Stop Slotting The Stupid Way! Fusion 360 Adaptive! Widget101

How hard can we push a 3/16 Lakeshore Carbide end mill in Aluminum on the Tormach 440 CNC Mill? Tim Paul from Autodesk gave us some great tips on a higher chipload per tooth - we were blown away!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Links for this video
Filmed with:
amzn.to/29eDuze
amzn.to/29eDNdD
amzn.to/29eDxLF
End Mill Used: bit.ly/29jxqDs
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reach us / CNC Info:
Speeds & Feeds: provencut.com
Download Fusion 360: www.dpbolvw.net/click-9255839...
Online Fusion 360 Training: bit.ly/LearnFusion360
Hands-On CNC Classes: www.nyccnc.com/events
SMW Products: saundersmachineworks.com/
CNC Resources: www.nyccnc.com
Music copyrighted by John Saunders 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH

[@Abom79]

Nice work John!

[@prboulay]

John, It is great to hear that you are getting back to project videos. Thanks.

[@normnelson]

Hi John, I tried this out today on cold rolled steel on the Fadal 4525 I have access to. I'm new to Fusion and metal machining in general, but in the linking tab, I clicked "lift" and set it to 0.003", then came back and cleaned it up on the finish operation, the floor looked pretty good... thanks for all the videos!!

[@macsurfer1]

John, love all your videos! Love them even more now you mention feeds, speeds, WOC and DOC in millimetres. I'm from across the pond so imperial was foreign to me. Keep the videos coming! G

[@lukewalter3738]

Awesome John! Look forward to whatever is next!

[@ROBRENZ]

Excellent video John!

[@mattcurry29]

Nice video John, The smaller tooling is great when you can spin them fast enough and you have a good adaptive CAM.

[@ejejo]

Hi John! thanks for the video. Can I use the same configuration to work on steel ? Best!

[@DCT_Aaron_Engineering]

Great video and advice as always. Thanks John ;-)

[@alessandrovalentini8430]

Hey John, thanks for your video! I'm starting machining some wood and i want my 3d adaptive clearing to go straight instead of this elliptical way. Still i prefer adaptive clearing instead of pocket because i want "rough stepdown" and "fine stepdown" which pocket clearing does not allow me to do. Shortly, i was wandering if there is any way to make Adaptive clearing generating toolpath as pocket clearing. Thanks to anyone want to help!

[@ruben-yrcnc2029]

Nice vid John! Always afraid to go higher, end mills are not cheap, but it is actually better for them...lol

[@TomsToolRoom]

Very, Very Impressive John!

[@SethK1]

I would say if your machine time is matching your estimate then you are reaching your acceleration. Your very first video is still extremely helpful because when you take your NIMS Cert Tests you are given a piece of bar stock and a blueprint of a part which requires 15 operations and at least 8 tool changes, you then have to hand write all tool paths, tool changes canned cycles. They do this mostly because they want you to be a skilled technician at the machine controls. They don't teach you in school very well what your tool is capable of other than your basic feed and speed calculations.

[@andypughtube]

To answer a question from the video, if PathPilot is enough like LinuxCNC then you should be able to use Halscope (the HAL layer oscilloscope) to plot the velocity and acceleration.

[@brennerfab770]

If you are cutting mild steel how would you alter your tooling and feeds and speeds?

[@BikiniDuckCreations]

What about the load meter? What's it doing during the cut? If its anything like my 770, it can make the HSM cuts fine as long as the needle doesn't bounce into the yellow for more than a second or two. The speed and force of the aggressive cut slows down the spindle, and if it cant speed back up during its air-cut travel, then it slows down even more on the next cut, repeat until next thing you know the spindle stalls; or the motor stabilizes its power output, but at a lower rpm, leading to other tool issues.

[@user-pr2fy2oi5k]

hello,what you will do when you need make a slot about 3-4mm? adaptive strategy with short endmills is cool, but i, personally often working with small locked slots like a rings. Now i work with tool diameter almost similiar to slot width, go down with ramp moving and 0.1-0.2 mm doc,carbide 1 or 2 flutes endmills. What can you advice for milling theese tiny slots? Or even thinner, like 1,2mm with about 3-4 mm depth?

[@pauljones3866]

A lot of this type of work seems counter-intuitive until you think about what is really going on. Thanks for presenting this topic. I am sure more to come and gain from the technique.

[@philmckay9973]

is it moving in a circle or an oval? would an oval move faster than a circle pattern? the tool would not need to back off as much?

[@ipadize]

i saw 2 cameras and thought man two cameras and one is even in the machine but then i realized, if i see 2 cameras, there must be a third camera and i was like :O

[@LoLo-wz3bq]

the first time I saw this toolpath was in a sandvich sponsored class and they were cutting harden steel with full d.o.c. and it blew my mind.

[@andrewvanhalst9486]

Hi John, I’m grooving a 1” deep x .530” slot in cold rolled steel. I’m using a 0.375” carbide 4 flute cutter with .001” per tooth at 1000 RPM. I have been using a profile approach at 0.100” per pass. I see your recommendation to use an Adaptive Clearing for this operation. What are your recommendations for me on cold rolled steel for Depth of cut & RPMs? BTW: Great job on all the info! Really appreciate everything!

[@gentharris]

Love to see that done in 316 stainless.. We recently had to do 1/2" deep 3/16 " slots in that crap and had pure hell trying to get it done in a manual machine??

[@EricsiPhone]

Back in my Taig days, I ran a 3/16" Lakeshore 2F at .002" chipload frequently. I used the same 3/16" endmill for any roughing, and the little Taig handled 32IPM for hours straight with it. I always used to keep bumping the speed up until something broke, and the weak link on the Taig was always the spindle getting knocked out of tram under high load, or the motor overheating after hours of high load, but never the little 3/16" tool, so I don't see why .003" per tooth and up wouldn't work out on a machine with more than 1/4 HP.

[@mariusb6035]

Which alloy did you use for this test?

[@76verdee]

r u using the mister or just straight air

[@TheKyroMan]

is there a major difference between the 770 and the 440?

[@highvoltagefeathers]

Those passes don't sound like a regular cadence, is that pathpilot and the machine having trouble munching on code fast enough to keep up with the intended HSM toolpath? Or is there another reason it sounds "chunky"

[@occamssawzall3486]

You can adaptive rough with any diameter tool that's the beauty of it. It used to be only certain size tools could "rough". But I've used roughing adaptive paths with tools as small as .040 in stainless. Maybe I'll do this slot test on the DMU ;)

[@_P0tat07_]

God, I feel like I break endmills just by looking at them. John’s over here pushing them further.

[@DF-zb3yk]

love the 440 sized hammer

[@adamcain4603]

Did I see a Canon lens in the machine I am big into photography, another great video.

[@TheMetalButcher]

I'm impressed. That slot would have taken me a 10 minutes on a Bridgeport. All of our old HSS endmills are long 2" or so Usually 4 diameters. I hate that. The few bets of carbide we have are 1.5-2 diameters which I like.

[@Demicron]

I know ow nothing of cnc or machining but you leave me wanting one.

[@occamssawzall3486]

They're pretty fun :). Take a community college course in machining for like a certificate program. Only 6 months and pretty cheap.

[@andythurlow9502]

Ok Im trying to do a simple slot and every time I try to run the tool path it tells me there is an empty tool path. Im really new something simple Im sure

[@VLAHECO]

cool

[@meichler23]

The herb grinder is so funny hahaha I wouldn't have known either.

[@newsogn5148]

this is sooooo interesting!!! when I was in school I took a class on cnc machining and to start they had us write a ton of code by hand, and they said that to make a slot the best way is to take the tool that is the exact size of the slot and make several passes down. but you are saying that you shouldn't go over 30% of the width of the tool? I would have enjoyed a deeper explanation but i dont represent your viewing base haha

[@esoomreltna]

Sir, Is leaving the vice handle in place OK? I'd be afarid that under certain circumstances the handle would get wedged. Great video and very interesting results. Eric

[@cncmoldsnstuff4423]

Yes, you should remove it. Especially now that you have a real VMC. I could have said it doesn't matters. Tormachs only accelerate at 15iss, but that bad habit could cost you on your big machine. P.S. I find myself leaving vice handles on sometimes when doing repetitive quick jobs like squaring up a bunch of stock blanks. I better stop it too. Someday I might get a real VMC. LOL. P.P.S. Even at 30iss (My Hurco KMB1 is set at 30) I don't have things go flying from rapid reversal, but the machine does shake a bit when doing a lot of them.

[@1bulldog998]

how do you get the bit to go in and out of slot as it cuts ..

[@grumpysteelman]

That be the adaptive toolpath matey. Fusion 360 has it built in.

[@travisshrewsbury7169]

class dismissed, nice John

[@Allthumbzzz]

VIce handle left in vice is a rookie mistake. It's like leaving a chuck key in chuck and walking away. Great tips on slotting thought. Would of never thought of doing it that way.

[@Allthumbzzz]

Agreed! Machinist for 27 hrs. And really enjoy your vids and enthusiasm you have for machining. Keep up the great vids.

[@Allthumbzzz]

27hrs. Ha. Years!!!!

[@fpvFlyingMonkey]

Pretty cool stuff! I wish Fusion would add trochoidal (or adaptive) toolpaths for profiles. 90% of what I do is sheet material and small parts (as many as I can fit on a sheet) so I'm slotting ALL the time and it sucks. The only thing keeping me from fully switching over to Fusion 360 is that it can't do trochoidal on the outside route of a part :(

[@occamssawzall3486]

I think you can if you select and outside stock boundary and the outside profile of the part. Not sure, haven't played with it enough.

[@gptech2444]

HSMadvisor gives you this info. It's the best I've tried when it comes to calculating speeds and feeds.

[@supernova1070]

how much do you take off on your clean up pass?

[@supernova1070]

+NYC CNC thanks. love your videos

[@cfgosnell]

Just a thought: Wouldn't the 'optimal' radial stepover be the one that keeps the tool loaded by never letting the cutting edges 'unload'? For example a 4 flute cutter should be set for about 90 deg engagement which would be a radial depth equal to the radius. 3 flute would be 120 degrees engagement or about 1.5x cutter radius. Maybe this is a max value. I say this because just as one tooth is unloading and letting the cutter rebound, the next tooth would engage and keep the cutter loaded both in bending and in torsion? I realize carbide is very stiff and these distortions would be very small, but carbide also doesn't like being bent too much being a classic brittle material. I also see cutters for strong materials (Ti, hard tool steel, etc.) that have 5,7 or more cutting edges. A tool with 7 edges only would have a radial stepover that engages at least 360/7 = 51 degrees. or 37% of the cutter radius. I understand that the cutter is only so strong and the radial stepovers suggested above can break the tool, but it is interesting to think about.

[@felixcosty]

Thanks for the video. Just a suggestion to save you money and problems in the future. Metal chips in the drain can lead to problems, I worked at two places that had to spend a lot of money to have a major clean out done to the drains. These where mostly steal shops, I do not know how bad aluminium can be. Have a day

[@marceltimmers1290]

Hi mate. Never forget the efficient Vs effectiveness debate, one might be very efficient at making rubbish, but making widgets effectively, so people want them is what counts. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for Tormach to make a CNC guided shaper. Now that would create precision.

[@similac95]

didn't you already do a video labeled the same thing about a year ago?

[@lineage13]

I tried out the lower RPMS & higher widths of cuts... my tool & work piece tends to over heat... Then I found this online from CNC cook book www.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCMillFeedsSpeedsHighSpeedMachining.htm turns out when I was milling at crazy high rpms & 10% widths of cuts it was considered HSM & it actually reduced heat. I found that the higher the spindle speed & higher the feed rate... The lower the heat output. My endmill was stone cold at the end of every operation. Only down side is tiny chips... like needles.

[@codyrasberry4132]

You're getting closer to that 1400 inches a minute all the time John. 👌🏻

[@Dakakeisalie]

I have a pretty large CNC (Fadal but not sure the nber) which I have acquired abd I know how to use, I am proficient in solidworks and an amateur NC machinist. My real deficiency is using CAM. I know literally nothing. The guy who knew all that stuff left before I really learned anything. Any advice?

[@ScottMoyse]

if you are in a commercial environment, don't muck about pay for some training and get up to speed quickly. reach out to Kevin at mechanicaladvantage.com

[@Dakakeisalie]

+Scott Moyse So we owned the place next door when the guy went out of business. We were running out of space ourselves so we bought them out and opened up the wall and now have 2x the room for our business. The CNC came with the property and while it is not our line of work, it could definitely expand our abilities with custom jigs and dies and tools for specialized work. Unfortunately we are small and can't afford anyone new so I have been scouring lots of sources searching for all the info I can. I have learned a lot from this channel.

[@ScottMoyse]

+mlnlme1 have a chat to Kevin and see what he can do for you. no harm in finding out.

[@bcbloc02]

How would this compare time wise to just taking a stubby 3/8 and running it straight thru with a .003/ tooth load.

[@TheMetalButcher]

I don't think it would make it. Pretty sure you would break it or chatter the mill all to hell.

[@AshersVids]

Maybe on a .7 hp hobby mill like this one. This might take 15 seconds on my 15 hp Cat 40 Fadal.

[@Hirudin]

Sorry, not an answer from experience, but here's some math... A 4" slot at... 4 IPM would take a minute. It looks like that slot might be around 5/16" deep (the flute length of that tool) so if you could take five 1/16" deep passes at 20 IPM it would also take about a minute (1/5 the DOC at 5 times the speed). I rarely slot, and I basically let a calculator do the thinkin' for me, so I don't know typical feeds and speeds offhand, but 20 IPM for a 63-thou depth cut seems pretty light and I would think that would be well within the 440's capabilities. I bet you could do the slot in three passes, no problem, so you could call that ~36 seconds (12 seconds per pass multiplied by 3 passes). Of course, there are some rapid/positioning moves in there too that will add a couple seconds too.

[@bcbloc02]

So it is a power and ridgidity issue why not to just plow straight thru, got ya. I know I have seen many endmill advertising videos where they would just plow thru a slot like this only in a block of steel, so I figured in aluminum it would be much easier. I just saw a Niagra video where they were running a 1/4 endmill 1/4 deep at 5000rpm and 20ipm in 4140 steel just in a straight path. I was just curious how a similar run would do here. Seems that with the slotting method used here 50% of the time is out of the cut.

[@ArcAiN6]

The difference between plowing right through steel and aluminum is aluminum tends to gum up the flutes. It's basically caused by two properties of aluminum, it's malleability, and relatively low melting point. the aluminum chips tend to friction weld to the tool, as well as compact within the flutes. Steel doesn't really have this issue, as it has a much higher working temperature range, as well as it's harder, and less malleable than aluminum. The main take away here, to me anyway, is there comes a point where cooling,and chip evacuation can't keep pace with chip load, and feeds. Not to mention, the lifespan of the tool. Sure, you could bull right through in a single pass, but at what cost? early wear and tear on the tool, and the risk of damaging the work. It doesn't really add up to a responsible machining venture.

[@TheWidgetWorks]

you need to increase the size of the radius so that your not reversing direction as quick. Try increasing min cutter rad and the lead in/out rads, this should smooth out the motion. I suspect that you can get up to 90 ipm in that slot if you can get the adaptive to make it more circular.

[@ScottMoyse]

good point. it would be very interesting to see that.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Which is where true trochodial tool paths come it handy. I did notice Fusion likes to default to some really small min arcs with adaptive. I bet a full trochodial path would have done that slot 20% faster

[@ScottMoyse]

+Occams Sawzall what do you consider a full trochoidal to be then? what defines one in your opinion?

[@occamssawzall3486]

+Scott Moyse full trochodial is full circular loops around with a step over each revolution. Like taking a pencil and make little circles with it while moving In a direction. That will maintain a constant feed rate up to the max accel/decel rates for the machine. So a constant feed rate number will show up on the controller. Re-watch this video and notice when he shows the controllers readout of the feed rate that in jumps from between 29 and 75. The 29 is when it first enters that tight radius of the path. 75 is about the mid point of the arc drops back down to 29 on the exit and runs about 50 on its backfeed to start the next cut. In tight spaces like that trochodial paths are faster and less harsh on the machine axis. In large areas where the entry arcs can be large and feed rate is maintained better the adaptive is better since it's a shorter tool path and will save time.

[@Steve_Just_Steve]

+Occams Sawzall I totally agree. May I ask what software in your opinion creates said types of toolpaths? I'm using FeatureCAM and a lil SolidCam, and I'm curious which programs write the style paths you discribe. Thanks

[@occamssawzall3486]

PS... Take your vise handles out of the machine when they are running!

[@occamssawzall3486]

+Vladgorod7 back and forth Y movements will make the handle slap against table and way covers. Always always always remove the vise handles from a machine. There's never an "OK" time to leave it on when the machine is running. I've seems em take doors right off, break chip conveyers, launch pallets off the base on pallet changes, and numerous other things. 2 secs to put a handle on or off is much less costly than ripping a door clean off a machine when it homes Y,X at rapid speed.

[@brandonl.5998]

Yep! I've seen it happen as well, had the joy of removing a vice to get the handle off after someone jammed it behind the door. Near impossible to get to.

[@boblalonde8661]

Its a Tormach. Top rapid isn't all that high, and they only accelerate at 15iss. Still they did acquire a real VMC recently, and that practice could be dangerous if they forget its a different class of machine.

[@janlundquist3132]

great to have a machine police here, what shall we do without you folks.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Hopefully not cause expensive damage to your machines or worse, damage to yourself.... Unless you think you're faster and stronger than the machine.... hint. You're not...

[@michaelb4060]

Great demonstration on pushing the small diam end mill, but not the best way to cut this slot. You may be focusing on this high efficiency toolpath due to the machine HP limitation, but with a high performance carbide you can cut the same slot so much faster. It's not really the stupid way to slot if it gives you the result efficiently. For example, with a .375", 3 flute, 0.5" LOC, .75" stickout, 10k rpm, 212 ipm, .375 DOC, the rough cut on a 6" piece (estimated based on your vise) will take less than 2 seconds. You can run similar clean up cuts for the sides at 80 ipm or 4.5 sec ea. Your total slot cut time will be 11 seconds. These numbers are based on the Helical end mills I use with the Helical/Volumill Milling Advisor and the surface finishes I like. You can run the clean up cuts faster, but you get a rougher surface. Many other high performance cutters do the same feeds/speeds so it is not a brand thing. I have used Widia and OSG pushing the same rates and they also perform really well. I am also looking into Imco cutters after seeing how fast Titan American Built pushes his Haas machines with Autodesk HSM and Imco cutters. He gets up to 800 ipm with some parts, which seems insanely fast. The high efficiency milling toolpaths like the Autodesk HSM or Volumill add in for other CAM packages really increases your material removal rate by maintaining the chip load with the swooping paths. They avoid the traditional constant speed roughing toolpaths with corner pauses for directional changes where there is too much material engagement around the end mill.

[@michaelb4060]

I understand this. My point is you are saying traditional slotting is the stupid way to slot, which is misleading. Have you looked at what your machine can do with traditional slotting with a .375 EM for comparison? You may find traditional slotting is still faster in your machines for some applications including the example you show in this video. Slotting this way has so many repetitive moves and increased tool path length that it may be slower and more expensive for you and your customer. The high efficiency tool paths are really great for pocket roughing improving your cutting time by upwards of 70% depending on the part. If you said stop pocketing the stupid way I would agree your title is accurate.

[@joegirmonde606]

Michael

[@chiefmachining7972]

The problem with your machine is you don't have enough hp to push a .375 endmill especially starting outside the workpiece.

[@mattruth7109]

5:06 i think stubby tools look cool tbh

[@JimmysTractor]

I found these things called "incerts" on fleabay- item# 152145180035. I don't know if they were a good deal or not. Anyone ever used "incerts"?

[@thirteentwentyfeet]

How deep and long is this slot? I heard you say it was .4 wide.

[@occamssawzall3486]

.400 wide .300 deep and I'm guessing about 4" long. I think it's a 4" wide vise in the 440.

[@chiefmachining7972]

If look at the pathpilot 4.375 mostly clearance for 3/16 endmill so yes 4"

[@thirteentwentyfeet]

I knew I could do this faster the stupid way, so I had to try it. Less than 10 seconds with a finish pass.

[@occamssawzall3486]

+Mike Healy 3/8" full depth 2 passes in.a 440 tormach?

[@thirteentwentyfeet]

3/8 full depth with 2 passes, but not a 440 tormach. How fast can you go at full depth in the tormach?

[@martinszinbergs2073]

Hmmm... are you washing metal chips into your drains? That could cause some serious problems later. Ummm.... errrr.... I hope you have some sort of mechanism to trap the chips before sending the water into the drain pipes.

[@dtroy15]

Meh. A little Muriatic acid solves that pretty quick.

[@Keith_Ward]

Why wait for a problem when you can avoid it?

[@fredlllll]

wouldnt it be faster to just go straight through the material 3 times instead of that circular motion?

[@occamssawzall3486]

Machine wouldn't have the power to make that cut while maintaining a proper SFM for the material. Would have to slow the feed and rpm way down

[@zachary3777]

No, not at all. That would be taking a 100% width of cut and is much slower.

[@JimmysTractor]

+Occams Sawzall I could be wrong but I think the SFM is actually higher with the little circles. I think the issue is the 1100 can't take the big enough bite(100% width) at a high enough feed and speed to make it worth cutting full width and I don't think the bit would take the side load at full depth with the lower speeds. like John said, he gets to use more of the tool (not just the bottom 20%) an gets to use it more efficiently with the "addaptive" tool path. I would just refer to it as the smart way to cut a notch.

[@occamssawzall3486]

+Jim Wilson that's kinda my point. With this particular machine it couldn't use a 3/8" and go full depth and width to gain MRR. Machine just couldn't handle it. If he wanted to use a 3/8" and keep the same MRR he has with the 3/16. He'd have to slow the speed and feed way down in order to take a cut the machine can handle, and that the tool won't rub in (.002-.003 IPT) So the 3/16" here with adaptive is the better way for THIS machine. If it had 2-3 more spindle HP. Than it could take a 3/8" and go full width and depth with it. Limiting factor here is the spindle. The tools can take way more than the machine can give em. So he has to adapt the cuts and toolpaths around the machine parameters. With bigger machines you end up doing the opposite, you have to adapt the machine parameters around your tools, because the machines can put out more power than the tools can handle.

[@JimmysTractor]

+Occams Sawzall I think I misread your comment, because you said it well.

[@mikejensen-fogt4662]

"herb grinder" lol

[@gredangeo]

Man, that slotting toolpath is 73KB by itself. Unfortunately at work, I used some cheap-ass ~2005 Fanuc controller machine. I only have 256KB to work with. Bunch of bullshit isn't it? (Fanuc sucks for memory. ಠ_ಠ) 73KB is bigger than many of our whole programs. It's because of that, why we slot in straight lines. That being said, a .375 Inch Necked Rougher for that .400 Inch width slot would do the trick in two depth passes. Probably even just one. However it is a Necked tool, which are expensive, and not your average endmill.

[@crevicedog1682]

Wish I had a Tormach, but I'm disabled, and on SSD so don't have the bucks. Got a SIEG X2 Mini Mill to use manually for an invention. Then both my wrists went from hand cranking and ended up with carpal tunnel in both. Have to move to CNC now. Need to make the parts, and get it all installed. Used Fignoggle DRO Plans, and now Using their CNC upgrade plans that works with their DRO plan. My max RPM is 2,500 but thanks for the file to work with It's a slow machine, but with this tip, it'll make it a bit faster. I do have Fusion 360 installed, just haven't learned it yet either. Have an old Acer laptop to run MACH3. It'll be some time before i get that far. Just one day at a time. -CD SeeTheSound.net

[@JarppaGuru]

everytime you not hear cutting it cut air. thats money. 3:24 thats the way 1 in 1 out. then start widen it. was slotting waste of money. my bos would say if it can slot 1d-1.5d

[@forrestaddy9644]

One of my mentors had a recipe for these situations: "Crank it up til you bust something, then back off a notch." My suggestion is try 0.005" per tooth if your machine will feed that fast. Have you compared that same stock removal problem with a 4 step straight groove running a stubby 3/8" end mill at 0.005" feed per tooth. Let's see: 5" part, 3 tooth cutter @ 10,000 RPM = 4 cuts @ 5" / 50 IPM = 20/50 = 24 second plus 15% for positioning BS = 30 seconds? I wouldn't hesitate in steel with jet coolant but aluminum can ball up in the flutes unless air flushed and misted w/coolant. Comment, Mr Spock? Analysis?

[@LogicIndustries]

Gotta say, I'm with Forest on this one. These whiz bang toolpaths spend a LOT of spindle on time not making chips. That just seems super inefficient to me, even if it is a little easier on the tool. For a machine that has no horsepower or thrust on the motion drives, OK sure, you can move more metal without blowing up your machine, but if you have an actual industrial machine tool with some HP and thrust, you're wasting time doing things this way in aluminum. Sure, for titanium or the heat resistant super alloys where you can't use run the tools that hard or deep, I can see where these toolpaths would help keep the chipload and productivity up, but for a slot like this in aluminum, you should be plowing that out in just a few passes. I routinely slot 1/2" deep with a 1/2" 3flt tool at 5k RPM and 60 IPM in 6061 T6 alum bar. Full WOC, flood coolant with an air blast to clear the chips. That's only 0.004 IPT, some tool grinders say they can take that cut at 0.006 IPT (my machine is so old that 90 IPM is getting up around where it starts to have following errors and overshoot, but the tools would probably cut it just fine). A 3/8" 3 flt tool ought to be able to make a 3/8" deep slot at 30 IPM in one pass, full WOC. Forest already did the math, it's pretty hard to beat ~30 sec for a path that took you ~1min45sec. Yes you used a smaller tool, but so what? We're talking about the difference between a $20 tool and a $30 tool. I figure that my machine time is worth ~$1/min, so it doesn't take much wasted time to make up for that extra $10 spent on a bigger tool, plus the machine is free to do other things during the time you save. In aerospace materials and in certain other circumstances, this adaptive stuff is a godsend, but for cake work like slotting or profiling around parts in aluminum, it wastes a lot of time. I have tried it head to head with my old way of doing things in alum, and the old way is much more productive for most things. Thin wall stuff and floppy setups are an exception to this rule, because the adaptive greatly reduces the cutting loads on the part. In a recent part I was programming, I did it both way to see which would be faster. Adaptive machining took almost 7mins per part, while the old way was just over 2mins per part. Multiply that by a couple hundred parts, and you're literally wasting DAYS cutting air. Even if I smoke the $40 tool twice as fast, I'm still WAY ahead doing that instead of cutting air. The technology is neat, and the capability is useful to have, but it is not the end all be all of toolpaths. You have to consider the whole picture and figure out what is most efficient, even if that means it eats a few more tools over the course of a job.

[@forrestaddy9644]

+LogicIndustries I haven't Logic's experience with CNC but I can certainly concur with his points about the effective uses of adaptive control for thin parts, fragile cutters, deflection and distortion control, chip control in deep recesses, etc. I now understand John's use of adaptive control for slotting that stout, rigidly gripped hunk of aluminum was only a demonstration. That same technique used to profile delicate parts or pocketing an intricate cavity is adaptive control's true vocation. It was unfair of me to criticise John's adaptive control demonstration. I failed to see the implications. If I could remove my previous comment, I would. Instead I have to apologise, dammit.

[@lwilton]

Thanks for this detailed post. As I was watching John cutting that, I just kept wondering why Fusion comes up with these crazy tool paths that spend about 40% of the time cutting air. Why not just run down one side of the groove and back the other side and be done with it? Maybe 2 seconds total cutting air. Of course you have a full width cut the first time so might have to be careful with chip evacuation, but if you can master that, it sure seems like it would have the job done faster.

[@LogicIndustries]

It's horses for courses, sir. No need to apologize, in my estimation at least. Adaptive surely has its uses, and for some things I expect that it is wildly more productive than any other strategy (or in some situations, it might be the only strategy that will yield usable results), but it's not ALWAYS the best strategy, full stop. That's what I was trying to get across. I see guys using Fusion and they use that 2D adaptive on stuff that there's no reason to use it on, and the end result is that their toolpath takes a lot longer to run, for no good reason. Sure, for ones and twos, it makes very little difference, but if you're making a lot of something over a long period of time, a 30%-40% increase in cycle time cost a lot of money. That's all I was trying to get across. Use adaptive when it's going to do you some good, and use some other strategy when it won't. Horses for courses. You don't send an Indy Car to drag race a Top Fuel Dragster, and you don't send a Top Fuel Funny Car to road race an F1 car. They're all damned fast, and in their element, unbeatable, but any one is not the best solution to EVERY problem.

[@Hirudin]

LogicIndustries, it seems like you're saying the adaptive strategy is a poor choice because it doesn't work for YOU. It's funny that you say "horses for courses" while simultaneously seeming to ignore that other courses exist. It sounds like YOUR machine is rigid and you can throw whatever slotting operation you want at it. Great... for you. Also, it seems that YOUR machine is slow. If you start getting errors when you try to do a positional move at greater than 90 IPM, OF COURSE the time spent cutting air is going to make a big impact FOR YOU. Modern machines can reposition quickly and the time spent cutting air is all but eliminated. Plus, I would say this channel is more about the "ones and twos", not full production runs. Sorry, but many people simply aren't interested in breaking tools, no matter how cheap they may be, in pursuit of the most TIME-efficient toolpath.

[@MrDaniell1234]

john Saunders / mini titian

[@galle66]

Was waiting for the BOOM!

[@MrDaniell1234]

yer A john get's like that, but that is the same stuff titian does but on big machines, it's good that john gives use the feed and speeds

[@1hdsquad]

Too bad the tormach is so slow and 'flexy', as soon as you lean on it the finish decreases (like the floor of the last part). Kinda disappointing. Id love to see something like kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmGYoYiEg7iWgZo (I know, I know, this is a little more expensive)

[@JohnScherer]

Autodesk did a video a while back on their adaptive milling and why they use it as opposed to trochoidal milling. Its a great video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX-Yh5SKmM2br9U

[@chrisfalconer1276]

takes far to long. then the finish pass insult to injury .

[@mrlithium69]

33% quicker

[@marvbush5592]

Not really sure why you use a circle program, lot if movement on the machine. Also it looks deceptive.. you cutting Aluminum...I don’t agree with all the small tooling stuff but I am a Tool and Diemaker, and yes a Machinist as well. I cut key slots on size, 1 cut has worked for years, less movement and speed relevant to steel composition.

[@MacMiskenn]

While I like high speed machining like this. On the Haas at work I could've done this in half the time with "conventional" milling, Especially in aluminium, in steel I could probably match it. Downside would be that the wear is only on the end of the endmill. I use high speed machining like that if I have deep pockets and a hell of a lot of material to remove, otherwise there's no gain in it(At least not for me) - aluminium is like butter with the 10mm endmills we use, I run full revolutions (8100rpm, not the speediest, I know.) and at least 0,05mm per tooth. But then again, we have flood cooling and a relatively stiff machine.

[@RoughAndWretchedRAW]

And once again, As I did with your other video, I ask, Did you consider the hugely increased wear and tear on the machine as opposed to the tool from the gargantuan increase in X, Y movements as opposed to straight slotting? Doing it the way you are doing it may be faster but is there actual "ECONOMY" realized. A double AA fueler is a fast car but with a total engine rebuild after a few runs it's clearly not the economical choice as a daily driver. Is this the same with your method of slotting before you call the other way stupid? Stupid is cutting the machine life in half while only increasing production by a third. Tooling only becomes more expensive then the machine over time due to the tremendous economy of the machine itself. If you have to replace the machine more often then the economy goes down the tube. You have to add the enormous cost of replacing a machine that did exactly what it was designed to do but wore out prematurely because you forced it to blow it's entire load in half the time. How many X and Y direction changes with your method as compared to straight slotting the old way. Every single time you are hammering backlash by whatever means being used to transit. This is IMPORTANT! If you are calling methods but yours stupid and influence others to use your method they could all be wearing out their machines prematurely also. You'll go down as a zero instead of a hero. If you have not long term tested your method against machine wear and tear then you should not me calling other tried and tested methods stupid. Remember! It was the turtle that won the race and I'm betting they called him stupid for running against the hare also. How much difference in wear and tear? Buy a new car and the drive train can carry you around for years Reliably. Take the same new car in your driveway rev it to 1500 rpm and then just sit in your driveway jamming the gear selector from forward to reverse only moving a foot each way and see if it will last a week? Most likely a lot less than a week. I am not saying that your method is catastrophic to equipment, but I'm betting you are calling tried and tested stupid when you have no actual cost of your own method to justify it. Machine repairs and down time cost money also. Last year I bought a 1953 Cat 112 Road grader. You wanna talk economy? I built 3 roads with this 68 year old machine. Cost me 3500 dollars 400 gallons of fuel and my time to do over 70,000 dollars worth of work. How much work and money did that machine make over 68 years? Think the new bigger better crap they sell today will last that long and have that economy? The technology alone will have the new stuff obsolete and recycled before it's half this old graders age. An old bull and his son are standing on a hill looking down at a field of cows. The son says to his dad: "Hey dad! Why don't we run down there and screw one of those cows? The dad says to the son: Why don't we walk down and screw them all? Economy is not speed! It's longevity and reliability!!!!! Seriously! I have to laugh. Folks are out there reliably running and creating and building with lathes and mills that were used in crazy levels of World War production, to this very day. Where is all this electrical technological based new stuff that costs a fortune today going to be in 25 years when all the circuitry and programming is obsolete? I mean spend a fortune to build things cheaper but aren't affordable to repair and in a decade the tools and the product will all be in the garbage or recycle by a generation that claims they are environmentally conscious. It's bat shit crazy! LMAO...

[@Terminatorder1]

Give me 10sek and i will do it without fusion...

[@rajasegaranful]

hey...this method is not suitable for other branded end mills