Stick Out And No Support

Sometimes the projects you have to set up in the lathe have a lot of sticking out and sometimes you can’t support the load and you have to let it hang out there to do the work. I share my set up and machining of a ductile pipe flange assembly for one of the local municipalities.
“Made in China” is a warning label….
Life is good! Cheers, Keith
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[@minigpracing3068]

Kurtis at Cutting Edge Engineering has done work like this, he has a few different scroll chucks on bearings for the tailstock. Insert the chuck inside the pipe and expand the jaws, this gives support and a little clearance to machine the surface.

[@kensherwin4544]

The inside of that pipe looked like it had some sort of coating that was frangible. My guess is that tightening the chuck jaws enough to hold that stickout would crush the coating, letting the part get loose and ruin somebody's day.

[@Gottenhimfella]

@@kensherwin4544 In which case the first step would be to bore the entry to just clean (with a freshly sharpened tool with decent top rake to minimise cutting force), slightly deeper than the step of the jaws (like you would do to the OD in order to run a steady) If it was a lot longer, the operator might have to do it in two stages* by making a steady patch closer to the chuck, and then using that to secure it for boring out the end patch. * if there was steady big enough, on my lathe the size of Keith's Clausing it is not, so I would first need to make a bigger one. sigh...

[@arkansas1336]

@@kensherwin4544...That was a cement lined double flanged pipe which is used in the sewer and domestic water industries. I had many pieces manufactured by this same factory to within 1/32" (their tolerance they work to). They're a great factory to buy from, just order the correct length for the space you need to connect allowing for gaskets. If it's too short they will have sent you an extra gasket for filler as they know some project supervisors might measure incorrectly.

[@benjurqunov]

But why should Kurtis have to reject special homosexual rights ? Obviously he's no mexican !

[@tced2858]

I machined those types of pipe flanges for 15 years ,working for Alfa Laval, brought back memories....

[@tbill5057]

Yep...I like you're videos. You're not constantly trying to sell me something or impress me with all the "stuff" you have accumulated. Get well soon!

[@jijzer3284]

He did that some times.

[@davidlawson1902]

Thanks Keith: like to watch your machining, miss you when you are not here. Good luck with your surgery.

[@mikenewman4078]

Keith, I remember how pleased I was for you when you first received that beautiful 4 jaw. So good to see it working for you.

[@LVVideoGuy]

I thought it was cool when I found it for him... :)

[@donsipes]

Thanks Keith. One of the better episodes. I always appreciate your coverage of setups and work holding. You do it well. CHEERS.

[@iancraig1951]

yes I agree

[@northernmetalworker]

My journeyman used a threading tool that was configured for facing, and would slow down the latye rpm, then hand feed the cross slide in order to manually cut a phonographic finish into the face. It works quite well.

[@chieft3357]

Love to see this kind of videos where you share your knowledge with us. Thanks, all the best.

[@michaeldurling793]

Phonographic finish, play it again Sam and now I know what it's called.

[@denny9931]

Your setups are as impressive as always!

[@ypaulbrown]

learned a new term, Phonographic Finish, thanks Keith.....

[@ohhpaul7364]

Nice work, Keith. Happy to see you make that flange great again. Now if the rest of us can all do our part we might get somewhere.

[@acmemachining]

Thanks Keith for the great tips. I really like the backwards t-nut. That will work on the mill also.

[@waynespyker5731]

"Why did you buy a gap lathe?" Exactly!

[@tsmartin]

Well ... sometimes that all you can get.

[@joevehige8558]

I was laughing at my desk cause I knew he was about to say it lol.

[@curragh2840]

Probably because it allows him to machine bigger stuff.

[@Davemte34108]

Back in the early eighties I watched one of the steel mill machinists do a similar job on a pipe section about the same size. Setup was similar, but the lathe was a fair amount bigger, he considered using a steady rest but it would not fit in the space. He got the gasket surface correct after a few tries. The lathe had a 40 foot bed and was mostly used for making line shaft sections.

[@mitchdenner9743]

You are still the man Keith! 💪😉🇺🇲

[@Antony_Jenner]

Love your work Keith. Your straight up approach is appreciated.

[@phillipjones3342]

Another fine teaching moment you're getting it done Keith

[@joewhitney4097]

Great video Keith for us amature hobbyist. I learned several unique issues today and love watching you show both your skills and craftsmanship along with your years of experience. Thanks for sharing.

[@ramosel]

I have used the blocks before... never thought about you double t-nut/stud combination. Thanks, Keith!

[@patrickcolahan7499]

Nice setup and attention to detail. Thanks for sharing.

[@darinspicer2753]

Love to see different work holding methods. Keep up the great work Keith.

[@Jon2jammy]

Excellent info Keith, thank you for sharing.

[@TheTacktishion]

Always a good lesson!!! Thanks for bring us along....

[@LaserGuy64]

Thanks for the great content!!

[@betterbackwards2701]

Your Clausing still looks pretty fresh Keith. KZbin should give it it's own play button.

[@frankerceg4349]

Thank you Keith!

[@silasmarner7586]

Great work Keith!!!

[@JourneymanRandy]

Great lesson Keith. Thanks 🔧⚒️🔩

[@jimmyboles3409]

Thanks for the video and the knowledge you share Kieth! Thanks

[@keithhicks9196]

I very much appreciate and enjoy your videos. Please keep up the good work

[@wb8ujb]

Always great learning experience watching you work. Thanks for sharing. Hope you get well too. I know the pain of hands/wrist.

[@howardtoob]

Your videos are a must watch!

[@stevenclaeys6252]

Thank you for another great video. Stay safe out there. Cheers

[@edsmachine93]

Nice setup Keith. Really came out nice.👍 Thanks for sharing.

[@johnquinn3899]

Some great method’s you’re showing us Keith - I’ve been pondering how to secure a project I need to work on. John

[@yambo59]

Excellent job as usual - nice to see youre well settled in your newer shop and sporting three phase current now as well-!

[@jryer1]

The additional clamping options was very clever.

[@akronsbest9091]

Been watching you since I was an apprentice. You are the best and have helped me sooooo much!

[@patrickmazzone9066]

Beautiful job enjoyed it thanks for sharing

[@wirenutjoe]

That’s the kind of vids I prefer.

[@bearsrodshop7067]

Adapting the brush to the ruck holder ,,,,, a tip that wish I had seen when turning brake rotors last years... Learned a lot from this video Keith, thx for sharing, Bear.

[@ypaulbrown]

always great to see you Keith, best wishes, Paul in Orlando

[@JB-ol4vz]

Very nice set up tips, thanks for teaching rookies like me. Cheers mate from Sweden.

[@willemvantsant5105]

Hi Keith, we call it Gramaphone finish down under. Phonograph became gramophone in the forties. Our refinery machinists used a 40 thou feed rate at a certain depth to achieve the finish. Don't know if there is an ANSI standard.

[@Paul-FrancisB]

It's a gramophone finish in the UK as well, and yes it's ANSI B16.5, or BS 1560 for the British version. Basically 32 TPI with a couple of choices of tool nose radius

[@MrSteveodle]

Thanks Keith, you always help us. Hope this helps you.

[@pyromedichd1]

Another great video and learning experience for me, thank you Keith! I've seen the phonograph finish on flanges before but I didn't know they were intentional for helping with the gasket seal. I like the mug shot over the lathe.

[@bruceanderson9461]

Great solutions for clamping using the T nut slots. Will need to make a rook - very handy for cast and brass.

[@user-fw7xq5re8s]

I have cut similar parts. If you turn the clamps so the toe block set on the chuck face don't have to worry about t slot. Still a great job as always I use to tell my traines to watch your site!!!

[@KeithFenner]

Yes giving up just a little bit of holding pressure with extending reach, and also good idea if your toe clamps are to long, all options should be looked at....

[@joemeyer6876]

I like the subdued lighting too.

[@vilijan4056]

Nice work. Thanks for the idea for paint brush holder. I have small lathe and use paint brush a lot to prevent chips flying around, but I hold it with hand. I use vacum cleaner to catch dust if I machining some rusty or dirty parts to prevent dirty dust falling on leads and around.

[@josephlawless6013]

Always enjoy your videos. Always practical and informative. I know it’s just not you to want to leave such a rough finish after watching all your videos over the years. That reminds me of what should have been a thread on raised face flange with a 125-250 finish in the gasket area. It might seal better if they go back to a raised face giving a bit of spring in the flanges.

[@LVVideoGuy]

That sure is a nice chuck!!!!

[@benpress8884]

lmao "heighth" and "simular" really crack me up

[@chrischapel9165]

One of the things that I learn from content creators is patience and taking time to set/do things right from the get go. Watching Keith wrestle with the indicator stand is what I mean, I get frustrated with my stand in many aspects of setup and if I go with it instead of throwing a fit it'll work out plus save a ton of time.

[@philhermetic]

Nice video Keith! Interesting to hear that engaging and disengaging the sliding/ surfacing feed on your Clausing/colchester makes exactly the same noise as the identical control on my Colchester student lathe! Phil UK.

[@michaelweatherhead9470]

Thanks for the video Keith nicely done 👍❤❤. Take care of yourself and Girlfriend and be Blessed ❤️.

[@hodwooker5584]

I worked at a goldmine that used pipe flanges with this type of finish. Part of what the machinists did was how they would grind the tool radius. That Teflon lining in that pipe kind of makes me think, sewer pipe.

[@greggroos2271]

It's probably mortar, they line ductile iron piping with cement to slow corrosion. That pipe is pressurized, so likely a water service line. Lining sewer pipes with teflon would be pretty expensive! I wish I could get some teflon lined DWV tho, might cut down on clogs;)

[@andyloebrown8250]

Nice close-ups.

[@iandibley8032]

100% Keith ridgeity ,material type cast iron in your case helped, plus machinist experience . Some years back I had to machine a 1"x1" seal grooves in coned stainless section 40" flange on brewery fermentation tanks using a face plate quite difficult to set up & hold. Very slow speed & hand feeding using hhs & sulphur base oil. The job just had to be done, quite nervous operation.... possibly needing underwear replacement 😅

[@WVdavidB]

We call that a spool piece in the gas industry.

[@daveharriman2756]

That looked like a great set up in the chuck, that was going nowhere!

[@stuartlockwood9645]

Hi Keith 😀 I have some hearing loss and I could have sworn you said it was called a porn a graph finish, for a moment I nearly changed my glasses,lol. Joking aside the set up was solid, and no problems whith chatter, so a good result,. Hope the wrists are getting better, thanks for another interesting video mate, stay safe, best wishe's to you and Lisa. Stuart Uk.

[@ammagato]

Keith the first!

[@ÁREAJ27]

Olá amigo Keith como sempre um excelente trabalho!!! Acompanhando daqui do Brasil!!! Abraço e boa sorte sempre!!!

[@KeithFenner]

Cheers, hope all is well in Brazil....

[@patheron7812]

Thanks for the video. Like the other viewer, I'm afraid to remove my gap because I have never done it. How do you replace the gap and insure it is correctly aligned?

[@klaus5552]

hello You are turning a cast iron flange, which is rare, thanks for showing how important it is to properly fasten the workpiece. Often I also have to process the front area and the fabric is too long, I have a rest that I use. Regards and all the best for the new year. translator.

[@douglassmith2055]

Recommended surface feet per min for cast iron is 80 - 120 sfm. An 11in part @70 rpm is 200 sfm.

[@1320pass]

Good one. I don't think I've ever heard of a Polygraphic finish. But it makes sense as the cut is just a tight 'spiral' inward. Like a regular more fine cut too, basically.

[@BrianEltherington]

LOL. He said phonographic finish. Resembling the grooves in a phonograph vinyl record. No lie!

[@1320pass]

@@BrianEltherington Lol, I made a funny and didn't even mean to. Literally laughing out loud. But you're right. Photographic finish. 😂

[@Gottenhimfella]

2:20 I was wondering why Keith did not want to reverse the jaws, to avoid having to take out the gap?

[@KeithFenner]

Very good question! point one, pulling the gap is a snap, even faster than reversing the jaws. Point two, the inverted jaws would have reduced the rigidity of the toe clap stack up.

[@dougmarkham1919]

Love the full content format. Please don't change for the microwave crowd.

[@Gottenhimfella]

I agree except for the "patriotic" opening. I didn't have a problem with it until I spotted the prominent poster of the former guy, who in my considered opinion qualifies as a patriot in about the same way turkey tails do as food.

[@c6q3a24]

@@Gottenhimfella 80 million American disagree. They're your neighbors, co-workers, and likely your friends and family also.

[@Gottenhimfella]

@@c6q3a24 Is pretending to "know things you do not know and could not possibly know" a test you all have to pass, before you're allowed to wear the MAGA hat? (I'm just joking, I know it's your shared passport to the promised land of unlimited credulity)

[@curragh2840]

​@@GottenhimfellaMRGA

[@DK-vx1zc]

That came out great.. I was surprised you didn't wire wheel the flange surfaces first..

[@KeithFenner]

It's winter, and to wire wheel that surface off would have been an outside job, even in the fabrication side of my shop, I control that kind of crap spreading all over the place.

[@outsidescrewball]

Awesome discussion along with your experienced craftsmanship, I have contact info for the “rook” if needed

[@DK-vx1zc]

Please provide.. Thanks Chuck

[@GrumpyMac52]

Hi Keith if you don’t have a gap bed, would it be as effective clamping on the I D with the 4 jaw and then using the toe clamps on outside? Thanks

[@KeithFenner]

That is an option but may break up the protective coating they put inside the pipe, a brittle material...

[@arkansas1336]

@@KeithFenner...That is a cement lining, I installed many similar pieces during my career of building sewer treatment plants.

[@TERRYB0688]

A good tip to protect the ways is cling film,

[@peterlosangelos4108]

QUESTION: what about the grooving to hold the rubber gasket?

[@robertlark7751]

While the phonographic finish provides a surface the gasket material can flow into it also creates a "torturous" flow path to help slow down the system fluid from escaping thus preventing leakage.

[@arkansas1336]

I agree, that is the exact reason that kind of finish is used on the flanges. I used many of those flanged pipe during my career.

[@toolman7540]

Do a video making a tailstock setup with a chuck for project like this

[@WacoA.I.]

Did I miss something? Would a steady rest not work here? Piece too big?

[@KeithFenner]

Not one big enough and would still have to turn surface to use one.

[@Paul-jb7br]

Per asme code 16.5 (?) The raised face (grooves) can be concentric or spiral. If you didn't have a lathe you could cut off the bad flange and weld on a new flange. Looks to be 150# class so not too expensive.

[@mattmanyam]

Then how do you re-apply the concrete liner to the interior surface of the new flange?

[@rldoyle5705]

Make sure charge for new cutter tip that is concrete tar coating

[@jrb_sland]

25:50 I'm not yet hearing any music from the grooves. LOL Is your feed coarse enough? 27:24 Distinct difference in sound passing over the flange pipe threaded joint . Judging from chip size & appearance, I'd say flange is mild steel, pipe is cast iron. 27:41 Runout grooves sound about right for a 78 rpm disk! Well done ! 😇

[@jondavidmcnabb]

Keith, excellent video but I do have several of questions. 1. Why not remove have the half of the total amount from each end of the pipe? 2. Will removing that much material from only one end cause any issues with pressure tolerance? 3. Does the lining of the pipe have to be repaired after the machining to seal the liner ends?

[@KeithFenner]

I worked the surface as the customer requested, and they will be preparing the surfaces themselves, and it only serves as waiste water system low pressures...

[@thomaschandler8036]

Never heard of the word phonografic cut. Interesting....

[@skyking252]

Your Rook came from Andrew Podaca, aka The Toolmiser on KZbin. I hope to see you come back to the Bar-Z Bash again buddy.

[@EitriBrokkr]

Does he sell them?

[@Toolmiser]

@@EitriBrokkr He will have some for sale for the next Summer Bash. They are in limited production these days. 😉

[@EitriBrokkr]

@@Toolmiser so the answer is no. 🙄

[@jacquespoirier9071]

Cast iron is not that difficult to machine and the material itself tend to dampen the vibrations, If you had that piece in stainless steel, it would have been another challenge very well done excellent video, you are an excellent teacher.

[@joevehige8558]

Keith, would you ever recommend running a piece of all thread through the piece for additional clamp load? More trouble than what its worth? *edit: given you didn't have to face the entire thing or for radial work on something that far away.

[@rennypizarro4432]

That "Amen" at the end of that pledge of allegiance is very endearing. May God watch over and protect these young hearts and minds. Good to see you on the mend, Keith. Rock On. Thanks for sharing.

[@OldePhart]

lol, 1/8 inch off a spool. Been there... Someone forgot about the gasket or grounding rings?

[@arkansas1336]

Yep, supervisor messed up!

[@ccrider5398]

Would have you used a VTL if you had one?

[@ypaulbrown]

Hey Keith, when you mentioned a feed rate of .050, was that the actual on the cross slide ? ason some lathes, the longitudinal feed that is listed on the machine is sometimes 2 to 3 times faster than the feed of the cross slide, Just wondering, Paul

[@KeithFenner]

Yes my cross slide is a little less than the main feed as well

[@bcbloc02]

I guess the pipe section was too big diameter for your steady rest? Those rocker style hold downs are perfect for this kind of clamping to avoid having to fool with the extra bits. Lots of ways to do a job and You got er done though! 🙂

[@KeithFenner]

My rocker sets were to long....

[@martineastburn3679]

Almost like a wire brush would have cleaned both ends enough to do it. Good to get pretty ends.

[@ApukEldar]

👍👍

[@nghiadao141]

I love the picture on the wall.

[@thomasflemmingjohansen4136]

Hi Keith. I would have turned the 4 jaws 180 degree in the chuck. That would have avoided to remove the bed. Further the jaws would have had more contact to the chuck grooves and spindles. Or, am I missing something. Maybee I am. Best regards Thomas from Denmark.

[@joeblumber9327]

I thought the same but then considered the toe clamps would not be pulling against air and not the face of the chuck. That weakness would cause a less ridged clamping; but if there was no gap to open, that weakness could be offset by shimming. I like Kieth's technique.

[@MRcrem1]

You can check the face groves with a thread pitch gage.... maybe

[@jamesdrake2378]

I remember when you made Abom sad in the 4 jaw contest. What the hell happened to that channel it's comedy.

[@wmsloomis]

Abombs cooking and RV channel

[@tsmartin]

Bash another KZbinr on someone else's channel. Class act.

[@jamesdrake2378]

@@tsmartin don't get emotional

[@donaldwalker3738]

Question, Were you putting the phonographic linage back in 0r was it a non-issue? Always a informative effort on your part, even for me an amatory viewer.

[@Gottenhimfella]

It's a feature, to keep the gasket from moving about under pressure cycles. Being a helix, the resulting leakage path is hundreds of feet long, at least. And being a single path, that means it's not a problem, because it will be occluded in plenty of places (in series). So for it to leak would be like a wire conducting electricity despite multiple breaks.

[@johnnyholland8765]

Toe clamps allow you to be very creative when doing setup's. I learn something almost every time I watch one of your video's. I know there are many others on the "tube" but I think you rank among the best as far as job shop content. You and maybe ABomb but he seems to have gone "commercial" with his new shop and all. I liked his home shop videos the best. Your home shop content was always good too but your circumstances varied from his as to your new shop location. You have stuck with the conventional machines where he has some cnc now. I guess to each his own. Been following you for a long time and will continue as long as you make videos. You have done some epic set up's in the past on both mill and lathe and that is why I stick with you. Question though and that is how do you charge for a job when the set up takes longer than the actual cut?

[@KeithFenner]

The shop rate is shop rate, and setups are work, too. Oh, and don't forget to charge for cleaning up and putting away also.