Stephen Meyer Responds To Stephen Fry's "GOD IS EVIL!" Video

[@FreedomPact]

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[@pokie6087]

What perplexes me is how you can declare God "evil" if you don't believe he exists

[@jerrygibbons7746]

Steven fry does not believe in God. He's simply saying if I were to meet this God, that I don't believe I would ask these questions.

[@davidmitchell6117]

@@pokie6087 Who declared god evil? The god described in the bible was declered evil, not the god who isnt believed in!

[@stevemak8620]

It's more nuanced than that. It's an "If your god exists as you declare, then he must be evil to design cancer into random little children" propositional argument. One does not need to believe that God exists to talk about Him. I don't believe Tom Sawyer ever existed, but I still can talk about him. Same with God.

[@davidmitchell6117]

@@stevemak8620 Tom Sawyer never existed? I’m shattered.

[@HowardJohnson-r3f]

@@pokie6087 Athiest are saying the God of the Bible is evil not that he exist.

[@michaelbabbitt3837]

How we view death is crucial in all this. I go with the idea that this world is primarily for developing the virtues, not for happiness, nor for long life and prosperity, which may be wonderful blessings, but they are not the primary substance of life. How people deal with suffering - and the causes of suffering - speak volumes about who they are and what they live for. And without God in one's innermost being, the suffering is often unbearable and you get bitterness and resentment; with God, you experience forgiveness and healing (but I am not necessarily talking about a prolonged life).

[@Arven8]

This works ok for some forms of suffering, but not for the type Fry mentions. Nor does it work for animal suffering, unless you assume that animals also develop character through their suffering (I'm not discounting that possibillity, but it goes beyond what Christians believe). I should add, I find the "character development" argument quite compelling as an explanation for some or even many cases of suffering. I am just not satisfied that it covers things like painful terminal cancer in a two year old, or billions of years of animal suffering.

[@davemaverick8438]

and still he hasnt anwered the clear design in parasite animals and insects which are made to eat the host from the inside without damaging vital organs, thats not consequence of the fall thats conscious design

[@sidpheasant7585]

What you write, and what David Attenborough and Stephen note, cannot be denied by any who know their biology. But it is also the case that virus nucleic acids introduced into our genome over the span of time are essential for the development of the myelin sheath (longer-distance transmission of nerve impulses) and even for key aspects of placentation. God looked at His creation and saw it was good ... all of it. Even the pathogens had a chance to "redeem themselves" over time.

[@davemaverick8438]

@@sidpheasant7585 how can something without consciousness "redeem" itself? that whole concept is ridiculous, deism has more sense than that doctrine

[@sidpheasant7585]

@@davemaverick8438 I did put it in quotation marks; but these scientific facts raise several issues - first it could be (and is) argued that these events are so unlikely as to make advanced life on Earth a one-off in the cosmos; and such a chance affair as to dismiss God from creation altogether. The truth is (I believe) quite the opposite; which is why I wrote what I wrote. God actually refuted Stephen Fry-type arguments that He created organisms with "evil" behaviours (obviously as a biologist I do NOT see it quite that way, but Stephen as a non-scientist might); because as we know human beings could not prosper (or even survive) without bacteria; just our processes would not work had our genomes not acquired many, many viruses. This is precise proof that created organisms, though pathogenic, are NOT evil, but actually make their contribution to the development of humankind as the chosen species. Indeed, the idea that only by absorbing viruses that did them harm could our answers evolve into us is so paradoxical and unlikely that it actually speaks for a steering of creative intent.

[@sidpheasant7585]

@@davemaverick8438 I did write that in quotation marks, as you will note. But still the above scientific facts can be (and are) used by opponents to show that our evolved presence here on Earth is so ridculously unlikely that we are a one-off in the cosmos. They use the same argumentation to deny the existence of God. I put it as quite the opposite. The fact that we can only exist and do what we do because the genomes of our ancestors were infiltrated multiple times by viruses originally present as pathogens has a divine twist to us. It is indeed highly unlikely, which is why we might say that God planned it that way, and saw to it. Likewise, we could not survive without bacteria and other microorganisms in the environment and within us - that precisely proves that even the potential pathogens God allowed to appear also "grow", and contribute to the emergence of ourselves as the species made in God's image. It does indeed comply with the idea of God seeing His creation and seeing it as good, which is a precise refutation of Stephen Fry-type attacks on God. If God had created everything immutably - as it would then be forever, then no "growth" or "redemption" would be possible. But it is! It is actually a familiar fact that pathogenic viruses and bacteria later evolve towards a more symbiotic circumstance. Indeed, the very existence of the eukaryotic cell even earlier in evolution is an example of cooperation overriding competition, which again looks rather divine and teleological, if not theological. Paradoxically (and there is sympathy), the one who looks ridiculous is Darwin - for believing that everything was parent-child inherited in tiny steps, ensuring we could trace back a perfect family tree from us to the first life. In fact, we now know 145 human genes are in us thanks to horizontal transfer, from bacteria and viruses, but also from fungi and protists. While we could argue each of those examples were chance happenings (with these being the positive cases among zillions of negative ones that resulted in death and so were not passed on); but in fact this also gives huge scope for a process that was steered... I do not KNOW if that is what happened, but I certainly cannot preclude that, and in fact I do have faith that it happened.

[@ulfingvar1]

@@davemaverick8438 Religion is sick, insane and ultimately evil.

[@EasyJay1000]

I think that framing is immensely important. These tragedies highlighted by Stephen Fry illustrate the cruel, savage and inhuman nature of life itself, but completely omit and pay no attention to all that God had created, the beauty of life itself, the beauty of nature and the limitless possibilities of humanity. It would not be inconceivable to imagine a world without any disease as such mentioned but a consequence of such a world would be a world devoid of struggle, strife and misery which are quintessential elements of the human condition. Lastly, in order for us to enjoy happiness, it’s important for us to know unhappiness, the law of polarity is a necessary element which when expressed, expresses itself in cases such as that mentioned by Stephen Fry, but are not necessarily arguments for a particularly evil God.

[@ricks7469]

At the 5 minute mark of a nine minute answer, Stephen Meyer has not addressed the question of Why God created a world with such horrors. He has hidden behind nineteenth century apologists and incorrectly stated that decay and degradation are responsible for such horrors when in fact, they are often the result of thriving life forms.

[@joewarhurst5646]

He kind of did. He suggests that evil in the world has come from people that was a consequence of our free will. Arguably this is the message that the story of Adam and Eve attempts to convey. If Christianity is true then Jesus came and suffered with us and gives us hope of eternal life in paradise.

[@lmb1931]

There is no scientific answer, which is his answer. I don't know, is itself an answer.

[@joewarhurst5646]

@@lmb1931 that’s if you have a preconceived idea that science is the only way to truth, which is a philosophical claim not a scientific one and thus in which case is self-refuting.

[@lmb1931]

@@joewarhurst5646 I don't make that claim.

[@danieltweddell5973]

He’s saying God probably didn’t create the world that way. Scott Minnich, a microbiologist, found that virulence is typically the loss of genetic information. It’s now possible the map the genetic changes that produced the plague, and in four major changes it evolved from harmless to killer. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fp-4o6Oqm5KrrJY. He’s suggesting our rebellion against God introduced those problems. Although we don’t know that origins of many of these horrors, some of the ones we do, for example AIDS, can be linked directly there.

[@ge97aa]

It sickens me when people presume to put themselves in the seat of judgement over God. Saying "how dare you" to God?! How dare _you_ presume that God be accountable to you, Fry? Why are you or any other humans worth even God's slightest recognition? Why does your suffering even matter? What are you next to Him? The fact that he He _does_ love us, or chooses to provide any goodness to us _at all,_ is something to be _immeasurably_ grateful for. Fry, you should be on your knees every day thanking him profusely for all the good things he provides you. Your arrogant sense of entitlement is as nothing next to the awesome power, glory, and majesty of the Almighty God.

[@-1lovethesea]

And about you? How dare you say God who created everything was once an embryo in a womb of a woman?

[@-1lovethesea]

How dare you say that God was once captured, spat at, tortured and crucified? oh you glorify God in your faith so much.

[@ge97aa]

@@-1lovethesea Indeed, all of those things do greatly glorify God. Thank you for noticing.

[@dsingsit]

Just because someone is far more powerful doesn't mean he or she deserves respect, otherwise you are just justifying aliens to come and turn humans into slaves since aliens are technologically superior

[@ge97aa]

@srs2283 Right back at you.

[@LostsTVandRadio]

Even though Stephen Meyer didn't expand upon the disastrous impact of the fall on what had previously been pristine 'nature', all in all he gave a very considered and helpful response to Stephen Fry's objections.

[@veganlolo]

That "considered and helpful response" will be of great comfort to a child with cancer. FFS

[@LostsTVandRadio]

@@veganloloNo indeed, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that what Meyer said is of comfort to a child with cancer - forgive me if I gave that impression.

[@LostsTVandRadio]

@@veganlolo There is however much that a Christian can offer by way of comfort and hope to a child in that terrible situation. I would contend that an atheistic worldview does not have much to offer.

[@boxonothing4087]

@@LostsTVandRadio isn't offering comfort for something your god created and inflicted hypocritical ?

[@LostsTVandRadio]

@@boxonothing4087Well, I suppose that if the starting assumptions you've posited (that God created cancer and then inflicted it upon people) were true then yes it would be. But that's not the Biblical worldview.

[@philtheo]

A great little introductory level book on the problem of evil is Why Is There Evil in the World? by the Christian philosopher Greg Welty. Welty also has a forthcoming book in the 40 Questions series about the problem of evil. And Welty has studied under the great philosopher Alvin Plantinga as well as the great theologian John Frame. Indeed, Welty was Frame's teaching assistant and Swinburne was Welty's doctoral advisor aka supervisor in Britspeak. Welty offers more than the standard Christian responses to the problem of evil, such as the free will defense, and he delves quite deeply into theodicy as well.

[@Arven8]

Thanks, I'll check it out. There has to be something better than "Adam and Eve did it."

[@philtheo]

@@Arven8 Thanks, by the way Welty also has free stuff online if you search, but the free stuff online is more like an intro to the intro, more to whet the appetite, I guess, but still useful. Also I should say I don't entirely agree with everything Welty says, the problem of evil is a difficult problem after all (for Christians and non-Christians alike), but I do find Welty thought provoking at least.

[@Arven8]

@@philtheo It is a tough problem for sure.

[@Arven8]

@@philtheo I ordered his book and look forward to it. I'm glad you mentioned it.

[@philtheo]

@@Arven8 Thanks for letting me know and thanks also for your kind words! ☺️ I hope you enjoy the book - even or perhaps especially if you disagree with it (and I don't entirely agree with it myself but it does make me think more deeply about these issues)! By the way, I've emailed Welty before and he seems very generous in responding to emails. I think he really wrestles with these questions as well and he's happy to try and help others. At least that's been my experience with him.

[@ozymandias6743]

Perhaps I missed it, But I saw no answer as to why God created insects that burrow into the eyes of children causing them to go blind.

[@davidreinker5600]

Because we want to go our own way. We can look at God creating such insects as an act of evil because God offers nothing else or we can look at God creating such insects to help us understand what life without him really means and to motivate us to follow him because he offers healing and an eternal paradise. Fry's issue is that he looks at the gift horse in the mouth. Life is precious even with the suffering.

[@ozymandias6743]

@@davidreinker5600 I am perplexed by your answer. Are you suggesting that a child who goes blind from an insect God created to consume his eye's sclera should be thankful that God allows him to better "understand life"?

[@davidreinker5600]

@@ozymandias6743 Perhaps he would be thankful to have life even if it isn't a bed of roses? Is God evil if he give some people more than he gives others?

[@sidpheasant7585]

The strongest apparent argument of those who attack God is: "why didn't he make people immune to all disease and capable of living forever?" Of course, God's answer to that is; "did that already, through my Son". If we have eternal life, even 100 years here is an infinitely small percentage of that...

[@mangiblotarinawabag4964]

Perhaps you should listen with an open heart instead of a closed mind. The question was answered multiple times.

[@owennoad-watson2820]

I’m atheist, but I’ve always been fascinated by religion (I was raised Catholic in England with a Catholic primary, Catholic secondary and Catholic college) so I’m a little disappointed that there are so many atheists here arguing by saying that the question wasn’t answered, because it was. The tldr answer was that Christians believe and are taught that evil in nature is caused both the angels and mankind betraying god and through that, losing the ability to properly tame and nurture nature- represented by mankind’s expulsion from Eden. You could ask why God had something like this in place, but then a Christian might answer that you wouldn’t truly have free-will if you didn’t also have consequences as well as reward and that both these outcomes exist in purgatory and life, but then also ultimately in heaven as the ultimate reward and hell as the ultimate consequence. Atheism is not a religion. As an atheist, you do not need to do or argue for anything. But as humans, it’s important to respect the beliefs of others and it’s necessary to learn from others in order to do that. I’d love to believe in a God, as that would provide a lot of reassurance for the things that I struggle with. People aren’t idiots for that. We don’t CHOOSE to believe or not believe. If you’re CHOOSING to be an atheist, then you need to ask yourself if you really are an atheist; simply not believing that there is an ultimate power, or if you’re simply angry and vitriolic. The answer in this video was respectful, simply explaining the Christian view. Please, reciprocate. If you want to fight, go ahead, but as a species, we need to think of the best way to ease pain and suffering for future generations, to better the lives of our children and grandchildren. That means accepting those that disagree with you and working together

[@tajhoward8098]

Okay so if God "took the risk" and created beings with free will that takes away a central pillar of Christianity doesn't it? That God is omniscient. Why would he need to "take a risk" if he knew the outcome?

[@chriswilford4657]

Of course God knows but us trapped in time and space don't but if we hear the gospel story and believe it we enter into a relationship with God through his word so we believe and he imputes that to us as righteousness a free gift when understood inspires us through love and gratitude to be obedient and faithful

[@ulfingvar1]

@@chriswilford4657 That was the dumbest and most asinine reply you could possibly have come up with. The whole idea of free will is made pointless if God from Day One knows how we will choose. Free will is turned into a sick, senile, demented joke.

[@Army4Runner]

@@ulfingvar1No. Your response is one of a petulant child. God grants free will and is also omniscient. That doesn’t mean your free will is taken from you. The two are mutually exclusive. But, your initial response is descriptive of the exact behavior one would expect from a person who knows the rules but “just doesn’t like them.” Humans are fallen away from God. God has given us rules by which to live our lives to draw near to Him. God sacrificed His only begotten Son to finally defeat death and bring humanity into His warm embrace. It is freely given. It’s YOUR choice to freely love God or to reject Him.

[@maggiebarrett7300]

⁠@@Army4RunnerYes, free will and god’s omniscience are “mutually exclusive”, meaning they cannot exist simultaneously. If your god is omniscient, there is no free will.

[@chriswilford4657]

@@ulfingvar1 do you take responsibility for your actions daily or just credit for virtue's and distance from sin own your life brother like everyone must if they are to heal and come to the truth of the gospel the beautiful sacrifice of a saviour only he was qualified to complete and graciously offered to anyone who believes the point being submitt your free will to your creator and life start's to make sense

[@bensharp8289]

Amazing how atheists feel such animosity toward a being they don’t believe in. Shouldn’t you be mad at the “universe” or blind evolutionary forces for the way this world is? And if this world is the result of such accidental forces, why is it a world with suffering? Wouldn’t blind evolutionary forces automatically lead to a world that’s more conducive to human thriving? Or was this just the way things had to happen due to these natural forces. If that’s just the way things had to be, then why are we horrified and appalled by it? Our anger and grief only make sense if we were made for something more and this world has fallen short of that.

[@Aguijon1982]

If it's ok to have a creator without a creator then it's also ok to have a universe without a creator.

[@Aguijon1982]

@matthewphilip1977 It's the same logic in having a creator that doesn't need a creator.

[@DickyMorin]

Dear Aguijon, I think those who argue a Creator without a creator mean that with Him, the buck stops there. This implies an immaterial being that stands outside the material world He created. Scientists, who can only deal with the material world, can't find him because their tools can't find Him. Nothing can not create something. This means that all the material things of our universe had to be created by a something else we are not detecting. Our philosophy points to a Creator who is not a part of his creation.

[@Aguijon1982]

@@DickyMorin If it's ok to stop at an invisible Immaterial "creator", it is also ok to just stop at the universe as a quantum fluctuation.

[@bingpz]

@@Aguijon1982 He is eternal you are busing temporal logic to explain something it is not capable of.

[@bingpz]

@@Aguijon1982 Bullshit and you know it

[@philipbrayshaw6288]

I have deep respect for Stephen Meyer and for his work and materials which support the belief in ID, space, physics and so much more. I have learned much from his interviews and presentations. However I thought that his answer to the question he was asked in this video showed him to be quite the wrong person to ask. Much of his answer came across to me as rambling and ill-thought out and did nothing to enlighten me further regarding the issues mentioned. Maybe John Lennox is the person for this type of debate? Horses for courses and all that.

[@Arven8]

Agreed. I like Meyer's ID and scientific work, and he ought to stick to that. He is not much of a theologian. He came across no better than your average churchgoer here.

[@lv4077]

There is no easy answer to this question of why things are how they are.All I know is there is no explanation for the complexity of life and the universe outside of a very refined and elaborate plan that only some sort of unexplainable genius had to provide.

[@stevemak8620]

That is an astounding simple take on this subject. Thank you. Thank you very much...

[@stalsborg]

True. But that does not leave us with christianity as the only alternative

[@stevemak8620]

@@stalsborg Careful. It's all he knows.

[@lv4077]

@@stalsborg I never said one word regarding the identity of this source of genius.Man has been trying to understand the character and identity of a God,humans assume he takes human form,for as long as he has walked the planet.

[@lv4077]

@@jamesmccann3630 Well,that reply sounds like utter ignorance.I can assure you I’ve forgotten more about the complexity of the universe than you’ll ever know.

[@danielong9465]

Atheist have done a tremendous job for God, and sensibly God happily allows them a room to keep working on it.

[@psychologicalprojectionist]

Don't misunderstand on purpose. Stephen Fry does not think God is evil. He thinks God doesn't exist. His point is, the god described in the bible is evil AND IF that God did exist He has allowed evil to exist.

[@aacra]

Precisely! He's an atheist and was answering the hypothetical question of what he would say on arriving in heaven. It was clear to anyone that he was answering hypothetically.

[@RobertEWaters]

And his point fails. See the above.

[@anton1949]

And God could heal all maladies in children, but he simply will not.

[@onceamusician5408]

you are right at least about the first part of your post. Fry does not think he will meet God for he is convinced his view proves such a being cannot exist. but is he right??

[@anton1949]

@@onceamusician5408 There lies the genius of religion, they sell an invisible product. Proof on either side of the debate, cannot be settled. And the beat goes on.

[@jesseadebayo4746]

What an inventor invents or a creator creates is purely his call. To say that an invention does not meet your expectations diminishes or make the inventor non-existent is neither logical nor reasonable.

[@andrewmazzer]

The issue is that the so-called divine creator and sky fairy states he loves everybody. Clearly not. His 'actions and inactions' are anything but loving.

[@jesseadebayo4746]

@@andrewmazzer According to whose standard? When a person considers himself more knowledgeable than an inventor or a creator, he proves it by creating a better product otherwise keeps quiet. Create your own universe that is perfect according to your standard and we can then take you seriously.

[@andrewmazzer]

@jesseadebayo4746 This is an expected and unfortunately common reply. Sky fairy product would be recalled in the real world, and one would be entitled to compensation.

[@stevemak8620]

@@andrewmazzer Agree 100%...

[@Dabhach1]

When an atheist complains about the injustice of the world, it's like an anarchist complaining about the trains always running late.

[@BonusHole]

Because in Darwin's theory of evolution which Fry subscribes to, no bad things happen, there is no suffering. And that is why Fry believes in it. He is of course condemned to the status of an evolutionary dead end and genetic defective by his own belief because - homosexual activity does not reproduce and reproduction is the impetus of evolution... The levels of cognitive white noise these people exist with is astounding.

[@mditt7]

yeah they are more than happy to continue drinking greedily from the well of life, but then turn and pee all over the one who provides the water.

[@bisbeekid]

Nonsense. Atheists do not "complain" about injustice, they merely state a fact of human suffering in the natural world. "The universe loves us as much as it loved the dinosaurs." Sam Harris

[@pineapplepenumbra]

Your post either shows a complete misunderstanding of the argument, or a base dishonesty on your part. So, are you stupid or a liar? As it has to be one of the two.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@mditt7 "they are more than happy to continue drinking greedily from the well of life," What the hell are you on about?

[@nrtnrt6676]

Of course if you don't believe in God then MAN is responsible and MAN is evil. But the next question is by what standard does society judge evil?

[@rudysimoens570]

The goal of the secular morality is the wellbeing of the individuals and the societies! And I hope people don't get their morals from the bible! The bible is not only literally FULL of scientific nonsense but also FULL of disgusting and discriminating morals! Women and minority groups have been discriminated and considered second class people for centuries and still are on the basis of those bronze age man-made myths, doctrines and rules how to behave to "please" their imaginary celestial dictator! Anyway, science and especially evolution have already debunked the crux of christianity and the crux of all the other religions I know of ages ago! And there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of ANY god or Allah or whatever name they gave to their non-existing skydaddy!

[@nrtnrt6676]

@matthewphilip1977 because humans use language.

[@nrtnrt6676]

@matthewphilip1977 could you give some examples please?

[@tamalafaiki4512]

This guy needs to be in politics because he knows how to answer a question without answering a question.

[@arthurattila7835]

Which part did you not understand? The fall created all of creation. That makes sense.

[@mangiblotarinawabag4964]

Perhaps you stopped listening after 5 minutes because of your closed mind. Open your heart. The question was answered multiple times, in multiple ways.

[@ivans8713]

He answers very nicely. One of reasons for me to support Christianity and be fallower of Jesus is that he is only God who came to be with humans and suffered with them. He shared pain and didnt stay above and laugh at us. Listen what Mayer says. No other religion has those claims.

[@HowardJohnson-r3f]

I agree with Stephen Fry.

[@timducote5713]

Its certainly easier than thinking for yourself, right?

[@HowardJohnson-r3f]

@@timducote5713 All you have to do is read the Bible. Most Christians never read the Bible. If you read all of it you will find out that God is really evil. In one passage he asked the Israelites to kill babies. I don't care what you say that is pure evil.

[@chongkim-fh4zp]

Ive seen a disfigured body of a little baby who lived a few hours or days. She must have suffered unimaginable pain while she was alive. She had no chance to rebel against nobody n nothing. Stop talking bullshit, will you

[@michaelbrittain7445]

You're hypocrisy is the problem here. You are using this poor child's brief existence as a stick to try to insult God, but you are failing to interrogate your own double-standards on this. I have seen abortion techniques that ALSO put the baby in unimaginable pain - the injections, the saline solution etc. You can actually see the poor baby wriggling in agony as it dies. Do you join the objectors - often believers in God - to giving pain to babies - oh, sorry! "zygotes"/"fetuses'" - or do you just say, "this is only a bunch of cells" (like us, of course!), & their pain is not like OUR pain? Also; Do you teach the atheist/materialist view ;that we are all just meaningless skin-sacks of chemicals living in an accidental & indifferent universe? Then, by your own logic we have no more "right" to a pain-free life than a rock or a bacteria! Pain is then just part of a godless pattern & has no real moral dimension. It can be no more "wrong" on this view, than any other painful natural processes in evolution's relentless march. That baby- if you were consistent - would just be a biological blob. That child has no special objective value if you are an atheist. If you are a theist - it does. The very fact that we all KNOW, deep down, that a child's life IS of value, is just another proof that materialism is just plain WRONG. Also; the Scripture says that we are all, naturally "dead in trespasses & sins" it does not require a conscious rebellion against God, since that rebellion is now a symptom of our fallen condition. It surfaces pretty quickly though! As soon as we can express ourselves! Nobody has ever had to teach their child to be behave badly. Since we have demanded a world patterned on OUR image with US as the arbiters of what is right & wrong, we have had a dangerous, broken, fickle world with pain & death as it's INEVITABLE corollaries. So what do we offer the parents of this poor baby? The Christian must say; pain & death are an actual evil. They are the trespassers humanity invited in, when it turned away from the God of Life & Peace, & this corrupted state will continue to reflect OUR bitter condition. In order to bring an END to this fallen pattern, God has done TWO things which see it's eradication. FIRST, God has, in Christ, PERSONALLY suffered in our stead, bearing the sin, guilt & pain which is naturally ours, so that a New Humanity, born again, can begin to live a new life in him, strengthened with his help & eager to help the suffering world. SECONDLY, God has promised, at Christ's return to create "a new heavens & a new earth in which righteousness dwells" - to put an END to all death & suffering. An end to pain & sorrow. CONVERSELY; The CONSISTENT atheist must say to the parents, "It doesn't matter." "The only reason we THINK it matters who lives or dies or suffers, is because we have delusions of grandeur which are NOT consistent with our random, purposeless origins." There is NO reason for our suffering, there is no higher purpose. There is no redemption from death or suffering. There is no END in sight. We live for nothing, we suffer for nothing, we die for nothing. ALL life, in the eyes of the consistent materialist, is worth, literally......nothing. "I am the way, the truth & the life" said Christ. (John 14:6)

[@thomaswayneward]

I have seen the world changed by Christianity. You don't realize how the world is surrounded by Christianity, just like a gold fish doesn't know it is in water.

[@brandonmacey964]

He responds around 1:20

[@JakobIlar]

“God? Why cancer in children?” “Why didn’t you sell your second car and treat them?”

[@BonusHole]

"God? Why the cancer in the children?" "Well I did warn the woman not to eat the fruit... and I did warn the man not to harken to the woman..."

[@haitaelpastor976]

My mother died of an untreatable brain tumor. No amount of cars would suffice. What then?

[@damianabbate4423]

​@@haitaelpastor976What then? Throw Jesus' useless body on the giant scrap heap of dead gods of history, which is at nearly 18,000.

[@damianabbate4423]

Yes, 'cause cancer has been so treatable in the past.

[@xxan84]

If God himself washed the feet of people, died in horrible pain on the cross, why do you assume your life should be easy? We live in a fallen world of our own making, the car analogy actually works, while we can't cure all cancer with it, how many people could we help if would actually live more like Jesus did. Just look at how many people are dead fighting in wars like Russia and Ukraine or the Gaza strip. At what point do we stop blaming God and look more at what we are doing.

[@chrisxavier1848]

God wants us to have a relationship of mutual love; for that we must have freedom of choice.

[@Frakka475]

If God created free will, not wanting puppets or machines, then why does the Bible shows god lying, using guile and deception to manipulate individuals? In addition the choice you are ultimately presented with is not free choice: worship me, believe in me or go to hell. A special place he has created to punish and torture you for eternity not for murder, adultery, rape, bearing false witness but refuting the first three commandments but you’re ok with the others as long as you fulfil the first three. This isn’t free choice it’s coercion.

[@wbelfast777]

If you accept free will and believe in god you will try to honour the 10 commandments.If you are atheist why would you care about the 10 commandments.your coercion point is stupid,you can`t expect to disregard god by your own choice and be treated the same as someone who belives.

[@Arven8]

I also wonder, if God created free will, he also created human nature (filled with all sorts of 'evil' impulses). Surely He could have foreseen the uses to which free will would be put.

[@thomaswayneward]

People like you, don't understand the massive ignorance you display. Talking to someone like you is like a math professor trying to explain calculus to a three year old. You don't have the basic understanding to really discuss the beliefs of Christians, the Church or the Bible.

[@antongmeidell8564]

You need to show examples of a treacherous , manipulate God, not just throwing out truthclaims like that. Very unprofessionable. And where does that come from that only the first 3 commandments counts? If you breake one, you break them all. Sin is sin, big or small. Everybody sins, even christians. Thats the whole point with the Bible. Humans cant stop doing sin, thats why we needed Gods help tto be clean; once and for all. About free will: God created you- you can either choose to be with him in paradise where everything is good, or choose by your own will to stay away from God and live a natural life ending with death..The choice is yours, my friend- make the right one

[@thomaswayneward]

@@Arven8 You are woefully ignorant of the Bible and Christianity. Plus you don't know what free will is.

[@Rajgitaa]

Excellent. Finally someone adequately answers the reaon for suffering, that soo many "christians" have difficulty answering.

[@thomaswayneward]

I know a lot of Christians and I don't know one that can't answer that simple question.

[@jamescoolkid]

This has to be one of the worlds worst defenses of Christianity. I believe in a loving God, who loves children, who also designs worms to borrow into their eyes! Priceless.

[@antongmeidell8564]

The world and the meaning of Life is a bit bigger than you manage to grasp. Its a bigger picture my friend, dont get hung up in the little details..

[@lmb1931]

Fry places himself as the judge of God.

[@BruceFox-Lefriche]

In a sense, yes. Just as we can all judge Voldemort in “Harry Potter”, Iago in “Othello” or Sauron in “The Lord of the Rings”. We read a story. There can be heroes, there can be villains. According to the Bible, God orders us to kill women accused of witchcraft, which Christian countries happily did until at least the late 18th century (not withstanding that fact that every single woman tortured, hanged or burnt at the stake - on God's orders - was innocent). He tells us to put to death people who blaspheme, people who strike or curse their parents (but not a word about child abuse), and anyone who so much as gathers firewood on the sabbath day. Disobey his second commandment and not only will you be punished, but so will your children, your grandchildren and your great-grandchildren. For drawing pictures ! God supposedly spared Lot from the destruction of Sodom; the righteous Lot who offered his two virgin daughters to a frenzied gang of rapists. Is this God’s display of morality? God also murdered Lot’s wife for looking back on the destruction of her home, just as he killed Onan for refusing to get his deceased brother’s widow pregnant. Then there’s the story of Job, the Plagues of Egypt, the rape and massacre of the Midianite women and children, the slaughter of the Canaanites and the 42 boys mauled to death by bears for laughing at Elisha’s bald head. The Plagues of Egypt and the atrocities committed against the Canaanites and the Midianites would all today be classed as war-crimes and/or crimes against humanity. These are stories of unparalleled evil perpetrated by a monstrous “God” who tells men to chop a woman's hand off for defending her husband against an aggressor ("show her no pity" the eternal and all-loving God commands us). No other work of fiction quite matches the Bible for merciless, barbaric cruelty and sheer immorality.

[@Tight--LiNeZ]

Even if there is a god, who said it's the man-made Abrahamic one? I get Stephen Meyers argument about the complexity & design of life would struggle to be made via evolution, and there may be a higher power/mind. But then to infer that god just happens to be the one he believes in, the popular one of the country he just happens to come from, or the community he grew up in. Is a whole different story. Conflating the possibility of a higher power, with the one he believes in, seems rather lazy and convenient.

[@davidmitchell6117]

All religions are, initially no more than a culturally inherited indoctrination If one were born to, lets say say "Shinto" Japanese parents, what would be the probability of them being Christian?

[@Roscoe0494]

If you listen to Meyer a lot you know that his most compelling, scientific and evidentiary arguments are for intelligent design, not the specific nature of God. Here he is asked his opinion of God's motivation for evil and suffering. So the question itself assumed the existence of God and made assumptions about the nature of God that are human and personal, with specific moral judgements from a mere human perspective about evil and suffering before Meyer ever gets to answer it. Meyer takes the bait on any question he is asked and in this case it is a personal and human answer with the Bible as his context. A scientific, or perhaps atheistic answer wasn't called for or even relevant.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

"Conflating the possibility of a higher power, with the one he believes in, seems rather lazy and convenient." You misspelt "crazy".

[@Tight--LiNeZ]

@@pineapplepenumbra Where did I write the word crazy? I can't see it.

[@ivans8713]

For me very interesting part about Old Testament is that even tho it claims that Israelis are claimed people, those same israelis write many many times how they made big mistakes and God punished them. You would expect that somebody if wanted to make up story, talks about himself in best possible way, but that doesnt really happend in Bible. Those writers of parts of Old testament even write about themselves being sinners and doing bad stuff. They dont say i am so good i am best human alive on planet earth as you would expect

[@voornaamachternaam6159]

If an atheists says that God is evil then what makes him to make a distinction between good and evil? How can he know what is evil, and knowing what is good? If he thinks that Evil represents a God then Good must also represent a God, two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other in a dualistic worldview. If they believe only in an Evil God then that's a fallacy, because then you can't make a distinction. There would also (if they persist which is impossible) no meaning to your life and it would be better to off yourself, why then keep hanging around and convince others of your suicidal worldview?.....This is not logic/reason, rhetoric where they put their trust in. You never hear them about the good, only evil, i wonder why that is. There's a reason why Eve ate from the tree of GOOD & EVIL. Now you got both. And would you confront them with this, then they will say that they believe in a big bang and evolution. This coming into being from nothing without an idea is even more ridiculous, miraculous and fairytail like then the view of creation by a higher mind which sets everything in motion and can tinker with what it creates. And people like me who believe in a higher creator are being told that we believe in fairytails?? These ideologies or seeds are the tares that sprung out of the depths of hyle.

[@psychologicalprojectionist]

​I think Stephen Fry is right. "There is no all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God, who wants to reward only his believers after death and let the rest go to hell", is the best explanation for the world/universe. Why, for one, would he provide so little to make us believe in him, and seemingly so much for us to believe other things or not believe at all. If there is a god, he certainly is not the God of the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran.

[@paramaniacwolverine843]

Here's the gist of the message of the Bible. God Created everything, including us. He created us with the intention that we live eternally. Adam and Eve sinned and brought death into the world, therefore this fallen world is in decay. Yet we still have eternal life given to us. To ensure that we have this eternal life our Creator came to earth as incarnate man as a perfect sacrifice for all sin. All the Jewish festivals and Passovers pointed to Jesus. Jesus took our sin on him. We have the free will to believe He will intercede for us and give us eternal life, or we take on the debt of sin ourselves. Like any just judge, God has to meet out the punishment for our transgressions. He can nail our sin on the cross or he can nail it to us for rejecting Christ and then we serve our sentence along with that Serpent, Satan and his legion of lying demons for eternity. One thing is for sure though, that God has given everyone eternal life, how we choose to spend that life is up to us.

[@stevemak8620]

@@paramaniacwolverine843 So what you are saying is that "God created EVERYTHING" (your words), including the suffering of small children? Your God, a god of free will? What a prick.

[@stevemak8620]

Why did God create Adam and Eve as sinners?

[@stevemak8620]

@@paramaniacwolverine843 How did Adam and Eve's sins bring death into the world? Why create such a world, a world of punishment for sins?

[@stevemak8620]

@@paramaniacwolverine843 Why would God want to create beings that would inevitably bring His creation into decay and deliver death and suffering into the world? Again, I say, what a prick.

[@Biosynchro]

People talk about how bad life is for some people (e.g. homelessness, or cancer), and yet they do nothing about it. It's almost as if they want the drama, not the solution.

[@Dwazedas]

If the great Juju exists, he is either omnipotent and evil, or benevolent but fallible. Take your pick.

[@Dylan-kz1ps]

You seem to be putting faith in your rational faculties to come to that conclusion. I wonder what explanation you have to believe in your ability to be rational without being able to ground it in the existence of a supernatural creator.

[@stevemak8620]

@@Dylan-kz1ps Were I Dwaz I'd reply that my rationality is grounded in logic and humanity, both of which exist independent of any ghosts, holy or otherwise.

[@Dylan-kz1ps]

@@stevemak8620 seek and you will find

[@leofuchs5551]

Stephen fry has a very simple mind. If god is all good why does he allow Stephen to exist.

[@evanbuckley6766]

Christains, if you're offended on the behalf of the most powerful being in existence for someone proposing the idea that that god gave children bone cancer, then maybe your god isn't as good as you think it is.

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

Why should anyone be offended by someone who does not even know how to correctly spell the word "Christians"?

[@evanbuckley6766]

@@lysanderofsparta3708 I didn’t spell it wrong. Truly, if you believe in an all-loving god who would give children bone cancer, you’re a stain.

[@Elhardt]

Nobody in this video was offended.

[@dboc2000]

Nobody is offended

[@ryleighloughty3307]

How are Christians offended? The lesson is that Satan, not God, gives children bone cancer. It is Satan who should be feared and cursed.

[@danielong9465]

The most compelling evidence for God's existence is men's denial. There is really no need for any of these discussion to have taken place everywhere, if there's no god whatsoever.

[@tajhoward8098]

If there was a mass delusion that Santa Claus actually did exist and we should all wear red, bow towards the North Pole once a week, follow his example of diabetes causing gluttony, and attempt to fly off of barns with reindeer and a sleight to judge if we were worthy, then you can bet we would be having this same conversation. Non believers are just concerned about the negative impact religion has on the world, our children, and how it gets in the way of true progress and and the solving of true problems.

[@thomaswayneward]

Perfect, but their minds are blinded. The childish arguments the unbelievers make is not clearly understood by the very people that make the arguments. The only cure is to start reading the Bible.

[@stevemak8620]

Rhetorical nonsense.

[@stevemak8620]

@matthewphilip1977 Rhetorical nonsense...

[@stevemak8620]

@@thomaswayneward Rhetorical nonsense...

[@MatthewFitzpatrick-cy6yr]

There are things that happen and we don't know why. It doesn't mean there is no God; He just hasn't told us why. The bible doesn't tell us everything. It tells us everything we need to know. The message in the bible is "Repent and believe the gospel" .

[@davedfw814]

maybe its just nonsense

[@jannahmull4820]

All glory to God. Hosanna to God's only Son, the King of kings and Lord of lords , JESUS CHRIST Redeemer, Savior

[@davidmitchell6117]

There are indeed things that happen and we don't know why - that doesn't mean there is a god, Believe in the gospels, that differ, were written decades after the death of Jesus by unknown authors?

[@philjones6522]

​@@davedfw814I wonder if there was at one point, some relevance to what was written in the bible. All the translations and redactions of the book have made it a complete mess.

[@davedfw814]

@@philjones6522 no idea. Mans knowledge is finite, and anything beyond that knowledge is assumed to be superstitious. Things stop being superstitious the moment they can be explained by science. Most people grow out of believing in father Xmas, for example. People, especially desperate people, want to believe-that's the problem.. I simply ask for proof, if there is no proof I don't believe it. Your rational has to have a framework.

[@wilsontheconqueror8101]

Are you sure that bone cancer in children is not our fault? When we pollute our environment for decades, it can have very detrimental effects on our health. Yes the child is not at fault,but a lot of sickness & diseases we see in humanity today we simply do not find in the ancient & miedeval world. And it's not simply the population was smaller. The 20th & 21st. Modernization & the Industrial Revolution has greatly influenced our lives for the better. But there is a dark side to that. Just look at India where there are massive runoff from factories that pollute water supplies & do indeed create bizarre cancers & sicknesses from toxic runoff. The bit about larva that burrow into children's eyes is a bit disingenuous! Because there are innumerable creatures that can cause harm to humans. There are thousands probably millions of parasitic lifeforms on this planet. Are they evil? Is God evil for creating such forms of life? No! There are certain leeches that have been studied in using in medication as blood thinners that has saved people's lives. Whatever the state of your body it will eventually break down & die. That's part of living on a planet with living organisms. What's interesting to me is that Stephen Fry never mentioned the millions of children exterminated by doctors in abortion procedures for 50 plus years by modern medicine. Man commits evil every day and that doesn't seem to bother Mr. Fry at all

[@MrBC078]

Another great man of God and science

[@octapc]

😂😂😂😂

[@BubbleGendut]

You will like that other great book of revelation Pinocchio

[@davemaverick8438]

and still no answer about the clear design in paras1te animals/ insects which are made to eat the host from the inside without damaging vital organs, thats not consequence of the fall thats design

[@DrMukeshChauhan]

Stephen Meyers is correct and Stephen Fryers is simply wrong - GOD is not evil. It is lack of knowledge on part of Stephen Fryer that is responsible for such a ridiculous comment from such an intelligent man. His friend the late Christopher Hitchens, whom I admire, was also incorrect about Creator, although he was right about many things about evil of religions.

[@billybobwombat2231]

You make excuses for a narcissistic monster.

[@RS54321]

I don't know any narcissist who would lay down their life to redeem the world.

[@billybobwombat2231]

@RS54321 technically it was just a really really uncomfortable easter weekend, he's god, he knew he was going to be sacrificed to himself and regain his concious reality after a few days, then step back into the sky to be with himself again. The Jesus side of god is essentially a pretty nice dude, the christ side of god , not so nice, he tells you throughout his first book he's got an unforgiving fuse.

[@measententia3473]

The insect argument is essentially: “I stubbed my toe. It hurt. Therefore God cannot exist.” For a reason that this temporal suffering is not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation eagerly awaits the revealing of the sun of God; for the creation was subjected to frustration, not from choice, but through him we affected that bondage, and that with hope; because creation itself will be liberated from its enslavement to decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. Romans 8:-8-21

[@Max-zv1bu]

Children suffering from bone cancer is not same as "I stubbed my Toe".

[@123duelist]

@Max-zv1bu But it's symptomatic of the fact that everyone will pass away one day. No human being is immortal, and the God of the Bible never said we would get paradise on earth. He said we will get paradise in Heaven. Life on earth that we live is a fallen world.

[@seaknightvirchow8131]

The Son of God entered this world was rejected, suffered, and died. Jesus healed many and raised the dead. Someday, death and suffering will be completely gone and nature will be healed. God is not indifferent to pain. As a pathologist I have had to think long and hard as to where bad things like viruses and parasites come from. The Bible describes a fallen world where not only is mankind affected but so is nature. Nature groans in anticipation of redemption. Nevertheless, the existence of evil is a subject not given to glibness or pat answers. Evil may be the best argument by an atheist against the existence of a good, all powerful God, so it is an issue that cannot be ignored either as an abstraction or a personal existential issue. So here is my two cents worth on the topic. To my mind, it does no good to complain about evil if one does not believe in a God who works out his ultimate purpose in all things. There is no foundation for calling something evil, it is just how things are. It is what atoms do when they gang up on us, evolution at work, survival of the fittest if that is your thing. Furthermore I doubt that Fry or Dawkins would believe in God even if every thing in life was perfect with no suffering or sorrow. We would be utterly lacking in any cognizance that something is amiss. We would not be thinking about things like what is our purpose, our origin, or our destiny. We would not be worried about an afterlife nor even think about the moral consequences of our actions. Perhaps one purpose of God allowing pain is to get us to use our mind and free will to think about God and eternity.There are foxhole conversions to use as a synecdoche of this process. Disaster and disease remind us of how fragile we are and how brief life is. If God had made things such that we all live until we are 1000 years old and then die at the stroke of midnight on our millennial birth day, we would likely spend 999 years with callous indifference to our creator. Christ is the exact representation of our father in heaven and he loves children. He said that it would be better to have a millstone tied around your neck and dropped into the sea than to lead a little one astray or ( harm them). I have to believe that children who die go to be with Christ because that is his heart. The other thing is that only God knows the ultimate life and decisions that would have been made by that child had they lived which is something we aren’t privy to. The God of the Bible is omniscient, his knowledge is exhaustive and there is nothing he does not know past, present, and future. For all we know, there may be i significant and evil things that occurred long ago that eventuated in a greater good later in history. There are actually many verifiable examples of these things. Regardless of all that, like Meyers, I find so many reasons to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in Christ. I can trust him without knowledge of his purposes in everything. I myself was diagnosed with a highly fatal cancer a year ago for which I am under treatment and I have been at peace with it. I am not yelling at God because I know him and I trust him. God does not get credit for all of the beauty and complexity of nature but he does get blamed for what goes wrong by very imperfect creatures. An atheist will always find a reason to deny the existence of God. They neither praise him nor thank him but expect goodness from him while denying his existence. Yet, he is faithful to provide for even those who hate him. I am glad that men like Fry and others are not God. They are imperfect sinful people just like me. I am thankful that murderers and rapists who escaped justice in this life will face judgement in the next. I am glad that children who suffered will be made whole and their tears will be wiped away by Christ himself. For the atheist none of these things are possible. Finally, Christians are not spared or immune from death and disease; this does not destroy our confidence in our God. If anything we could be the first to shake our fist in God’s face. One might say, hey up there, my son was on his way to Africa to preach your gospel and you let him be killed in a plane crash or you let his daughter die of malaria. After all, we served you and this is how you repay us? No, that is not ultimately how we work it out. If I were an atheist, I would not worry about the origin of evil because it doesn’t exist according to their ultimate sense of ontology and teleology, things are what they are, matter and energy at work. However, I might find it useful to talk about to reinforce my unbelief and justify how I choose to live.

[@thomaswayneward]

Great post. When a family member dies, that was a Christian, we know where that person is after death. For this reason, Christ died on the cross, that we may have eternal life.

[@johnharkness2342]

God did make a world that was perfect without evil but humans made the world evil

[@krobson4640]

Forgive me but didn't God make a perfect world for us until we sinned. He loves us so much that He allows and forgives our sins. Don't blame God for our imperfect world just thank Him for loving us anyway

[@teks-kj1nj]

Humans sinned, so god made cancer and made animals eat each other. OK, that makes sense. Do you people even listen to yourselves? This stuff is monumentally stupid, I cannot comprehend how anyone believes this crap.

[@ricoyochanan]

God tells us why suffering and death are part of life. The whole creation is under the bondage of decay, Rom 8:20,21. Rom 5:12. God knows all about death and suffering: Phjil 2:5-8 Also an atheist can't complain about evil, since there is no God, evil is just an opinion.

[@volkerbrinkschulte5169]

Fry does not complain about evil, he is only answering a really stupid question. Christians like to ask the question "What if you are wrong?". But they are not smart enough to ask these question to them self.

[@jeremymead8546]

​@@volkerbrinkschulte5169of course we are. If we are wrong all that happens is that we have tried to live kinder more compassionate less selfish lives that we otherwise would have. As opposed to believing anything goes and that right and wrong are merely what is contemporarily fashionable.

[@neimanmario]

The answer is oh! so simple! There is no God. Because if there were one, he would either be Not All Powerful, or Not All Good! It's sad to see a grown up man, apparently intelligent, spewing such nonsense as Mr. Meyer does in this video. Slowly but surely religions and belief in a Creator is becoming more and more a thing of the past and humanity is inexorably moving towards rationality and abandoning fantasies, myths and supernatural occurrences. The True Age of Enlightening is Dawning!!

[@sidpheasant7585]

Your utopian description does not seem to match up in any way whatever with the 2020s that I am looking at! People are in fact so desperate for supernatural occurrences that they are about to have a great deception foisted upon them whereby what are actually d*m*ns are going to be presented in one way or another as advanced aliens, or at least the machines made thereby. In this case, "rationality" will be just powerful enough to weaken and disable people into accepting and welcoming something actually irrational and actually supernatural. As somebody with a science PhD, I of course had a long love affair with the rationality you describe; but most people do not go for it in any way, and at the very least they are INFINITELY inclined to conflate issues - something that has assumed plague proportions in our times. On the other hand, one might show sympathy (as Jesus would always expect us to), since the "captured" science we now see has prostituted itself out of the noble search for truth in the universe, for example insisting for long that a certain virus we all know of DID NOT come from the obvious source, even though any rational person could and can see the overwhelming likelihood that it did. I now deploy terms I never believed I would, i.e. "mainstream science" and "mainstream media" because both supposed sources of truth-seeking in our civilised world are so couched in dogma that they do NOT show the necessary open-mindedness, and do not take an interest in anomalies that stare them in the face. They ignore a great deal that goes on... Gobekli Tepe - and Tas Tepeler in general - could have generated two possible reasonable reactions in the monolith of "mainstream science". Either that monolith could have collapsed in the face of overwhelming truth and the need for humility; only to start again from scratch; or it could have adjusted and adapted in a far-reaching way on the basis of a great deal of humble pie being eaten. The reaction we do see is 2 parts gaslighting and 8 parts doing the best it can to take no notice! Typical. The same kind of approach is needed as we (open-minded people) go further and further in appreciating that reductionist science, be it physics or genomic biology, takes us into a kind of ridiculous chaos that does not explain anything. Holistic science might do a bit better, but every scientist worth his or her salt is desperately determined to specialise. But is butter good for us or not? After 70 years of researching it in minute detail, science is so messed up that it is NOT actually in a position to tell us. Can't deal with the big stuff, can't deal with the prosaic stuff either! of course, most science works most of the time in the world we see around us, but - for example - animal behaviour (as developed by a very few rather privileged and often rather cruel white guys on the basis of almost no sample size at all) is being trumped again and again by the simple expedient of what animals do being filmed endlessly and sent on to KZbin. Five minutes with those excerpts - quite often humorous - and we see PLENTY that mainstream animal-behaviour science CANNOT readily explain AT ALL. Science works, but Father, Son and Holy Spirit are beyond it if they so choose. Evil exists too. Yet the rationality and abandonment of fantasies and myths that you talk about is the one that makes MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE celebrate Halloween (as a bit of "substance- and darkness-fuelled fun for all the family that of course does not mean anything") while being a bit too "rational" to go into a church and say thank you on December 25th, during what the Americans now call "holidays" as opposed to Christmas. It's a kind of chaos, but NOT even-handed at all. Irrational when it suits because of some superficial allure of sin (underpinned by lies and chaos), but super-rational when it comes to the side of goodness. Precisely the same could be seen at work at the Eurovision Song Contest, as people bent over backwards (maybe literally) to excuse away open witchcraft in several of the songs. This is the fantasy-abandondinng world you claim we now have? Sure, Jesus can be abandoned by many as a fantasy, the beloved Holy Spirit still more so (despite all the beautiful things He does for us), but "Bambie Thug" singing a song called "Doomsday Blue" whose first words are an ancient spell or curse ... is explained away as ultra-modern and ultra gender-aware for our times. As a scientist I was a bit short on faith before being Born Again in a very tangible way that had measurable effects on me. God was kind enough to give me an abundance of evidence that curtailed my rationality very nicely. Now I post online and speak for Him, and especially for the beloved Holy Spirit - the one who is with us (and in us) in the present era, and is very active in the world, and tangibly so - even though (as we read in 1 John 5:19) this world (not the same as the Earth, of course) does belong to the D*v*l - something that is abundantly clear in the 2020s for anyone with eyes to see. Now I have them, thank God.

[@zmijoguz]

Is this some sort of "Light Bearer" invocation? :D The age of Enlightening is teaching us that there is nothing out there but darkness. That we are insignificant, meaningless, fleeting specks of dust. I choose not to believe that! The source (or cause) of our world is not within our world (or realm). Even a rational atheist should recognize and acknowledge that. Until we step out of this world, we cannot understand it. Until then, we can only choose to believe or not believe, and live accordingly.

[@neimanmario]

@@zmijoguz You say: The age of Enlightening is teaching us that there is nothing out there but darkness. That we are insignificant, meaningless, fleeting specks of dust." The answer is YES, you got it. That is exactly how it is. And I am at perfect peace with it. You prefer to have "faith" meaning believing in something without any evidence, whatsoever. Your choice, be happy with it. I rather be rational and use the brains that evolution provided me to expect evidence before making any judgement. Until that evidence manifests itself I a a non believer. Cheers.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@zmijoguz "I choose not to believe that" So you believe because you're scared of reality. Right, got it; thanks for being honest.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@zmijoguz " we can only choose to believe or not believe," Incorrect; those of us with more logical minds (and they don't even have to be that logical) CANNOT choose to believe illogical, immoral, inconsistent (with themselves and observable reality) infantile myths and legends that are observably corrosive. I got taken to church from the year dot, and as soon as I was old enough to properly understand the crap being preached, the bible was anathema to me. I couldn't believe that shite if you paid me £1 million a year to do so.

[@MajorTom546]

Love the opening line “great comedian.” 😂

[@BubbleGendut]

The lion will lay down with the lamb and so starve to death, what utter tosh the guy talks.

[@dagwould]

You are clearly uneducated as to the text of one of the most magnificent works of literature in the canon of world great texts. I talk about the book authored by the ancient Jewish writer Isaiah. More full of realism and hope than a whole brigade of Frys.

[@BubbleGendut]

@@dagwould Text written by some peasant thousands of years ago. And what makes his apparent claims True? How does he know truth? He doesn't! just like any other member of the Human Ape species.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

Why mock? Why not learn?

[@ulfingvar1]

Agree. Even as a symbol for peace (which it clearly is) it is dumb as fuck.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@dagwould Which version of Isaiah are you referring to? The biblical one, or the DSS one from a millennia earlier, that differs, including showing clearly the polytheistic nature of those who made up the crap that christians are supposed to believe?

[@DominicScott-s6h]

When there are people at gay pride saying “Fxxk your God and fxxk His son” and there are people who don’t believe in Him despite the life He has given them and all of the pain that He has gone through trying to save them, tell me - who are the evil ones?

[@fiachramaccana280]

God is focused on saving your soul and granting you eternal life. If that means your flesh suffers in this life then so be it. The bible/Church teaching talks over and over about the impermanence of flesh. Which is saying basically that its not that important to God. This is the reality that some Christians/ followers of other religions struggle to explain to non believers. Because if you are a non believer then by definition your flesh/existence on this planet is 100% of everything. And thus the suffering of the flesh seems random and cruel. This is compounded by the fact that comparing our brief existence here to eternal life is simply unimaginable to most of us and therefore many Christians avoid making that direct comparison. In fact its hard to go there because there is a harsh message contained therein for the short term. However if you step back and reflect the first two sentences above is the answer to the question.

[@thomaswayneward]

Good post

[@mariaquiet6211]

People don't have to be Christian to believe in an afterlife. Spirituality is kinda a bottomless pit of pondering. Possibilities only limited by your own imagination. Even those who don't believe in an afterlife don't have to limit their existence to flesh only. Douglas Adams was an atheist and he created a whole universe that was hilarious and thoughtful.

[@colinshaw3326]

The universe, doesnt need anything from humans,unhinder it, and its laws can work for us.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

The Old Testament god Yahweh, the father of Jesus is evil. He said so himself.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

Where did he say that? I mean, it's strongly implied, with verses such as those from Numbers 31 (murder everyone except the underage girls, keep them for your s*x slaves) and Ezekiel 20: "Da Israelites woz da bad peeps, so Ah made dem burn deir babiez. Respek ma Authoritah!" I suppose there's Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things.” And Amos 3:6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the lord hath not done it?” Although some claim that the word "evil" has been mistranslated, and should be something a bit milder, but it doesn't really help their argument much.

[@anonymussssssssss]

He never answered the question. His response was wholly irrelevant.

[@antongmeidell8564]

Either you did not understand him , or you need to see the video again

[@dagwould]

I like Fry's approach: adopt the language and concepts of theism which you deny to complain about it. His comedy at its best. Jeeves couldn't have done better. Perhaps he's have more credibility if he relied on atheist concepts, like 'we're all reorganized worm dung, and there is no purpose or significance to life'.

[@davemaverick8438]

only thing god doesnt know is mans decision, it can be influenced but thats the devils job, but main goal is that soul goes back to source

[@BonusHole]

Darwin's theory states that these eye burrowing insects are the result of millions of years of evolution and the children are not fit enough to deserve eyes if they are vulnerable to them. Why haven't these deficient kids evolved immunity to eye eating bugs? If Fry rejects the existence of God because bad things happen, he reject existence itself which evidently involves suffering, along with rejecting all the other theories as to how existence got here. If God cannot exist because bad things happen, Fry cannot believe in Darwin's theory of evolution because within that, bad things happen.

[@RobertEWaters]

"Risk" is the wrong word. As Meyer observes, the question is whether human agency is worth the price. How about it? Would a human race of robots have been a better option?

[@landaucorl5390]

A human race of robots may exist on some other planet, what do we know? I guess the answer to the question will be given after finding out which race destroys itself first?

[@stevemak8620]

What a crock. My cousin died at 11 years old from leukemia. It was an horrific, years long, agony filled, family destroying, childhood death. Try as Dr. Meyers might to explain it away, there is no holy justification for childhood suffering. None. Zero.

[@CSUnger]

Didn’t seem like he was trying to explain it away. He seemed to be saying that we don’t really know why God allows it other than the principle of a “fallen” world but how it fits into everything, he seemed to be saying that we really can’t know. That’s what I got from his “backstory” point.

[@timothykeith1367]

Suffering tells us that judgment awaits all - whether we were relatively good or not. God can raise the dead and cancel evil - which he will do.

[@andrewgallegos8316]

I’m sorry to hear about your loss, it is unfortunate that you and your family had to experience this. I will point this out though. Everyone who is alive is subject to one day die, everyone who is alive is subject to suffer at some point in their life. Anyone who has ever lived has experienced this. What he points out is that this was not God’s original design. There was never supposed to be any of this, sin entered the world and created catastrophic suffering in the whole world. What the Bible is, is the redemptive story of how God makes a way to redeem this fallen world so that death and pain and suffering could be no more. If the Bible is true, which I believe it is and the evidence suggests, than death is only one side of eternity!! To put this into perspective as an example when neonates are circumcised they are given little or no analgesic for the actual procedure, the area contains many nerve endings so the pain is quite excruciating and traumatic. Yet despite the deep pain and traumatic nature of the procedure as adults one does not remember this pain at all. In fact it is not even a memory for most. For the case of your little cousin, if the Bible is true than that suffering that he went through is so far removed from his memory from the eternity he will spend in the presence of God’s light, that it is as it never took place. What is truly unfortunate is that if you don’t believe in God, than you believe that all that your cousin went through was for nothing, no reason at all. It had no purpose, it had no meaning, and only serves as a horrid memory for you and your family. BUT, if God exist, which again the evidence suggests, than such a God could allow such tragedy and use it for good, for redeeming people, for healing people, for allowing people to come to salvation. I will tell you that it wasn’t meaningless, it wasn’t purposeless, God has used and will continue to use it to bring about his plan for salvation and healing for the world. One last point on this and suffering. The Bible talks about the key piece in the redemption of world is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus lived a sinless life of innocence and purity, yet he suffered, and suffered a horrible tragic death in addition to the mental suffering of abandonment by those closest to him. Yet the Bible tells us that because of his suffering sacrifice the redemption of the world came about! Your 11 year old cousins was probably very beautiful and innocent and pure as most young ones are, and he suffered and had a tragic death, but if the Bible proves anything with the story of Jesus is that God is able to turn horrible situations into amazing redemptive opportunities. 100% without a doubt your cousins life and anyone who suffers is an opportunity for God’s power to be made manifest and his healing plan for EVERYONE on the planet to take place. It wasn’t meaningless and although the pain stings and is horrible there will be a day when we will all stand in amazement of how God used an amazingly hopeless situation and used it to heal.

[@irenehartlmayr8369]

@@stevemak8620 Human arrogance is revealed here. Suffering is a part of life. There does not need to be any " holy " justification for it. Or any other one. And humans are not the only forms of life that suffer. Earth is not paradise.

[@rudysimoens570]

@@timothykeith1367 why doesn't "he" do it right now? After all, "he" is supposed to be almighty and all loving! That is totally incompatible with the concept of an all loving god! A god doesn't exist but if such an "entity" would exist in reality it would be a CELESTIAL MONSTER!

[@Andybaby]

Spoiler: he doesn't answer the question

[@larrycarter3765]

There are no GODS!

[@Elhardt]

Since you seem to have access to some secret knowledge the rest of the world doesn't, then provide proof to your statement. If you can't do that, then you're simply acting like a disobedient screaming child.

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

Indeed, there is only the one true God.

[@kye4216]

@@lysanderofsparta3708So he is responsible for all the suffering?

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

@@kye4216 Only if you are a five-point Calvinist.

[@jacksmith8466]

This is the doctrine that "God is either good or He is mysterious". It's simpler to do without the existence of God. Sometimes good things happen, sometimes shit happens.

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

Lots of atheist trolls getting triggered by this video.

[@summergivens242]

And why not ?

[@BubbleGendut]

Why are Atheists Trolls because they disagree? Very unchristian name calling & judgement but typical Christian superiority

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

@@summergivens242 Indeed, they have no arguments; they just try to harass and browbeat everyone with their emotional and psychiatric problems.

[@CarmenVeranda]

An argument that is both circular and evasive, kudos.

[@GeoCoppens]

Stephen Fry has it all damn right!!!

[@thomaswayneward]

You convinced me.

[@ricobonifacio1095]

If there is no God there is no knowledge of Good or evil, so why is cancer or insects tht borough evil at all, right? No God, there is no moral order and chaos reigns. So he is trying to use words hos belief system doesn't believe in. Can't be done, sorry.

[@ExpatriatePaul]

What a pathetic, irrelevant response, seriously he might as well have just said "god works in mysterious ways" which is easily one of the biggest BS copouts of all time.

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

What a pathetic, irrelevant comment. You clearly missed the point or just weren't paying attention.

[@renierramirez9534]

You aren't free to say that. You are a moist robot. You have no free agency if you are an atheist, aren't you?

[@johanduplessis4281]

They all sound psuedo smart untill they have to start explaining “scripture”😂. Then they just sound desperate, and utterly unconvincing.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

I invite you to study the Bible, and then you will know the truth.

[@ExpatriatePaul]

@@ryleighloughty3307 LOLOLOLOLOL, yeah I'm gonna pass on your version of the truth.

[@OneLostWalker]

It was Gay Byrne, Irish broadcaster

[@onceamusician5408]

Stephen Fry could do what Job did in the Bible, and what in my own smaller way I also did, he could take it up personally with God himself. but even such miniscule humility as a pragmatic awareness that he might be wrong and God might be right is apparently more than Fry can muster he is happy with his own answer, not because it is an answer but it is in his opinion an unanswerable excuse unanswerable because in fact he and his like do not WANT an alternative answer or do not even have the pragmatic sense to know that may be they NEED it as a former atheist myself i have been there done that so I am not impressed with his straw man arguments

[@JonJon72112]

Something about Meyer's logic that seems iffy.

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

What exactly?

[@onesimusamadi505]

He's not making sense at all 😂

[@octapc]

Iffy? 😂 nothing, he says, says fact. Logic doesn't necessarily mean fact.

[@daveatkin7557]

It was complete nonsense and didn't actually answer what was said. 99% of people who watched was because of Stephen Fry not these deluded people.

[@lysanderofsparta3708]

@@daveatkin7557 And yet, you cannot provide any specific details to back up your statement.

[@unknowntexan4570]

There is no possible universe without chaos unless it is purely static. So, the choice is "creating" versus "not creating" at all. It is impossible for God not to create since imagination is inherently in his nature.

[@davidkubitzki8082]

As agents of free will, we have the choice and power to do good or to be totally selfish and horrible. A horrible person wouldn't care that their chemical plant poisons the drinking water and causes bone cancer in children, or that the living conditions of the poor around them are so bad that they have to deal with eye eating bugs. The point is that we are made in God's likeness and can choose to do good, and we have the ability to stop and fix these things, but choosing to be evil stops that. We could have fixed these issues in every corner of the earth so many times over for ourselves that it's revolting that these problems exist. People need to stop taking the lazy way out, blaming god for all the bad and realize it's people who choose to do what's evils' fault for allowing this crap. It's every single person's responsibility to ensure that as an individual, household, town, country ect. We do what's good and help eachother, and when we don't, terrible things are the reward we give ourselves. When bad things happen, it's because at some point someone knew better than to be a selfish asshole and said "I don't care, I'm looking out for number one!" At the cost of those around them. This world is a proving grounds for you to educate yourself, come to fill yourself with knowledge of the world around you, and decide what you will prove to be. In a degrading world with bad, did you align yourself with good and work towards riding yourself of sin, and make an effort to learn just how much your creator does care about you and how well he rewards those who come to him, and choose to work to be righteous to honor him and earn his free gift of everlasting life? Or just blow it off and decide one life lived just for me is good enough? People's free will and actions made the bed we all lay in. God just gave us the bedroom. I encourage anyone that made it this far to please read the bible and research also what good men like these have learned from it. Apply its teachings to your life so you can see the positive changes it brings to your life and to those around you. Worship God, and praise him and his son Jesus Christ who died for our sins

[@miguel-claudiacollado8874]

Great commentary!

[@Mrz-sb1hw]

There's so many religions which one is right and is it true or false.

[@hafizmalik335]

Buy an english translation of Quran ....start and finish.

[@dagwould]

All religions that place the locus of the resolution of the human condition in the context of the formation of that condition are screwed from the get go, including atheism and materialism, in which there is no resolution but just a shrug of despair or dull indifference All religions ( and philosophy for that matter) are attempts to deal with the evil and suffering in life, but most fail because they stay within the domain of the problem The resolution has to come from out side the 'system of despair' to have any chance of validity and effectiveness. Thus the incarnation of the creator in Yeshua of Nazareth. What could be more magnificent than the Creator who is a person being the ground of being...a darn sight better than dirt, which is the atheist cul-de-sac of resignation.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

Protestant Christianity is the one true religion because it reveals the truth-God comes to his children to redeem them.

[@lindaulliott]

There is only one true religion and its Christianity

[@Thomas.Pferns]

@@lindaulliott No, Zeus is the one and olny.

[@CSUnger]

It’s a good question but I just never had a problem with it. (The question, not the evil) Evil just is. So is Good. It never occurs to me to shake my fist at God over it. I can try to understand it and perhaps even do my part to reduce it as much as it falls to me to be able to do about it, but to use it as an argument against God never occurs to me

[@CSUnger]

I’d have to say that it is anything that upsets the working of things towards a satisfactory conclusion that is not inherent in the thing it upsets.

[@CSUnger]

Or intrinsic

[@martinbebow9190]

The answer is simple. God tests his servants. We are spiritual beings. What happens to our bodies is unimportant

[@martinbebow9190]

@matthewphilip1977 unimportant in a discussion of the existence and nature of God. The child’s affliction is an opportunity to exercise our compassion and intellect. If nothing bad ever happened to us we would vegitate

[@martinbebow9190]

@matthewphilip1977 foolish comment

[@martinbebow9190]

@matthewphilip1977 if you are really interested and not just joking this world is much different from the next in that in this world we can work out our own salvation. In the next it is all God’s mercy. Hell is just being turned away from God and living in the shadow of our ego. These attempts to justify not believing in God are just ways to avoid acknowledging God

[@martinbebow9190]

@matthewphilip1977 why don’t you? It’s clear as day. I have arguments you just have jokes and fake outrage

[@martinbebow9190]

@matthewphilip1977Godel’s Incompleteness theorem. Draw a circle around the universe. The theorem says what is contained within the circle cannot account for what is in the circle. You need axiom outside the circle. This shows that materialism cannot account first the universe. There must be something that transcends it. There is also the information contained in DNA that cannot be accounted for by any physical or chemical laws

[@irenehartlmayr8369]

What a silly idea to argue against the idea of a God because some children have bone cancer....utterly idiotic. Thats a perfect example of a construed accusation that has no intelligent basis whatsoever. Just like the " Show trials " in dictatorships....and so many silly people that can't see through this strategy....😮

[@tajhoward8098]

If God is all powerful and all knowing and good as all Christians insist that he is then it is a very effective argument because it shows he knows about it, he can do something about it, and yet he does not so he is not good. Or he is good, he knows about it, but he can't do anything which makes him less than all-powerful. Any way you slice it, it's just one more thing that undermines the fallacy that is the Abrahamic religions.

[@irenehartlmayr8369]

@@tajhoward8098 Its not the fallacy of the Abrahamic religions,its the fallacy of human judgement that is at work here. Another proof of that. Just because there is no paradise on earth does not mean that the fallacious human judgement about religion and God is right. All one has to do to realise that,is to THINK intelligently. Something that the greater part of humanity is incapable of...! Including many scientists.

[@voornaamachternaam6159]

"I had to learn it the hard way, I had to learn it the yahwey, Yahwol, you're in bootcamp and Red will rip you a new asshole, So watch out, don't get mad Love your parents and be a good lad, The true Father waits for you with Christ to turn back home, You won't be stuck anymore, prisoned under this dome. Don't fall for the blue genie with his 3 wishes from hell, Be without harmartia, be like William Tell, His aim was true and all was well. Now i bid you a good day, To our Father in heaven we pray."

[@robertbeniston]

1.13 Frys statement lacks knowledge. He has no idea what the state of reality is or its past history so how can he understand evil. He also does not know why Christ died for us. I suggest he learns about the truth first before forming opinions. The point is: we are living under the influence of a rebellious spirit being and God is carrying out a rescue effort. Stephen Meyers view is reasonable.

[@brianbridges8124]

a rebellious spirit being that was put in our design by God, he designed us to have a strong desire towards sin, and then gets angry when we partake in it, that's just absurd as it is monstrous. there would be no need for a rescue effort by God if he simply designed us to not feel any pleasure from engaging in this rebellious behaviour, instead he designs our bodies to release highly pleasurable endorphins when we partake in it, its really simple if you truly don't want humans to sin, then don't make it so fucking enjoyable to them. problem solved, imagine if praying to god was as pleasurable to us as sex? why not? why wouldn't God make us happiest when we're doing things his way and miserable when were straying from him, instead he does the opposite and following all his rules is mundane and boring, and sinning is far more enjoyable..... it doesn't make any sense for a god who despises sin more than anything to then create his favourite creation with a strong proclivity towards the thing he hates....and then gets angry at them...its all a it stupid and childish to be honest and sounds like a story very ignorant goat herders wrote thousands of years ago.

[@brianbridges8124]

a rebellious spirit being that was put in our design by God, he designed us to have a strong desire towards sin, and then gets angry when we partake in it, that's just absurd as it is monstrous. there would be no need for a rescue effort by God if he simply designed us to not feel any pleasure from engaging in this rebellious behaviour, instead he designs our bodies to release highly pleasurable endorphins when we partake in it, its really simple if you truly don't want humans to sin, then don't make it so fucking enjoyable to them. problem solved, imagine if praying to god was as pleasurable to us as sex? why not? why wouldn't God make us happiest when we're doing things his way and miserable when were straying from him, instead he does the opposite and following all his rules is mundane and boring, and sinning is far more enjoyable..... it doesn't make any sense for a god who despises sin more than anything to then create his favourite creation with a strong proclivity towards the thing he hates....and then gets angry at them...its all a it stupid and childish to be honest and sounds like a story very ignorant goat herders wrote thousands of years ago.

[@davidpayne8413]

I assure you Fry is educated and knows what he is talking about

[@robertbeniston]

@@davidpayne8413 I agree with you. He is intelligent and educated but that is not what I was writing about. If you believe that the spirit world does not exist and we evolved, then the world is as it is. Time and chance and human behaviour affect us all, whether that behaviour hurts us or not. What I was referring to was the nature of reality. What reality does Fry believe he is living in as apposed to the one that he is living in? If he is correct then his world view is correct but if he is wrong and God exists and sets the moral standards and the question is asked-why does God allow evil? Then that question needs answering. There is an answer that involves understanding the history of what has happened in the past of which Fry knows nothing because he does not believe in that reality. It in part concerns free moral agency and the ability to choose as apposed to being automatons. To live correctly requires both knowledge about how to live and the ability to choose to live a certain way. Would you want to live in a way that benefits you and others but it is programmed into you and you cant choose, or would you prefer to choose to live a certain way even if others choose differently?

[@joseph317]

We are not told a lot but we are told that man was told not if you eat of the tree of good and evil but when you eat of it!

[@stevemak8620]

Apparently we were not told a lot about sentence structure and punctuation.

[@joseph317]

@stevemak8620 it's Eve not Steve!

[@predragraos-k5r]

First question: what is evil? How any serious talk is possible without definition of terms? Is this to be burned alive, of having 100ft bit yacht bt not having a 200ft one? World without evil is logical impossibility. And finaly, God eliminates all past evils by his love in afterlife. When mother hugs her crying child, all pains are forgoten. Just imagine happines of blind man opening his eyes - and in such a world! Believing in God is not just believing in his existence, but in his loving wisdom as well. For a kid, math is evil supreme. Mumy, why there are numbers in this world! Never forget, God is not only king of the Universe, but loving and caring Father in first place or, more to the point, parent. And good parenting is no alowing children to command their parents against their good advice. Such truths are not in old books, but in life around us.

[@Nora-qh1gf]

Fry sounds very angry at a God he believes doesn't exist.

[@alanburgess7998]

Like all unbelieving people, Steven Fry loves to blame the God, he does not believe in, can Steven Fry do better. I don't think so.

[@Light90u]

Sounds just as right you calling him good for supporting Ukraine megalomaniac

[@davidmitchell6117]

God took a risk? - Why?

[@Army4Runner]

Love. The risk associated with free will is the freedom to choose to love God. Or to reject Him. A love dictated by force is not love at all. It is a life of mindless servitude. Ever heard the phrase, “if you truly love someone you have to let them go”? The same applies here. God loves you so much he created you with the ability to return love with love, or to return with sneering hatefulness.

[@haitaelpastor976]

@@Army4Runner God is doing quite an awful job trying to make us love him.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@Army4Runner "A love dictated by force is not love at all." Well done, you've shown what nonsense the bible is. I've long said that the Mafia are infinitely better than your sick gods. The Mafia: "Pay us da protection money, or we breaka your legs and burna your business, capiche?" Your gods, "Pray to me or I burna youse, I BURNA YOUSE FOREVER!" Only the Mafia are more reasonable, as at least they prove that they exist before making unreasonable demands. Also, it's not surprising that they sound similar, as Rome and Sicily are not a million miles apart.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@Army4Runner "or to return with sneering hatefulness" It's amazing that you can't see that YOU are the one massively insulting any REAL God(s) that might (unlikely though it seems) exist? The torah, bible and qur'an all *insult* any god, or gods, that _might_ exist. These books assign not only human attributes, _but the WORST of human attributes._ Their gods are portrayed as ignorant, immature, insecure, inconsistent, incompetent, immoral, illogical, capricious, petty, narcissistic, idiotic, jealous (seriously, what the hell would a *GOD* have to be jealous of? The very notion is ludicrous, to say the least), vengeful, wrathful sadistic, overbearing, overcontrolling, unimaginative, creepy and generally pretty shit. The _claims_ that their gods are in any way good, loving, compassionate, merciful, forgiving, etc are _completely HOLLOW claims,_ made by people with no true understanding of these qualities. Instead, these gods are clearly merely the reflection of the deeply flawed _men_ who made them up, complete with those flaws. And they don't even consider claiming that their gods have a sense of humour or compersion.

[@stevemak8620]

Damn good question...

[@charliebrownie4158]

Whenever I hear about a celebrity who decides their station in life, no matter if they're somewhat brilliant or quasi so. I found that people who fall into those categories who wish to influence people by going outside of their sphere of knowledge, they show themselves to be lacking severely. One huge example of this was when Jonas Salk who said to have made up a vaccine to destroy polio, in 1987 at the height around the height of the AIDS epidemic he came out and said that he was letting people know who were dying of AIDS or if they were homosexuals that they should consume a lot of vitamin C like over 10,000 units a day. He claimed that it would help them to fight the effects of AIDS. But the actual researchers and chemists and such that we're working on making a vaccine to destroy AIDS their answer to that wasn't telling Mr Salk that he should stick to the categories that he knows himself but that he doesn't know anything about what the AIDS virus was or the kind of things that could combat the illnesses that he was referring to. The issue of Nazis talking about being the Master Race, actually is very laughable. It's laughable because so many people in the in the upper strata of the Third Reich was people like Joseph Goebbels who had so many health problems he had deform parts of his body that included his spine he had webbed toes, it's likewise funny if they were going to get rid of all things according to the same Eugenics that America was waist deep in following that quackery no different than the medicines people could order from the Sears Catalog cure for alcoholism which was 3 parts morphine. Carl Sagan really showed to me the kind of deceptive reasoning that science will and have done. Carl knew in decoding the genes and DNA RNA information within those parts of all life, the mathematical formula of life coming about by chance was less likely than throwing paper and ink into a washer then dryer and wind up with War and Peace novel. His answer was that life came from aliens who brought it here from the stars. But it still ignores the law of first part. Who made the aliens. And no the Dawkins among others thinking they were so smart by saying the universe created itself. How many people went home to find a pizza cooked and made correctly sitting on their table after "making" itself. I've seen Stephen talking to scientifically minded people who not only believe in God but also using empirical evidence to do so, instead of just well crafted words. I'm of a mind now that if there are people who are going to debate people in colleges and universities, I find that a waste of time. I've never seen one of them where the student didn't behave in any way other than sounding like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum. Always with the yelling and talking over their answers. And BTW I'll be pushing government groups to remove tax dollars going to those institutions. As far as I'm concerned Ronald Reagan warned against a dictatorship. But as he spoke about it is exactly what is going on right now. Without communism having complete control over all the printed media and news reports they could not have sustained themselves against the White Russians. Likewise without Joseph Goebbels and him having complete control over propaganda the Nazis couldn't have gone as far as they did. And right now the only political party that the news media absolutely refuses to do any kind of research into what's actually going on with the people and showing the things going on that everybody knows it's going on but doesn't seem to give a s*** about. The Democrats can do anything but if the Republicans do just a little bit of that something sort of it's one of those real perverse things. Especially when they have one group that has 150 million slush fund to pay for people who who cry rape or abuse while being raped with broken arms or smashed up face. But if it's a Democrat that does that that's okay with the voters. It's a right-wing conspiracy that caused that to happen.

[@VincentCMercandetti]

God experienced suffering like mankind?? What a joke! Suffering for mankind results in months or years of pain and ends in disability, incapacitation, or death. Jesus just went right on ticking and sat at the right hand of the Father for eternal bliss. No freaking comparison!!

[@VincentCMercandetti]

@matthewphilip1977 First of all, Jesus's suffering lasted just 6 hours - most crucifixion victims suffered for much more time, many hours and even days. Secondly, Jesus spoke calmly 6 or 7 times until the end, so how incredible could his suffering have been?? Certainly NOWHERE near your made-up scenario. He only complained of thirst!

[@VincentCMercandetti]

@matthewphilip1977 He took upon himself all the sins of the world? To quote you: "You're assuming the accounts in the Bible are literally true."

[@VincentCMercandetti]

If Jesus took on ALL the sins of the world, why did the Jews and CHRISTIANS continue to offer sin sacrifices at their temple for the next 40 years ???

[@Explorethebook]

Atheists rail against God when they are themselves full of evil. God has made a provision to solve the problem of evil. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sin of humanity so that anyone who believes in Him will be saved and restored. Accept that solution and stop acting as if you were God or know more than Him! Isn’t it an absurdity if a clay port will say to the porter, What have you made? I like the way NLT puts it: “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their creator. Does the clay argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying ‘Stop,You are doing it wrong! Does the pot exclaim, ‘How clumsy can you be?’ How terrible it will be if a newborn baby said to his father, ‘Why was I born?’, or if he said to its mother, ‘Why did you make me this way’” (Isaiah 45:9-10). This is the state of all those who do not believe. Do not join them in their folly. There is no amount of atheism that will solve the problems of the world caused by the Fall. God has sent Jesus Christ to take away the sin of mankind and remove evil from their hearts. Bite the bullet! Accept Jesus as your Saviour. That will be the beginning of wisdom.

[@RationalRevelationsPodCast]

Do you or any here support parents of all other non-Christian religions to indoctrinate their own kids into their own religious beliefs? Even though according to Christianity, these children will suffer for eternity due to no fault of their own, other than believing, honoring, TRUSTING and respecting their parents, family and culture they grew up in.

[@kakhazviadadze]

When you read the books of the New Testament you have probably asked yourself many times: "Why is it that for 2000 years we have not seen the miracles that accompanied the Church of Christ in the first century as the New Testament describes them? Why is it that so-called preachers of Christ have to prove that Jesus really existed, while atheists have the audacity to deny the historicity or divine origin of Christ? Maybe because the Church of Christ ceased to exist after the first century. There is no Church as it is described in the books of the New Testament, but there are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and other Christian sects, claiming to be the Church, but not having that one thing that distinguishes the divine from the human and is characteristic only for the Church of Christ - the backing of the word with signs, that is, miracles (Mk 16:15-20). That is why part of the researchers doubt the historicity of Christ, and part of them do not mind to declare Him a real person, but an ordinary philosopher, a teacher. But even if Jesus was an ordinary philosopher, His disciples would have been ordinary followers of Jesus. And they would not have dared to write about the miracles that not only Jesus but also His disciples could perform. If in our time there were a Church as described by the authors of the New Testament books, where miracles are performed - healing the sick, prophesying, raising the dead - no one would doubt the historicity of Christ. Then all over the world there would be the same disputes as in the first century - Jesus is the Son of God or a false prophet who seduces the world with miracles. Find on youtube the audio message *"The Mystery of the Church of Christ"* . It reveals the prophecy of the disappearance and reappearance of the Church of Christ before the End of the World, giving hope to all who are sincerely seeking God and who are not lazy to think freely.

[@stevemak8620]

Well done.

[@nicholasconder4703]

Regarding the notion that if Jesus showed up today, preached and worked his signs and everyone would believe, you obviously did not see the interview with Richard Dawkins, who said, "If I heard God speaking from the clouds, I would think I was hallucinating. If Jesus came on the clouds of glory I would think it was David Copperfield doing a magic trick". It wouldn't matter WHEN Christ came to preach the Gospel, tons of people would still ignore it. The Jews, who were looking for the Messiah, ignored Jesus because "he was not the Messiah they were looking for". Something else I would add, God is NOT a carnival act - He performs miracles when and where they are NEEDED. Isn't what you are talking about the 2nd temptation of Christ? "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written, 'He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.'" (Luke 4:9-11) citing Psalms 91:12. To which Jesus said, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God". Many of the historians you talk about also ignore the fact that Jesus only taught for 3 years, and in a backwater region of a far-flung section of the Roman Empire. Rather like someone teaching in the Ozark Mountains or something similar. Travel in those days took days or weeks to reach the coast, then weeks to months to reach Rome or Athens. And that is IF they were interested in what just about everyone would have considered to be some hick back country Jewish philosopher who obviously could not compete with their superior Greek philosophers. The Church of Christ still exists. It is called the Roman Catholic Church. It has maintained all the teachings of Christ, and still weathers the storms that Hell casts against its gates (as Jesus said to Peter). So there is no "secret church of God". That is a snare and delusion created by Satan to steer people away from God, because someone says only they have "the real interpretation" or "secret knowledge". Those are traps of the devil. Catholic (and Orthodox) doctrine is the same as it was at the time of the Apostles, as proven by works from Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, from around AD100.

[@byrondickens]

No, it's because the miracle stories are metaphorical and symbolic, two things you people are incapable of understanding.

[@kakhazviadadze]

@@byrondickens Fortunately, friend, I can tell the difference between metaphor and direct words. How can the raising of Lazarus, the healing of the paralytic, and many other miracles performed by Jesus or the apostles be understood metaphorically when they are described directly?

[@stevemak8620]

@@byrondickens Miracle stories and symbols are what you turn to when you have nothing. This we both understand, and it can drive thinkers a bit mad when you use the miracle stuff , metaphorical or not. To a non-believer, miracles and symbols hold no weight. And now we see the use of 'ID' to explain away the holes in the Bible and the stories that you are selling. ID is just a story written backwards. The last chapters were obviously written first, then the rest was added in reverse order. I don't find any of it clever or convincing. I guess that the real question these days is whether or not we all can continue to get along.

[@philharris5848]

Theists love discussions like this because it supposes that God exists. It's always interesting just how many followers of faith usually believe in science until it contradicts their deeply held religious beliefs.

[@Roscoe0494]

I disagree, I think Meyer loves to talk about both science and religion and is happy to throw in the Bible if the question warrants it. This discussion takes science off the table because, as you point out, it assumes God's existence and nature. In other words Meyer is asked about his beliefs, religious or philosophical, assuming God exists. . Meyer always talks science and evidence in support of intelligent design which doesn't assume anything and doesn't necessarily contradict religion unless perhaps one's beliefs rule out a creator.

[@ivans8713]

It is crazy to me that somebody who considers himself atheist, who beleaves or, claims if u want, that your brain has no inteligence its just random processes without mind behind it accuesses religious people of being dumb and thinks he is more inteligent and smarter than them, yet again, his own worldview excludes being smart and inteligent because there is no such thing. its just random processes and deterministic forces. You get now why you worldview is selfdefiting from the start?

[@jimhughes1070]

Science?... You're proposing that science excludes a Creator?.. the sharpest minds on the planet, working on it for centuries, have been impotent in the task. One only needs to research the theories available from the various fields of science... And they all have one thing in common... "Theories"... And the claim that "someday they'll figure it out"... By all means continue your work!... But forgive us if we laugh because they can't bring themselves to the conclusion that the most plausible answer for the beginning of the universe is God... The most plausible answer for the beginning of Life... As science has shown us... Is God... The most plausible answer for the question... "Why aren't there millions and millions of intermediate species found in the fossil record?" Because it was all created at once.. by God. It is often stated that science is the pursuit of Truth... When one of the stated axioms is... "We cannot allow a Divine foot in the door" 😢... The reason there are theories abounding... Is because they don't have the answers two problems they claim to have "solved" by way of their "theories"... The majority of people could care less...so they don't pay attention to what's being said... So they are easily deceived...."while listening to the confession" 😎 The word theory (which is simply a guess dressed in a lab coat) slips right into the mind, because the word 'scientific' is placed before it... Never realizing, if it's a scientific theory... It wouldn't be a theory. The supposed science would have 'proven' the hypothesis... But it doesn't 😎 Next time you meet a scientist... Ask him the metric he used to determine all the different ages of the universe "scientifically determined" over the decades.... I remember when it was 100,000 years old 😎...(And not because I'm really really old 😭)... The answer is obvious, of course. Biologists realized that, for something like evolution to occur... They needed very long periods of time.... And the more they learned about biology 😎... The more time they "theorized" was needed... Geology astrophysics cosmology the list goes on... Every metric depends on "Evolution had to have happened"... Otherwise we're stuck with God! 😭🧐

[@ivans8713]

@@jimhughes1070 Well said Brother!

[@jimhughes1070]

@@ivans8713 An unexpected surprise!! 😂.. thank you sir! 🙏

[@mashah1085]

The Biblical God is evil. Genocide is evil...no excuses. 1st Samuel 15:3

[@georgeblackley6028]

God is not evil because no Gods exist except in the imagination of us naked apes.

[@nicholasconder4703]

Delete all after "evil", and you will be correct.

[@luisdasilva3879]

Blaming God for all evil is the easiest thing to do , now find solutions to resolve the evil , I don't want that , that's not for me . Of those people who criticize God why they don't stop all evil , how many of them are willing to help or contribute to helping these children ? Since the beginning of humanity , God warned us about what is good and what is not good for us and what we do , we ignore Him , We mocked Him , made fun of Him , we try to disprove and mocking the Bible His word and much much more for many years . 2000 years ago what we did to His son , we tortured Him , and prayed with nails on a cross where He said father forgive those who don't know what they are doing , how many people Jesus killed ? Not even one, on the contrary , Jesus resurrected people , healed the sick , performed many miracles , always in favor of helping others , Jesus taught us the word of God and what is good for us and what did we do with Jesus? Has anyone ever imagined the pain of getting nails stuck in their hands and feet ? of course not , but why we still blaming God after all God did for us ? It's easy to blame God now finding solutions for this problem , oh no , I'm going to ignore it , that's not for me . Everyone who blames God for all evil it means they assume they are better than God and if they are better than God why don't they find solutions to resolve all evil ?

[@pineapplepenumbra]

"Of those people who criticize god why they don't stop all evil" Are you on something?

[@luisdasilva3879]

​@@pineapplepenumbraI have helped a lot.

[@luisdasilva3879]

I don't mock GOD because I know that the problem of all evil does not come from Him but from us humans .

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@luisdasilva3879 The torah, bible and qur'an all *insult* any god, or gods, that _might_ exist. By following one of them you are *insulting* any REAL God(s) that might, unlikely though it seems, exist. These books assign not only human attributes, _but the WORST of human attributes._ Their gods are portrayed as ignorant, immature, insecure, inconsistent, incompetent, immoral, illogical, capricious, petty, narcissistic, idiotic, jealous (seriously, what the hell would a *GOD* have to be jealous of? The very notion is ludicrous, to say the least), vengeful, wrathful sadistic, overbearing, overcontrolling, unimaginative, creepy and generally pretty shit. The _claims_ that their gods are in any way good, loving, compassionate, merciful, forgiving, etc are _completely HOLLOW claims,_ made by people with no true understanding of these qualities. Instead, these gods are clearly merely the reflection of the deeply flawed _men_ who made them up, complete with those flaws. And they don't even consider claiming that their gods have a sense of humour or compersion.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@luisdasilva3879 The more power you childishly assign your mythical friends, the more culpable that would make them (if they were real, which they simply cannot be).

[@salampakistan3691]

We will certainly test you with a touch of fear and famine and loss of property, life, and crops. Give good news to those who patiently endure who say, when struck by a disaster, “Surely to Allah we belong and to Him we will ˹all˺ return.” Quran 2:155-156) Life is a test, the world and universe is a big exam room we are in.

[@ellisrowe363]

What makes people think they will be to demand answers from God?

[@RationalRevelationsPodCast]

what makes you think it exists?

[@ellisrowe363]

@@RationalRevelationsPodCast What makes you think He doesn't?

[@RationalRevelationsPodCast]

@@ellisrowe363 the burden of proof. Are you going to ask me to prove that pink fluffy unicorns don't exist? Or that an incredibly advanced alien race is not the cause of the existence of our shared universe? No? You are the one with the positive claim. Not me I'm asking where is the sound reasoned evidence?

[@RationalRevelationsPodCast]

What makes you think that this universe isn't caused by an incredibly advanced alien race. That deliberately made humans have different beliefs just to screw with them?

[@ellisrowe363]

@@RationalRevelationsPodCast Not going to ask you to prove anything. As individuals we look at evidence and make a decision, you are free to reject any/all evidence for God. What evidence would you accept as proof God exists?

[@77WATERSTONE]

If god gave freedom and free will etc it's not true free will as it can easily be taken away by him. True free will is not given by anyone or any deity. As for natural evil as this guy calls it was not a deity supposed to have created this nature according to the god squad? So if a deity created this nature Stephen Fry was right it is down to a deity if a deity existed. All this guy on the vid is doing is making excuses.

[@stevemak8620]

Waterstone is a genius.

[@77WATERSTONE]

@@stevemak8620 I love the smell of sarcasm in the morning. 😁🤣

[@Mr.S369]

And you chose your incarnation to experience 'complete' freedom, when? And given the foreknowledge of death requisite to this 'free' choice; why are you doing it?

[@sergeant5848]

Oh well. There's no saving some people.

[@sidpheasant7585]

The most bizarre aspect here (as at least one other poster has noted), is that the mockers and knockers and doubters and attackers hold God to higher standards than do those who believe in Him! They buy fully into the omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence and then single out one species (which they do not even bother to name ... it DOES have a name). They are straining at a gnat (or rather a nematode), but swallowing a camel. God does not exist because there is a parasitic nematode among the countless millions of species on what (even) David Waltham of RHUL calls the "Lucky Planet". David devotes chapter after chapter of his book to the almost impossibly unlikely coincidences that account for the Earth having soldiered on long enough to generate a species that can think enough to wonder why or how that is so. I write to David occasionally to ask him when he will deploy basic scientific technique via Ockham's Razor and say: the simplest of the explanations is that "God did it". That is particularly meaningful and pithy, since RHUL is a Egham, just a few miles from Ockham!!! [Of course those who believe notice such "coincidences" all the time]. A sensible person who is really knowledgeable about the Earth and cosmos after years of study [I DO fit that bill] is prone to be Born Again, as I was, because the desire to thank God for the wondrous planet we have just encourages that. God does not exist because Onchocerca is on our planet; or God does exist because that planet has somehow maintained "itself" for billions of years in a way that allows Onchocerca to be on our planet, along with millions of other species... Of course, I do NOT know why Onchocerca appears within creation; but I do think creation events have taken place - and that is the bigger picture. Of course (2), a person with a PhD in biology cannot exactly be a "Creationist" in the most negative connotation that that phrase has. But evolution - of planet and species - has proceeded in remarkably chancey-looking ways; and those chances pile up to such an extent (as David W. shows us) that at some point we just jump ship from science and seek a higher explanation. I KNOW Father, Son and (especially in our times) Holy Spirit can act beyond science. I know it because I experienced it. There may be a lot of gaps to fill in between my personal experience and experience of the cosmos and the Earth, but I have TOTAL faith that God is indeed the God of those gaps ... and those gaps are not as small as the mockers wanted them to be. Quite the opposite in fact. Without God to fill the gaps to explain our existence we are faced with something that is "all gap"...

[@tajhoward8098]

We don't buy into the omniscience, omnipresence, etc., we are just showing the logical inconsistencies with their myth. If you believe the Bible you can't pick and choose to believe some parts and not others because that would destroy the basis from which your beliefs stem. So we are taking the entire story and showing it cannot all be true, which then gives credence to our assertion that it is all man made rubbish and not divinely ordained. This is what is hilarious about churches that allow homosexuals to live guilt free among them. Homosexuals are depicted as some of the most base, deviant sinners possible in the Bible.

[@davidpayne8413]

sidpheasent - Christians claim that god is the highest authority - there can be no higher standard

[@sidpheasant7585]

@@davidpayne8413 The Bible does sometimes tell us that God regretted things; and a rather basic tenet to the Judaic aspects of faith is that God can be lobbied and argued with. Christians are meeker on that one, but then we have both Jesus and the Holy Spirit to plead our case.