Debt Collector Loses When it Can't PROVE it Owns the Debt

[@robs7060]

We need criminal charges against debt collectors who attempt to collect money erroneously. I've paid the same debt off to different agencies several times on several different occasions. The industry is racket

[@fpgaguy]

first mistake. pay them more than once.

[@patpatpat999]

Debt collectors are like someone who dumpster dives for an item, then takes it to the stores and demands a cash refund.

[@wolfman_jack]

Yeah, though it's legal , it reeks of sliminess. Creditors get to double dip, as they're insured for lose then sell the original debt to these greasy outfits who ,due to public ignorance and fear , make out like bandits.

[@RipliWitani]

Unsecured debt is a joke. You want me to pay? Lol I settle for 10% and my credit report cleans up Ina few years. Invest the 90% and you come out golden

[@canwejustloveeachother2550]

​@@RipliWitani Ummm, no. You can literally dispute it off of your credit report

[@benjaminfinlay829]

Ninety percent aren't answering the lawsuits? That makes me suspicious that a large proportion of them aren't being properly served.

[@wlbyrd1]

The only time most people become aware is if they get a detailed credit report.

[@Vazzini42]

The bigger story is that this only got corrected on appeal. These rubber stamping judges need a apot on the unemployment line.

[@mattmatt6572]

Idk I think she should just pay her bills

[@MatsuzoSF]

​@@mattmatt6572That's a wild thing to say regarding a situation you know next to nothing about.

[@mattmatt6572]

I know she has never denied owing the money. Only says they have no proof that particular collector holds the debt 👍🏿

[@MatsuzoSF]

@@mattmatt6572 No you don't, considering I highly doubt you have access to records on the proceedings. That and I would think the argument would be the same whether they misattributed the debt to her or she's just trying to exploit bad recordkeeping to get out of it, but I'm not a lawyer.

[@mattmatt6572]

​@@MatsuzoSFnope I have a life I'm not looking into this case just commenting on the story as told by Steve go get a life

[@dontcare563]

3 courts to figure this out? What does this say about our piss poor judicial system!

[@mattmatt6572]

They don't like freeloaders?

[@ImprobableGarage]

​@@mattmatt6572 This is literally a trial because they had no proof she had any connection to this debt. How is she a freeloader for refusing to pay a debt that is not theirs? How about you pay the debt? They has as much proof you owe it as her

[@matthewkreps3352]

That it works because this is why the appellate courts exist.

[@s1mph0ny]

@@mattmatt6572 they're bootlickers?

[@s1mph0ny]

@@matthewkreps3352 No it's not, appellate courts are for correcting errors of law, not obvious missed verifications of the facts.

[@JofoTubin]

PRA put a collection on my report for something I didn't owe. I ignored it for years. Then when I bought a house in 2022, my mortgage lender made me pay into escrow enough to pay PRA so I did. The closing attorney gave me a check to mail them. I burned it! I figured, fine, the closing attorney could keep the money but no way I was sending it to PRA. 6mo after closing, the closing attorney sent me a letter saying basically, "hey, they never cashed that check so here's your money back." BOOYA!

[@dtcdtc8328]

😂😂😂😂 thanks man, I have 3 disc herniations and a fractured vertebrae (thanks to an Illegal rear ending me at red light in 02) and today is one of those insufferable days of pain ( I swore off All narcs 12 years ago for pain) and you made me LOL and there's nothing better than that!

[@MandyPants1975]

That gave me a great chuckle. Thank you.

[@everythingpony]

But you burned it?

[@RT-qd8yl]

@@everythingpony You don't understand how checks work, do you?

[@DanaNelson-fd4fu]

That was clever ....attorney didn't have to reimburse you they could have just carried on about their business!

[@lamplighter5545]

When my mother died, I was appointed the administrator of her estate. Almost immediately, I received collection letters from several debt collectors regarding money that my mother allegedly owed. They were all 1 page with no attached documentation. I instructed my lawyer to send a response to each requesting documentation of the debt. He did this once per month until the estate was settled. only one debt collector provided documentation. They got paid. No one else did.

[@sunshine3914]

Unless your name was on the debt, you had no responsibility for the debt. My lawyer advised to throw away anything that wasn’t addressed to me.

[@lamplighter5545]

@@sunshine3914-- They could go after the estate. But once that was settled, they had no recourse. I think the fact that I had a lawyer made a big difference.

[@buggsy5]

For an estate, anything addressed to the deceased also needs to be considered for validity by the executor/administrator. @@sunshine3914

[@absurdengineering]

@@sunshine3914Depends on the state. In some states medical debts don’t die with the patient.

[@987654321wormy]

Same here, I had to settle my mother's estate. I received a debt collection letter stating my mother owed several thousand dollars in credit card debt. I knew for a fact that she didn't have any credit cards, so I contacted them for proof. They had confused her with someone else with the same name but different middle name who lived locally. I had to threaten the debt company with a lawsuit to finally get them to close the case.

[@russlehman2070]

I had a room mate who died owing several thousand in deliquent credit card debt. Becuase we had shared a phone number and address, I would get calls and notices from debt collectors. After awhile, I started answering the calls and informing the collectors that she was deceased. The calls would stop for awhile, then a few months later a new batch of debt collectors would start calling. It was pretty clear that, upon finding out that the debtor was dead, they simply sold the debt to another collector.

[@liabr00k3]

That's wild

[@chrisfleischman3371]

Yeah, I was thinking about how shady these people are in reselling debt that they may well know is impossible to collect.

[@liabr00k3]

@@chrisfleischman3371 Absolutely. Shocking they would do that.

[@everythingpony]

But how can you sell it?

[@DickWalz]

as soon as you hear “this is a recorded call” you say on that recording “you have the wrong number, never call here again!”

[@RetroAnachronist]

My ex wife went through this sort of thing. Tried to have a lawyer deal with it but on debts this small they all told her to just pay it, it wasn’t worth fighting. So she had to do it herself. Luckily she worked from home and we lived only a couple miles from the courthouse. The case kept getting rescheduled over and over, the debt company refused to prove the debt when she requested them to in the discovery process. They kept submitting summary judgement requests which she had to catch because they’d do it directly to the court and not tell her. Finally, after over a year of not ever standing in front of a judge, they sent her a form to agree to dismiss the case. She retyped it and changed the without prejudice to with prejudice, signed that and mailed it back to them. They signed it without noticing the change and submitted it. Done and gone.

[@LordMondegrene]

Dude, your wife is a badass paperwork ninja.

[@RetroAnachronist]

@@LordMondegrene I was certainly very proud of her work there. Ex wife now, needless to say she did the paperwork on that process for us. Hah.

[@jwill540]

​@@RetroAnachronist not surprising given divorce rates.

[@normiepuppet]

Next time file a motion to compel arbitration instead of waiting around for the court to act while the debt buyer tries to sneak summary judgements in

[@aherrera6182]

Crazy that she lost like 3 times when they couldn't produce a document with her signature

[@christopherkidwell9817]

Not crazy... par for the course for our legal system especially in state controlled by conservatives who LUUUUUURVE to assume that debt is always valid.

[@jrstf]

@@christopherkidwell9817 - Conservatives know that Trump's debt to NYC is not valid.

[@Elrog3]

@@christopherkidwell9817 Do you have evidence that political leaning has anything to do with this?

[@christopherkidwell9817]

@@Elrog3Yeah: Documentation over the past 30 years by various government and non-governmental consumer rights organizations that say that if you are in a conservative state, you had better hope no one steals your identity because they will allow these businesses to follow you TO YOUR GRAVE to get money from you that they are not entitled to. Difference between Alabama (where numerous 8 year olds back in 1990 were sued over credit card debt due to stolen identity) and Maryland, where the debt holders have to 'dot their I's and cross their T's' respectively.

[@patrickday4206]

Welcome to the Corporate States of America

[@richardpare3538]

If you can't actually show proper paperwork for a debt, then you don't have any right to collect that debt, period.

[@leo29hornsfan]

It's almost like those phony debt collectors who pose as attorney's or aka litigation making phone calls saying that you owe this much amount and we are serving a summons to your residence but if you make a payment then they will magically not show up and when you ask for proof they tell you thats for you and the courts to decide and won't give you any information. Yeah thats called a scam and these clowns sound like a scam as well.

[@ChillyJack]

I wish I could do my job entirely wrong as often as district/trial court judges do without any fear of losing my job or getting my pay docked.

[@tomkelly00]

Or cops!

[@BishopStars]

Most people are bad at their jobs.

[@cjburian1]

Courts of appeal have these issues, too. See how many times SCOTUS has reversed an appeals court ruling 9-0. That's such a brutal smackdown and blatant telltale of incompetence that it ought to trigger investigation of the judges involved.

[@ChillyJack]

@@cjburian1 And then there's Hawaii's supreme court, which just outright says they're going to ignore the Supreme Court's ruling.

[@AdmiralBlackstar]

Be a weather reporter.

[@philgunsaules2468]

This is one reason debt transference should be extremely regulated, if not outright illegal.

[@wolfman_jack]

Agree, it's quite slimy. At one time creditors would farm out collections to an agency that would work on fee percentage of the amount of debt to be collected. If a period of time past with no result , then court .

[@RipliWitani]

Credit cards will disappear. The scam only works if there are debt collectors willing to buy off bad debt

[@aeromedical6776]

You can’t take away a lenders right to sell off a legitimate debt if they feel they have no chance to collect it. They’d rather take 20 cents on the dollar and sell it than get nothing. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that this needs to be better regulated. An agency that buys a debt for 20 cents on the dollar is already making a substantial profit if they collect just 50% of the original amount. It’s the massive additional fees they tack on that makes this so slimy. I have very little sympathy for people who take out debt with little to no intention of paying it back. However they shouldn’t be made to pay back 3 to 4 times the amount of the original debt back because it got sold to another collector.

[@CherieMonique5]

You can’t see me but I’m giving this lady a ‘standing ovation’ from the seat of my car right now. Positive result on appeal filed pro se??? Wow!

[@jupitercyclops6521]

I see you!! I'm. Behind you. Don't forget to drive Ms twist

[@MeRiaNevaMynd]

Yep, very impressive!

[@1rotbed]

Read up on similar decisions for your court on Google Scholar to see what the court is looking for. Become familiar with the court rules of procedure and fit yourself within them to get relief you want, keep it simple, be concise, don’t miss any deadlines.

[@lightningdemolition1964]

I hope you are either in a convertible or really really short.

[@roxcyn]

I'm sure she used online resources. There are a LOT online about this topic.

[@trendel13]

The first Judge needs to be sanctioned.

[@rogerhargrave9952]

What kind of lower court accepts evidence not presented because it is confidential.? My gosh, that kind of baloney would make any lawsuit viable. " He said this and it's true, yet you can't see the proof because it's confidential." "Judge says ok to corporate conglomerate." It sure seems like big money owns these lower courts.?

[@tomw8647]

In VA, corporations own the government, namely mining, tobacco and energy. Courts are typically deferential to corporations regardless of the law....IMO

[@Richard-or9rt]

True, I would like to see an investigation on money and the judicial system. Money is found influencing everything from politics to medicine. The judicial system, considering its importance, must surely be corrupted too.

[@admthrawnuru]

Lower courts seem to have an establishment bias. They beleive government over anyone else, and companies over people. Obviously plenty of judges don't, but enough do that you often have to expect to appeal before getting a serious ruling.

[@youtubasoarus]

I don't think they can use confidential information that the defendant is not able to see during discovery. This sort of thing is nonsense. Both sides are allowed to see what the other is going to present in court.

[@Vanlifecrisis]

Its rubber stamping. These corpos file so many suits that the judges just rubber stamp them by default. Remember the court gets big business from filing fees from these corpos.

[@TravisMcMurray]

Portfolio Recovery is the sleaziest, most nasty debt collector out there. I’m glad they lost. I hope they keep losing.

[@Freedomthrufaith123]

Exactly

[@floydjohnson4915]

I remember during the '08 mortgage failures that Washington Mutual (WAMU) had the same problem. They had bought up a bunch of failed mortgages, but they were sloppy with their paperwork. Turned out WAMU was so disorganized that they couldn't produce any paperwork on thousands of cases because the files were in boxes, shrink wrapped on pallets in warehouses with no identification. So when the hearings were held, WAMU couldn't prove ownership of the mortgages.

[@PandorasFolly]

I used to work with a guy who has this happen to him sort of. His mortage wasn't bad though. Heis mrotgage just got traded by over 150 companies in a 3 year period and at some point between sloppiness, being traded multiple times in a day, and companies going out of business the mortgage companies loat whatever important proofs and documents were necessary to prove they owned the mortgage. The funniest part to me was midway through the court process the owning company sold the 300k$ mortgage for 10k$ to another debt collection company. Guy got his mortgage for free for some small tax payments to the IRS

[@Snarkbar]

@@PandorasFolly Nice!!! :)

[@randallsmerna384]

What then happened to the houses?

[@jeraldbottcher1588]

And as a result WAMU ended up failing and going the way of the Dodo

[@robertspray7472]

@@randallsmerna384if empty, they likely got sold for tax or other liens.

[@JimJWalker]

This happened to my mother-in-law who went to Stetson Law, but did not finish. She worked as a para-legal for 35 years. When Bank of America bought Countrywide in Florida in 2008, they did not do the "Doing Business As" as "Bank of America" in Florida for the Countrywide debts. They used "Bank of America NA", so my mother in law counter sued Bank of America claiming they had no standing, as BOA could not prove they held the note to her house. She eventually discovered every home foreclosed by BOA in Florida was fraudulent and "robo-signed". BOA could not prove that BOA NA, even existed (no president, ceo, or any real employees) when she deposed them. Eventually after firing SEVEN law firms fighting her, BOA gave her the house as the legal fees being incurred was higher than the value of the home. They made her sign an NDA about their fraud to hush her up.

[@TryHardNewsletter]

I don't really follow this. How could they not produce whatever documents Countrywide would have had. What do you mean "robo-signed". If "B of A NA" was on some piece of letterhead and the "NA" was an accident, why couldn't they just re-send the same document with "NA" removed? None of this makes any sense.

[@JimJWalker]

​@@TryHardNewsletter I got some further clarification from my mother in law. She was able to prove that BOA withdrew from the state of Florida as being "authorized to do business", she thinks it was tax related. BOA then had a notary after the fact "robo-sign" documents to hide they had withdrawn. BOA argued they were authorized 'Federally', but they were suing in state court. Since they were not authorized to do business in Florida, they had no standing to the title of the home in Florida. This would be the same for any Floridian foreclosed on at that time.

[@jesse00pno]

GOOD FOR HER!!! When it’s a little guy versus a huge business, I’m ALWAYS gonna side with the little guy.

[@niyablake]

Because country wide the master promissory note . That's the contact. Boa was sued over robo signing and it came out that country wide lost thousands of master promissory mote

[@niyablake]

​@@TryHardNewsletter robo signed is reference to machine that does signatures. Boa got using that machine to mass sign lawsuits with boiling plate template with out checking the facts

[@katiekane5247]

"Papers please" goes both ways. I'm impressed she did this Pro se

[@Richard-or9rt]

Most of us are sheep and will bend the knee. When we bite back our overlords don't know how to handle it.

[@valrazo83]

@@Richard-or9rt yes, especially when people finally understand that their "ALL CAPS NAME" owes the debt. Look at every bill/lawsuit, they are always in your "ALL CAPS NAME" which isn't even you. Get familiar with that.......

[@valrazo83]

Live in the Private not the Public......

[@thecivilrightsguyintxk]

I’m about to do a pro se. It’s going to be glorious

[@larrybolhuis1049]

We actually got hounded after a student loan debt was sold, however we had paid it off early. We sent them a copy of the payment letter. They sent us a check because the original bank that owned the debt miscalculated the payoff! It was only about $35.00 but still, they paid US! Shocking.

[@xlerb2286]

I believe in paying my debts. But I have zero problems when a debt collector gets shut down cold.

[@tarrantwolf]

I agree with paying *reasonable* debts. Such as things you purchased. Something like a $55k hospital bill when they literally did nothing, they sat and spun.

[@Adinkydude]

@@tarrantwolf Per Consumer Financial Protection Bureau 22% of consumers with debts in collection have only medical debts, so 78% of consumers with debts in collections have reasonable debts.

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

​@@Adinkydude-- There are other unreasonable debts. I recall a case where someone paid off the loan on a used car, but the lender recalculated and determined that the payment was off by a few cents. They then imposed a late fee, and then fees on fees, and then repossessed the car, which added even more to the debt. Sticky situation. And definitely not reasonable, especially since the amount he paid was the amount they (verbally) told him was the final payment. (I've simplified this for ease of typing. Original video was lengthy.)

[@RickLeMon]

@@Adinkydude The thing is, when you are being slammed with medical bills it causes a cascade effect. A few years ago, I was in the hospital for a week. I have great insurance so the bills themselves weren't catastrophic, but I ended up a month behind on a few bills and my savings took a hit. By the time this was over, I more than met my deductible, so If a few months later I ended up in the hospital again, I wouldn't incur much medical debt, but with depleted resources, having a card or two end up in collections would've been possible. I wouldn't have been in collections with medical debt, but the reason I was there would be because of medical debt. (And for what it's worth, hospital billing departments are ruthless)

[@Adinkydude]

@@RickLeMon I had a very similar situation in 2011. I was in the hospital for over a week for congestive heart failure, then went in the hospital the next month for double pneumonia. I had great insurance and fortunately I saved and built up an emergency fund for situations like this. People need to save more and be prepared for unforeseen emergency circumstances instead of buying a new car every few years, going on vacation every year and buying the latest gadgets.

[@sicsempertyrannis1849]

I had a debt collector after me, lots of threats to take me to court. It started 2 weeks before a bill was issued, so yes... I had not even been billed yet when they started collections. As time went on to collect this bogus debt, I found out that there were no records of the debt, just a dollar amount they claimed I owed. So for a while until I sent them a cease and desist, any time they called and threatened to take me to court I said "Absolutely, let's do it. Give me a date. I'd LOVE to go to court." Bewildered and confused the call usually ended right there. Never went to court, and I never paid the alleged debt.

[@CrankyBeach]

Egad... our local hospital, while very good medically, was TERRIBLE at the business end. They routinely sent people to collection before insurance had paid their share of the bill and before they billed the patient for their balance after insurance. They even did this to my former boss, who happened to be a physician on staff there. Not good for the hospital's reputation.

[@tarrantwolf]

​@@CrankyBeachand there's so little recourse because even if you convince the debt collector that there is no debt your credit already took a hit and they really don't want to accept that they bought a non existent debt.

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

​@@CrankyBeach-- My GF was in the same boat. She went to the hospital ER, and provided her insurance info. The hospital's own bills were correctly processed, but the separate bill for certain physicians showed up as a debt collection notice, worded to imply that she should have already received a bill and paid it. A review of what they sent showed that they had grabbed her name and address from the hospital's billing system, but not her insurance info. This got corrected, but it was a pain.

[@ocha-time]

That's the problem with buying a spreadsheet for pennies on the dollar; if you can't get documented proof of the debt, it means nothing. Less than nothing actually, because you paid someone to take their word that the debt you were purchasing was legit.

[@gerardwall5847]

Often the uncollected debt lines get transferred to another spreadsheet and sold. The uncollected lines may be transferred multiple times with different spreadsheets sold.

[@randallsmerna384]

It means something if the debtor/defendant fails to show at a court hearing and a default judgement is made to the plaintiff. The courts don't ask the plaintiff if all their docs are present and spot on - they just default the win to them and thus validate the claim that way. I don't know if there's a way to go back and challenge that judgement. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@duanesamuelson2256]

I ​@@gerardwall5847it can get worse than that. I owed a few hundred on a credit line to a company which went out of business. By the time it was sorted out I paid off the debt (about 6 mo later through and to the bankruptcy court since who would ultimately get the payment was unknown)Somehow my debt was sold multiple times with multiple companies trying to collect for the next 5 years at the same time. I'd wait for a few threatening letters then send a copy of the payment through the court certified mail and to remove me from their credit ding and list. I finally got it completely clear by retaining an attorney for the couple of stubborn ones and to remove said debt and the bureau notification. I think at the height there were 6 different companies trying to collect the same debt which never had been delinquent other than waiting on the court to take the money pending the finalization of the bankruptcy.

[@duanesamuelson2256]

​@@randallsmerna384yes if you weren't properly notified.

[@xarisstylianou]

Do you not have a time limit????

[@ED-es2qv]

How corrupt is that judge who took "trust me bro" from a debt collector? And, what judge accepts "it's confidential" when asking for evidence? That judge needs all thier decisions examined.

[@byronperry6014]

I would imagine that judge made more money that year than just the court salary.

[@codemiesterbeats]

I am a automotive inspector in my state and years ago they supposedly put an undercover car through my shop at the time and issued me a ticket for primarily the check engine light bulb was inoperable and I didn't catch it (since the emissions inspection is primarily just the shops computer talking to the cars on board computer... Emissions wise the car was totally in the clear but the bulb had supposedly been removed and that is a requirement here) I defended myself in that case, one of the most annoying things is that they come and give you the ticket several months later usually 😂 also they do not tell you that you made a mistake on site... Basically they just randomly walk in and claim you did something improperly. In court my case essentially hinged on they're not being any real proof or evidence that I actually did that car that had the bulb disabled. I asked them if they had a statement from the person or technician that had disabled the check engine light bulb... Or perhaps photos or any other evidence that I interacted with a car that was "rigged" (Towards the end I showed the rule book and highlighted the portion that said it is a crime for ANYONE to tamper with an emissions system to willingly disable or bypass something... To my knowledge there is no exception for law enforcement) The judge dismissed the case. A good amount of the time simply going to court can at least give you a better outcome than what would have happened had you ignored it or just went along with it. I plainly explained to them that I was not denying that this could have happened because anyone can make a mistake, however, I am not going to assume that they are correct. (funny enough they could not even mention the make and model of the car, which in theory would have been on the inspection receipt) Still to this day I'm not entirely convinced they didn't just slap a ticket at me and see if it stuck 😂

[@youtubasoarus]

That is way too common these days. Of governments and fraudsters. The bar is so low it might as well not even exist anymore. If people grew a spine and fought back, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. They really do expect people are so dumb they won't fight back and they can just take what they want with impunity. Kudos to you for sticking up for yourself!

[@MattH-wg7ou]

That sounds insane. We dont even have inspections in my state so the thought of them rigging up some inspections sting operation is just so bizarre and over the top. Like they really had nothing better to do.

[@RipliWitani]

Yeah that doesn't happen. Sounds like someone has beef with you or the shop. I've worked inspections for a long time, never had a sting operation lol

[@darcam]

Can't believe the lower Courts found in favor for the collection company. It truly appears the collection agency could just tie up someone name to a fictional account and say they owe without truly verification or proof.

[@dennisdragomir7572]

courts expected an attorney..

[@roy19491]

most lower court judges have failed in private practice, so they become judges because they need a job.....

[@admthrawnuru]

Robo signing sounds very much like perjury. We hear about stuff like this a lot, notably with things like traffic cameras and the like, yet no one ever investigates or prosecutes these entities.

[@cyndi-ann.ruff-beneficiary361]

Doesn’t matter they have to have first hand knowledge not personal

[@doublepinger]

It's amazing it is not handled digitally. Like, how much work is it to store the data? 1KB of text per person?? Let's give some doubt, and say a megabyte (enough for a low definition jpeg per 2 pages, even). 1000 people per gigabyte, or a million clients in 1TB of storage. If it was accessible on a private server, they could hand over the keys for the server, no data exchange needed!

[@samelioto476]

In 1983, I goofed on my fed taxes, because they had changed the rules on tipped income, my wife was a server. In what was certainly a coincidence, AZ sent me a notice that I owed it money, claiming that I never filed there. After a few years of back and forth, they sent it to a collection agency in CA, where I lived at the time. I got a very agressive call one day, and asked the guy why I owed AZ money. He didn't know, didn't care. I told him that my office was about 4 blocks from his office, and if he ever called again without knowing why I owed money, we'd have a conversation at his office. Never heard from them again.

[@ostlandr]

I goofed on my taxes last year (2022 taxes.) I dropped the decimal point on the mortgage insurance payment. So TurboTax calculated a HUGE refund. I caught the error afterwards when I realized the return was too good to be true. I immediately filed amended returns to both the Feds and the State, and repaid the excess refund. My amended return with the State crossed in the mail with their notice, so no issue there. NY caught the error. The Feds? Not only did the IRS not catch the error- They SENT ME BACK the money I repaid, because I hadn't filled out some form or other I never heard of. Umm, I filed an amended return? Still have the check sitting here- would never cash it. I may be the only person who ever had the IRS refuse to take their money.

[@uglypinkeraser]

a debt collector hounding somebody for money "owed" that they can't even prove owes them money seems like a targeted harassment campaign to me and should be criminally charged.

[@migrivp2672]

You know that it just need a judge to say, that the lack of proof is irrelevant and as long as you don't pay the speculated debt you can't contest it

[@b0bbyblueyes746]

Its actually written in the fair debt collecting laws, debt collectors have to follow those rules or they're liable for heavy penalties owed to the victim. But its not "criminal." No matter how we feel about it.

[@Jonlaxxx]

I've sued 2 times over identity theft and walked out with a decent payment and a free lawyer each time.

[@terripebsworth9623]

When somebody calls to collect a debt, the person who owes the money KNOWS if they owe it. Using the legal system to avoid paying debt owed is no less immoral than anything a debt collector does to try to get the person to pay what they owe. And not paying does cost everybody who honestly pays what they owe

[@andidede3653]

​@terripebsworth9623 if the debt collector had proof they owed the debt, with the proper documentation as required by law then we wouldn't have this conversation. How did they know that if they paid it, some other debt collector may not have approached them for the debt. There are laws for a reason on how they need to approach debt collection.

[@patrickdean4853]

I had this similar experience after the recession of 2007/8. Two credit card company served me, and I served them back. I demanded that each company prove they even lent me money and do so under standard accounting practices. It was all dismissed, by the court, with Prejudice. I never denied a thing, I just said they needed to prove it. Amazingly, they couldn’t.

[@niyablake]

I'm surprised two courts ruled against her

[@Hatbox948]

Wow!

[@blahokay1]

Nice

[@russlehman2070]

@@niyablakeI think the trial-level court had fallen into the habit of rubber-stamping whatever the collectors send them. It took an appeal court to actually look at it hard enough to see that the collector didn't have the records to prove it was a legitimate debt.

[@niyablake]

@@russlehman2070 it went to two court before it went to the appeal court. Two judge just stamped it

[@RAD6150]

I had a hospital claim I owed them $300,000. I have excellent insurance, so that would be impossible. They then sent me a $200,000 bill. I told them to try harder. I didn't hear back until a debt collector called me. I asked what it was for and they couldn't tell me. I asked WHEN the debt was from and they couldn't tell me. I ended up calling my insurance company and they had no idea why I would owe that. I contacted the hospital and it took a multiple calls to figure out what department said I owed the money, but they couldn't even tell me for what services. After six months of dealing with the collection agency, insurance, and hospital the collection agency returned the debt to the hospital and the hospital discharged it. I still don't know what it was for...

[@RipliWitani]

Clerical errors happen all the time. Usually with social security numbers. Some hospitals are burning money because they allow illegals to get free er service. So sometimes they go after random people hoping they pay.

[@blechtic]

Sounds like a scam. That makes it a police matter.

[@RAD6150]

@@blechtic Not a scam. Really poorly run billing department. Best guess is they failed to do the proper paperwork and decided their failure was my problem.

[@blechtic]

@@RAD6150 Knowingly double-billing is fraud and should be treated as such. They knew at least some of the people had already paid.

[@RAD6150]

@@blechtic It wasn't necessarily double billing. Chances are they failed to bill in the first place and no one caught it for over a year. But that is just an educated guess - based off my wife being corporate for the hospital system. Sadly, they even ran their/my insurance, so they were just screwing themselves... but trying to make it my problem.

[@danielhurst8863]

The lack of documentation is a feature, not a bug. The debt collectors don't want you to actually know what the collection is for. This way, the same debt can be collected numerous times. If you are a homeowner, it is even worse, as debt collectors love to simply attach to your credit rating, so you pay it off, to remove from your credit, even if you don't owe it. Because escrow is time limited, they know you will likely pay something just to get through escrow. It's theft, protected by loopholes in the law.

[@_PatrickO]

If you already own a home, your credit isn't that important. You can also challenge bad debt reported to your credit. They still need to prove the debt or it comes right back off. Many scammers stay out of court and just attack credit scores instead. But it is far easier to challenge bad info on your credit report, so people just need to educate themselves.

[@christopherkidwell9817]

@@_PatrickONo, it is not 'easy to challenge bad info'. My cousin had her identity stolen 20 years ago and it took her LITERALLY 7 years and a court case to get all the debt from that stolen identity wiped off her records.

[@_PatrickO]

@@christopherkidwell9817 You didn't read what I said. I am talking about the typical scammer companies that will put erroneous debts on your credit report hoping you pay them. The reality is, it is really simple to remove bad data from your credit report. This has nothing to do with individual identity theft or courts. But just keep in mind, identity theft today is not going to take 7 years of court cases to defeat. The case in the video was a woman who likely did open the debt, but the collectors had sloppy records so they were pursuing debt they had no proof for.

[@seanclark8452]

@@christopherkidwell9817 I hate that name. Her identity wasn't stolen. Lenders lent money without verifying the identity of the borrower. They then assigned the debt to her to cover the lender's loss, using credit agencies to attempt to coerce a 3rd party (your cousin) to pay a debt not owed. She's a victim of lender blackmail. The other criminals stole from the lender who didn't bother to check, not your cousin. (banks have political power to create this situation - that's the huge problem)

[@cylonred8902]

Luckily, the company I work for has millions and millions of records/documentation for all portfolios purchased. Never find by the CFPB, pass multiple bank audits every year - audits are designed to check for documents for random accounts. We even had a bank tell us we could not pass their audit - they finally gavr us one - we passed it faster than any other company they audited. Bad companies don't have the data - thankfully - not all purchasers are bad.

[@hoshea4]

The law is clear, but what the government permits is troubling; if publishing someone's debt in public is illegal, (which it is) how is selling debt with private information legal without written consent of the debtor? It's not.

[@mackchris5451]

Fun fact: most debt collectors don't have legal proof of anything.

[@nakiawashington7520]

What's legal proof

[@metalmastersc]

@@nakiawashington7520 Signed agreements, contracts etc,

[@raterus]

@@nakiawashington7520 Certificate of title that you own the debt

[@bergmanoswell879]

Quite true. I'm especially amused that PRA tried to claim that the proof that the defendant owed them the money was confidential... TO THE COURT. There is no such thing as confidential in that context, a court is authorized by law to open all confidentiality seals, including national security issues, though this case hardly approached that level. By claiming they have proof but can't show it to the court, the only reasonable outcome is the court ruling for the defendant.

[@ajm5007]

@@nakiawashington7520

[@redtiger7268]

This was actually a HUGE problem during the GFC. What was happening is loans were being sold and resold so many times no one knew who held the 1st or 2nd on most mortgages. I saw many deals where people were trying to buy short sales or foreclosures only to have some random person come out of nowhere saying they held a 2nd on the house. We would always ask for proof and they would not give it. They would demand a settlement wire and then would give a written notice of release. It was always for $15k-$20k which lead us to believe it was some form of scam going on.

[@ewhite1546]

Very impressive that she did all this representing herself. Just the web of people and entities is enough to make your head spin

[@Richard-or9rt]

"Web of people and entities".... I call it "the meat grinder". Government and large Corporations become just mindless and soulless machines, designed to follow one process. You accidentally fall into the meat grinder and it's difficult, if not impossible to escape. You try to contact a human being to correct something and you get a mindless drone that is only trained to press a big red button. If you fall outside the normal flow of processing you are ignored and you will be ground into sausage.

[@MeRiaNevaMynd]

My thoughts as well. And just thinking of the volume of "paperwork" makes my head hurt

[@jondspen]

With lawyers using ChatGPT to write up briefings, all the info on the internet, and the divorce/FCS about to go bankrupt (if marriage/birth rates keep falling) - wonder why anyone would become a lawyer today. 5-20 years left before the industry is broken open? Will really be nice We The People can actually start using the system as it was intended - or maybe that's why it seems "they" are destroying the system as we speak?!?

[@weirdyoda04]

My old roommate got sued for a 20 year old debt from a TV he bought from Montgomery Ward in the 90's. He didn't answer the complaint and they got a default judgement. Always answer the complaint, people!

[@ronjohnson9032]

A friend that I worked with had similar. Went to court, plaintiff couldn't prove debt. Court gave him $ for day off of work and legal fees.

[@frequentlycynical642]

I think you meant the defendant got the money, not the plaintiff.

[@russellstephan6844]

Don't *ever* pay towards a debt once it's sold down the river... Your credit rating has already taken the hit. Paying will get you nothing.

[@robinhumphries5743]

And it resets the clock on the statute of limitations for collection, so it can actually harm you.

[@joeshmoe7967]

I agree 100%. Once the debt is sold, to bad so sad for the collector. I suffered the credit rating drop to R9, equivalent to bankruptcy, but now have battled back to a n 800+ rating. Collectors got zero.

[@MandyPants1975]

How long does it take to actually leave your CR? I have one ex husband was ordered to pay, he never did. I feel like it’s past 10 years ago? And I just started to get calls from a DCA Portfolio Rec.

[@russellstephan6844]

@@MandyPants1975 It will always be on your CR... Your CR is a running history as to your behavior. Is most of that behavior problematic or good? How has your behavior been for the last, as you say, ten years? The *_only_* tool we have to predict future behavior is past performance. That's the whole point of the CR. Plan accordingly.

[@MandyPants1975]

I have an excellent history. With that singular exception.

[@donwyoming1936]

Debt collectors call me all the time, about my neighbors! Tired of them asking me questions about people I don't even know.

[@glenn6292]

That's illegal.

[@kettch777]

Read up on restrictions on debt collectors under the FDCPA. Then make the debt collectors aware of the fact you know your rights (and the debtor's right to privacy) and most likely they'll just stop calling. If not, look into claiming damages under FDCPA.

[@userac-xpg]

Why would you answer the phone these days unless you know the person calling?

[@CrankyBeach]

@@userac-xpg Exactly. If I don't know via caller ID who is calling, I don't pick up. Period. If they're legit they'll leave a voicemail.

[@tarrantwolf]

I think they used to do that to try to shame people into paying.

[@grayrabbit2211]

Many years ago, when I first met my wife, when we started getting serious I learned she had racked up quite a bit of debt. Most of it had been sold off to 3rd parties. So, I sat her down and we sent certified letters to each of the debt collectors demanding proof of the debt. Not just some line on the Excel sheet, but statements of what was owed. We also asked for proof of ownership and the chain of custody. NOT ONE debt collector bothered to go further with things. She didn't even have to go to court. Thankfully, that was her last brush with debt and has a top-level credit score.

[@frozencanary4522]

When the housing market crashed, banks started foreclosure on thousands of homes. Some people were able to keep their homes when they demanded the original note be produced. The loans were transferred so many times that nobody could find the notes.

[@echoroot101]

I was sued by a Portfolio years ago. Like 2009. They rejected 50% on the doller. It was like $1200. Asked for verification and proof during court mediation. They dismissed. They were hoping I didnt show up at all.

[@CaptConfusion71]

This goes back around 20 years, but I had 3 or 4 debt collectors try to collect on my wife over the span of about 4 years for the same debt. Each one was asked in writing to provide validation of the debt and none ever did. They just sold it on to the next company. When the final one called, I explained the whole thing to the guy on the other end of the phone, and also dropped in that the debt, even if valid, was so far beyond the statute of limitations that they couldn't come after us for it. That finally stopped the calls.

[@kriswingert1662]

You actually talking to them could reset the clock. NEVER talk to them, only request a proof of debt letter.

[@shadowninja6689]

@@kriswingert1662 Umm... so by that logic never answer your phone for anyone just in case it's a debt collector? In what places does the law even work like that for debt?

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

​@@shadowninja6689-- I don't answer the phone for anyone not in my contact list. They can leave a message, and I might call them back.

[@Ropya]

​@@shadowninja6689if they can claim that you acknowledged the debt, that can be used to reset the clock on SOL. Always demand validation and no contact until such is done. Nothing else.

[@randalmiller7952]

Had this happen to me. They had a bunch of medical codes listed so I had no idea what expenses they were collecting for. I replied by asking for the codes translated to plain English AND proof that they have been assigned the debt. Sent that by certified mail. Never heard from them again. Another time a debt collector laughed when I told him my insurance company paid. He said “that’s OK”. The doctor’s office manager had screwed up the books, so he’s billing everyone all over again with no knowledge as to whether they paid. Forget it.”

[@TryHardNewsletter]

That sounds super mega illegal

[@randalmiller7952]

@@TryHardNewsletter My regret is that I didn’t report it to the attorney general.

[@doublepinger]

Ugh, sounds like someone I know that worked for Time Warner (got bought by Spectrum, or whatever). All the technicians (pole climbing, installation guys) used to get explicit codes on their work records, and they'd be paid accordingly. Unsurprisingly, after a system change, there were NO CODES. The technicians were literally unable to be paid for ANY of their work. I don't know if any of them took it to court, but every single one had discrepancies on their wages.

[@mrbob4u495]

PRA is notorious for not having adequate records. Not a party to, but witnessed this in person in Palm Desert, CA. In fact, that day, they lost about three cases in a row. A fourth because the rep from PRA never showed up. The judge was not happy they wasted his time.

[@county23]

3yrs after one of my kids graduated high school, they got a cell phone with AT&T, shortly afterwards defaulted and quit paying the bill a year or so later, collections people started calling me telling me I needed to pay, I kept demanding they send me proof, which they could not do, one tried to tell me they were AT&T and again I demanded proof, after threatening me with taking me to court, I told them to do it! I want to go to court over this, all over $35, nobody ever sent me any documents and I was never taken to court..

[@roxcyn]

That was highly illegal and trust me they're not suing over $35 bill. It takes way more in filing and attorney fees.

[@galadrhim1]

Over 10 years ago I had a debt collector come after me but their documents had someone else's SSN. A lawyer friend had it all dismissed with one letter. They had nothing tying me to any debt.

[@joycehollinger1900]

Depending on the status of limitations of the debt, when debts are sold the debt buyer doesn't do their homework! I was a debt collector for 20 years. FDCPA, is a guide debtors must proof the debt is real. Factual data holds all your credit record. It can be a headache. Guddos to this person doing due diligence!

[@michaelfickel]

Had a debt agency call me about a bank debt I denied because it never happened. Prove it, never heard from them again. Later it was announced this same well known American bank was opening accounts in their customers names and doing nefarious things.

[@because813]

Wells Fargo?

[@99guspuppet8]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ Wells Fargo ? ? i have heard about the WF scam

[@kaecatlady]

Oh, honey... Wells gets sued so often, I'm surprised the states they work in don't each have whole prosecutor's offices just for Wells Fargo's shenanigans!

[@troystallard6895]

@@kaecatlady Not saying I'm old, but I remember when Wells Fargo was a reputable and trusted alternative to scumbag banks like Bank of America.

[@michaelfickel]

I was trying to be circumspect. LoL@@kaecatlady

[@crossxcats]

I asked a debt collector to tell where the debt was from, they couldn't tell me never paid them a cent.

[@PuppetryInMotion]

How about suing Experian, Equifax, etc. for listing and relisting these sold and resold debts every seven years without ever verifying if the agency owns the original debt, or not noticing the exact same debt/s have been on the person's account for years before by a different company?

[@bryanschuler9097]

This has a parallel in the post-2008 mortgage meltdown. Banks claiming to be the secured party could not produce valid documentation of assignment to them and resorted to robo-signing to cover up. The courts usually glossed over the inadequacies but a few in Florida and Pennsylvania began to require actual proof of ownwership of the debt. Banks had to change procedures which they very much hated to do. Now they are back, it seems.

[@ostlandr]

When disgraced former NY Governor "Prince Andrew" Cuomo was HUD secretary, he used the power of the Federal Government to bully banks into giving out loans to people who the banks knew were never going to pay them back. That's why the banks were going crazy trying to unload what they knew were going to be bad debts. When the Crash of 2008 happened, all those people couldn't make their mortgage payments. Between the burst of the housing bubble, and reduced down payments (because Prince Andrew said down payments weren't fair) those folks had no equity in their homes. So they just walked away. Cue massive global financial meltdown due to the bad mortgages having been somehow turned into financial instruments and sold like shares of stock to gullible people and institutions all over the world. Even bankrupted some fairly large pension funds who were holding those "Collateralized Debt Obligations" (CDOs.) While most of the world's governments bailed out the banks, tiny little Iceland (population of ~375,000) put 36 bankers in jail for a total of 96 years.

[@rafaelm.2056]

Once I had a debt collector trying to get me to pay a debt from 40 years ago. I did my research and followed all the steps to contest the bill and they went away. Debt collection companies buy bad debts for a few cents on the dollar and then chase the debtor for the full amount. People don't know that paying even one cent will confirm that the debtor owes the debt and the debt gets reported to credit agencies and you're screwed for years.

[@KC-nd7nt]

Pay your bills .

[@rafaelm.2056]

@@KC-nd7nt The original debt was less than $300. They tried to chase me for over $8k. I don't think so.

[@userac-xpg]

Any debt over 7 years is non collectible. Don't ever talk to these guys. Get annual copies of your credit report and anything on there 7+ years old write the credit report company and ask them to remove it as required by law. Do not admit to nor contest the debt simply state it is past the collection statute. Talking to debt collection companies only restarts the 7 year clock.

[@MeRiaNevaMynd]

​@@userac-xpgthank you

[@JessicaO490Z]

​@@KC-nd7nt All of the bills that have gone to my credit were bills I didn't owe. You can definitely get stuff filed against you that you don't owe... I'm not going to pay somebody that's trying to use the legal system (and credit system) to bully me into stealing my own money.

[@procrastinatingnerd]

What worked for us in the past was to tell the debt collector to send all correspondence through postal mail. Then if/when you get a letter from them, send a certified reply that you are requesting verification of the debt. Then if/when you receive their alleged proof, send a certified reply that you dispute the debt and therefore you dispute that it is valid. We stopped getting any communication about the issue after that. This was a invalid debt from a very shady TV service that comes Directly to your house.

[@mencken8]

There are various ways a debt may not be collected. My uncle’s bill for his terminal illness in the hospital was $180,000. Probate law in that state gives creditors 60 days to file for payment, but the hospital sent the executor (me) a bill in 75 days. Didn’t have to pay.

[@tarrantwolf]

If hendidnt have $180k in his estate wouldn't have mattered when they sent it.

[@mencken8]

@@tarrantwolf It wasn’t mentioned, but you’re perfectly correct. As it happened, there was significantly more.

[@roxcyn]

​@@mencken8- Sorry for your loss. You're right though. They have only so much time and then it's a no go.

[@wolfoftheages]

I'm sorry for your loss. My mother had a similar issue after my dad passed except that they waited over 2 years to file for payment. My state also only gives 60 days. They were also attempting to balance bill the estate since Medicare had already paid so much that he'd met his out of pocket maximum that year. Needless to say, I had fun writing the very scathing letter that she sent them, which they never responded to as it were. It wouldn't have been so bad if it was only a week or two "late" (still wouldn't have paid though) but 2 years was insulting to us, like they did it just to reopen the wound, not to actually get money. Your uncle obviously knew the right person for the job when he made you executor. No taking advantage of his family! Good on you for knowing your rights or at least knowing to ask the right people.

[@GilFavor101]

So much for "debt falls off your record after 7 years..." It's like patent law: Just change it a little and it renews...

[@davidroberson1962]

No, it doesn't work that way. They are not supposed to put it on your credit after 7 years but it still is a valid debt that you owe. Credit reporting and debt aren't the same thing. Some states have a length of time that they can't force you to pay anymore. However, if they sue you for a old debt and you don't show up to court then it is a default judgement. The Judge doesn't defend you at the case if you don't show up. This means the old debt becomes a court judgement which never goes away til you pay it.

[@RobDeHaven]

Glad the courts finally figured out the correct ruling. It should not have taken this long. Also, I hate these debt buying companies because they are ruthless and just as bad as telemarketers. For some reason, my phone number was used by people committing fraud so all the debt collectors called me looking for "so and so". I would tell them I don't know that person but they would become irate, saying I was lying to protect this person. The only saving grace, call block. At least they never tied my address to these claims and tried to sue me, that would have been an even bigger nightmare.

[@lynchkid003]

I have a similar issue. Someone took a bunch of bad loans with my current phone number before I had it. Most of them leave me alone when I tell them that the number got reassigned. But I've had one or two try and get money from me.

[@valarianne2284]

I've had them ask me to "help them" find the person - and it's usually someone I've never even heard of! I ask them how much they're going to pay me to do their job. They get quite pissed off. Funny as hell! You're annoying me, calling about some stranger and the only way you'll stop is if I "work" for you finding this stranger - for free. No thanks.

[@BusArch42]

Happened to my sister except it was the person who had the number prior had died. They kept calling her for years. And same thing asking her where he was. This was a random person.!

[@KabobHope]

NEVER pay a debt collector. Pay your original creditor.

[@brkbtjunkie]

The one time I went into debt, the same portfolio recovery collectors agreed that I could pay half of the original debt and it would be settled.

[@joesonnefeld9296]

​@@brkbtjunkie the original debtor at this point would also be willing to negotiate with you to settle the debt because then they get something and it is off their books

[@kacpecie]

It might not be as easy. Oftentimes the debt collector is the owner of your debt, so technically you owe the original creditor nothing anymore, as it has been transferred to collectors

[@---cr8nw]

Once the original creditor accepts payment for your debt from a collection agency and marks your account as paid, you can't pay them. They'll just refund your payment and say that the balance on your account is held by the collection agency and that you should make payment to that agency. Worst case scenario is that they'll hold the money in their accounts receivable account while they try to figure out where to apply the money. Then you're out the money AND you still owe money to the collection agency.

[@joesonnefeld9296]

@---cr8nw not true I paid the original owner when the collection agency contacted me I told them I didn't owe the debt at that point they have to verify the debt and I never heard from them again.

[@Nemonurwingy]

Good for her. If somebody can’t prove you owe the debt, you can’t even be sure that were you to pay them they would be able to record that. Then maybe the debt gets sold again and somebody else comes after you even though you already paid the first collector. Don’t pay if they can’t prove it. It’s impressive she was able to navigate all that pro se.

[@jerlewis4291]

There was a judge in NY that tossed out a ton of foreclosures because the banks filing the foreclosure could not produce the original loan documents because loans were sold so many times that pages of documents were frequently lost. The bank selling the loan really could care less I asked my aunt who was a lawyer if that means the person gets the house? She said, exactly if they can't prove they own the debt they're done.

[@ViciousSadistic]

My brother won against a debt collector because the used pre notorized documents in the agreement. This can get your debt discharged. So check your documents 😊

[@phillipbireta9308]

I am curious how they were able to prove the documents were pre-notarized?

[@ViciousSadistic]

@@phillipbireta9308 best we can deduce from the letter it was another case they discovered it in. The letter just said his case was being dismissed due to the discovery of pre-notarized documents. It was an affirm-like company he used. I couldn't believe he got out of it. Thought for sure he was gonna lose till then.

[@grospoliner]

@@phillipbireta9308 A notary will usually stamp and seal the document with the date they witnessed the document being officiated. A predated notary document would result in different signing and notarizing dates.

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@phillipbireta9308 Notaries have not only a Stamp, they are also required to sign and date. IF THE DATES THEY SIGN, AND I SIGN, ARE NOT THE SAME... Then the Notary did not "witness" MY signature.

[@kc8ufv]

​@@phillipbireta9308Often it's fairly clear right on the face of the document. There's a date next to the signature and a date in the notarial affidavit. If the two aren't the same, there's a problem with the notarization. Sometimes the notary is expired, even. I've also seen made up notaries and expiration dates.

[@jedstanaland2897]

A few things that everyone should know about debt and talking to debt collection companies. First off you never verify anything over the phone. This is because of many different reasons but the primary reason is the moment that you verify your information in any way they can claim that you have accepted their statement that you owe them the currency once they have that verified statement it doesn't matter if they have a completely false debt they can and will claim that the debt is real even if it is not. The next part is that depending upon the laws in your country and/or state they can't contact you at certain times or locations. Especially if you have told them not to. The most common times and places are as follows work, nights after 18:00, weekends, holidays, spouses/ family members houses, and employers. Many of the debt collectors don't know anything about these types of restrictions or even that they fall under harassment and they can completely lose all rights to even attempt to collect the debt.

[@timwaddell9450]

Synchrony bank and portfolio services are two pees in a pod of crooked.

[@user-neo71665]

I had one thrown out when i was 18. The bill was a credit card that was dated when I was 12. At that time I had never owned a credit card. The judge and I both had a good laugh about it.

[@prs44]

if banks were allowed to extend credit to 12 year olds, do you think they would do it? if you said "no", then you weren't around in 2007 when these critters were giving out money to anyone who could breathe and scribble their name.

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

​@@prs44-- Many took mailed-in applications, without any verification. Provide a valid SS number and you were in like Flynn. (And IRS requires parents to get SS numbers for kids in order to claim them as dependents, so the kids have them.)

[@spencegame]

I had some debt collector trying to come after me for a lawsuit settlement that my mother had initiated then passed away before it finalized. The lawyers called me up and asked me to submit her death certificate and i would be the new plaintiff. They won and sent me a check. My mom had a few debts and collectors started calling me, I called the lawyers and they said that cause they made me the plaintiff my mom had no claim to the money because she died before they finished the case. They said the next time they called to refer them to their office and to kick rocks.

[@frostyfrances4700]

I don't like debt collectors anymore than the debt I avoid so earnestly. But one time I started getting dunned by a debt buyer bc their customer had allowed a neighbor to take out a huge loan I knew nothing about; they even admitted they'd never even seen me and just took the neighbor's word that I'd co-signed for her. Of course she didn't pay. But neither did I, despite all the arm twisting the debt collector tried.

[@freedomspromise8519]

Damn! Your neighbor ran a scam on you! New one on me!

[@frostyfrances4700]

@@freedomspromise8519 - Luckily I eat telemarketers and debt collectors for breakfast. Also since I live way out in the middle of nowhere, a lot of my buying has to be done online. So one time I ordered and paid for (and kept receipts) from the Woman Within catalog. Everything was fine for a couple years until I heard from another debt collector who'd bought that as a false debt from the catalog company. I sent them copies of the receipt but they still tried to force it out of me with threats of all kinds. "We'll tell your neighbors you're a deadbeat!" That would be funny since we already hate each other. "We'll call your employer and attach your wages!" Go ahead since I'm retired and don't have one and the SSA couldn't care less. "We'll hit your credit score!" Go ahead and try; my credit's perfect, I have proof of payment, and if you try that I'll sue your back teeth out. Suddenly it's crickets.

[@westernbody]

Not so new. Happened many times in the past

[@christopherkidwell9817]

@@freedomspromise8519Or the debt buyer was lying about the whole debt in the first place and the statement from the neighbor.

[@frostyfrances4700]

@@christopherkidwell9817 - Could be. But she was a severe mental case, so it was equally likely her. But you made a very good point which had not occurred to me; thanks.

[@nomentum]

I had moved to another state and found out I had a balance on my gas bill at the previous residence. Found out later it was something like 47 cents. I could not pay less than a dollar online. Eventually I sent them a check for 47 cents. It was actually 46 cents and they sent me a refund for 1 cent. I deposited it. Years later (over 10 ) this account was suddenly listed as a charge off on a credit report and I knew a charge of any amount is a huge black mark on your report. But over a debt less than a dollar... that I had actually *paid* ?! I had all the records and I provided them. They corrected it.

[@katisugarbaker7349]

But that’s the problem. I’ve got boxes and boxes of old records I’m afraid to throw away because I’ve had corrupt companies do illegal shit a couple times in my life. I did finally start shredding some of it a few years ago, box by box. But I still keep some things. Modern life is traumatizing mainly due to the absolute dishonesty and criminal behavior of people who think they’re “good people”.

[@FractalPrism.]

had a car repo'd long ago; debt collector tried to say "you owe us this much $, pay it" told them "the car was repo'd, show me how much the car was sold for at auction, add my monthly payment amounts already paid and i will pay the difference of what i would owe" "we dont have that paperwork" "then I cant confirm the amount you say i allegedly owe" and I never gave them anything.

[@HurricaneLantern]

honestly, they probably owed you money for the excess of the debt recovered

[@TheLepke2011]

I once had a debt collector call me to say I owed money for college classes at a school I toured but never enrolled in. The guy said he had signed docs proving it. I asked he send them to me and I'd pay, and explained I never signed anything. He said he couldn't send me the paperwork I signed because it was confidential. I heard from him one more time after that and never again.

[@0Clewi0]

Who would buy that debt that you own it's too confidential for one to see?

[@MelissiaBlackheart]

That headline is amazing. The utter convolution in the bills of sale in that court case are ridiculous! If they're gonna go after someone for debt, the courts need to make sure they dot their "i"s and cross their "t"s better than this.

[@philopharynx7910]

Many years ago, I used debt verification to get a debt cancelled. It just cost me one piece of registered mail and I never heard from them again. Apparently this was before they turned that into lawsuits. This is a big win.

[@stevef68]

So, did she get the statutory $1000 award for the violation of the FDCPA?

[@mhfuzzball]

Bigger question: Since the Circuit Court surrendered her bond to PRA, don't they have to pay that back to her?

[@deltalima6703]

They defaulted, but she sold it to a debt collection company for $100. 😅

[@xyavdast5554]

If I understood Mr. Lehto in the video correctly the following happened and will happen now: The appeals court sent the trial back to the lower court with a note telling/ordering the lower court to have the debt collector prove the legitimacy of the debt they claim the woman to owe them. If the debt collector can show documentary proof without any gaps then the verdict will be confirmed. If the debt collector cannot show the proof - just like it seems they cannot from the fact that they avoided doing so till now - then the court will most likely reverse the verdict and have the debt collector pay back the 8.5k they already took and an additional 1k as penalty for violating the law. I just hope that there is a cost shifting statute in case the debt collector is found to be at fault. Otherwise the woman will probably have spent more money on legal fees than the case itself is about.

[@mhfuzzball]

@xyavdast5554 That's not as much of a problem as you think, because Steve pointed out she was doing this pro se, meaning she has no attorney. So the only legal costs she would have are filing fees.

[@anthonygiordano1126]

Hey Steve, isn’t there a statute of limitation of 3 years on collecting delinquent debt that starts at the moment you missed a payment, and the account becomes delinquent! Isn’t it a fact that the debt collector cannot sue you after that three-year period but can continue to attempt payment until you send them a cease-and-desist letter?

[@Mewse1203]

Something kind of like this happened to me. They called and said I owed a debt on a car accident that I was in. They kept trying to tell me that I had received documentation before then about it, but I had dealt with the whole thing through court, and they had waived all the debt. So I told them they should look through their documentation because I've never gotten anything from this and I was contesting it. They said they'd call me back but they never did, and it's been like 8 years

[@valarianne2284]

About a year after an accident I had a very nasty, aggressive woman calling from a debt collector in Florida (I'm in NJ) demanding a huge amount of money - around $25,000. I had been t-boned by a guy running a red light. I was knocked unconscious so the police report only had his statement on it. There were no witnesses. Their basic tactic was to try every dirty trick in the book to get me to agree to a "payment plan" of a minimum $20 per month immediately. That very day. Or else they would pull my driver's license. They said they had a special designation as an "arbitration company" so they had powers regular debt collectors didn't have. What they didn't know was I had worked for a check cashing company during college answering phones - but I still had to attend a one day program on the Fair Debt Collection practices so I knew the rules. The lies included: they would have my license pulled, my insurance wasn't valid, the police report stated I was at fault, they had camera footage of the accident - all of which was simply untrue. Being designated an "arbitration" company does NOT give you the super power of deciding who's at fault in an accident or having anyone's license revoked. What they had was a police report in which the other driver claimed it was my fault, and a computer program that told them there were cameras at the intersection. It didn't tell them those cameras had been turned off years ago. When I asked for proof I was responsible for the accident they just kept repeating I had to start paying immediately or they would have NJ pull my license. Ummm - you can't do that. They assured me their "special designation" allowed them to pull licenses. I told them they would first have to get a court order from a judge. They assured me they would get it because my insurance wasn't valid. I asked them how I got the car registered since you have to show proof of insurance in order to register a car in NJ, certainly NJDMV would know if an insurance was valid. They went back to demanding I set up a payment plan immediately to avoid going to court. I told them fine - let's go to court. It's my word against his. You've got a 50-50 chance on who the judge will believe. But if you win you'll never collect a dime. I'm a handicapped senior on a fixed income. I don't own anything, have no rich relatives who'll leave me a ton of money and I don't play the lottery. Further, at $20 per month I'll be long dead before the interest is even paid IF you can get anything. From what I know you can't touch my monthly payments. I also told them it was highly unlikely that any company would spend thousands of dollars on lawyers to get an uncollectable judgement. It wasn't cost effective and made no business sense. They insisted they would sue, they do it all the time. At that point I told them I was surprised they were still in business, you're full of it, don't bother me unless you're sending me paperwork from your lawyers about going to court. Didn't hear anything for about 3 months. Started up again, same tactics pressuring me to enter a payment agreement immediately or else I would lose my driver's license. Same arguments. Rinse and repeat. This went on for almost a year until I got a lawyer to send them a "cease and desist" letter. What bothers me is the blatant lies and coercive tactics they used. I can see how easy it would be to scam someone who didn't know the rules into agreeing to pay. Especially older people who never had any involvement with collection companies. They tried to sound as scary as possible. And rude! The woman, upon being told I was handicapped, said "We're going to pull your license - let's see how you manage to get around without a car. Good luck getting groceries." I can see how that could easily scare an elderly person who believed their "special powers" line of BS. They even tried the "start a payment plan now to prevent losing your license and we'll figure it out later" nonsense. A lot of people might fall for that not realizing that no matter what designation they have they do NOT have the power to pull your license simply on their say so and once you start paying, you own the debt. They're never going to investigate who's really at fault or do anything to help "straighten the misunderstanding out" once they get you to start paying them. The nasty, aggressive tone, the claim to have a "special designation", the half truths - all done to get an uneducated person to believe their BS. They skirted the truth enough, they just left out important parts. For instance the part where they would have to take you to court, prove the accident was your fault, then petition a judge to request your license be pulled. The only flat out lies I believe they told was "we have camera footage proving it's your fault" and going to court - no business is going to invest money in lawyers and courts knowing they won't get a return. The Debt Collection industry may be a necessary evil - but it needs a complete overhaul and a LOT of oversight. Judges need to be aware that these people break the rules on a daily basis. They were doing it decades ago. It seems to have gotten worse over time. Of course a lot of judges know and don't care. Or they have an agreement with the collector. The number of people who know their rights and have the money to fight them is small. Most people pay just to get rid of them. It's less expensive than fighting them. Personally I'd like to see them put out of business the first time they're caught using illegal tactics or telling half truths to coerce people. To be honest, even though I KNEW what they were doing was wrong and vaguely illegal they started getting on my nerves. I wasn't sure what other illegal tactics they might try. Like not sending me legal papers in a timely fashion or trying to force me to come to Florida for a court hearing. It's far too easy for these low lifes to prey on vulnerable people. Normally I don't easily fall for this kind of thing but they definitely got me wondering what else they might try given their attempts to collect money I didn't owe them. As far as I know when you're subjected to this stuff there's no place to register a formal complaint that carries any weight. Your only recourse is to sue them - most people they go after either don't know that, or it's too intimidating, or they have neither the time nor the money. There should be a better way to get rid of the predators out there who just want to make an easy buck.

[@Lou58Lou]

We have had our mortgage sold MANY times, BUT when it is sold they must adhere to the terms of the original loan. One company that purchased our mortgage somehow took my name off the loan, or the company that they sold it somehow took off my name. It was a pain in the butt to get it corrected. We have also had one of the companies charge us a fee of $12.00 to pay online, in Ohio this is/was illegal and they had to pay us back, then they promptly sold our loan.

[@youtubasoarus]

Everything fast and loose in the financial world. Those people are disgusting.

[@roxcyn]

What is the law that they can't charge a fee to pay online in Ohio?

[@Lou58Lou]

@@roxcyn I'm not sure my husband told me about it and I just know that they gave us back our $12 that they had charged us every time we made an online payment

[@duaneb193]

As someone whom has had multiple debt collectors contact for a debt in Pa (I live in Wa), I love the explanation from the court on this. I've had them put derogatory statements on my credit report - for a debt that had someone else's SSN on it! When questioned, several have responded that "it could be" mine, even with the SSN and DOB wrong. Not an overall fan of debt collectors, personally! Thankfully the incidents have slowed, but I still get the occasional call or letter in the mail and have to start the whole process over again.

[@Duncan_Campbell]

Steve, with her suing for PRA breaching the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act is there any provisions for lawyer fees? If she does have any, as that seems a large hurdle to jump if you can't recover fees for made up debts.

[@ithinkaboutthings9052]

I think it is just outstanding that this woman, not an attorney, was able to prevail on appeal. That’s the best part. I have seen dozens of folks get wins over debt collectors in county and state courts. But the appellate process can be tricky because relatively few pro se litigants have paddled that river alone. Good for Ms. Green!

[@rychei5393]

It is verry frustrating to receive other people's bills in your name. Has happened with hospital bills for us. Also had a doctor falsely charge me, informing them they were in the wrong, they sent it to collections. I literally laughed at the collections guy... he was flustered, nothing he could do was going to convince me to pay something I didn't owe. They knew when they sold it to him, it was in dispute, they knew they were selling a bad debt.

[@SeanBZA]

But if they sell it to 20 people, each paying 10% of book value, it actually generated a profit for them.

[@lasskinn474]

@@SeanBZA well that's the idea. but the break even might be 5%. maybe it's 20%. they don't know and it does cause investment losses, it's supposed to be a safe easy way to make money but really it's not any more than buying bad mortgages is.

[@SeanBZA]

@@lasskinn474 They buy the bad debt, expecting to collect on it, but then in turn, once collected on, they sell it in turn down again, making more money off the payers. After all, till the person fully pays it off, it still exists on the book as debt, and can be sold on, even after the person has fully paid it off. So you can literally have 15 judgements against you, all for the same original debt, and all want to be paid the same amount plus fees.

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@SeanBZA That isn't how it works. Once I paid ten cents on the dollar, I OWN THAT DEBT. It's mine. The original owner cannot sell it any more. BECAUSE I OWN IT. And if I can't collect, and want to resell it to you? Guess how much you're gonna pay me, and it is NOT the Original Debt. Or even what I paid. You will pay ten cents on each dollar that I paid. Because only a fool would pay face value for a debt that TWO companies couldn't collect.

[@SeanBZA]

@@TimeSurfer206 Debt collection is always less than honest. If they mix up lists and sell them, they can sell them multiple times. Yes illegal, but only if somebody takes them to court, and most people being hounded by them cannot afford a lawyer.

[@geraldsahd3413]

I was working out credit card problem and after several weeks the company admitted all was good and would close the case. Several months later got a letter from a collection agency. Instead of re-litigating with the agency, I sent a response letter requesting for about 30 due diligence items from the creditors. The letter stated if I didn’t hear back from them in 30 days, I would consider the matter closed and all marks on my credit report removed. Since collection agencies want easy cases they just handed the letter over to the creditor and said here provide these items. Needless to say I never heard from the credit card company not the agency.

[@larrycable1948]

I went through this where there was two problems. The first was that the lawyers present in court knew nothing about the case nor had the power to act. Then it went through a series of interrogatories where they couldn't find an unredacted copy of the original note, nor could they find anything that showed they had a legal assignment. It was a waste of my time, but they didn't want to have defend it in a jury trial, so it went away. This involved a private student loan.

[@petertimmins6657]

The company argued that the paper trail of documents they allegedly had that proved they were owed this debt by her were confidential so they declined to provide them?!?! I might have been born at night, but it wasn’t last night.

[@fridgeffs5662]

I had all my debts erased while i was in jail for a short time. They called home and were told i was in jail so they realised there was no way they could collect and wrote them off. Jail really can be a fresh start.

[@MrTruckerf]

Haha! Most financial experts would not recommend it.

[@newshodgepodge6329]

If you file taxes, hold on to your hat. If that information was forwarded to the IRS they might be the next entity sending you a delinquency notice based on undeclared income. I am neither an attorney nor an accountant. But it is tax season and someone I know is on the hook for "income" his wife failed to declare for credit card debts that were written off several years ago.

[@nojuanatall3281]

Last season the IRS gave me some trouble over the one dollar of interest I earned from a savings I never use. I was so confused and stressed. Worried that my ID had been stolen. Sent them the info and that was that. Lesson is they will chase down a single dollar even if it costs the. Thousands in man power.

[@chrisforker7487]

Sounds like you should still be there!

[@thedave1771]

"This one trick..." 🤣

[@kfalzgraf]

I got a letter for a debt with a name I never used. Told them to send docs with my signature. They couldn't and poor the debt was gone.

[@norcanexs.g.llc.4625]

I recently kept on getting calls from a collection agency about a debt I knew was not mine, I knew they were fishing for my private information. At first I thought it was another Indian scam. I finally got them to stop when my friends and I jammed the agency phone lines for a day.

[@graygrumbler4253]

I have been thru this several times in my life. I wrote back asking them to validate the debt. They never could & they were silent from then on.

[@ManSubhu]

Add it to the law that to sell a dept you must give right of first refusal to the deptor. So if you are gonna sell somebody's $2k dept to a collection agency for $40 you must first give the deptor the option to by their own dept for that amount.

[@robertewalt7789]

Or you could attempt to include this as a clause in your debt agreements.

[@lottoguy6457]

This is 1000 percent how to fix the problem. Let me buy my own debt

[@sexygeek8996]

Many debtors would default in hopes of "buying" the debt for less than they owe.

[@ManSubhu]

@@sexygeek8996 ...Meaning creditors would be less inclined to give credit to people with bad credit, knowing the risks. This is a good thing. Remember, the creditors don't have to sell the dept, they can chase the deptor, they can't just pass the dept on to some other muppet.

[@JP-jq1qx]

@@ManSubhu I see what you did there and I approve!

[@danielkuster6285]

I worked for a rental debt collection company. They never had proof on file before reporting it to the CRA's. No lease, no itemized statement showing what the charges were for.

[@TryHardNewsletter]

You would think there would be a system that acts as the authoritative archive for debt. Like if I owe money it shows up in the authoritative archive and I am notified. If I think it's not legitimate, it gets dealt with then and there while it is still fresh. Then if I make a payment, whoever I paid needs to show that payment in the archive. If I made a payment and I don't see it reflected in the archive, I should be able to send the archive something from my bank proving I made a payment that wasn't reported to the archive, and a penalty is issued to the other party. The archive could make it easy to tell who currently owns the debt. This is just stream of consciousness but the point is that this is theoretically all very easy to manage.

[@cristoferwolz-romberger3835]

I had the fast version of this happen to me. Medical debt as a result of a hospital trip; thought I got it all but got called by a debt collector about a year later. Told them that I acknowledged that I got medical care on that day; but that I needed proof of services that I was paying for because I covered all debts my insurance company informed me of, plus proof that they owned the debt. Never heard back. Always challenge the debt respectfully.

[@epoc162]

I get this type of thing all the time. I have had a few debt collectors contact me in the past and what it is is that the people contacting me are not the people I signed paperwork with but they are the person who bought it from the person who bought it from the person who bought it from the person who bought it from the company that had the original debt and by that point it's so convoluted with ownership that when you sit there and say prove to me that I owe this debt they cannot ever prove all the way back to the original creditor and I've gone to court for these a couple times now and had every single one thrown out because they can't show a definitive track record of how they got that debt and how they got it from the original creditor who I signed the documents with and the court has every time said that I don't owe them any debt because they can't prove some sort of legal term that has like a chain of custody or whatever between them and the original creditor

[@clockworkleather]

The problem a lot of people run into to defend themselves in these debt collection issues is that to even file to appear at the trial about your debt is exorbitant in a lot of areas. Here in Oregon, there was a case filed against me, and it was 1100 bucks just to even get a say in court. Never mind hire any kind of representation. If someone is struggling to make payments, those court fees aren't going to offer any restitution.

[@watchdogu.s.a.8973]

I've never heard of that... having to pay to defend yourself in a lawsuit. Just... wow.

[@wisenber]

How does a court in Virginia say they don't have experience with debt buyers? That stuff has been going on for decades. I had two similar experiences (without losing at the circuit court level). Both times, I was served notice that I was being sued without any prior communication, and both times I sent a certified letter to the plaintiff and the court requesting that the debt be validated while also requesting that all future communications be in writing. I never got a validation, but i did get robocalled. Both times, I want to court with a counterclaim for Fair Debt Collection Practice violations. Both times, I was awarded five thousand bucks and had their suit tossed out and any credit history reference removed. I never hired an attorney, but I did show up in court three times for each.

[@jerryodell1168]

A collection company in Wisconsin kept calling our house over-and-over trying to find someone who we do not know. Finally, we learned the law in our state regarding collectors. The next time they called, we confronted them with this information and found out they were trying to find someone with our same last name and they were calling everyone they could find with that name in hopes of finding the person. They apologized after they were told we knew the law and had a name of a law firm that dealt with collectors. The calls stopped.

[@CrankyBeach]

Yeah, I used to get calls looking for somebody with the same last name. I kept saying you have the wrong number. Finally, I said, that person doesn't live here, has never lived here, I don't know that person, I don't WANT to know that person, STOP CALLING ME! They actually stopped after that.

[@buggsy5]

I believe that federal law requires that they stop calling you when you tell them to do so. @@CrankyBeach

[@purduephotog]

Dealt with this for YEARS. Even had the nerve to ask if I knew where they lived. Then they sued me in court, which I had to waste a day and a half to prove I wasn't the person, lied about the serving (found it in the neighbors yard). Wish I could have afforded someone to go after them

[@babyplaneswalker341]

I had a debt collector calling me over and over for a hospital bill. They always called while I was at work. I never told them no, just that I was at work and asked of they could call back. I would tell them my work schedule so they could call any time I was not at work and we could set up a payment plan. They never would. They would call while I'm at work. Then nothing. Then a month later they would call while I'm at work again. Them nothing. They did this for a year. Then went silent. Never heard from them again

[@dyingearth]

They usually only have an item on a spreadsheet that they bought after about 6 degrees of sale of debt.

[@SeanBZA]

That was also sold to multiple others, each thinking they were the collector.

[@sparxva]

This is why I always keep the letters from banks stating that a debt has been paid off. You never know when someone will come knocking asking for the money you supposedly owe and fees for non-payment.

[@CrazyRFGuy]

More people need to sue PRA for this kinda crap. I had a collector like them call up about my wife and some bill from when she was 14. They then started trying to garnish wages. Someone ended up finding the home address and phone number for a manager and started auto dialing them. And their wife. And their adult children. Wasnt me, no idea who it was, some angel from god, a demon from Beelzebub?

[@VIII_Royalty_VIII]

They have done this to others. I personally know a woman who sued because they contacted her at work and she didnt owe the debt. She sued via some firm that specifically goes after collection agencies like PRN for crossing lines and commiting violations. She never went to court. They settled and she was awarded $3500.00. This anonymous woman happens to be very litigious and understands her rights pretty well. 😊

[@bonedeth925]

I always answer the phone like im a deaf Vietnamese guy

[@bryanschuler9097]

Good. A chance to practice your cursing in Vietnamese. How often does that come up?

[@werefrogofassyria6609]

The Werefrog do Japanese. You have to have the language to do it right.

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

I have a cell phone that I use for work. Sometimes, I get calls on it that say _scam likely_ on the caller ID. If I have time and am not driving, I'll answer with a weird accent, "_'ellow?_ As long as it doesn't turn out to be a legit work call (so far it hasn't), I just keep repeating that word, like I can't hear them.