STOP Using Stone Dust for Pavers | Problems with This Raised Patio

[@lauracooper5882]

Your video may be very informative but so hard to see. You’re moving the camera too fast. Can’t really focus on what you’re trying to tell us.

[@iamahardscaper]

sorry for the camera movement!

[@kentr.1391]

Is using grade 9 gravel okay to get to the level you need ? Then cover the grade 9 with woven geo fabric then 4 " open grade material, then 1" limestone chips 3/8 then pavers ?

[@iamahardscaper]

From what I see grade 9 is (3/4" down to fines), yes you can do as you said there

[@underedenxx]

Why did chapmans in Scarborough sell me limestone and not suggest something else 🤔

[@iamahardscaper]

😬

[@underedenxx]

Wtf is stone dust? Isn't that limestone screening? 🤦‍♀️ I'm in the middle of using it fml

[@iamahardscaper]

stone dust, limestone screening, chip dust, it goes by many names.

[@brunopascal3793]

"STOP Using Stone Dust for Pavers... STOP Using Stone Dust for Pavers...". Yes, yes, yes, we heard you the first time... Why don't you complete it by saying WHAT we should use in lieu of, or edit your text later to tell us WHAT to use? This is quite frustrating to keep hearing the same warning throughout the entire video and never get to hear about the recommended material. Grrrr!!!

[@iamahardscaper]

Search our channel for “base”. You’ll find what we recommend 👍 this is specifically about why you should not use stone dust

[@StudioChimps]

Dire video!

[@chomper4x4]

5 minutes into it and i don't know what you are supposed to use instead of stone dust.

[@iamahardscaper]

This video is just about why you should not use stone dust, but if you visit our channel you can find several other options 👍

[@tedebayer1]

We used to use nothing but stone dust for patio areas and didn't have any call back issues... mind you we use to compact the area as well as the stone dust very well. We also used to slightly slope the entire area so rains would run off and away the patio area. Sitting water will create problems for sure. I can see in this original project a lot of areas where water would not shed.

[@iamahardscaper]

Yes especially with it being a raised patio built level, there was nowhere for water to go

[@ericvidal2110]

My local supplier suggested I use manufactured sand on top of road base for my paver base. Is manufactured sand different from stone dust?

[@iamahardscaper]

I don’t know. I’d ask them what that is. If it is angular chips down to fines, that is stone dust. If it is concrete sand or just a sand-like consistency, they are probably steering you in the right direction.

[@raekc4839]

Hello. Grateful for your video to learn more. I'm doing a brick paver walkway around my garden. I used "Sakrete Step 1 paver base" with about an inch of "Sakrete leveling sand Step 2". Is that product OK? I dug down to about 4 or 5 inches where earth was hard clay. I put landscape cloth down on dirt before adding the paver base. I was going to wait until Fall before adding the polymer sand at end of job in case I had any modifications. Any suggestions or comments on what I've done - right or wrong before I finish it? I have about a 10 ft. straight section done and lot more to do with some curves. Its only 29" wide. Its just to walk and work around my garden area. I didn't want to have to keep weeding the area where nothing is planted. I'm wondering if those Sakrete products I'm using are considered "stone dust" ?

[@iamahardscaper]

I don’t believe so, I think they are A gravel and concrete sand so you are good. Depending on your climate and if you experience freeze thaw cycles, I do a minimum of 6” of base with proper compaction. Hope that helps!

[@bonanzatime]

Lol. I stopped using stone dust in 1993. .. What took you so long to figure it out?😅

[@iamahardscaper]

Haha good call. 👍 Never used stone dust, only ever took it out of jobs

[@brianpoe9860]

Well done!!! How did you get the mini skid steer over the wall to load the wheel barrows without damaging the wall?

[@iamahardscaper]

Thank you! We built a ramp up and over it and then took it down to be able to wheel right up with our wheelbarrows to load.

[@dennisgruba4792]

I just did my first paver patio 8x12 pad with 4” of #10 granite screen. I put 2” down, wetted, hand compacted with 8x8 tamp, then same with top 2”. It has a mobile shed over its entire surface now and I will be putting a drain system around it. Fingers crossed.

[@iamahardscaper]

👍👍

[@matthewwells2019]

That’s a nightmare! I ONLY ever use 1/4” clear stone for a final bedding layer of < 1”

[@iamahardscaper]

Yup absolutely! 👍

[@Mark-nd4in]

I love your website and your videos. I did custom hardscapes for a short time many years ago. Even though I only did it for a short time, it's a trade that I enjoyed and I still do small jobs from time to time. The landscaping company that I worked for 17-ish years ago laid everything on screenings / stone dust, so that's what I've continued to use until reading about the pitfalls of screenings recently. I'm doing a small job (on my own house) now, and instead of stone dust I'm using road base / crusher run with a 1" leveling layer of concrete sand, as recommended by the ICPI. When I worked in landscaping, we returned to some of the jobs that we laid on stone dust 3-4 years later and they still looked good, and this was in Wisconsin where there are significant freeze-thaw cycles. Three to four years isn't a very long time for a patio or retaining wall, however, so I am curious to see what some of those jobs would look like now. Unfortunately I no longer live in that area, and don't recall where all the jobs were that we did. One thing that makes me curious with the patio in the video - seeing pavers sink that much makes me wonder if either the base wasn't compacted sufficiently, or if there is washout of the fines happening somewhere. (Perhaps between the blocks of retaining wall around the patio?) I'm not arguing that stone dust doesn't have inherent issues (washout of fines is an inherent issue). Or perhaps, as you say, it's just frost heave running it's course...

[@iamahardscaper]

Yes, definitely some more things going on here than just stone dust as the culprit. Probably poor compaction from subsoil to base. Good point 👍👍

[@FumblingwithFlowers]

Wow, that's a big job taking all of that stone dust out and redoing it. Curious if you could give your thoughts about a DIY for a small pergola away from the house: Is it ok to just put down weed barrier then inches of paver base?

[@iamahardscaper]

With pergolas we do concrete piers below frost line and then tapcon into the concrete to fasten the pergola to them. Then build our patio around them.

[@manjarikapashi9195]

I am an older woman and hoping to make flagstone a pebble patio. Going to remove my grass and compact the clay soil and put landscaping fabric and was hoping to put sand on top of fabric and arrange irregular flagstone and put pebbles around and also to put plastic edging around. Now I am wondering whether to put sand or just lay the flagstone and pebbles please advise thanks

[@iamahardscaper]

Setting the flagstone in sand will be better than setting it into the pebbles because I assume the pebbles are round(ish). If it is just a small walkway that does not get much traffic and is more for aesthetics, you could probably get away with it as a DIYer. If you do use sand, you will want to add fabric on top of the sand, place the flagstone, and then place your pebbles. Otherwise the pebbles will eventually mix with the sand.

[@_danahmed]

You gotta use heavy course gravel for the base, compact that and do 2-3 inches of stone dust. Stone dust cannot hold a lot of weight, the gravel base when compacted can. If someone built a patio with only stone dust that’s a fail.

[@iamahardscaper]

Yes, big fail when built only out of stone dust. But it also Doesn’t change the fact all product warranties are now void once you use stone dust.

[@noahschmartz2354]

Is there not a confusion of points here? surely the biggest mistake here was putting in the dust to such a depth instead of using coarse gravel underneath. would the exact same problem not have occurred had the pavers been laid on 6 inches of sand?

[@iamahardscaper]

Very true, there would be a similar problem if laid on 6 inches of sand, but the points to laying on stone dust whether just the bedding layer or the full depth remain relevant.

[@joecina559]

Thank you for an informative video. You're a very good teacher.

[@iamahardscaper]

I really appreciate that!

[@Al-xk7wl]

Looks like I’ve got a lot of digging and removal of all that stone dust come Spring. Lol.

[@iamahardscaper]

😂

[@lauraliisana]

Me and my husband are in process of making a walkway to our backyard. Based on other comments here, I think we're going to choose the granite screen for leveling. However, we have different shape slates and we're trying to make kind of a pattern ourselves with random shapes. But I know there's going to be gaps between the slates, maybe 1-2 in wide. What should we fill out these gaps with to be sure the pavers won't remain loose or lose their position while walking on them? I know one option would be polymeric sand, but another video of yours showed problems with polymeric sand and our walkway is kind of in the shadow of huge trees we got there so doesn't have huge amount of direct sunlight onto it. What else could be a good choice?

[@iamahardscaper]

This video should help you: Choosing the Best Paver Jointing Compound kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpTXdYxmqdWUfcU

[@stevie3342]

My local Home Depot suggest I use crushed stone dust, with brock panels over top. Would you agree?

[@iamahardscaper]

Nope, there’s no application for stone dust under pavers

[@Andrewwashere1987]

Maybe I missed it, but what exactly are you using as base and in-between the pavers?? I have a small area behind a house under a wood deck. 10 X 30 feet slight pitch for runoff all flat no steps. What should I use a base??

[@iamahardscaper]

Under a deck? Can’t be seen? You can use a fabric and some aggregate. If it can be seen and you will be sitting on it, search our main channel page for base and you will find a video that can help

[@rainazale4722]

I learned from videos like this how terrible it is to not have visible dislike option . You Yube vasting our time.

[@iamahardscaper]

YES! KZbin has given us vast amounts of time back. they vast our time soo much!

[@justinmancini5846]

When building stairs infront of a patio door like that what do you mean by there should be a relief wall? If I am building 3 steps with Mega Melville Steps, could I just pack 3/4 clean in the middle of them?

[@iamahardscaper]

Yup that works. As long as blocks are against the foundation with a small gap between them, you are good 👍

[@justinmancini5846]

@@iamahardscaper alot of people are recommending to put a piece of platon dimple side against the house behind the stairs to maintain the gap and protect the house. They also say it helps the brick breathe through the breather holes.

[@wesbrown430]

Stone Dust drains better than sand. You must not be using real stone dust. Itis crushed rock!

[@iamahardscaper]

I would respectfully disagree. Stone Dust is what is left over material at the end of production from a quarry. It does not allow for proper drainage and that is why manufacturer warranties on product will be voided if you use it.

[@jasonberezny9705]

Excellent presentation! Thank you. That was an excessive amount of screenings 🙄😂 I’ve been a Hardscaper for 30 years in Ontario Canada. I am 50 now. I started in 1990 in Toronto. We always used 3/4 or 5/8 clean only for slab or block steps. For pavers, 6” of 5/8 crush, and 2” of construction sand for final base. When I moved to Kingston ( The Limestone city) in 2000 the standard was 6” 5/8 and 2” stone dust. Over the last 20 years as a Hardscape foreman I’ve noticed this issue firsthand and ripped out many landscapes due to this but only just realized what a problem it is. How do you feel about Gator board products and HPB stone for base? ✌️👊

[@iamahardscaper]

Amazing! I’m from Ontario too 👍. I’m a big fan of Gator Base. We use it in our tight access situations or projects that can be built on the existing grade. Our oldest project is 5 years and we’ve never had a problem with them.

[@jasonberezny9705]

@@iamahardscaper I’ve been binging your videos for the last couple hours. Subscribed. Excellent channel buds!👊🇨🇦

[@iamahardscaper]

Thank you! Love hearing that

[@anonymous_commenter123]

@@jasonberezny9705 Hey do you still live in Kingston and if so, do you know where I can order HPB by the yard in the area? I've tried looking it up but I only see places in the GTA area

[@thereefaholic]

You should do a video on how they do it On Long Island. They do it one of two ways. Either sand over an RCA base when filling the raised patio, or dry pack cement over an RCA base.

[@iamahardscaper]

Hmm that’s interesting

[@ivans613]

If the raised patio here was built with the proper base i.e 3/4 clear or Gran A and the owner decided they wanted to get rid of the raised patio could you at least reuse the base material for another project or is there a reason why this shouldn't be done? Thanks!

[@iamahardscaper]

As long as organic materials haven’t worked there way into the base. Fabric separators help that.

[@phaseshifter3d455]

We don't get to see what it was replaced with. :(

[@iamahardscaper]

We used this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnXMap2LhsZjeqc

[@djmeech8717]

Its called crusher fines n do to it being made of lime the man part of cement when compacted it acts like concrete

[@iamahardscaper]

👍

[@ral3178]

Do you think stone dust would work for base under a concrete slab in a barn?

[@iamahardscaper]

Oh I wouldn’t be able to say, but I have not heard of many people using it for concrete slabs.

[@kostakutsh7810]

What kind of Skid is that ? Thanks

[@iamahardscaper]

It’s a Boxer

[@GE0RGl0S]

so product would you recommend to use in place of stone dust?

[@iamahardscaper]

For a bedding layer we use HPB, sometimes concrete sand.

[@brandoncarbary1529]

This is saying don’t use stone dust! A lot of times we buy a blend of crusher run from 1 -2” stones all the way down to fines. The blend is intentionally to allow for surface hardness and drainage. We use construction sand as a bedding material because the sun angular particles of the sand creates a working bridge to the pores of the crusher run

[@iamahardscaper]

Definitely! Though we prefer a 3/4” down to fines or Granular A as opposed to 1-2” down to fines.

[@johnbower]

@ brandoncarbary. That is the best way to make a good base.

[@johnbower]

@@iamahardscaper The best base for most jobs is to use 1"to 2" stone crushed all the way down to fines for first layer around 4" to 6" deep, then use 3/4" stone crushed all the way down to fines for next layer around 2" deep, each layer properly mixed and compacted, then finish off with a thin layer of compacted concreting sand 1/4" to 1/2" deep (max) before laying the paving.

[@megansmith1382]

If I was this homeowner I'd be soooo mad 😠 😤

[@iamahardscaper]

👍👍

[@johntiedemann1746]

Another great video with important info / details to remember.

[@iamahardscaper]

Thank you for watching!

[@michaelnoakes5803]

No wonder why it's sinking over 8" of *Granite Dust/Stone Dust* You should only allow 40-50mm Max when using any Screed Layer for Driveways or Patio in that matter. Always wacker plate the first layer and stamp the second final screed layer. Leaving 5-10mm proud if joining up to surrounding levels,, kiln Dry sand swept all over & wacker plated 3 times.. I could go on 😂, Great videos though, we all learn from our mistakes ❤

[@iamahardscaper]

💯 and well explained on your part!

[@Philadelphia19147]

Can you post another video of how you solved the problem. People love to see the before after and the process

[@iamahardscaper]

I wish I could, I only have a little more videos of this project. This was the first project I committed to filming and it got a little overwhelming part way through. I may do an explainer video with the remainder of the footage or there will always be some raised patios we do next season. Thanks for the comment!

[@botanicajames]

Same here, great vid but no solution isn't really helpful at all. :-(

[@montdino9775]

Is that ok to use as a 50mm screed under Astro grass

[@iamahardscaper]

Under artificial turf would not have the same negative effects. It still would not allow for proper drainage though so you would want to plan for that.

[@montdino9775]

Cheers thank you

[@frankflanagan109]

Great info, thanks for posting and please keep them coming!

[@iamahardscaper]

I really appreciate that and comments like this! Keep em coming 👍👍

[@joshwiles1547]

Really hope you see this comment! The videos are awesome I've got a question. Regarding your pricing of jobs, do you give an estimate and then charge according to the work you do? I know in the case of this project you ran into a ton of stone and excavating 11 inches of it certainly takes more time than you may have initially quoted. To wrap that question up, do you charge a fixed quote and then hope you run into no issues, or do you give an estimate to provide yourself with a cushion in case something takes longer than previously expected, and charge accordingly? Thanks so much!

[@iamahardscaper]

Good question! We provide quotes for the work but we have a clause for unforeseen circumstances / underground obstructions just in case we run into these problems. And we communicate that with the client that we are quoting for “x” but when we start excavating we could run into something that would be a change order. We try not to charge for those unforeseen though if we can eat the cost. It’s worth more to us that we can leave the client happy and maybe get some word of mouth leads from them rather than get a few more dollars in our pockets. In this case we did not charge. Hope that helps!

[@joshwiles1547]

That’s awesome! Thanks so much for the timely response!! And I noticed in another one of your videos in the comments that you charge roughly 10-15$ per square foot. Is that still the case? And if so, do you always charge on a per square foot basis to systematize your pricing? Or do you primarily just use intuition along with your knowledge of your overhead to determine how much you’ll charge. Thanks so much again for taking the time, it’s really appreciated!

[@iamahardscaper]

Yeah we are in that range. We use production rates to calculate labor hours which also calculates in our overhead. We have a software we just built that helps with this along with many other functions 👍

[@joshwiles1547]

Awesome, thanks so much again for taking the time to read and respond to the comments. All the best!!

[@iamahardscaper]

👍👍

[@mikesorensen5228]

Well obviously if you use 10 inches of stone dust, you're going to have problems. Built patios and driveways using stonedust that don't look that bad after 15 -20 years. I don't think stonedust is the problem. Let me rephrase that: stonedust is not the problem.

[@iamahardscaper]

I’ve seen plenty of projects built on stone dust fail compared to others. Even if you don’t believe it’s inferior, it voids manufacturer warranties so your already doing your client a disservice using it.

[@CyndiConnard]

It's the problem long-term...fact

[@mitchelljohnson9354]

Do you consider 1/2” minus DG stone dust? I was told it was a good base

[@iamahardscaper]

That’s getting pretty small. Depends if it is dust with the minus. Our dense graded is 3/4” minus. What people consider stone dust is 1/4” minus and is just leftovers at the gravel pits which is why it is down to dust.

[@mitchelljohnson9354]

@@iamahardscaper Thanks for the quick response. I posted on your facebook page some water damage that occurred to my paver pathway. Could you give me your opinion on it?

[@mitchelljohnson9354]

@@iamahardscaperThe DG that I get has the 1/2" down to what feels like coarse/large sand. So it's hard for me to call that dust if you will. But going forward I'll probably need to use traditional 3/4 minus road base.

[@iamahardscaper]

I don't even know where that post is. Best chance is just message me directly on Facebook or Instagram

[@iamahardscaper]

that is the safest

[@davefulton7428]

Nice video haha so much stone dust man oh man. I'd be interested in seeing all the base prep especially the drainage. Love this stuff.

[@iamahardscaper]

Haha I was not expecting the upper portion of the patio to be completely stone dust. There may be a full video, but this is from when I first started filming my projects and there just is not a whole lot of footage from it. What you see here is the majority that I got.

[@TheJ4RyD]

1:16 How does moisture being on top of the bedding cause anything on top of the paver, and what does this have to do with the polysand drying? I'm confused by this sentence.

[@iamahardscaper]

Moisture being present causes efflorescence which leaches through the surface of the paver. So having that moisture always present on top of the bedding layer will cause that efflorescence on the surface. For the polysand, if there is no chance for it to dry and cure because there is no way for the water to drain through the bedding layer, it will cause the polysand to not dry and cure. It will never have a chance to solidify and it will fail. Hope this helps 👍