Stop the Threat! Winchester Elite Defender .380 ACP VS .38 Special+P

The title is information and text on the boxes. The .380 ACP is a 95 gr bonded JHP rated at 1,000 FPS and the .38 Special+P is a 130 gr bonded JHP rated at 950 FPS. I do a 10% Clear Ballistics test and compare accuracy. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...

[@akejohansson2860]

A 2" snub in 38spl is in my opinion a very HANDY option for protection against 4 and 2 legged critters, with the right holster👍 Nice testing Man👍👍

[@rafa35744]

I'm from Brazil and thanks to the current government these calibers are currently the maximum allowed for defense pistols, whereas the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .357 magnum are only for public security agents and high-level sports shooters.

[@JasonHenderson]

Why would your government want to restrict you to less powerful ammo?

[@RaeLN1]

it's a shame that we went back to the past like that, down here in BR...

[@lfcdz]

Do the L now.

[@alexskillz45]

Don't feel so bad. In the United States the propaganda is so strong that people choose smaller calibers. They trust the most untrustworthy agency telling them that 9mm is just as powerful as .45acp or .40s&w. At least the smart people such as myself have a major advantage over the majority. I like 38special with lead wadcutters. I think .380 is also great because the nose of the bullet is blunt, not pointy, which makes a big difference in terminal ballistics. Clear gel is also another FBI scam, it makes terminal ballistics perform similar to each other no matter the cartridge. Organic gel is the better testing gel. Most youtubers will use clear gel because the shills and bots will harass them non stop if they don't. They are highly controlled by govt and corp shills but think that it is actually consumer demand. Internet and social media demand is very different from reality. The internet gun world is very small and shills make up 75% of it.

[@FlyManChimera]

If Underwood Xtreme Defenders are legal there, thats what I would suggest. G9s for 380 also.

[@shawnsadventures2852]

Carrying multiple guns in different pockets reminds me of Paul..That Mall is in my neighborhood

[@frankhinkle5772]

Good to know, appreciate the test. I do carry a 2" .38Spl+P. Always looking for another ammunition option.

[@troy9477]

And that handily shows why i have never recommended 380 to anyone for defense. That is the fastest, widest expanding 380 ammo i have ever seen. But also the least oenetrating, which is logical. You are right- they need to slow it down. If they could reduce velocity a little, cut the expansion back to say, .50-.52", then it would penetrate at least somewhat better. That wouls almost be nirvana for the 380 crowd. Most 380 loads i have seen tested expand to .45-.50" at most, and still fall short of 12" penetration. But a few got close. The 380 just does not have the power. The 38 +p is a better choice across the board. The majority of people, if they are honest, are better served by a revolver. Capacity is a very small issue. The first 2-3 shots are what matter. That is your initial double tap and followup shot. After that, you should be moving to cover, if you were not (hopefully) already firing from cover. Good jdea ro change locations anyway, especially at night. Do not remain where the bad guy last saw you, or your muzzle flash. Even in daylight he might be dazed and confused from your flash and blast, and have trouble finding you.

[@bobcatforever3485]

GS. Good video and good information. That .380 ammo seemed to be one of the lowest penetration ammos I've seen you test. Thanks for sharing and take care.

[@totljag1]

Revolvers are making a huge comeback, people are sick of all these polymer pistols

[@ironmikehallowween]

The plastic, striker fired, 9 mms definitely work, and they are definitely boring.

[@totljag1]

@@DinoNucci u don’t know ! Check the prices on Gun Broker there averaging 2k-10 k on Gunbroker 😂😂😂😂 look how much used Glocks go for 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@totljag1]

@@ironmikehallowween I got plenty of plastic , only solid metal for me for now on 😜

[@Twisted4k]

Man, that is a sad .380, even for its own standards. :( The .38 special I thought was great, right up until it met the MDF. I think they'd be right where you want them if shot out of a 6'' barrel, but for a snub I think I'd want just a liiiittle more power. Great video as always, my man!! KEEP 'EM COMING

[@GunSam]

So this is going to be a pinned comment on every video I do from now on, the reason is because of the constant trolling I get over the SAME subject. My loyal subscribers act like I should just ignore comments like this, however what they do not realize is that a content creator has access to all their comments in one place and creators often respond to them all from one page. When every other comment is the same it wastes my time responding, so I am writing up this automated response specifically so I CAN easily ignore those comments and answer real comments. First of all, I am a ballistic tester, not a competition shooter nor do I give advice on how to shoot properly. This is not a "learn how to shoot" channel. The comment I get maybe 20 times a day collectively throughout my channel in some form is: "bro you need to not wrap your support thumb over you strong thumb, you NEED to push that thumb forward". My response is this: 1. It's called low thumbs, it is a proper grip that has been used for decades. Not knowing of it only shows your own ignorance. 2. I did not ask for your advice 3. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis and I use what grip is most comfortable to me. 4. I shoot revolvers as much as semi autos, getting into the habit of going straight thumbs is asking to have my thumb blown off 5. Watch some LE defensive shooting videos, 95% of the cops in those videos use the same grip I do because going from two handed to one, such as to use the radio or needing that weak hand in some way is likely to happen on a real defensive situation. If you have your strong hand thumb over your weak hand thumb and need that weak hand, you basically are going to end up doing what I do, but I do it from the beginning and train that way because I am NOT a competition shooter. I train for defensive situations, not scoring. 6. If you do comment on my 'wrong' grip technique, I require that comment to include video evidence of you using thumbs forward grip, and you shooting significantly better than me with it, including view of the target. No link in your comment results in automatic deletion of comment. It's that simple.

[@ronaldbelton7801]

I shoot low thumbs as well especially with revolvers.

[@RickGrimes357]

Great way to end the work week when Sam drops another video!So glad his health is better.

[@robcommorat2084]

Excellent content I would like to see the underwood 380+p 68 gr? Vs the 32 H&R mag and or 327 Federal

[@rangetime6779]

38 did really well, 380 not so much. Maybe you could retest 380 with a shorter barrel like your LCP? Thanks for a good test.

[@jamalmckenzie3822]

If it won't expand out of the M&P EZ it won't expand out of a LCP barrel

[@buttercup8583]

I think the idea is that a shorter barrel might decrease the velocity. This could in turn reduce the expansion, possibly resulting in more penetration with reasonable expansion.

[@oldcop18]

As someone that uses the LCP as an EDC this test was an eye opener. Thx Sam!

[@CarolinaRimfire]

Have you been happy with your LCP? I saw a used original LCP for relatively cheap in my local shop today and almost brought it home but ended up passing on it.

[@Me2Lancer]

Thanks for your post, Sam. Years ago I had several boxes of Winchester Ranger in .38 Special. I have also fired a good amount of Winchester PDX ammo. Wasn't aware Winchester had changed the name to Elite Defender.

[@shawnsadventures2852]

You got a great show been enjoying your videos

[@teuton6167]

@GunSam would you consider making kind of a summary video of the best 2 or 3 choices of ammo in your opinion and based on all of your testing over the last 3-4 years for each caliber (.38 .38+P 357 etc.) for self defense? Since many brands of ammo are often sold out it would be great to know the best 3 to get a good one that is available. Thanks!

[@ratroute8238]

Thanks for the test, good info for S&W owners for sure.

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

It's too bad the expansion of that .380 round isn't more controlled 'cause the velocity & weight seem to be ideal . Perhaps a bullet designed like those used in the "Critical Duty" line would solve the problem . As for the .38 , I'm impressed ! There aren't many loads below 158gr. that achieve 16" of penetration with expansion . Great test Gun Sam , and good job !

[@ratagris21]

According to a website this ammo is: Winchester PDX1 ammo is meant for personal defense. It's sophisticated projectile is designed to expand upon contact with a soft target, giving you the best chance possible to neutralize a threat. According to this video its doing what its meant do, but not according to FBI standards, but will do some harm to the attacker.

[@livincincy4498]

Thanks !!

[@NoFuxLeft2Give]

Thanx for that Sam! I have a good bit of that .38 on hand in the form of Ranger & PDX1 - the only difference is the box, lol. Anyways, I have been wanting to see it tested for some time. I was shooting some yesterday, & it wasn't bad out of my m&p 340 at all. The loads, though, that showed the most accuracy were the Hornady CD 110gr+p & the Buffalo Bore 158gr lswchp standard pressure. I carry the BB in the cylinder, & the CD in the speed loaders, since their shape facilitates a faster reload. It's good to know that those Winchesters would do in a pinch, too. Hope all is well! Cheers!

[@GunSam]

The Critical Defense shape is pretty good. In my experience, I tend to always hit the chambers misaligned and the rubber like tips hang up like sneakers rather than glide over like hard nose bullets.

[@petemarshall-ij9ke]

Other tests, and I believe, your previous test of the Defender out of a 2 inch snubby averages about 850 fps. IF Winchester is now pushing out 925 fps, then that is fantastic!

[@brianmoore1164]

Outstanding test. I have noticed that Winchester Defender is becoming difficult to find in my area.

[@327Federal]

Great Test

[@RyanCollins-iv2nl]

You do good job

[@JeffreyCotle]

Hi gun Sam. Thankyou very good video. I carry 38 spl. Im a revolver guy. Or a 1911 45. Auto. Both work very well. God bless. 😊

[@thomastune776]

Amazing results. 👍

[@tedcollins4684]

Thanks for testing. I would like to see the results from the shorter barrel.

[@duaneridings6591]

great video Sam

[@JeffreyCotle]

Gun Sam you are a good shot. Awsome ..😊

[@petemarshall-ij9ke]

Underwood produces a 140 grain 38 special cartridge. If you value deeper penetration, then that round may be a better option out of a snubby.

[@johnnymccann5607]

many,many years of reloading I find the same problem with 380acp .bullets that actually will expand good not go deep. I now shoot hardcast lead and berry's bonded rn hb . I recently ordered some hunter supply 355 dia 95 gr lhp bullets to try out. they were advertised from factory at no or minimum leading tested if I remember correctly 2000 fps . I haven't tested them yet. for deep penetration I like missouri bullet company's 355dia special agent 95gr 18 Brennal hardness factor. these at 3feet out of my Taurus spectrum will go 3 1/4 inch in pine decking board. my fie Walter 380acp clone will go 4.1/8 in .papa wishing you well 😊

[@timrobinson6573]

Ypu do great videos already but have you considered putting time stamp marks on your video? I like them so I can go back and check.

[@GunSam]

Time stamps, as in how?

[@ApolloPerez-gt9ft]

That’s pretty good energy in that 38spl

[@DanTheWolfman]

The Ranger 38+P 4 Layer Denim OFFICIAL manufacture nembers was 11" Organic Gel. NEXT week I give the OFFICIAL numbers that Federal gave me New .25 Punch, 32 & 38 Hydrashok Deep which really Ups those IMO, .327 HST and Gold Dot, 9mm Punch, and current 147 HST data. I'm considering gettinf a .32acp and a .32 Long if people watch my Modern Meat Target Vids...

[@GunSam]

I want a standalone .32 ACP pistol as well. Been wanting to test that caliber for a long time. When I ran some in my .327 Federal revolver, I lost like 300 FPS much like how shooting .22 LR in a .22 Magnum revolver, just doesn't work right. The .25 ACP, I have had a saved page for a long time with a Phoenix Arms .25 auto for $180 lol. I am on the fence on if this is a dumb idea or a good one. I have no .25 ACP experience at all.

[@DanTheWolfman]

@GunSam get a decent .32 acp instead...Classics longer barrels or 32 keltec

[@DanTheWolfman]

@@DinoNucci or someone w disability chemically burnt hands on a cell phone

[@josephpepper3087]

Yes! Get a Beretta 81 or VZ-61. Get whatever cheap shorty pocket .32 you can. I'd enjoy seeing .25 acp, too! I sometimes carry these two calibers with FMJ. I've chronographed them. Factory .32 acp fmj ranges from 750 fps from a keltec P32 to 1150 fps from an Allegheny Arms threaded Beretta 81 or VZ61 barrel.

[@dangerman007]

The .38 did pretty good through the snub. I think this would do really well in a 4-inch (hint for future video). The .380 was disappointing, classic high energy and expansion with dangerously poor penetration.

[@indycharlie]

Nice , and food for thought .

[@chrisgabbert658]

👍😊 on the 380 at the 40y probably not doing the expansion and you were hitting.

[@ED-2.0.9.]

2:44 Snub Life, heck-yeah!

[@Fudmottin]

Depending on price, the 38 isn't too bad. It's a bit shy of the 950 fps minimum I would like, but the energy is within a whisker of 250ft-lbs. So not bad. It's a hole.

[@CreasyEQ]

Smooth shooters 🤝🏾

[@jermainerace4156]

.380ACP is the .38 replacement that never lived up. It may be a contributing factor as to why police used revolvers for so long.

[@robertlemaster7525]

I really wish you would have shown results from just the heavy fabric and no HD Fiberboard...

[@GunSam]

Well, if you want to see bad results that's your right. I prefer to see the potential bullet mangling a rib does, as changing the diameter of the bullet like a rib impact ALWAYS does, is important as it changes the penetration depth, and disregarding that fact is the biggest flaw in regular ballistic gel testing.

[@drewmoore365]

Hey Sam what's your opinion on the 686+ and the 627. Just wondering was there any specific reason you chose the 6 shot? Thanks

[@Gieszkanne]

I recently had the idea that 380 ACP maybe could get more penetration if the manufacturers would go with heavier bullets. Maybe like 110gr or so. What are your thoughts on that.

[@troy9477]

FWIW, the heaviest 380 ammo i know of is the Remington Golden Saber 102 gr. Being that heavy, it is slower. Most of the testing of it that i have seen showed little or no expansion and okay penetration, but not real deep. The 380 just does not have the power to give both penetration and expansion. One has to suffer to get the other, as we saw here

[@jimsanders4412]

The main problem with the .380 is you either get expansion OR penetration. VERY seldom can you have both. Just the nature of the beast.

[@tomswan3805]

Would like to see the 38 special in a 3"

[@curtisparker9559]

So might as well use FMJ with a .380 for self defense?

[@GunSam]

That's, the opposite of good advice.

[@ShastaBean]

where are you pulling that claim from that penetration in gel is half of what penetration is in a body?

[@GunSam]

I would have explained. But the word "pulling" is purposeful gaslighting. So my response is, go find out for yourself. And I never said penetration in gel is half that of a human body, I said it's a half representation, so a bullet goes twice as far in gel than it does in a body.

[@GunSam]

Written by: Greg Ellifritz I’ve written in the past about some ballistic testing I observed at one of the past Rangemaster Tactical Conferences I attended. The bottom line of the article was that one shouldn’t depend on expansion from short barreled pocket pistols. That article generated all kinds of emails and questions on Facebook. Most questions centered around the issue of handgun gelatin penetration. Almost all of the rounds we tested penetrated a full 16″ of gelatin. Folks were asking me why a bullet would need to penetrate 16″ when the heart and other vital organs are only a few inches deep in the chest cavity. The reason is that penetration in gelatin is not the same as penetration in human flesh and bone. The human body is not a consistent medium. Muscle, fat, organ, and bone all have different mass, density, hardness, and flexibility. In general, a bullet will penetrate much deeper in gelatin that it will in human flesh. The primary reason for the diminished penetration in an actual body is the presence of skin and bone. Skin is very elastic. A bullet uses up a lot of energy stretching the skin before the skin actually breaks. Most ballistic experts believe that the skin itself is equal to one to two inches of gelatin penetration. Bones also tremendously slow bullets and limit their penetration. We want a bullet that penetrates 12″-18″ of gelatin. That translates to roughly 6″-10″ of human flesh, depending on the structures hit. That introduction brings us to today’s topic…. Many people see that a bullet penetrates 16″ in gelatin and they say “that’s too deep.” The average human body isn’t that thick. People start thinking a round that penetrates 16″ will drill right through the bad guy and then endanger any innocent person standing behind him. That’s not how it works. A few years ago ago, I participated in a ballistic laboratory of a different sort at the Paul-E-Palooza Memorial Training Conference. Instead of shooting gelatin, we shot (dead) pigs instead. It gave us the ability to actually see how bullets performed in real flesh and bone. The three pigs were humanely harvested by their grower, and then shot by instructors at the training conference. Doctors, military medics, and a veterinary surgeon then conducted necropsies of the shot pigs for the class. Everyone actually was able to see what bullets do to real tissue. It’s very different than what happens when you shoot a block of gelatin. The pigs were not fully grown. I would estimate that they were somewhere between 80 and 100 pounds each. The width (side to side) of each pig carcass was less than 12 inches. Instructors shot the pigs for a distance of approximately seven feet away. They shot with all of the following calibers: 9mm 127 grain +P Winchester SXT (head shots) (from Glock 17) 9mm 124 grain Speer Gold Dot (from Glock 17) 9mm 147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2 (from Glock 17) .38 spl 148 grain Wadcutter (from 2″ .38 snub) .22 LR 36 grain Lead Round Nose (from 3″ barrel .22 semi automatic) 12 gauge Federal 9-pellet 00 Buck .45 Colt 225 grain Hornady Leverevolution hollow point (from Rossi lever action rifle with 16″ barrel) Keep in mind, all of the pigs were less than twelve inches across. Every load tested penetrates deeper than twelve inches in gelatin. How many rounds do you think penetrated through and through on the pigs? If you guessed NONE you would be correct. Not a single round (including the rifle and shotgun rounds) fully penetrated the pigs. Most wound channels were six to eight inches deep. Those that hit larger bones terminated even earlier. This really shouldn’t be a surprise to any of my long time readers. Results were similar to the pig wound ballistics lab held during the previous PEP Conference. In that lab, instructors shot the pigs with: 9mm 147 Grain Federal HST .40 180 Grain federal HST 5.56 mm 55 grain Hornady TAP 12 gauge 00 Buck and birdshot. You can read the linked article for details, but none of those rounds fully penetrated similarly sized pigs either. 12 gauge birdshot to hind limb from seven yards What does this mean for you? It means that you shouldn’t worry so much about your round passing through a bad guy and hitting someone else. With quality hollowpoint bullets, that rarely happens. In most police shootings, medical examiners recover the bullet just under the skin on the far side of the suspect’s body. If the round does penetrate all the way through, it is often found caught up in the suspect’s clothing, not having enough remaining energy to penetrate even a couple layers of cloth. Don’t buy rounds that fail to penetrate 12″ of ballistic gelatin. The FBI set that standard for a reason. Twelve inches of gelatin penetration is barely enough to reliably hit the vital organs on a human body, especially if the round is fired cross body or has to penetrate a substantial bone before reaching vital organs. Definitely avoid the gimmicky rounds like the extremely light weight hollowpoints that are designed for massive expansion. Avoid Glasers, RIP, or MagSafe rounds that only penetrate a few inches of gelatin. In real bodies, those rounds don’t go deep enough to reliably reach the vital organs and may fail to adequately stop a criminal suspect. Pick a jacketed hollowpoint bullet from a quality manufacturer (I like Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, and Speer Gold Dots) that penetrates between 12″ and 18″ in calibrated ballistic gelatin. Then stop worrying. Those bullets are not likely to overpenetrate a human body and cause damage to an innocent person. Your misses are what will cause damage to innocent people. Instead of worrying about carrying the latest under-penetrating “super bullet”, spend your time improving your accuracy and speed so that you can reliably hit your attacker. Stop worrying so much about overpenetration. In real tissue, it rarely happens with well designed hollow point bullets.

[@ShastaBean]

​@@GunSam I thought about editing my question, after sending it because of that word and how it might be received. I didn't mean it in the way you assumed, but do understand you thinking that. It was a sincere question. I didn't want the question to say "edited", so I left it as is. I should have posted a reply to myself and said, "getting, not pulling". My bad on that Yes, I understood you meant gel allows penetration twice as far, but yeah, mis-worded it flipped based on hearing how you said it. I'm glad you posted a source...although I am going to pull info from that quote and will reply separately to that part.

[@ShastaBean]

​@@GunSam ​ Your tests are filled with extremely valuable info. On the other hand, the stuff in that blurb by Greg E. is absent it. The words upon words in his writing, as well as the linked article that is mentioned, that I found...have no actual depths listed. The closest thing I found; it says the 147 gr HST "9mm round that had gone through the chest cavity was found under the skin of the opposite shoulder and retrieved." was in the linked article mentioned. So what is that 11.9"? And compared to the ~14" it goes in synthetic, and ~13 in organic bare gel? That's not "half". That's 91.5% for FBI gel, or 85% if clear gel. We're left to just guess whether the other rounds went 1.1" or 11.75"?...was it 4"? Was it 10"? and specifically correlating depths to hits in the various tests with each caliber. Did it go through 2 hips? or ribs? No tape measures. No video. Photos of little value. I also found it interesting (amusing) to see his writing that's going off on "gimmicky rounds like the extremely light weight hollowpoints that are designed for massive expansion"...and then in the test they use 55 gr TAP round (which appears to just be a vmax) for their 5.56 and then go on about how rifle is so much better than pistol. wild. I also saw his mention that skin, "itself is equal to one to two inches of gelatin penetration"...Last week I saw a person say 4"...I asked for a source, and of course as one might expect...got nothing back...other than some insults. Appreciate what you do! Didn't and don't mean to gaslight but until I see something actually proving it...the only thing I'll accept is that gel vs actual is possibly somewhat different. But significantly, like half? I don't think so...yet.

[@ShastaBean]

@@GunSam familiar with danthewolfman?

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Oh my 380 is very shallow. Not for me. 38 is decent. Thank you.

[@kc0lif]

not bad for both.

[@michaelrocole7174]

380 is a poor SD choice unless you buy the monolithic extreme defender bullets or from a carbine. 38 special is better choice.

[@dumpsterchicken6287]

No 380 for me

[@ED-2.0.9.]

Bird @ 3:44 sounds like a dog @ 3:58 in slow-mo ...

[@jat3860]

Why do you think your batch of Winchester is so fast with FPS? Multiple other reliable sources who tested these Winchesters speed only clocked them at 823 FPS and 868 FPS.

[@GunSam]

I cannot confirm this is a batch thing. In recent times I have just seen higher numbers with defensive ammo, so what is probably going on is that Winchester has taken the complaints seriously and is loading hotter ammo now. Probably because their rival Remington started upping their power in their defensive ammo. I know it's not my chronograph as I ran some .45 ACP over it today that were rated at 890 FPS and I averaged 881.

[@RoadTraveler]

Bump

[@danoneill2846]

Isin't that Special !!!

[@GunSam]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6SnlIaeq8SlaJI

[@danoneill2846]

@@GunSam

[@goldeneagle5823]

Your the best gun and ammo review guy on utube 👍🫡