Stop Making Batman Realistic

[@Sigmundfrued]

I feel the Arkham game series has the perfect balance of embracing both the realistic and fantasy elements of Batman. A live action film like the Arkham series would be perfect.

[@LEGOC-3PO]

The Arkham Batman is an almost perfect amalgamation of everything we know and love about Batman.

[@Sigmundfrued]

@@LEGOC-3PO agreed, we need a new game

[@S-Z-jf5zk]

plus they didn't change Batman like The Batman did.

[@velociraptor4you3291]

Agreed, 💯% (👍)!

[@MGrey-qb5xz]

that dude was....a monster lol

[@graefx]

That was part of what really resonated with me with Batfleck. He didn't look realistic. Leather texture cowl, sculpted muscles, a lot of the visual design of the DCEU really threaded the needle of bringing comicbook to life without going the full paramilitary look the MCU leans into. As much as The Batman kept me glued to the screen, I'll always lament that we never got Afflecks Batman sounding like a fantastical James Bond

[@ithamarlowe6158]

He’d have made a really cool James Bond. Too bad he’s old and dried up now

[@universoullifebalance]

They definitely need to do a batfleck version in addition to Matt reeves version. Batfleck is the closet comics adaptation to me and deserves a full length film.

[@critical_thinker0668]

With regards to the design, action scenes, and Affleck's performance, Batfleck was great. Writing wise, though, they missed the mark in BVS by having kill people and use guns without any exploration of how he got there from his previous perspective of not killing beyond a few vague lines and a Robin suit cameo in the Batcave. They don't even mention the no-kill rule directly, with Alfred just vaguely stating that "rage turns good men cruel". While Batfleck is closer to comic Batman in regards to the fantastical elements and his place in the wider DCU and all, Reeves' Batman is far more accurate to the characterization of comics Batman (and comic Batman did start out in a slightly more grounded setting fighting mobsters and the like although he was still kicking down trees and magically summoning bats, most of the inspiration for Reeves' film came from those comics). While Batfleck finally started acting like his comic book counterpart in ZSJL (which, yes, I know was supposed to be his character arc but the problem was BVS did not do a good job at setting that arc up properly), the idea to have an older Dark Knight Returns-esque Batman in the later years of his career only just now joining the Justice League was an odd choice and a massive waste of potential. One of the most fun things about a shared DC Universe is seeing the heroes grow and change alongside one another, exemplified particularly well in the post-Infinite Crisis JLA #0. Hopefully Gunn's new DCEU doesn't make the same mistake as while a movie with Damian as Robin sounds cool, having him show up before the Justice League would mean we'd be getting another Batman who's already been around for 10 years before joining the JLA.

[@BrutalCarnage]

i swear the Batman The animated series and the Justice league animated series is an almost perfect template that can be used in Live action. BTAS was grounded with Batman taking on street level goon whilst also having a fantastical rogue's gallery that when Batman transitioned into the Justice League it felt natural and not jarring. I still remember the first ep from Justice league with Aliens taking over the planet, that was such a good starting point to start from and introducing Batman to a world outside of Earth

[@lordskeletor4558]

Did you just post the same comment twice

[@Bugplanet8840]

@@lordskeletor4558it’s a glitch that happens when using desktop sites sometimes

[@RamManNo1]

BTAS is goat as far as setting the tone for Batman and feel of the mythos. Possibly even better than some of the best Batman comics. They just got it right.

[@BrutalCarnage]

@@lordskeletor4558 maybe i was isper vaked XDXD

[@plaidchuck]

Justice League was better than TAS. TAS was good for its time but still a kids show and hampered by the episodic format. They also underused characters or misused them like Robin and Catwoman, and totally ignoring any of the 90s runs because they were boomers/gen x who hated the 90s comics. Also Timm's obsession with the bruce/barbara relationship which ruined Batman Beyond

[@F0X1207]

Arkham Knight I know is a video game but I'm saying it's the closest thing we will ever get to a true unbiased and unrealistic and realistic Batman movie

[@ukmonk]

I thought the Keaton fight in the Russian Prison in the Flash was pretty cool!!

[@baligong3592]

This is what Realism is. It's combining both aspects and making it feel like reality. Naturalism is what people often thinks of when they hear someone say "Realism". Arkham Games, are indeed, Realistic, but definitely not Naturalistic.

[@Leprutz]

That is the reason why I still and always will love the Burton Batman movies. They are grounded in reality withall the fantastical elements that made Batman so spectacular in the first place. Plus It's the best portryed Gotham up until now.

[@Movieguy4040]

I feel like DCEU Batman wasn’t really that realistic

[@raymondrenol7205]

You mean Ben?

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

Agreed. He was just comic book batman. No Uber dark supernatural batman like Arkham either. Just regular comic book superhero batman who's dark.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

​@@raymondrenol7205yup

[@aapsentertainment3159]

I think he started off with more of a realistic aesthetic that became less apart of the character with each movie.

[@samuelpalmquist365]

I loved the DCEU batman! Gave me so much animated series and Dark Knight returns comic vibes

[@RegularJStudios]

I think it's time that we have a Batman, who has a fantastical world with fantastical rogues while treating it as if it were grounded and serious...

[@BrandonNielsen87]

Batman The Animated Series gave us that. Batman was very grounded and human in that show. Maybe The Batman 2 will be better. We’ll see.

[@RegularJStudios]

@@BrandonNielsen87 I'm talking about live action, but yes TAS did do that

[@justdaffy]

Batman Arkham had a fantastical world but took everything dead serious, I'm not sure if this concept would work outside of the world of video games or cartoons. But then again I can't say they've ever really tried

[@kysen1225]

the New DCU will have a more Comic Book accurate Batman let Joker and the Batman movies do their own thing they are Elseworld Stories

[@firstlast9846]

In Batman : Night Cries it was a fantastical Batman who stumbles upon a child abuse case.. the mixture of fantastical Batman and disgusting subject matter - was the best mixture of it I’ve seen. Heartbreaking story.

[@allsmilesguy]

My problem with a lot of modern superheroe content is that they can’t seem to allow any heavy emotions linger without throwing in some quippy joke to ease the tension. As funny as the Raimi Spiderman movies were, he was never afraid to let you sit with Peter in a sad and depressing moment. Now it’s sad for 2 seconds and then some comic relief has to say “oof this is getting dark lols”

[@ot7012]

@@rojaedavis8367 i think you need to read the comment again.

[@rojaedavis8367]

​@@ot7012LOL. Yeah, my bad.

[@legometaworld2728]

It all started with Thor Ragnarok, overall it was the best Thor film but my god they don’t let anything stay sad for more than two seconds in that one. Even Love & Thunder was better at this.

[@josiahp.6960]

What you're talking about is the Marvel plague. It began with Avengers 2, and got progressively worse. But humor keeps most audiences invested and comfortable, so it made it easy to fill seats.

[@FazeRustyNuts]

​@@legometaworld2728 thing's don't need to be "sad" to be good.

[@M-DVD]

This is the reason why I like the 1989 Batman so much, it's a movie but still cartoon-like.

[@MidnightIsolde]

It's serious but stylised, and unafraid of the fantastic.

[@LachlanVines]

I thought Batfleck bridged realism and fantasy super well. So disappointed his standalone film never happened

[@jrob4795]

Yes, Batfleck was a great example of what to do going forward

[@nofacedgoldfish6216]

Honestly, I like both. I hope Pattinson's Batman stays realistic, and I hope Gunn's new Batman to be more comic booky and isn't afraid to deal with someone who turns into a clay monster or a giant bat. That way we get both takes side by side. I also want to see the classic blue return(not counting The Flash's Batfleck. That was not a well made blue suit). Make it a dark and rich blue that is glossy/metalic, so it looks black in the dark and blue in light. Like a dark blue car.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

I prefer black and grey for a bat suit, if that's what you're talking about

[@SeasideDetective2]

That's fair. But I'd like to see them go even further and finally do a Tim Burton-directed sequel to BATMAN RETURNS that washes away the Joel Schumacher legacy. About 10 years ago, Michael Keaton said he'd be willing to play Batman again if Burton directed him, so why not? Even more than that, we need closure for MIchelle Pfeiffer's character. I've heard for years now people praising BATMAN RETURNS for depicting Catwoman as a heroine and a "strong woman," but they've missed the point entirely. Selina Kyle was the psychologically and emotionally weakest of the sympathetic characters and got no happy ending, so, despite the fact she killed him, in the end Max Shreck won. NOBODY wanted to see that happen. Catwoman was always Selina's true enemy, so her story cannot truly end until she conquers Catwoman.

[@boboboy8189]

Gunn's batman is batman brave and bold where its Just modern interpretation of batman 66. So batman Will cracking jokes and you gonna love it (propaganda)

[@nenirouvelliv]

Yeah, I think solo Batman works great as a (semi)realistic one and Justice League Batman should be the ubermensch detective with fantastical elements.

[@maximeteppe7627]

So regarding Reeves, I like that it's grounded without being actually realistic: no city is this rain soaked all the time. In that spirit, there are elements that I find a bit dissonent. First, what we've seen of the joker is too goofy - it's a grindhouse horror villain in a stylish neo noire. But in the reverse, Batman's suit is a bit too armor like and "realistic". I feel ike for this very gothic Gotham, they should have leaned on the elongated, shadowy silhouette more than the glossy armor. Having the cape fall over the front of the suit whenerver he isn't fighting would be a better fit for this moody vampiric batman, though that's a stylistic element that might be more suited to the sequels, when batman is no longer a vengeful vigilante and more of a spirit of the city.

[@MarkEdwarMurphy]

It depends on the movie. I like the more ‘grounded’ Batman movies myself, at least live action wise. The Burton films have a place in my heart but I like Nolan’s world more.

[@jingleballs9935]

I think we’re done with that now after bale imo.

[@raymondrenol7205]

Yeah I feel like a mix of the two is good. The action sequences need work and that’s the only part of the Nolan films that need a serious improvement. Ben’s action scenes really do the character justice and explains why ppl were so afraid of him. He’s meant to be untouchable to the average man but both bale and Pattinson seemed to very vulnerable

[@aapsentertainment3159]

What’s funny is I actually prefer more grounded stories overall but with just being given the same thing, I just get uninterested. I think that’s a big thing the MCU is having trouble with at the moment, finding variety in how they tell stories.

[@Rippersauc3]

​​@@raymondrenol7205well Pattinson's Batman is literally a noob still. So it's important not to leave that context out. Plus at the end he did stuff like full looping around a pipe like spiderman with his grapple hook so I wouldn't say he was too grounded like Bale.

[@kevinmorrice]

​@@aapsentertainment3159the grounded batman feels more right, as batman is just a rich guy in a costume, he needs the realism to support his growth as a hero

[@-TheBatman]

I hope one day we get do see a grounded take that embraces the fantastical too. It seems wb wants to either go all in with the fantastical elements or fully realistic but a bit of both worlds would be the key. Hopefully Matt Reeves will push the boundaries in the sequels of his crime saga.

[@jingleballs9935]

We getting clayface in the next movie. I like to see this Batman go against more of that.

[@BrutalCarnage]

i swear the Batman The animated series and the Justice league animated series is an almost perfect template that can be used in Live action. BTAS was grounded with Batman taking on street level goon whilst also having a fantastical rogue's gallery that when Batman transitioned into the Justice League it felt natural and not jarring. I still remember the first ep from Justice league with Aliens taking over the planet, that was such a good starting point to start from and introducing Batman to a world outside of Earth

[@donut_jam]

yeah like throw a baterang or two. we havent seen that in a while, the more grounded movies never show all of his martial art and incredibly high speed.

[@Drowned_King]

@@jingleballs9935when did they say that 😂😂😂

[@Drowned_King]

@@jingleballs9935that was a rumor all the way back in September. There’s been no villain releases

[@blackdragon6]

I felt Batfleck is the closest we got to a comicbookish Batman.

[@hearthatbird]

It's definitely Nolan's fault. No wonder I liked Keaton so much in flash. It was such a breath of fresh air.

[@WERV2003]

Yes, if you think about it, it was Nolan's fault, Batman Begins had a better visual style than its sequels, but I think Begins was the exception because there was surely interference from how Warner wanted the film to be and that Nolan had total creative freedom in TDK and TDKR and that's why they both seem more like typical Christopher Nolan movies with Batman guest characters.

[@blacklivesorblackvotes2985]

@@WERV2003 yeah, honestly, Batman Begins wasn’t really realistic. There were very much fantastical or fictional elements like the fear toxin and how that messed with people’s minds. And Batman in Begins was depicted as how he usually is: a freak or force of nature. Honestly, Batman Begins is the least realistic movie out of the 3, and that’s probably why it’s my favorite.

[@StraightEdgeKnight19]

@@WERV2003nah it ain’t Nolan’s fault, do u remember where Batman was at prior to Batman Begins? Or where u to young?

[@WERV2003]

@StraightEdgeKnight19 Batman & Robin, but may I remind you how WELL received the first films were before B&R? It wasn't necessary to go for the realistic direction when Spiderman 2002 prove that it is not necessary to hide the fantasy elements to make a good superhero movie, you can have a millionaire with a split personality, a doctor with superhuman strength, a sandman and a alien from space and still deal with mature themes such as the life of a teenager without money.

[@StraightEdgeKnight19]

@ may I remind u what Batman movie made a billion after Begins and is constantly hailed as the greatest comic book movie of all time?

[@jaybosstv9324]

Yeah it makes it hard to use villains like mr freeze, poison ivy, croc, clayface, etc when they focus on making batman groundable.

[@deletedwaffles]

But I also like how they come up with ways to ground some of these villains too. I remember reading about how Poison Ivy could be a bioterrorist.

[@jaylenjayden9305]

Grounded and realism aren’t synonyms reeeves can make all those characters work in his universe the arkham games grounded the characters without stripping their comic elements realism is the Nolan trilogy where the characters are stripped completely stripped of their elements to fit in the real world You forget this is the same guy who grounded planet of the apes He can easily ground fantastical characters without completely stripping them of their fantastical elements

[@thesuperiorhobgoblin9048]

​@@deletedwafflesand technically killer croc is supposed to be just a big dude with a skin condition that makes him look like a lizard man. Just don't try making him an actual crocodile man and he can still work. Most of Batman's villains can technically work. Ivy is a bioterrorist with a thing for plants, bane is just a dude raised in prison and hopped up on an experimental drug, Mr freeze could just have a non transferable disease that makes it so he can't live for longer then 5 minutes outside of freezing temperature. Sure characters like manbat and clayface wouldn't work but they weren't really that big of standalone villains anyway.

[@raymondrenol7205]

@@deletedwafflesbut it also diminishes Batman’s legacy and undermines Batman’s sheer will and determination. Instead showing Batman overcome insane odds against superhumans and it just reduces them by to a bunch of nihilistic psychopaths with a lot of resources fr.

[@jhngrg8132]

​@@thesuperiorhobgoblin9048you're missing the point. All of those characters are perfect the way they are, they don't need change. We have the definitive batman in btas and in the arkham games. Let's stick to that, no more deviations. The latest batman movie doesn't feel like batman anymore, replace batman with any other masked avenger in the movie and it will still feel like the same movie.

[@ClosedCasketCollectibles]

What I love about Batman 1989 and Batman Returns is that it actually wasn’t trying to make anything realistic. The world design, the character designs, heck some of the set pieces- it was like straight out of a comic book or even later felt like an episode out of the animated series. Fitting since those two films did inspire the animated series.

[@SeasideDetective2]

But they weren't cartoonish; they were operatic. That's why they worked.

[@jogymogy3691]

Batman Returns is a pretty horny movie

[@sherlockinsomniac]

No. What you loved about those movies was the fact that you were an impressionable child when they came out. Nothing can ever compete with what you saw as a kid. Those movies were objectively goofy and campy. Me seeing them today makes me cringe. The nolan batman movies aged so much better.

[@SeasideDetective2]

@@sherlockinsomniac "Goofy" and "campy" were most definitely not words critics were using to describe Burton's films at the time. Roger Ebert called the '89 film "ugly," "evil," "tragic," and "not for kids," and said he felt sorry for those children who did enjoy it.

[@jamiejoe4802]

​@@sherlockinsomniacwrong take, I watched batman 89 with my son in 4k and pacing, cinematography and the sets are fantastic, yes it's dated but only regarding miniatures, batman is darker and joker is the most sadistic we have had on screen.

[@3badisnothere]

Bro we already got a taste of a non-realistic Batman with the DCEU. Batfleck was fighting alongside superheroes, killed demons and aliens, and fought FUCKING Superman. We can only wait for what James Gunn is cooking with for the DCU Batman because his take will definitely be more aligned with the comics.

[@aapsentertainment3159]

Yup, I hope so!!! I’m actually very optimistic about Gunn’s universe. And you said yourself Ben’s was only a taste, I want a whole meal, and I’m sure Gunn will deliver.

[@filthykallahan6399]

I mean, Batman HAS fought Superman in the comics

[@93King]

​@@filthykallahan6399 That's the point.

[@firstlast9846]

DCEU Batman was a nihilistic Punisher

[@TejasShastri-lh2mq]

@@firstlast9846 lmao punisher already is a much more nihilistic character than this Batman

[@ruddyhoodtv2468]

The Batman movie had no "Because he's Batman" moments. That was the deal breaker for me.

[@legendary_noob8941]

This is why the Arkham games version of Batman is my favorite interpretation of the character. He is based on realism but also has so many supernatural elements in his story which doesn’t limit him from fighting characters like Killer Croc, Clayface, Solomon Grundy, etc. Hands down my favorite Batman interpretation to date.

[@zeallexandre]

They forget that any human in comics is a super human compared to a human in real life. Batfleck carries the fights in theaters.

[@marcysroom2949]

Every human superhero is somehow just peak human or has peak talents like Green arrow or Ted kord blue beetle

[@silver______]

@@marcysroom2949It’s not Somehow, they train daily, heal faster than Irl humans, which means more muscle growth and dedicate their ‘lives’ to improving themselves for the greater good. That and all the characters you named have different tiers of Peak human, for Ex Batman is Peak human and so is Green arrow, however Batman is still notably physically superior.

[@hydrolito]

Home Alone the Bandits had to be superhuman to survive all that how can one be electrocuted until a burnt skeleton and still alive?

[@lukefantini]

Fully agree! I was not a huge fan of The Flash, but watching Keaton's reprisal of the role as a clever, quick, acrobatic Batman had to be the best part. His flight/combat felt like a live version of the dynamic style of the Arkham games

[@murphyoalexander51]

Everything Batman did in the Flash was still realistic, in the Batman he`s not the finished article yet, also so far in it he`s only been trained by Alfred and fought normal men, how do most villians become what they are? Accidents, whuch surely you`ll agree is realistic and i dont want just a butler, makes more sense he was Thomas waynes bodyguard, there is still 2 movies to come, plenty of time for Batman to grow and get better.

[@xcarnage3936]

People seem to forget that being a detective is a huge part of who batman is.

[@5starrchase]

that’s literally all he is but with a bat suit

[@Crukren89]

This is why some of these apparent batman fans hating on " The Batman " are perplexing

[@Riteye]

That's honestly why this was one of my favorite versions of him. They actually showed him as a detective, not just a superhero.

[@jrob4795]

Him being a detective is a PART of who he is…it’s not the biggest part. Batman is a jack of all trades, and it sucks that most films only focus on one aspect of who this man is, and what he can do.

[@DippyTheFresh]

Yeah exactly. To me, that's the best way to portray Batman, truly peak.

[@waydem1]

Dceu batman was not realistic

[@DippyTheFresh]

@@waydem1 My point exactly

[@bertt1055]

Punisher is the most realistic.

[@SonOfSparda03]

​@@bertt1055hes marvel not DC tho

[@bertt1055]

@@SonOfSparda03 haha I know. I just meant superheroes in general.

[@Crow_Rising]

While it's a quote meant for gaming, Gabe Newell in a recent documentary dropped a quote that could honestly be applied to fictional media in general. He was talking about how some members of the team would complain about certain things being too unrealistic during development, and his response to that line of thinking, although I don't remember the exact wording off the top of my head, can be paraphrased as basically "So? How would making it more realistic make it more interesting? When I play games I play them to have fun, to get away from the constraints of reality, not to still be shackled by it. Since when is being more realistic more fun?" The same logic could absolutely apply to movies, books, TV shows, etc. For some types of stories realism absolutely is the point and staying grounded is a mark of quality. For most fiction however the entire point is that things impossible and illogical in our reality can happen, the imagination is allowed to go wild. Realistic Batman is an idea that was interesting and novel a long time ago but it's been long enough now for us to know that Batman stories are most enjoyable when they're not generally grounded in reality. Batman stories are at their best when they are larger than life and Batman himself is no different. Anyone who's a fan of the comics knows that there's nothing even remotely realistic about Batman as a character. He's capable of things he absolutely should not be capable of simply because of his unique combination of super smarts, peak condition and fighting skills, and often even plot armor. None of this is a weakness to the character, it's all part of why he's so popular to begin with. His plot armor isn't a bug, it's a feature. It's a key component of what makes him Batman, what makes his stories interesting and his characterization in Justice League stories actually useful.

[@silver______]

You said it. Having a realistic Batman really twists the character if you ask me, I don’t like him because he was realistic but rather because he’s human, he acts human, feels human and has human emotions and reactions. Which makes him relatable. Batman should 100% always be unrealistic in terms of his rogues and physically, Seeing a man raise up and fend off against Impossible odds, like David and Goliath, pushing the limits of what he can do, never backing down no matter what and analyzing & adapting, will always be better than a Batman who can’t even Dodge a bullet or aim Dodge, and his biggest foil is someone holding him at gunpoint. Realistic and grounded Batmen stories usually mean that 70% of the mythos get Cut out, some of his most important friends are also cut, Gotham is watered down and Batman is dumbed down.

[@liebeasta3332]

Batman should be grounded to some extent. All heroes were made for certain things. You can do fantastical things in a grounded way When Batman deals with aliens it should be in a flash Gordon way or body snatcher way. Recent comics are the ones losing touch with where Batman is suppose to be.

[@silver______]

@@liebeasta3332 Where Batman is suppose to be? He’s never been where you appear to want him to be. Batman wasn’t made to be grounded if that’s what you’re getting at.

[@aweirdwombat]

He's not really human. If you read the comics he's one of the smartest people and he can magically plan for everything. It's funny because they've actually turned him into one of the least human superheroes in the comics. And don't get me started some of the bat brained ways he behaves there too. There's definitely good Batman stories though. It's just he's kind of like Wolverine. People love him so much he's able to do things no human can do-no, I mean he's able to do things that even no meta human can do.

[@liebeasta3332]

@@silver______ I said he SHOULD be grounded to some extent because this overly fantasical approach has led to some really bad writing choices making batman trade punches with Superman without a mech or exoframe suit. I generally like stories where Batman has to crawl through mud just to grasp for that last glimmer of hope. To me he's cool when he's being a he is awesome and an inspiration if he pushes through hardships. or the hardships eventually become overwhelming.I just don't thinks stories like these are done well if he randomly comes up with a god tier plan with no prior buildup or he has superhuman feats of strength and speed that even meta humans can't produce and that BS they used to explain it away i think it was miracle manipulation or something I can't remember

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

About that. How exactly is he human? Because between him and Superman. The human one is the alien.

[@dennybecton]

I think you hit it right on the nail. I’ve been tired of this kind of Batman for a long time and been aching for a new take. People always say you can’t have the blue and gray suit or any of these wilder things cause it’s too silly, yet most of the best Batman stories have these elements. You just have to embrace them as part of the character and take it as seriously as the characters do in the universe themselves.

[@Gotham_bat759]

Personally I’m not a huge fan of the blue and gray, I’m more of a black and gray. I agree though that it’s getting tiring to see this same realistic Batman that doesn’t have the cool stuff from the comics. Batman can have a serious and gritty world while also leveling out the fantasy elements. I crave for a film that has a legit batcave (Arkham origins and BTAS) and a rogues gallery that isn’t dumbed down because it’s too silly to some people. Arkham games is a perfect example of that vibe. Respect the fantasy but find that perfect combo of what a Batman film needs

[@Sumunuhriginal]

Blue suit is silly even in a fantastical universe. Bats aren’t even blue why would someone called Batman be wearing a goofy blue suit lol

[@dennybecton]

@@Sumunuhriginal it’s a story about a guy in tights dressing like a bat and fighting a clown. It’s already inherently silly. Plus blue is actually better for stealth than black. Blues and grays are more natural for the nighttime. Ninja actually wore dark blue and dark gray robes rather than black. Black stands out

[@SeasideDetective2]

Not to mention that taking yourself seriously is no guarantee that others will take you seriously. People don't automatically deem a story a masterpiece just because it's stern and moralistic. Mel Gibson's THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST was as serious as a movie could get, and many people still called it junk. Today's filmmakers need to look for inspiration at the grand operas of the Baroque/Classical/Romantic era of music, because the best storytelling is always operatic. And opera is more nuanced that people credit it, because it deals with ALL aspects of emotion. Mozart's "Don Giovanni" is very comical throughout the majority of the performance, but then turns very dark and tragic at the end - and it's precisely because of the earlier humor that the ending packs such a traumatic punch.

[@courtneyellis7988]

Black and grey suits unecessary, the Arkham knight style suit for Batman would work well, or update it make it more sleek but keeping it modern and realistic in the sense of looking durabale and bulletproof etc.

[@JRCSalter]

One of the things I don't believe gets enough credit is the Burton and Schumacher films embraced the Goth in Gotham. While Batman works best when dark, this doesn't necessarily mean realistic, and I feel those films understood that (there were other problems with the Schumacher films that made them bad, but I don't think it was the tone).

[@maximillienrobespierre7262]

I still struggle with understanding what’s even the thought process behind a realistic Batman. “Hmm, yes so it’s a comic about a detective who dresses like a bat, his arch nemesis is a murderous clown who survived an acid bath and likes to have silly gadgets with his own face on them (not to mention that green lady who controls plants and a guy made literally out of clay) Let’s make it realistic!” I mean… why is realistic Batman even a trend? This is not a universe that lends itself to realism. It’s nightmarish, lovecraftian almost, a bit silly a bit crazy and even the characters that seem human on the surface (e.g. Joker) are completely unrealistic and capable of surviving absurd stuff over and over again.

[@601marcusable]

batman has a stoic mindset and he keeps fighting even if the odds are against him

[@zipblockarchives900]

This is why I love Batman in animated form more.

[@vjthehandsome5659]

Ironic that you mentioned year one. In the version of year one that I got there were afterwords with David Mazzuccelli (the illustrator) talking about his views on Batman and realism that i think sums it up really well: "Once a depiction veers toward realism, each new detail releases a torrent of questions that exposes the absurdity at the heart of the genre."

[@ZeroOmega-vg8nq]

Can agree here. Im really tired of how they keep trying to make batman "grounded and realistic" The part i like about batman isnt that hes realistic. Its that hes so damn human

[@aidanrock8719]

human = unrealistic I guess?

[@ZeroOmega-vg8nq]

@@aidanrock8719 i think they keep forgetting batman may be the most human hero in a universe of more godly heros and so they focus on his humanity somehow needing to be "unfantastical"

[@richos07]

@@aidanrock8719it’s not that. It’s the idea that he as a human can stand amongst literal gods like Superman and Wonder Woman and taking on their enemies. Though having him being grounded and realistic is good, it takes away that element.

[@Owen-sx4jj]

@@richos07 they got it right in the synderverse where he was actually capable of going toe to toe with parademons

[@SupportTheLittleGuy]

Hopefully gunns will be different, I’m sure it will have to be considering pattinson and bales movies have already taken realistic approaches

[@hurleymacfar]

I'm also fed up of a realistic and grounded Batman but also equally fed up of KZbinrs using the effect that makes things look like an old VHS tape.

[@aapsentertainment3159]

But it’s kinda cool, you gotta admit.

[@dr.nickchicoine1700]

"All of this so he can avoid going to therapy!" 😂

[@TheSeptacle]

I love this version of Batman, fight me

[@boboboy8189]

- Dumb batman, he only solved Last puzzle while the rest is other do it for him. - Batman only doing ninja stuff in third act, he should do it since his first appearance - Bruce Wayne is unlikable throughout the whole movie, you can still can make annoying but likable character such as Tony stark and Dr strange but Matt reeves failed doing that - catwoman blaming White and not elitist is not from the lore of batman, its forced and woke at the same time

[@riccardo3071]

​@@boboboy8189 Pattinson is s bad batman. Still better than ben Affleck tho... He seems a chubby 50 years old fascist with a bat suit

[@Rengokuo4o6]

​@@riccardo3071 batfleck could keep ass. Pattinson is lame AF.

[@perfect112customs]

Personally, I’m a sucker for grounded and realistic. However, grounded and fantastical is a combo that also works very well-Infinity War is something that comes to mind. You take it seriously and it isn’t goofy/campy, but it’s extremely unrealistic and fantastical at the same time

[@waffler-yz3gw]

thats my favorite type of fantasy, i want crazy wacky stuff to happen but i also dont want the characters to fight a giant monster that nearly kills them and then go "well, THAT just happened"

[@ac_nerd9794]

I love a realistic Batman. The Batman and Daredevil are amazing because the protagonists that we see on screen are getting their asses beat but they get back up and fight off the foes. I'd much prefer a realistic Batman over a Batman that easily touches Superman or Flash in combat. I think they could add the more fantastical elements of Batman lore but a grounded Batman is the perfect way to have a story when pitting man against monster if Killer Croc is brought into the sequels. Or seeing his detective side much better like with Hush. I also don't agree that adapting Clayface or Croc would be bad for Reeves. Pitting a man against more fantastical themed characters wouldn't be awful. The Croc scene could easily take place in the sewer and shot more like a horror mystery moment.

[@silver______]

Hard disagree. The only way Batman could work in the Dcu, be on the JL and fight alongside other hero’s, is if he’s not realistic. His physical aptitude really doesn’t matter, what matters is how human he is, and how good the writing is. Idc if Batman is keeping pace with the Flash, as long as the writing is superb.

[@ac_nerd9794]

@@silver______ That's ridiculous. The fact Batman can keep up with The Flash is the most ridiculous thing in comics. I'm all for good writing but Batman is definition of plot armor any day of the week. His physical aptitude needs to be somewhat relatable. I like seeing Batman fight, but just like the movie Justice League War, Batman wouldn't stand a chance against Superman in a real fight. He could keep away for a short little time, but Batman needs to have his strengths and weaknesses. He can't just walk up to Superman and beat him in a fist fight. As for how human Batman is, all that goes out the water when it comes to Superman because just like us, he has human morals and was raised human but people refuse to think about how human he really is even with all that power. Black Widow and Hawkeye fight with the Avengers, yet they keep up and are more grounded. Batman can do the same.

[@silver______]

@@ac_nerd9794 Well Batman is a ridiculous character. Batman has never kept up with Flash, it was an example I made up. However tagging a speedster isn’t ridiculous, humans in comics are stronger and faster than us Irl exponentially, and Speedsters don’t constantly travel at their top speed and usually only move however fast they have to. Why did plot armor get brought into this? You are aware that Batmans ultra thicc plot amor is quite literally a myth, it’s just an ongoing Joke, Writers have been on the record stating in summary that *Batman does what he can do, not what he can’t. If he does it, it’s because he can, not because some magical force known as Plot armor.* Dc have also officially released Databook And guide book statements Backing that up. Further even if he was riddled with it, if Plot armor is consistent in a character, by definition it’s no longer plot armor because the feats are consistent. *Keep in mind I’m not saying he doesn’t have PA nor are the writers.*

[@ac_nerd9794]

@@silver______ The difference is Batman has always been his best when he is in his role as the battle strategist with the nice gadgets. He's not the brusier or the speedster, he is the a genius. Humans are supposed to be stronger in fiction and in most cases, are. However, when will any human even fall from the sky from orbit without something to protect them and get up? I just became aware of this Barbatos person. He supposedly is the reason Batman hasn't died and that's just an excuse. Batman's ultra thicc plot armor is no myth. A writer can say he's just doing what he is capable of. If that's the case, Batman shouldn't even be considered human anymore. Plot armor is ridiculous in all honesty but it doesn't take a genius to distinguish that Batman or Bruce wouldn't ever be able to do half the stuff he does if the writer had any sense at all. Even if comic humans are stronger, faster, and more intelligent for that matter, even then Batman would need some form of power to do what he does. And just like people ignoring Superman's humanity, everyone loves to say he has plot armor more than anyone. Batman if done right doesn't have to be some over the top untouchable fighter to have a fantastical element to his gritty realistic movies. Batman can easily have a Killer Croc, a Bane, and a Poison Ivy in his more grounded versions. With so much lore, and the argument being that darker realistic Batmen can't have fantastical elements in their movies is wrong. Of course Battinson can fight a Killer Croc and it be realistic while also having that fantastical element. But Batman doesn't have to be over the top for him to have a good movie with some of his more powerful villains.

[@silver______]

@@ac_nerd9794 His Physical Aptitude has never been relatable. Applying realistic standards to a fight that involves a character as unrealistic as superman, from an unrealistic verse, is almost hypocritical because realistically Superman wouldn’t have powers. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have weaknesses, in fact he should be the most vulnerable member of the league, and his greatest weapon should be his mind not his muscles. I never said he could fist fight superman, however if he did and the writing was good, with the reason and the how both covered, I’d have no reason to complain. Why is superman relevant? I was talking about Batman being portrayed as he is, human. Superman can’t get sick, Batman can, Superman breaks a bone it heals in two seconds, not for Batman. The reason people don’t view superman as more human, is because we are constantly reminded that he isn’t. Black widow & Hawkeye don’t keep up, Widow was constantly getting thrown around in the first Avengers, and Hawkeye kept taking L’s. In the second movie, Hawkeye can’t save himself which results in the death of Quicksilver, and Widow is again rendered mostly irrelevant in the 3rd half of AOU. In Both character have taken up important positions in the plot, but usually spend most their time getting steamrolled. Captain America is a better comparison for Batman, they both take leader like positions, are expert tacticians and actually fight alongside or with the top tiers on their respective teams, while simultaneously being given the same level of respect as Thor and Ironman despite not being on their power level. Unlike widow and Hawkeye. No one complained about Caps superhuman feats against Thor, Ultron and others, because he was well written. As long as Batman is well written what he’s physically capable of doing is irrelevant.

[@Tlkazl]

This is like saying "Batman can't be dark,depressing, and grounded"

[@bladetc]

because you have lived long enough to watch batman for 18 years doesnt mean every younger kid has. So keeping the tradition is important for the younger gens to know what batman is all about. If you are tired of watch batman for 18 years just go watch something else. Same for you doesnt necessarily is the same for everyone else. BTW FYI i have also been watching batman for more than 18 years and i think Mat Reeves version is one of the best in my opinion.

[@WERV2003]

WTF, you don't get his point, he's not tired of Batman as such, he's tired of realistic Batman.

[@logan2b]

As long as it’s emotionally real it doesn’t matter how fantastical the world is

[@jonathanspivey437]

A work of fiction being serious and a work of fiction being realistic are not the same thing, and dont have to have the other to be portrayed. For instance, one of my absolute favorite scenes from the Dark Knight Trilogy is one Bruce and Alfred are discussing how they'll have to order 10,000 of the masks so the masks wont look so supsicious. Its little things like that, explaining the fantastic, making an honest effort to maintain consistency, and the subtle quirks(like Alfred explaining to Bruce that it looks suspicious with him sleeping til 3pm every day) that makes the Nolan Trilogy not just a great superhero movie, but a great trilogy of movies period. They still dealt with some fantastic concepts like the batbike escape pod, the EMP weapons Bruce had in Rises, etc. Yes, it was fairly grounded for a superhero story, but it wasnt 100 percent realistic. But it did, at least most of the time take itself, and its characters, seriously. And thats what makes a good story great.

[@xaayer]

I would disagree with Batfleck being grounded. He was grim but not grounded. He existed in a world of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. The two suicide squad movies also exist in that universe and, regardless of their quality, the tone of those characters and their powers do not clash with Batfleck. He also was insanely athletic for his size and bulletproof for what he apparently wore. It would be quite easy to see Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow, Bane (done right), Killer Croc, etc. existing in his world because his world felt like one more step up on the fantastical from the Arkham Series where those characters also already exist flawlessly. TL;DR: Batfleck was the best Batman imo and was potentially the closest to modern comic-accurate Batman we have gotten. The suit looked like it came off the page, he moved for the first time like you'd expect him to move (Arkham series combat), and his world felt real but not realistic.

[@acrsclspdrcls1365]

You equate grounded with realistic, they are not the same. Nolan's was realistic, Snyder's was grounded. You can introduce fantastical elements in a grounded setting, but it's impossible to do so in a more realistic setting.

[@xaayer]

@@acrsclspdrcls1365 I was using the terms used in the video.

[@acrsclspdrcls1365]

@@xaayer The creator interchanges the two it seems.

[@josiahp.6960]

Snyder's character isn't Batman. That is not Bruce Wayne. Dropping down behind Deadshot in an alleyway to kidnap him in front of his daughter? Does that remind anyone of perhaps a traumatic event in Bruce's life that he maybe is spending his whole life torturing himself to prevent from happening again? That's not Batman.

[@theendersmirk5851]

It's been said a couple dozen times, but due to where we are introduced to Batfleck, the character is Punisher in a bat costume who tries to not be quite as much of the Punisher. That is the difference between him and a fantastical Batman: he isn't really Batman. Not where we see him. He's not really intelligent, for the most part he's a brute. He's skilled but not in the flashy Kung Fu looking way we'd expect from a Batman. His Batmobile has a kill count. These are the divergences that make the character hard to reconcile as a Batman.

[@tony.h321]

I agree with the main points of this video. Also very tired of Hollywoods constant rehashing, and rebooting, and blind sticking to worn-out money-maker formulas. I agree with variety (in approach, ie. creativity) but also think that too much variety in characters and side-plots (eg. squashing in as many villains and side characters as possible) can, and has been, a disservice. Personally, I think a high budget batman series could solve a lot of issues spoken about here though. I think seperate episodes would fit batmans original "spirit" and conception better. Same goes for many/most other comic book adaptions (graphic novels are an exception). Of course, it all depends on what the execs allow. Could be a disaster. But theres always been that risk.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

Realism isn't the problem, the problem is how Realism to these people means visually uninspired with no color.

[@MonsterKidCory]

The Batman was an impressive film, and I really liked how it gave us fresh, new takes on Batman like "you're not very different from your foes" and "if you keep this up it'll kill you."

[@gu244]

Yeah i really enjoyed it, though it was maybe a bit long.

[@comicalcosmonaut959]

It explores Batman’s self destructive behaviors and how he should rise from it and be a better hero. AND I LOVE IT

[@cicerojohn581]

it was ok

[@10human7]

Honestly perfect interpretation of a younger batman

[@InzaneMane]

I really don't get what's people's problem with darker and more realistic takes on Batman, his foes and Gotham City. I guess that's the only way how this character works right on the big screen, but it seems that many people wanna have a more goofy version of Batman back again.

[@brandiepop]

the thing is pattinsons batman was the most comic accurate (by far) yet still probably the most plausible for the real world, because of his comic accuracy and pure talent in acting as well as the movie having some of the greatest sound design and cinematography ever and all on top of an extremely interesting story this movie is my favourite superhero movie and a top movie in general for me, I do hope to see a less realistic yet still comic accurate version of batman as the closest weve seen to that was afleck, by what weve seen from gunn before he is incredible at comic accuracy and anti-realism so i hope to see these two batmen be incredible but completely different kinds of comic book accurate

[@WERV2003]

The Riddler was comic accurate?

[@skxlter5747]

BATFLECK was the closest we ever got to a comic accurate batman (new 52), but theres nothing wrong into translasting batman into a grounded world, he is only a man with no superpowers just pure raw skill and strong muscle memory. The character of batman has managed to remain relevant for over 75 years because the character thrives on different interpretation depending on whos writing him.

[@boboboy8189]

In BvS, its actually the dark knight return graphic novel. In ZSJL yes he became batman from new52

[@ETAontheway]

I’ve been saying this for so long I hate when they try to make Batman realistic that’s why affleck Batman is the best live action Batman of all times so far

[@IamEchelon]

Thank you for making this video cause I was about to lose my mind

[@meghanandrockmackay5804]

I’m hoping the 2nd Matt Reeves Batman movie will dive into more fantastical but grounded villains like Mr. Freeze and Killer Croc. Not necessarily character’s that have special power’s, but one’s that have physical or mental alterations. Also maybe have villains that use technology.

[@JohnMarstonLegendOfTheWest]

Blud Batman 2022 was fucking awesome, Kids have so many DC Characters at their fingertips. Batman should be for the dads as well as the teenagers

[@firstlast9846]

But they don’t always need to be so realistic.. it ruins like 90% of his lore if it’s all realistic

[@flowrebaz6189]

Taking a story seriously doesn’t mean it needs realistic and serious

[@ArchangelExile]

6:46 That Harley Quinn though... that face...

[@zadeyeager872]

If we’re to write any Batman story I’d take inspiration from The Batman 2004. Such good character designs and fun stories. Plus a very well done Bruce Wayne.

[@Tabby3456]

My only issue with realism batman is that its always a bomb threat, no other diverse threat like the mad hatter feeding people delusions or The Penguin trying to take over gotham with his (little) mafia

[@Linklex7]

Hollywood needs to stop using Year One as a bible.

[@justinhunt4767]

I didn't like it

[@lucasgraeff5391]

I really like the arkham games universe! It seems really balanced as in, I never really thought about this aspect, if it was realistic or not, I just played the game, everything fit so well

[@nexusshark]

Honestly, I was kinda disappointed after watching The Batman. I feel like the movie made him TOO realistic. Also the movie didn't need to be as long as it was.

[@blackcomicnerd3657]

I think Batman Begins was realistic, but it could have fit into a world where Superman and The Flash are around. The Gotham City in the movie felt like comic Gotham whereas Gotham City in The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises felt like Chicago.

[@Juzreg]

You liked Love and Thunder didn’t you?

[@aapsentertainment3159]

Nope

[@MadMax-de5uh]

I want a realistic Batman but with fantastical elements

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

He needs to do things like perform neurosurgery (like he did with Two-Face) while some one man army Ip Man/ Himura Kenshin stuff. They need to embrace this stuff and stop watering him down.

[@boboboy8189]

You means grounded.

[@boboboy8189]

​@@FriendlyBatDoomi don't think majority hollywood watch IP Man or rurouni Kenshin. It takes action director watching those movie and zack snyder is fans of Asian action movie. He Even watch the raid, IP man, rurouni Kenshin, old chinese wuxia movies and indonesia movie

[@TheChubbyd07]

You simply cannot lump Batfleck with the others. The warehouse fight scene alone makes him the best iteration of Batman to date.

[@Samson003]

Perfect suit too! To be honest, I loved everything about Ben’s performance as Batman. Sure he got the shaft with some of the writing, but if that weren’t the case, I think he’d probably be one of the best reminds me of Arkham Batman

[@Terminal_Apotos]

Most Badass Mf

[@anubusx]

Batman hitting Superman with a sink was the best scene in the entire DCEU.

[@GuitarWithBrett]

I don’t know man .. I read Batman comics almost nightly and not sure film can pull it off. I feel like MCU style is what would be needed for say Morrison JLA or even his Batman. A really dark more horror style for Snyders joker and court of owls would be dope and new. I’m excited to see what Matt Reeves does for part 2 , I do think he’ll take it into more unrealistic directions but keep grounded vibe .. chuck dixons run was like that in a way.

[@jrob4795]

You just need the right director. Look at what the Russo’s were able to do with Captain America in The Winter Soldier, or James Wan with Aquaman. It can absolutely be done because we got a sample of it in BvS.

[@GuitarWithBrett]

@@jrob4795 captain America was dope , also the story by brubaker was major factor. I feel like directors need to compress time more like comics do. Also Batman comics that are good really have emotional relationships that tend to carry the real story .. I think at times movie versions tend to neglect the human side and also ramble along too much. I’ll be curious to see how James Gunn more “let good directors make best Movies” approach works out , personally could care less about a continuous universe and just want quality What’s your fav Batman or other run you’d like to see made to film ?

[@jrob4795]

@@GuitarWithBrett I like Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive but that would probably need to be a series. I’d like a live action Long Halloween that led to ac Dark Victory sequel. Those I think would be a good jumping off point for a new Batman film franchise.

[@GuitarWithBrett]

@@jrob4795 for sure I could see murderer / fugitive as a series , made me think of daredevil and punisher Netflix stuff. The art was pretty cool in some of that too when was black white and red Greg rucka series, I thought the limited color palettes were cool and the Gotham central would fit that vibe .. too bad that show was cancelled What style would you want to see for the Long Halloween ? The comic style is so cartoony and the cartoon adaptation , hard for me to image it with actors I guess I’d image it more like Tim Burton and even the Val Kilmer Batman stuff but more dark for latter ?

[@alessandroea2090]

...they should do a batman vs dracula movie for a change, getting sick and tired of the same old enemies. better yet a one time batman beyond with a new nemesis.

[@N95_45]

Couldn't agree more. This is why i am looking forward to the The Brave and The Bold. Not only is It set in a world that has Superman, Green Lantern, Hawkgirl Metamorpho and The Engineer, they introducing Damian Wayne. So they're definitely going to embrace the fantastical while also taking it seriously.

[@liebeasta3332]

Batman should be grounded to some extent. All heroes were made for certain things. You can do fantastical things in a grounded way When Batman deals with aliens it should be in a flash Gordon way or body snatcher way. Recent comics are the ones losing touch with where Batman is suppose to be.

[@STEVSGONE]

Continuation or reboot? I thought the brave and the bold happened a while ago.

[@boboboy8189]

Batman brave and bold Will be comedy. Its gunn writing in every movie he did

[@vee1766]

@@liebeasta3332 Finally someone with some goddamn sense and who understands what Batman is. Batman is a freaking detective, his turf is Gotham and he fights crime, PERIOD. That's what Batman. His best stories are the ones in which he is a detective. Unfortunately the new generations who grew up with Justice League's superbrain Batman who outsmarts aliens and gods don't get it...

[@thomasjohnson1885]

@@vee1766Batman has been taking on supernatural and alien since his creation. So he’s done more

[@tommiegreen]

“We need to stop making Batman realistic, so here is a segment that explains why realistic Batman is awesome.” Your argument is so weak it seems as if you like realistic Batman and only used the video as bait

[@SlimmArmstrong]

I absolutely love and appreciate how you wrapped it up at the end. No, Batman isn’t real. No, he isn’t US. But the fact that he continues to “get back up and keep fighting” is the so-called “relatable” part of him and his story. It’s not that he would act like us or we could ever be him. It’s one thing… Never. Give. Up. 💪🏾 Mad respect for the lesson learned. I hope other people walk away from this with the same feeling. 🙏🏾

[@murphyoalexander51]

Yeah we know superhero`s arn`t real, he isnt us, i beg to differ, is he a man, yes, a normal man, yes, he has got to where he is by working out and learning ffs, and he`s rich, “get back up and keep fighting” is the so-called “relatable” part of him and his story. Eh NO, he`s relatable more than any other superhero!!

[@nuttysquirrel8816]

Keep in mind that the Bruce Wayne/Batman character is not mentally and emotionally balanced. He's nutsso as a result of the experience he had as a child. As an adult, He's dealing with an internal conflict between his ethics and emotional instability and the desire for vengeance. The result of said conflict is a dangerous vigilante.

[@devilscrucified3980]

I’m Batman he is me I am vengeance

[@seriousnesstv7902]

Finally someone pointed it out the same old trope of making Batman realistic every time but with joker they made him relatable, realistic and comic book accurate

[@SpaceRider15]

7:06 bro butchered the fuck out of the word “monotonous”

[@greenwizard7592]

Great video, I couldn’t agree more with what you said. We don’t need a grounded world for Batman to be a realistic character. A nice mix would be ideal. Also interesting that you brought up horror movies. When I think of my favorite horror movies, they’re the movies with interesting characters. I don’t know where the idea of ‘let’s just make these characters unlikeable, cause we’re going to kill them anyways’ came from, but it’s really stupid.

[@SeasideDetective2]

The greatest emotional trauma I ever felt watching something with Batman in it was the two-part animated episode "Two-Face," with "Feat of Clay" not far behind. By contrast, when Rachel Dawes was killed in THE DARK KNIGHT, I was startled at first, but otherwise I felt nothing. Rachel was just an ordinary person, so what's the big deal? Yes, that sounds cruel, but in fiction characters have to be not just interesting but exceptional. It is when their humanity is exaggerated that we most feel for them.

[@wmlau69]

With a realistic version of Batman, we are not going to get villains like Poison Ivy, Clayface, Mr Freeze and Killer Croc. We lose the fantastical aspect of the Batman lore.

[@vee1766]

So what ? Then we don't get those villains. Who cares. Plenty of other threats for Batman to care of.

[@wmlau69]

@@vee1766 i disagree. The Batman is a fantasy character living in a world with other heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman. Therefore, it would make sense for him to have villains that are on the fantasy side.

[@vee1766]

@@wmlau69 That's not the point, of course villains "on the fantasy side" can exist, but it should be occasional and still grounded in the gritty and somewhat realistic world of Gotham. Like Nolan did with Scarecrow, Bane or Ra's al Ghul, strading the line between believable and supernatural.

[@wmlau69]

@@vee1766 i found Nolan’s movies boring. I watched it once and that was enough. I prefer the Tim Burton fantasy version of the characters.

[@vee1766]

@@wmlau69 Tim Burton's Batman movies were awful, cringe as hell. Tim Burton never really understood what Batman is about and never even made any effort to.

[@SamuraiEchidna]

Thank you. I've been saying this about Batman for years, and not being able to properly articulate my thoughts as smoothly as you have. Batman exists in a world of magic, metahumans, gods, and other super natural stuff. He doesn't need to be super realistic all the time; it just makes him harder to blend in with all this fantastical stuff. It's a losing battle. The more realistic you make him, the more critics will point out elements that aren't realistic enough; like his costume, gadgets, his villains with super powers, etc. Even Robin's outfit fails to truly conceal his identity in a realistic way (and I am convinced Robin does not fall into the same logic as why Superman's identity change works). But also... Thank you for mentioning things like Batman TAS. It's hard to believe that a show from the 90's still stands as one of THE best examples of how to do Batman right. You don't have to go full campy and silly like the Adam West Batman, but you don't have to go full Nolan/Reeves either. There is a balance between both extremes, and you illustrated that perfectly. I really hope that, whatever James Gunn has planned, will also allow for that balance to be struck.

[@Buzz32123]

This is why Ben Affleck is my favorite Batman, he's the only modern live action Batman to embrace the fantasy elements imo, everyone was hyping up Matt Reeves Batman with Pattinson but I was just dissapointed that we went back to the overly realistic side of shit again when we JUST got that with Nolan.

[@swordguy1243]

Batman can be both realistic and fantastical but Most importantly it's gotta be Dark and Gritty always

[@YovrBiggestHater]

I’d argue writers would have so much freedom and room for creativity if they properly implemented both sides. It would be even greater to see the creative ways this mortal man defeats fantastical elements thrown into his world. Batman being the grounded realism, pushing his limits, using his brain, cutting corners, using his technical prowess to hinder these larger than life villains. It could lead to an interesting narrative, his want to tackle Gothams system n clean up the streets but how can he do it, does losing your loved ones push you that far to throw your life away every night you put on the cowl? The psychological events, the trauma he’s received, how does he cope, is it the pain, does he want to die? I’d say the realm of possibilities are endless. It’s a world full of superheroes n supernatural anomaly’s, I’d argue that humans would’ve innately evolved beyond what we are currently, so the naturally physical peak could be higher n Bruce achieves that, man idk

[@ulfberht4431]

I’ve been saying this for years and I 100% agree. Design and setting doesn’t need to be the focus of realism. It is the characters and how they grow, their weaknesses, their motivations, what makes them snap, makes them overcome their obstacles (even if said obstacles are a giant clay monster, a sexy half naked chick with planets abilities and other weird villains) it’s all about how the character feels real to us. Sadly, we might not get a good fantastical live action Batman any time soon so long as the Nolan fanbase still lives and breaths.

[@julianmcmillan2867]

The Nolan films had as their strongest point, more simplified and dialed down villains, made them watchable. As a weak point those films had a boring Batman that was really just a ninja in tank armour. The only character in Batman media that can get a pass for zaniness, colour and flare is the Joker, because that is his narrative purpose. But, I'm sorry, a woman who looks like a stripper that jumped into gree dye? No. A roided up luchador with a unitard? No. A guy who wears a Scarecrow costume that looks like it take four hours to put on? No. Clayface? Go for it. Go for the classic Clayface even. I think what people actually want, when they talk about realism, is not necessarily the world of the media being presented being realistic, but come on, can we please have the dark and ever brooding Batman have foes that aren't so cartoonish and weird? Can we not have the Dark Knight facing off against a roided up luchador in a unitard? Can we not have the Dark Knight face off against a green stripper? Is that too much to ask?

[@ulfberht4431]

@@julianmcmillan2867 If Marvel can get away with “zany” and “cartoonish” villains and still be successful (we’re talking pre Wave 4), then why can’t Batman and any DC villains? Simplicity doesn’t always make a great villain, especially in a comic book universe like Batman. When you say “is it too much too ask not to have a clay monster or green stripper”, mate, it’s actually very easy since all we’ve been getting is dumbed down simplified villains. What’s too much to ask is the total opposite. I honestly think having a zany villain face off Batman would actually make the conflict more interesting. Batman would be the serogate audience while the zany villain would be an allegory of us being drawn into this dark and yet unworldly comic book world of DC. If more Batman movies would go more balls to the walls with their villains, I think people might start liking it more. But as you’ve proven, people like yourselves won’t allow us to have such an epic batman movie that doesn’t play safe, simplistic and realistic. You want the same movie over and over. That’s why I fell asleep during The Batman cause I felt like I was watching another Nolan flick. Same realism, same dumb down villain that is nothing like the comic books and is just way too much like a police drama. Also: “a woman who looks like a stripper”, slut shaming much?

[@smbenga2]

I think Batfleck could have been that mix of grounded in reality but still the fantasy aspects of Batman, but I’m definitely biased towards his portrayal 😂

[@aapsentertainment3159]

I think you’re absolutely right about that!!!

[@robertlauncher]

I liked it in Nolan’s first two films because they had the vision and dedication to keeping it fairly consistent and making it work. Afterwards, several storytellers thought they could achieve that vision and failed to realize how much time and effort it takes. You can’t just slap together edgelord grit and try to sound smart without the character development, world building, and overall refinement to the plot elements. Now the third movie absolutely tore that universe apart, but that’s another discussion. Realism also just isn’t the only route that can work with Batman, Burton proved that long ago with a beautifully stylized comic book movie.

[@xR0N1Nx]

I've been saying this for a long time. His best friends are aliens and gods. He's not a realistic person. He can jump 30ft high and kick a tree in half.

[@Havoc-g7v]

Facts!!! He does jump 30 feet in the air in the cartoons for sure

[@JHD6045]

I've been a fan of Batman for 38 years. This was something that I really enjoyed about Zack Snyder's take on the characters. His and Ben Affleck's take on Batman was a good cross between realistic and a comic like design. I liked the Matt Reeves film, but would have really enjoyed more DCEU films.

[@Zack-vi7is]

Nah. It's nice to have superhero movies that are grounded. The MCU provides enough over the top tech/magic action for the genre. What makes movies like the Nolan trilogy and The Batman (2022) great is that it has the action and intrigue of a superhero film without the over the top reliance on CGI and flashing lights. Batman is just a regular guy who is smart and is skilled in hand to hand combat. That's the character at his core and thats how the character should be presented. Plenty of other less grounded characters in DC/Marvel to make unrealistic superhero movies about. Let Batman be unique.

[@aapsentertainment3159]

I can see that point, I even agree with it completely, but I think the fact that Batman is surrounded by all these crazy villains and meta humans and being just man makes him even more special and unique. So embracing that more would be nice.

[@Zack-vi7is]

@@aapsentertainment3159 i don't think you have to make him less realistic or grounded to do that tho. The Watchmen movie managed to blend the unrealistic elements (Dr. Manhattan) with the more grounded and realistic characters like the Comedian, Silk Spectre, and Nite Owl. I think with some creativity filmmakers can definitely do something like that with Batman without going so over the top it eliminates what makes Batman unique.

[@mayotango1317]

​@@Zack-vi7isYou need to watch the Barman Animated Series.

[@Zack-vi7is]

@@mayotango1317 no I don't

[@FeiLong82]

Bravo @Zack-vi7is 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@anuj4266]

Truely sai , it would be amazing to see the more emotional touch in the Batman along with the larger than life characterization as done in animated series. If we talk about the animated Justice league series and Batman it made a complete emotional dynamics in which Batman is not always grummpy looking but also enjoys moment with people around him.

[@skyfox585]

The grounded-ness was the best part of The Batman...

[@somedorkydude6483]

Personally i think batman should be what ever the writers want him to be. There is a place for something like the batman. However, i think there is a place for the more fantastical side of batman. I respect grant morison but, i also think he has a wrong way of looking at batmans shift into grittiness. There are good and bad takes of batman but whats great about him is the fact theres room for everything. Dark ≠ realism and some of the best batman stories arent exclusive to how realistic infact look at the most known batman stories and realize what they are about. Re read the dark knight returns and you'll realize its not a gritty story its a story about a man becoming more than what he is. Even batman year one where we see batman at times struggle to take down regular thugs its all about him becoming more than just a man. The long holloween isnt even meant to be a gritty tale. Its a story about gothams evolution into the fantasical.

[@TheRegibump]

While this may not be what most people suggest for an example, I would state that The Batman is a good example for doing a Batman story, the TV series at least (seriously why did Ben/Matt name it after a pre-existing Batman material). Basically the show embraces the super natural elements of Batman's Mythos with a mix on his classic rouges gallery to make them unique to that universe, all whilst keeping Batman mature and taking his role as Batman seriously. The show got away with Cloning, Zombies, Mr Freeze's suit being a literal Glacier, even Dracula appears, and that’s all before the final season introduces the Justice League and some of their Rouges. To put it short, Batman can work within a light hearted and absurd universe, but so long as he’s still treated seriously and grounded to *that* universe then he works in it.

[@higgi9494]

Those last words really brought chills. Superheroes have always made me want to be a better person and sometimes those fantastical bits are what make it even more inspiring. This video is great! Amazing work!

[@vee1766]

If you think Batman is supposed to make you a better person you truly don't understand the character.

[@higgi9494]

If you can’t see good sides to Batman’s character whatsoever then you truly don’t understand the character.

[@vee1766]

@@higgi9494 Who said you can't see some good sides to Batman...? But Batman isn't supposed to be a feel good superhero or a role model in any way, shape or form.

[@ghostme1635]

I totally agree with you. I would love to see Matthew Hagens clayface. IN the Reeves version it would be so sick.. but I guess that's out of the cards

[@oldmanmichaelson718]

I saw the Batman and remember thinking that the next movie would just be Gordon and Batman questioning a peep for 2 hours until he breaks down.

[@somedorkydude6483]

3:31 Uhhhh you do realize that the batman has a quite different approach tk realism than nolans ultra high tech bat tank. And zachs litteral man vs alien. The reeves one is litterally a different take on the realistic archatype your criticizing by making a batman that is judged like a guy in a suit. The guy is in a improvised vehicle and he has a limited number of gadgets for a reason and its because he is meant to be a batman thats not ever going to fight clayface, ivy, or the court of owls something confirmed. Its a stylistic choice to be even more real than nolans block buster approach to everything. The onky acception was kind of the final battle in the reeves film but that was because there wasnt anything that wasnt involving secret societies. Customized tank cars that are straight from a james bond movie ect. The mat reeves take is so different because instead of adapting a larger than life figure in a world. Mat reeves actually runs with a what if batman was at his closest to being real. This is blatently obvious when you compare the aproach to gadgets. Now yes this is a younger batman but think about how his gadgets are limited and improvised and not james bond like. Batman begins litterally has him with high tech james bond type equipment and its meant to be year one. The mat reeves take is a djfferent take on the realistic batman.

[@HyraxusPrimus]

I think the biggest problem with any version of Batman is him legitimately being a highly valued member of the Justice League when fighting against a planetary or above threat, and then the following week getting felled by a standard Joker or Riddler plot in his own city. Bouncing between being a prep time master who could defeat the whole League on his own, and getting beaten to death by a random goon with a crowbar in an alley. I really think Batman works best as a street level, "grounded", character. His whole schtick is theatricality and intimidation to deter criminals, and once he starts tackling Parademons all that kind of goes out the window (and that's also generally where his "no kill" rule ends, so the DCEU Batman being the one to fight Superman and Darkseid is actually a very logical progression, past his history as a street level crimefighter). Arkham Knight tried to address this problem but ended up also succumbing to the problem; once things get dire enough to make Batman drive around Gotham in a tank, or put on a Justice Buster suit, you lose the essence of his character. In the game, this means he has to adopt a different identity because Batman's simply not as scary as he used to be. In the movies, this means he has to either stay contained and not crossover to preserve his mythos, or he has to become willing to cross the line (DCEU Batman, or even Nolan Batman when it comes to Ra's or Bane) in order to compete with higher threats, and once he crosses it he shouldn't be able to uncross it.

[@knaughta.masso-kist5944]

I agree. This is why IMO Nolan's and Reeves' Batmen are better than most of the comics. Batman just doesn't make sense as a character in the JL or battling Superman. Or fighting demons and magic.

[@vee1766]

EXACTLY. Glad there are still some people who gets it. Personally i read Batman comics like they are in their own little universe, i pretend that the Justice League comics aren't canon and that, sure, Batman, worked with the Justice League off-scene but we don't know to what extent. BATMAN IS A DETECTIVE, period. His best stories are when he fights crime (with the occasional freak) in Gotham, that's who he should always be. Not fighting aliens and outsmarting gods with his "computer brain". F that. Batman movies should always be Neo-Noir movies.

[@Linklex7]

That’s kinds what I liked about BvS. When it came time for the final fight with Doomsday, Batman stays the fuck out of it. He throws the occasional kryptonite grenade but that fight is mostly between Superman, Wonder Woman, and Doomsday.

[@paulkerr9128]

Agreed. Batman just doesn't work in the current DCU. Much better in his own universe like the Burton/Nolan and Reeves films.

[@HyraxusPrimus]

@@knaughta.masso-kist5944 I think there's room for the occultist and secret society stories that feature an ambiguously supernatural element. Sometimes even a real one, because even Zatanna is still a normal human who reads books. I'd be really interested if Battinson had to contend with the Court of Owls or Deacon Blackfire in his universe.

[@mohdsalmand1385]

You will miss this realistic Batman when they'll start making lore accurate Batman movies.

[@ATLAS-cy4xi]

Yeah it always happens. Then he’ll make a video “stop making batman comic unrealistic”

[@boboboy8189]

Lore accurate??? Tell that to Matt reeve Who make batman dumb although his nickname is world greatest detective.

[@ATLAS-cy4xi]

@@boboboy8189 This is year 2 batman. Year 2 Batman is barely figuring things out. The best thing about Batman is that he’s a deeply flawed character even when he becomes known as the world’s greatest detective

[@WERV2003]

That will not happen if Matt Revees' realistic Batman continues while the DCU Batman takes place, each group will have what they are looking for, apart from those who want a realistic Batman they already have a complete trilogy made by Nolan.

[@devos65]

I respect your opinion but something that I notice is that a lot times when you take that realistic aspect and try more to be like the comics for some heroes it comes off as goofy if not done right. I personally always liked the realistic approach but I do respect your opinion

[@SuperSunburn]

Yes!!! I was talking about this with my brother on how i thought recent batman movies was too realistic,i mean,he's a guy in a bat costume who fights clowns,mutant crocks and penguins in an universe with supermans and wonder womans.

[@xnet_cascade6257]

One thing I hate is that they go all lengths to not use cgi. If you’ve seen Batman cartoons or read comics, there are many scenarios where they would have to use cgi to accomplish

[@Someguy-oi9tf]

For me in my opinion, the reason why I like the Batman is because he is realistic. It shows how a person doesn't need crazy super powers to be a Hero. He is like the Iron Man of DC Universe, He only needs his intellect. Nothing else...

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

well since Batman was created first Tony Stark is actualy Marvels Batman just more high teck

[@arcadeassassin7176]

Finally someone gets it. Batman is inherently a little bit silly and that's ok. A batman story can be as serous or as campy as you want while still being true to the character. I think people get so caught up on how serious batman can be that they also forget that he lives in a fantastical universe full of campy supervillains and improbable gadgets. It's a comic about a bat themed detective who's superpower is having abbs but everyone is over here trying to make him realistic.

[@ryananderson5202]

Come on, We have villains in hollywood writing these scripts. Let's take our hero and beat the crap out of them for 2 hours and twenty minutes..... I guess we can have him win at the end. But in twenty years we are going to suggest he was gay.

[@jackkawf4449]

Honestly I think people just prefer a more serious Batman, I can't watch the old Adam West without cringe

[@arcadeassassin7176]

​@@jackkawf4449 It doesn't always have to be one extreme or the other. Imagine an iteration of Batman that combines the campy humor of the Adam West series with the serious character drama of The Batman. Spoilers you don't have to imagine that because that already exists and it's called Batman The Animated Series.

[@mr.pinstripe7171]

Maybe I’m missing the point here but I feel like you could have a “realistic”/“grounded“ Batman movie with the wider, DC universe, as well as its more fantastical elements. Like I think you could genuinely do a realistic killer croc, and it not feel out of place. It really depends on how you present the story and how you write your world.

[@NipItInTheBud100]

Unless you make it all CGI a non realistic batman would look cheesy. I mean all you would have is a humanistic Batman in a fantastical setting which doesn’t blend well.

[@WERV2003]

Batfleck wasn't all CGI yet he was a non realistic Batman.

[@NipItInTheBud100]

@@WERV2003 And I thought his fighting style was the truest of them all!!

[@barfo281]

So you'd prefer a movie with Minstrel? Condiment King? Kite Man? Penny Plunderer? Killer Moth?

[@the_humanspider]

Thank you! Been waiting for someone to say this since The Dark Knight. Not that TDK wasn't a great movie, but it leaned way too far into the realistic for my tastes. Your point of Batman being a fantastic element is something I've been trying to drive across for years. You can't have a man that dresses like a bat in the real world, but suddenly take away all his fantastical villains and stories as well.