbase upkeep options are both useful for reducing the costs of early snowballing with too high tech and tradition cost as well as more energy to spend on upgrading the starbases you have over cap to mass build hydroponics, nebula refinieries, black hole observatories, and solar arrays But yeah colony development speed is okay but kinda meh at best and the agenda is awful (Also for void dwellers it's even more powerful with a massive 20% decrease in habitat costs which early on can mean earlier habitats thrown out meaning you have more resources early on to throw out even more even faster)

[@ducttapeanddreams]

The only time not to take Expansion is if you are a total war empire. Because by the time you even know what your neighbors are even if you have total war enemies around you should have picked your first tradition. And don't underestimate the free pops early, it just puts you ahead and makes your colonies useful that much earlier (or lets you just print pops to resettle)

[@emilsoderman3691]

The -10% influence cost... really is important early on, where influence is pretty much your limiting factor for expansion. It's absolutely a noticeable difference in terms of much real estate you can grab before the AI does.

[@Xiuhtec]

I don't pick expansion very often, but when I do it's almost always for the 10% reduced starbase influence cost first and foremost (which you just sort of handwaved as pointless), then the extra pops/growth speed. If I'm not super constrained by my neighbors, being able to expand 10% faster (as influence is difficult to increase very much, so influence/starbase is the biggest limiter of expansion speed, far more than any economic factors) can be very useful in a huge galaxy.

[@Sephiroth144]

I tend to play wide, so I go Expansion; extra pops and growth speed are great to have, especially when you're getting multiples of that growth. (Plus, the cost reductions for Starbase or Empire sprawl are nice to keep growing.)

[@walkir2662]

yep, extra pops is the insignificant part of expansion to me. But empire size and influence cost? Yes please!

[@xangry2834]

i think expansion scales with size of galaxy you play in. the bigger it is, more crucial it becomes. montu seem to play medium size so he prob doesnt need this bonuses as much but when i play on biggest size, i usually end up going wide and so having expansion is a MUST.

[@girlbuu9403]

Same. Returning to the game after years of absence. Expansion is interesting because I have such a love-hate relationship with it. It really needs to be your first pick for it to be REALLY good, or your second to be okay, and taking it after is just really dumb. That means it is competing with Discovery which he also did a little dirty. Honestly him having it in the B tier might trigger more people than Expansion in the C tier. But that is going off what I remember of the game several patches ago. Depending on the kind of game you are running you might really be hurting for influence. That -10 isn't great but it can mean the difference between nabbing a few systems on the frontier with an empire you don't want to go to war with (yet). If there are no other empires near you it is quite valuable as a means of rapid expansion. Its right there in the name. But you won't really know if your slice of the galaxy is mostly vacant until later. My standard picks for a game WAS Discovery first, the survey speed boost, then Expansion, the -10 influence then the right side if I have colonization options. If not then back to discovery for the science boosting. But that also keeps me from getting my first ascension perk quickly. But it also lets me pick the four or five early game things that will benefit me most at that stage of the game and with all of them the earlier the better. But then technological ascendancy and one vision are great to get as soon as possible too. :| Mostly watching this to see what has changed and if I need to reevaluate.

[@Xiuhtec]

​@@girlbuu9403​ You and I are on the same wavelength for this one. Discovery is almost always an automatic first pick for me because science is just such a key focus in general I'd pretty much always want it to be at least one of my picks just for that, and the survey and anomaly bonuses are basically only valuable taken early so may as well make it first pick. When I do pick expansion it's because while grabbing faster survey speed I discovered I'm not hemmed in too hard and can really get an advantage out of the cheaper influence cost for expansion. The pops on new colonies are a minor bonus compared to just owning so much sheer space this way. I always play on huge though, so might definitely feel otherwise on smaller maps.

[@eklu65]

Leader focused builds stack +% leader experience gain. That +300 experience every single time you launch an agenda actually SCALES with that leader xp bonus, so every time you launch, your leaders can get like 1200-1500 xp. It's actually very strong for leader focused builds, especially if you are a unity build that can churn out agendas.

[@primordial7881]

Does unity generation affect agenda speeds?

[@eklu65]

​@@primordial7881 I don't think so, but it allows you to more easily finish agendas early. 24 months remaining is usually where I start trying to finish early

[@SolazLive]

@@eklu65 Also if you stay under 100 empire size you get a massive reduction in the cost of rushing with unity

[@eklu65]

@@SolazLive I will have to try that

[@juanluisbc6053]

In mid-late if the empire size is very low, you can launch-finish more than one at the same time with a good unity generation, and if you play with a mod for leader cap (the actual one is ridiculous), its a must have that tradition, is S tier directly, having 40 or 50 govs and reducing the empire size with the other trad on them per each level is very good.

[@83athom]

30:00 One addendum I think you forgot about is that the Starbase cost reduction also applies to Orbital Rings and its buildings and modules. That includes the influence cost, which I think is just an oversight.

[@charion4909]

I sure hope it isn't an oversight, because its a major selling point of the tradition for me. Together with the technology which reduces the upgrade cost by 20%, you get a total reduction of 70%. This allowes you to outfit all your planets with full orbital rings relativly early, giving a very nice economic and / or defense boost to your empire.

[@HeavensBane53]

I think Statecraft is actually being underrated here, it has a niche. Because of how strong some agendas are, the agenda speed and duration perks are actually pretty good, moreso than it felt like you gave them credit for. Plus, you yourself talked about how strong leaders are with galactic paragons, and the +300 exp on agenda activation when combined with a bunch of leader exp bonuses can catapult your leaders up in levels quite quickly, and the completion bonuses are actually pretty good as completion bonuses go. It definitely plays second fiddle to aptitude when it comes to leader traditions, but that's also just because aptitude is really damn strong. I actually found a lot of success taking many of the lower tier traditions to stack empire size reduction perks on a fanatic pacifist inward perfection empire and then further offsetting it with large numbers of high level governors bringing down the empire size even farther, which would not have been as effective without statecraft's exp from agendas. Hell, I didn't even know at the time that you could activate agendas early with unity, and that would have accelerated the process even faster.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

Of course it's being underrated. Giving it F Tier is a pathetic joke.

[@wedgeantilles8575]

12:50 - don't you get the additional leader lifespan AND the reduction of negative traits if you are not a necrophage? You made it sound like you get either one OR the other. But since you get both, it is way nicer, no? In general: A new tier list - I love it :D

[@spored932]

Yes, this one was explained wrong. Non-Necrophages get +10 leader lifespan AND -1 maximum negative traits while Necrophages only get increased unity per converted pop.

[@wedgeantilles8575]

@@spored932 I wonder if it should be higher up in this list then.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Edict fund bonuses become insignificant at higher empire sizes. It should be coupled with a % decrease for edicts, whichever gives the biggest bonus at the moment

[@R1ch4rd421]

That’s the whole point of the empire size mechanic. If you get bigger it cost more to run your empire, so you would need more edict fund to fund the same edict than a smaller sized empire

[@rasmuswhittembury6350]

You should invest in a D tier, to give adaptability the respect of not being put in the same tier as statecraft

[@MontuPlays]

I'd accept 'Super F' for statecraft, but yeah...

[@rasmuswhittembury6350]

@@MontuPlays Lol. Atleast adaptability works in max orbital damage reduction meme builds. Statecraft is just... useless... So yeah that works too haha

[@Darlf_Sevil]

​@@rasmuswhittembury6350tell it to my leaders who are on 8 lvl after 40 years of game xd

[@Darlf_Sevil]

​@@rasmuswhittembury6350max orbital meme is dead

[@rasmuswhittembury6350]

@@Darlf_Sevil did the new bombardment changes kill it?

[@FakeSchrodingersCat]

Wait -10% starbase influence cost is nothing special? We play very differently.

[@vasheroo]

Harmony/sync should definitely have some sort of percentage based edict cost reduction. I actually really like having leaders with edict cost reduction and they put this to shame.

[@J0hnzie]

I'm glad they finally put merchant guilds in the glame.

[@GunLut]

Thank you can't wait to watch the new version. I just started playing stellaris again (haven't played since shortly after Mega Corp). I'm having a blast again and the videos are just a great support tool.

[@schwingedeshaehers]

Don't play at the harder difficulty, and choose what you want

[@Max_Maximus_69]

My advice...get out now while you still have a chance! Once you get sucked in your in for 1,000's of hours lol.

[@calderniven8110]

Hey Montu, if you read this, just wanted to say thanks for doing this consistently quality content. Full and comprehensive explanations, comparisons between various options, guide videos etc. Just good stuff. Feels like shooting the breeze with a buddy about the game and I always finish your videos wanting to go try out a new build haha.

[@demonsand]

Hi Montu! I’ve played Stellaris off and on for years but fired it back up again recently and really enjoy what the game has developed into. I’m commenting because I made it to the “secret callout” point, and wanted to let you know that I’ve really enjoyed working my way through your library of videos. Videos like this are really informative, and your multiplayer series are entertaining to watch and pretty funny at times! Keep doing what you’re doing and good luck!

[@l.a.3680]

A new tierlist from montu and its an hour long. Basically christmas.

[@grizzlyreaper7477]

(New player) So...was watching this and felt very sad when I saw harmony so low... I thought I picked well😢

[@SeeAndDreamify]

What makes you say that prosperity is better for science than discovery? Is it just that you can build more labs faster?

[@MasterElements]

I disagree with your placement of Statecraft. Leader cap is so rare that any source is worth it and Dpartmental Efficiency is a great agenda. Some councilor positions can give quite good economic or combat bonus' and bonus experience allows you to get higher level leaders faster, though why Domination has 20% vs statecraft having only 10% is confusing wtf Paradox. The bonus to agenda speed also allows you to cycle those high quality agendas as well like Favored Society and Leadership Conditioning, as well as increasing their duration, your 2 favorites. I do agree that it could see a buff but I think it belongs in the B tier. One thing I think it is missing that you didn't mention is a reduction to agenda cooldown. The empire size reduction from governors in the aptitude should be changed to empire size effect. That way it scales with the game properly.

[@pierreproudhon9008]

Statecraft is a must pick if you're running trade and have the 0.4 trade value per clerk councilor.

[@PyroMancer2k]

Statecraft has become one of my top picks so I'm surprise to see it so low. There are some benefits which I think he is overlooking. 1) +10% Council Agenda speed means you get agendas more quickly. If you go the unity route and wait until the agenda is about 1/2 the way through the unity cost of rushing the agenda drops a lot so the sooner you get to this point the sooner you can activate it. 2) +20% Agenda Length is nice as late game I often have 3+ active agendas going at one time since it's easier to get them overlapping. 3) +1 Council Skill is nice because the +1 Skill bonuses can go over the level 10 cap. Thus you have have a level 10 leader running as effectively a level 11, with bonuses from other sources you can get a total of like +5 for a max leader with effective 15 level though the single +1 from this is only so so. Lastly because leaders are really powerful when used correctly the thing that makes this Tradition one of my top picks is... 4) +300 XP when you complete an Agenda. It doesn't sound like a lot until you realize how XP works on leaders. XP Bonuses apply from ALL sources so if you have enough bonuses for like +100% XP this becomes a +600 XP gain. I often get closer to 200% in leader XP Bonuses so I earn 900 XP per agenda I complete. Plus I'm rushing agendas every 5+ years mid/late game so it becomes easy to power level my leaders. I originally overlooked Statecraft as well until I found out about that XP gain stacking with my Leader XP gain bonuses. There is only one agenda by default that gives you XP to your leaders and it like all other agendas have a 10 year cooldown once it's no longer active. That means you got about 20+ years between it's uses, sure it does have 2000 XP times your modifier but it's not much considering how rarely you get to use it. My new Meta since leaders were add has been to get as many scientist in the Council for research bonuses and the faster I level them up the higher their bonuses become. Late game I often got like +250-280% bonus to research fields. The other leaders are Govs which I focus more on planetary economic bonuses as I've taken to playing Tall so I can keep the empire sprawl penalties low while boosting my R&D bonuses. I've taken to out pacing Grand Admiral AI so much faster then I had in prior versions in both tech and economy going this route.

[@thunderhead9338]

Discovery for me is my "Pick it the moment traditions become available" early game savior. Use it then activate the "Map the Stars" Edict for increased anomaly chance for more research and scientist xp Not to mention the bonuses from said tradition help late game as well with minor but very significant boosts once you have a lot of systems with research stations in them

[@oceandiamond22]

I feel like strongholds and fortresses should reduce collateral damage on the planet. There should be other ways as well, but these buildings are a start

[@markthompson6139]

I like this idea, although maybe limit it to a set amount of pops per building. So a fortress habitat is still an annoying impenetrable wall, but a stronghold on a world prevents it being depopulated because a couple xenomorphs touch down.

[@user-dz6dl3xl6c]

While I wouldn't disagree too much, i think you should emphasize more the usefullness of certain traditions for certain ethics which puts some bottom ranked tiers way higher (or vice versa) if combined with certain common ethics / playstyles. For example, expansion tradition plays in a whole different league as any kind of machine intelligence, especially RS. MI empire size suffers from colony empire size costs and less options to reduce them via civics, so that reduction is very useful, especially when you can colonize every planet instantly and doesn't have the tech/unity output to counteract increased empire size. Don't forget increased empire size hurts alot more if you play low unity playstyles like MI. The extra pop combined with the MI basic +1 pop is especially good as MI empires, especially early haven't the greatest growth and need more pop for basic jobs to get their planets online (e.g. replicator jobs or RS sancturary very efficient artisant drone used for trade surpluss of CG with AI). Depending on how many AI you met early on for first contact bonus influence, every influence counts when trying to beeline to block an AI. If not playing Determined Exterminator, influence early on is most often more scarce then alloys. So it isn't a niche pick as expansion is a very useful pick for MI in general (and maybe some other playstyles too). On the other hand I don't know how you rated subterfuge as B tier. Espionage system itself is very much garbage because not really impactful espionage options. Additionally they have major influence costs which won't get reduced by the tradition (compare it to diplomacy where influence costs are halved which makes a difference when using a couple of agreements). So more or less subterfuge boils down to +5 evade and +10 tracking which isn't worth picking a tradition when there are much more useful traditions out there to achieve the same goal (obviously higher ranked Supremacy, but even picking Domination instead just boost your whole empire that it nets you a miltary tech advantage here and there or a couple more ships which easily outclasses those two boni. And as you previously mentioned on much lower ranked traditions, it isn't simply worth to pick a whole tradition for just 1-2 of their boni. In all my hundreds of hours on the current 3.8.x patch, I never picked subterfuge and politics. Subterfuge for the reasons above and diplomacy is just the better politics tradition.

[@LG-jn5fx]

Psionics is so powerful if you get the Instrument of Desire. Put the sanctum of desire on an Ecumonopolis and BOOM you have alloys. I have had as high as 30 alloys per Metalurgist, there must be ways to get it higher than that but that is the best I have managed so far. Other bonuses are also great , all pops pumping out extra resources , great scientists and Admirals , the Governor boost is not great but is still a bonus. I almost always go Discovery then Aptitude. Without Discovery the intital scouting to choke points doesnt go well for me so I always regret not taking it. Leaders are so insanely powerful you should be using every advantage you have to boost them so Aptitude is a must have and must have early imho.

[@okboi5371]

In a recent game I had a forge capital ecumenopolis with the instrument of desire plus the planetary bonus you get for killing the scavenger bot which gave my capital +20% to alloy production. I was producing so much alloys on that my capital alone that I didn't need any other forge worlds and was able to repurpose all my others mainly for energy to support my mega fleet lmao

[@nicholaswallace2575]

I’m actually quite fond of the statecraft tradition for a gimmick build I’ve come across. Using the statecraft agenda and it’s finished for +3 councillor skill, as well as the +2 from oligarchy and +1 from vaults of knowledge brings your maximum councillor level up to 16. If you go merchant guilds and max out the director of trade you can squeeze out 11.4 trade value from all of your clerks, merchants give 12 trade. (All this is before thrifty and the other bonuses you can get for trade). Still would be nice if statecraft got a buff though

[@lolmanmagee2785]

mild revisions i would suggest. domination should be higher, its way better than harmony and should not be in the same tier. (influence is very, very good and the economy stuff is pretty nice also) hegemonies are also pretty good, B tier i would say. politics unity gain thing goes absolutely nutty the later into the game you pick it and is IMO the best way to gain unity in the game and i kinda think you known how powerful this civic is community wise and its a easy A tier for me. (also it can give over twice the influence of domination, which is kinda crazy and id say this is better than diplomacy most of the time, especially if you already have joined a federation) im not really sure why you placed discovery so low even after hearing you explain it, survey and anomaly stuff is actually amazing early on and the + 1 research alternatives/10% research speed/-20% researcher upkeep is everything level good when it comes to science, very obvious S tier id say as even if you dont open it, You will pick it eventually in every game just like supremacy and prosperity. and personally i would put espionage in C tier, have not really experimented with those mill buffs though and maybe its solid and i under rate it. (also you under rate the starbase influence cost of expansion, its the main benefit even surpassing the pop stuff, but yeah its super bad late game so i agree with placement as if it isn't your opener; you probably never pick it)

[@yroc850]

I agree about the espionage operations. I've been saying you should be able to assassinate leaders for a while now. AND NOW, with Paradox's Leader rework, it seems like a huge opportunity to play sneaky and do some stabbing from the shadows! Hope they address it! Good video, Thanks

[@raideurng2508]

For an isolationist empire of any sort, expansion is quite good as an early pick. The empire size reduction keeps you under the size cap longer, meaning you tech faster for longer. Getting planets early is the most important thing and that tree directly helps it. I honestly couldn't find myself picking anything else.

[@Hlevi87]

I don't get this obsession with Prosperity, especially over Discovery. Prosperity is nice, but highly overrated. This tradition is basically a mineral boosting tree, which is good and all, but getting ecstatic over 5 percents after belittling 10% research speed seems a bit odd. 10% research speed means 15-20% research output from the get go, and 40 even up to 50%(!) research output boost late game, which is insane! There's no other bonus of this proportion in Stellaris. This might easily be one of the best, if not The best tradition item. Science is the most significant resource (alongside pops). If you have strong science, you has everything. With a tech rush, you can quickly build a strong economy, one that makes the 5%-bonuses of Prosperity look laughable. And the way to force an early tech rush is to take every opportunity to improve your scientists by increasing XP gain, pick options, and survey speed. You said that you can get 10% research speed from elsewhere, but it's not quite true. You have to literally hunt for it. Whereas minerals you can easily acquire from various different sources . Until you can afford to allocate a handful of pops as miners, build a mining hub, turn on mining subsidies, and research (or pick as traits) some edict fund boosts, you can just buy mineral on the market. But don't believe me, let's do the math: say you have flat 100 mineral deposits in your systems (which is a lot). With 20% mining boost you get an extra 20 mineral / month. Also, let's say you build 3x 400-mineral buildings/districts a year. With -10% cost you can save 120 minerals / year = 10 / month. The total is 30 mineral / month. Now, you do the stuff I wrote above. With 1x or 2x 20%-mining job researches: from the basic 4-5 mineral / month / pop you can easily go up to 12. You only need 4 pops this way to meet this 30 mineral / month. I'd say it's not worth an entire tradition tree. Though, I mostly play tall, where mining station output doesn't make much difference, and I tend to shove all my pops in one big planet early game, so I don't have to build on every planet, I still can't see Prosperity as such a great option. Sorry for the long rant... :3

[@felixalexisortizlagos6904]

i think the need of Supremacy unlocking war doctrines is like Diplomacy unlocking federations, War doctrines must be a regular tech (a rare one) and Supremacy could amplify the bonuses of war doctrines or maybe add another doctrine idk... ...ah and the same with Mercantile, the diferent tipes of trade must be a tech and this tradition could amplify that bonuses

[@lordsesshoumaru8596]

-10% starbase cost is neither here nor there..? staring out and expanding territory for resources ect that's every 10th starbase is free when you're only getting 2-4 influence a month... in addition to the expansionist policy makes it -20% starbase cost and every 5th free or making you more versatile and can change your policy sooner and if you're getting ready to make claims especially if they're blocking your hyperlane influence is very valuable. unless you're specifically talking about wack pvp just building fleets to be the other person asap with a small amount of rng making any difference, really boring...

[@pzrk-sh8qh]

bro put aptitude into A tier, while it gives you ability to get tons and tons of minerals and(or) credits from the air, meaning more pops would work on science and(or) alloys

[@Galardomond]

"We can only choose 7 of them." I can not recommend modded Stellaris enough. I have played giga with 12 Tradtions and an additional civic for years. Lately, I even changed to 20, just to see all possible advantages. Planet ascension is fun for a hand full of worlds but just does not *feel* as impactfull as finishing a Tradtion.

[@davidbodor1762]

I'd say you're flat wrong about the -10% Starbase influence cost on the Expansion tree. It's THE most important early tradition to grab, because it gives you the ability to take extra starbases way faster. The cost may be whatever late in the game, but in a highly populated game where you have to race to grab as much territory as you can before other empires do, it's THE most important thing to have. It lets you lock in choke points early on, or mess up other empires borders to open a path to attack. It lets you box in empires, or snake yourself into highly rich systems. It's THE tradition that sets up your late game. The tree itself might not be that important, but that one tradition early is a game changer. Then you can pick up the +1 pop once you already have a colony starting up. You can actually pick it after the colony is already establishing, as long as you get it before its finished, you get the extra pop, so you don't have to rush the +1 pop tradition, but the -10% influence cost is insanely good for the early 'race' phase of the game.

[@madlarkin8]

My girlfriend printed a Jpeg of the "Unity Trait Unlocked" icon on my christmas card because she realized I said "f*** yeah" every time it appeared and I had been conditioned to associate it with accomplishment.

[@CalebSteele]

Yes, you're wrong. Expansion is S tier when taken early. But yes, federations shouldn't be locked behind the Diplomacy tradition.

[@imperator9343]

A suggestion fromna very new/sporadic player of Stellaris who really likes the meta theory behind the game, it would be super super helpful if you put up labels (instead of just icons) for the topic (in this case tradition tree) that you are talking about im a givem moment. Usually it's obvious but tbh i cant quickly ID all of them by graphic or context, and if i space out for a second when you move on (as one does in a video this long ) then I sometimes miss the name of the tree you are talking about, esp cause you almost exclusively refer to them with pronouns.

[@paulblankenship8344]

50% minimum habitability in adaptability would be stupid OP. As of current in order to get something like that you have to play either a lithoid or a subterranean empire, forcing you to change your entire playstyle in order to get that bonus. To have it from a tradition would be a much lower cost for the same effect.

[@MrKoffeeKup]

I hate to say it but discovery got relatively nerfed so hard its not even usable now, and it makes me upset because it was my favorite perk, that was half the point of my custom empire and it actually worked for a very long time giving me a lot of great side quests and tech boons. Now? I get almost squat in comparison to some of the others. I would almost consider it a LOW 'C' tier it is so bad and I love the tree for its previous potential. Its fine in base game.

[@theo6062]

I don't agree for Expansion Tradition : I do think that's an absolute banger for early game, allowing quick... well, expansion lol. But it might just be my casual mind who plays on Civilian lol

[@fatherwilliam7256]

Personally, I think Domination and Diplomacy should be mutually exclusive. Domination should have Vassalization locked behind it just like Diplomacy locks Federation. Essentially make empires choose to be white hats (Diplomacy), or black hats (Domination). Then rework both traditions to improve the effectiveness of the chosen path. Without either tradition you can only join other empires federations or become other empire's vassals. And As a PS, I'd like to see them go back to having every ascension path start with a tradition choice unless you have selected an ascension origin. Waiting on RNJesus to let you start an ascension path is moronic.

[@tbotalpha8133]

I wouldn't make them mutually exclusive, but I do like the idea of needing to take a specific Tradition to unlock the ability to vassalize other empires. I don't see why an empire shouldn't be able to engage with its peers and superiors diplomatically, while dominating its inferiors.

[@randomintrovertedspider7510]

It would also stop the subjugation spam - both on the AI's part and the humans. I personally just like to kill the entire galaxy a lot of the time.

[@CalebSteele]

Interesting. I don't like having Federations locked behind Diplomacy, but you have a cool idea here.

[@BXot]

Finishing Statecraft early as your first tradition does let you rush out your third civic and that 300 xp for every agenda actually really shines early on considering how big some of the level bonus from leaders are, viewed in a vacuum Statecraft is terrible but if you view it as an extra leader level and civic over everyone else in the early game it is actually pretty huge. Terrible late game choice though.

[@magnuskno]

Wow, I disagree so much with Montu's picks, but he really is making a multiplayer list and not telling his audience.

[@Autissima]

It'd be great to also kinda know when to pick them, I know you said it for some but just some example empires with the paths you'd plan to go if that makes sense, although that'd have made the video even more massive. Still a really great list! As always :3

[@KjetilVago]

I always open with Expansion and the influence cost modifier. It's so good for rapidly gobbling up all the systems in the early game and ensuring I get all the chokepoints that I want. I pick influence cost before I get extra pop and growth speed.

[@XShrike0]

I like expansionist for the colony buffs and the influence discount. In almost every game I play, I am usually hurting for influence. Except for one game I played where I was running into the influence limit, which I never new existed. I still do not know what I need to get so much influence.

[@actuallogic6411]

35:50 ... Traditions giving higher weights to Leader Traits in general should be a thing. That sounds amazing.