Strong Knight Tournament Lists - Imperial Knights + Chaos Knights Army Lists in 10th Edition

[@cvalvano]

So, two notes on my War Dogs + GUO list. Apparently neither I nor anyone else at the event noticed, but I was using Havoc Multi-Launchers on every dog all weekend. This was merely a failure on my part to proofread. The second thing is that the GUO is present because it's durable and the -1 Toughness ability helps with a lot of breakpoints for the dogs. It was key in the Orks (Meganobz), Black Templars (Terminators) and Chaos Space Marines (Abbadon and his Legionaries) wins.

[@Chris-jl6vp]

Ehhhh, I wish both knights factions had more incentive to take titanic knights, rather than commonly running lists of 200 armigers and one knight, or hell even no knights at all. It's very lacking in flavour, especially for chaos knights.

[@Grooviebones]

I wish the same but titanic knight profiles and statlines are frankly not built for casual 40k. I'm sure the balancing is fine but I don't bring knights to pubs at my game store for a reason.

[@timho4386]

I actually like it. It's like a pack of Velociraptors hunting their prey

[@Chris-jl6vp]

@@timho4386 I'm sure you do but I'd like to be able to choose one composition or the other without a loss to combat effectiveness, otherwise what's the point of having titanic knights when they're such a huge hastle to assemble and paint by comparison.

[@Chris-jl6vp]

@@GrooviebonesNot even casual 40k? Damn I thought they were just unviable in tournaments, well that's depressing.

[@MrSombrecoeur]

this armies dont perform on real wtc tournament.

[@ripandtear5277]

Ah yes codex: Imperial Armigers and Codex: Chaos Wardogs my favorites

[@ca11rl77]

We desperately need another detachment. Like the drukhari got one early. Especially chaos knights, something that doesn't rely on battleshock

[@cinderheart2720]

Or a change to it. Having it only come online on round 3 means you really need the durability to *last* until turn 3, much less 5.

[@davidcanty7903]

I am afraid they're just going to keep increasing the points on Wardogs without ever making big Knights Competative

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

That’s their stupid way of making titanic knights “more viable” by making wardogs as shitty per point.

[@ethanthomas3059]

And yet I still take my Desecrator Abominant and Rampager to tournaments. I play knights for knights damn it!

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

Abominant was my first knight, i’ve never even played it but I’ve never regretted getting it. It’s cool af.

[@Tiberius_Gol]

Actually on closer inspection, I think the Atrapos is really solid for the points. 440 points for 25 wounds, some decent anti tank, some decent anti-heavy infantry (albeit both are swingy with those D6's and D3's) and some really solid melee. Pack on an ability for some guaranteed 2+ BS on intended vehicle/monster targets, and a 1+ to wound on Knight equivalents.. honestly all of that for 440 points is really good if you compare it to some other knights, not a lot of them get the luxury of having such solid options for both ranged and melee.

[@timunderbakke8756]

I’m actually super tempted to buy some war dogs to run as karnivores in my TSons army for something else high strength high mobility. Someday I’d like to make a full chaos knights force but that feels like a long way off.

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

You just buy 5-8 wardog packs and a cerastus lancer to compete apparently

[@rivalun7696]

Perfect timing! I came back from the city with some paints to start my 2 Chainbreaker Lance boxes from 2022 and 2 Dominus knights scattered in my pile

[@thekiwi829]

the last time I was this early I still served the emperor

[@specter2621]

It's really awkward that the best titanic knight type model for Chaos is the Great Unclean One.

[@kingdragune1238]

The great unclean one is only 230 points, same points as rotigus. Is generally the best chaos daemon ally as you need a battleline unit which nurglings conveniently are.

[@Eniclac]

I love my Knights, but I hate that I have to play so many Armigers, I want to play the big mechs not puny little ding'a lings...

[@Tiberius_Gol]

I really wish IK Armigers had some better options like the Chaos Knights do, the flexibility Chaos has with their little lads is insane, it's no wonder there are big ol wardogs packs running around

[@cjwarden1084]

I really like the difference between the two. It would be easy for the two armies to just be complete mirrors of one another, with a single character different; but I prefer the idea of "a group of knights with their squires" (which would be helped by restoring Bondsman properly), vs "one huntmaster with his pack of hounds". It think differentiating similar factions is good for the game overall (think of how long SM and CSM were basically the same army through 2nd and 3rd ed).

[@Tiberius_Gol]

@@cjwarden1084 I don't disagree with you, I do think differences between the two are important. I just think it'd be nice to have some diversity, even at a point premium. Wardogs are flat better, and I'm okay with that. But they're flat better while also being able to do pretty much anything you want them to. I don't want Armigers to be THAT diverse, I just want them to have at least a couple more options

[@lassemelson5668]

@@Tiberius_Gol while i get your ideas the winrates atm has ik slightly ahead of ck

[@klaykid117]

Imperial knights really need a good way for you to have house soldiers. Even if it's just rules and not actual models so people can take their imperial guardsmen and paint them in the night house colors. Is unfortunate that the nights were created in a previous edition in which allying with other factions was a lot easier

[@Lilrockerdude13]

Pulled a Chaos Knights pin from the random bag and have been wanting to start the army for a year or so now. Might be due time with the Chaos Marines codex on the horizon of which I still have the Start Collecting! box built from a few years back

[@dsedh23]

This is what we’ve been waiting for

[@Adalon-]

Honestly this is just why I don't play competitively really. I play Ck for the big knights, so I'll keep running 3 of them because it's fun.

[@otisred7848]

A couple points. One: Both factions need a none allied infantry unit. In the lore they do. Two: if you want to build an Atrapos it's easy. Buy any ceraastus knight you want and have fun converting. That's what I did for mine, online you can find after market 3D printed knight weapons (I won't plug the site here). I just ordered a couple weapons and took a deep dive into my bitz box for extra bits like armour plates and extra cables and hoses. I love mine he does a lot of work, pretty effective against all comers because he has anti tank/elite infantry and anti horde settings on his weapons. Plus the 5+ inval save is full time not just against shooting

[@lukepoplawski3230]

IK/CK really need dedicated infantry. You can’t find a callidus or nurglings anywhere. IK should have cheap 10man units that are like fusiliers and steelhelms from AoS and CK should be able to run cultists.

[@simonbailey585]

There are house troops in the fluff, and I use Solar Auxila models as voidsmen to kind of represent them. I would love to see house troops, but with a limit on how they can be taken..so they can't be spammed. Otherwise that totally mitigates the inherent weakness of knights (board control), which they need to counter how tough they are when not facing spammed lethal hits.

[@vortex594]

If I wanted to play chaff I would be playing Guard, not Knights.

[@lukepoplawski3230]

@@simonbailey585 the inherent weakness of knights shouldn’t be that they can’t play the game. It should be that they are all vehicles and they consider from that. That’s why IK and CK aren’t really competitive armies. They really do need just an infantry unit. Who cares if CK can take 30 cultists? Just make them 110points per 10. Same with some type of consistent IK infantry. Knightly squires would make the factions worth playing outside of casual games.

[@simonbailey585]

@@lukepoplawski3230 I agree, I play knights, and we can play (ISH) the game. What I meant was, that out there in the 'hyper competitive' world of list building..the aim is often to min/max a faction and 'break' the game in your favour. Which leads to changes that effect all players at all levels, even if you aren't playing to maximise your ability to win at all costs (I am thinking dev wounds/ warden and it being smashed because of Eldar abuse of wraithknights). So I want troops, but with limits so it can't be abused and ruin it for other players.

[@luckmyst3r986]

All of them having Callidus Assassin while its OOP is just so sad to see. Really hope we get it in plastic soon.

[@davidcanty7903]

Callidus has become too ubiquitous. Nerf incoming

[@OGXenos]

There is not a single Chaos Knights player enjoying 10th right now. The only viable list is 90% War Dog spam, and War Dogs are so commonly sold out locally and online that they're fighting each other for them.

[@Typhoidpol]

Weeeeee, some love for the knights, you sir are my knight in shining armour, 😋👍

[@richarddixon1450]

As someone who as just started a chaos knights army. Very interested to see what's working.

[@ecozappy5669]

Could you remake your tier list for the knight units since the bondsman nerf and data slate changes. Canis Rex is prolly the best but I’m confused where the rest stand next to each other.

[@AngryAcolyte]

lol this is current

[@iosdrake3458]

Considering that GW seems to want IKs to have better titanics and chaos to have better armigers I don't have a problem with the spam. I think both should have their invuln work in both ranged and melee though.

[@henrychurch6062]

At this point it feels that the army is Armigers, and they plop in a titanic Knight for support, in the same way any other army might.

[@Resistantkillers]

Guess It’s time to dust of Canister Rex put him on board again 😂 had good couple game a week ago against marines took cerastus castigator and a lancer did well

[@lyleugleman3773]

I kinda hate how cost effective Canis Rex is. On one hand, it's nice having named characters be viable picks. On the other hand, I feel kind of stupid not taking Rex. So far I haven't taken him in my 10th games, but especially after the bondsman changes, it seems silly not to.

[@EdgarClay]

I have 1 castellan, 1 canis rex magnetized so he can be anything else, 1 knight Magaera. Various armigers forgeworld and gw. The inquisitorial henchmen is an spicy inclusion. I like allying guard or marines for light work.

[@davidewing4046]

Right now you aren't allowed to Ally guard or marines, just imperial agents. Guard or Marine armies are allowed to bring a big knight or 3 armigers, but not the other way around

[@EdgarClay]

Very sad*

[@davefogle7747]

big thing with the chaos Lancer is that it gives Asssault to the War dogs

[@zeroxexe111]

I wish they would sell the canis rex as a posable model kit of similar of smaller scale. I would love to pose it with MG gundams.

[@AmateurGameDeveloper]

Nurglings only give a debuff to melee attack. This is not at all so useful for Knights. Usually, they kill everything they come to. And if we are talking about knights who do not want to come to the enemy, then there are no Nurglings near them.

[@lassemelson5668]

the last thing nurglings are used for in ck armies are their debuff

[@captainchucklefuk7807]

I got my ass handed to me at adepticon by canis on Gws live stream

[@otisred7848]

For me to get my rampager, desecrator or abominant off the shelf they are going to need some better rules. The army and detachment rules are not enough. If they had the imperial knights rules then ya. A rampager with fnp or a desecrator with free re-rolls would make them far more effective.

[@simonbailey585]

Cool, what would you do about your wardogs to balance out the improved big knights? Don't get me wrong, it is a shame you feel that you can't run stuff you want to, but just curious as to how you would internally balance to make it a choice, and to differentiate between the Imp and Chaos armies 😊

[@tyrant-den884]

Dammit GW, make your giant knights good as well as cool! I am gunna play them anyway, but maybe if they aren't winning tournaments: you can knock down the points for Porphyrians, Abominants, and Asterius..es

[@malvatoss5840]

I really think that Imperial Knights were well balanced at the outset of 10th edition, but that other faction rules were poorly designed. Now that 10th is starting to slowly smooth out, I think pre-nerf knights would sit at a comfortable 50%+ winrate but not be too strong.

[@brotherhao4225]

A thousand sons' greatest fear is coming up against 4 armiger helverins.

[@micahsmith2066]

Wait, do these tournaments allow Forge World models?

[@koelkast9]

Really hope GW doesnt see this and reasons that the faction needs no changes

[@tdlainc.4737]

They need to redo Chaos daemon allies as you can only really choose Nurgle if you want to spam other units which is dumb.

[@Whizzbam]

Knight Power! Knight Power! Knight Power! Knight Power! Knight Power! Knight Power! Knight Power! Knight Power!

[@boionketamine6359]

How does canis rex have feel no pain its not written on the datasheet

[@Zombifikation86]

Detachment rule.

[@boionketamine6359]

@@Zombifikation86oh ok thx

[@wojdren5485]

We need more armigers

[@davidcanty7903]

Be careful what you wish for. You could end up like Chaos Knights and run nothing but.

[@wojdren5485]

@@davidcanty7903 yeah thats a valid point but still... I just really want Imperial slaughterclaw or armiger class gatling cannon. Autocannons dont do the job, for me at least

[@The_Blackshield]

I'll wait until they redo the models for no good reason, and then get the version after that.

[@jackofn0trades29]

HOUSE REDGOR WALKS!!!

[@andrewolsen9057]

26th

[@Waaagghhh]

CORRECTION: any Knight force with agents is not a Knight army but it’s either Imperium or Chaos 😂😂😂 If you want to be a REAL Knight player go pure! Just went 4 wins at 168 player GT with 2 Cersastus, 5 Glaives, 2 Helverian - round 6 lost by TWO POINTS to Grey Knight who went 13th to my 27th rank Imperial Knights! Doing it RIGHT! Bested Necron, Blood Angels, Eldar, Death Gaurd Lost to Necron (two huge stupid mistakes!) and then the GK which came down to me not making a 5++ with a reroll, and then not able to make one 6+ FNP

[@Damnedlegion40k]

Add a comment...😂

[@patrickfleps9365]

What i dont get, the wardog is better at everything then the armiger warglaive and cheaper. Who the heck thought thats fair?

[@lassemelson5668]

however ure big knights are way more durable and usable hows that fair?

[@patrickfleps9365]

@@lassemelson5668 Yeah they are so awesome, just look up the Winrates. Big knight wont win u anything after the overnerf.

[@patrickfleps9365]

@@lassemelson5668 I Trade my Big knights with better arminger within an Blink. After the overnerf they are just big Practise-Shooting-Targets. I agree CK big Knights need more love them IK, but IK are still not good.

[@lassemelson5668]

@@patrickfleps9365 i know boardpresence right?

[@jacob4life]

should be rule of 3 for war dogs/armigers

[@lassemelson5668]

sure thing give us a ton of small assistant infantry and ull get ur wish otherwise thats just a real dumb take

[@luske2]

I agree in principle, but sadly that would just punish the army at this point. People don't run many armigers to cheese the game, but to make a knight army competitively playable at all... Without them the army would likely rank much lower.

[@jacob4life]

Just saying wardog spam is toxic and broken

[@lassemelson5668]

@@jacob4life toxic mebbe broken definately not judging from win %

[@AngryPomeranian]

I hate wardogs and I hate forge world.

[@Dkatlima]

I really wonder when the knights codex comes around, what new unit are they gonna get? I really hope they add like 'household troops' since the knights are feudal houses. Unique to the knights, household guards get some bondsmen type of buff so they dont have to rely on allied units. But then runs the risk of losing the uniqueness? Hmmm

[@telelkhajiit7910]

Adding infantry kind of ruins the uniqueness of the faction. Basically making them guard with super sentinels. I think itd be better to add some of the support units mentioned in the novels. Cherub swarms, and sacristan repair walkers or crawlers. Cherub swarms would be especially fun. Especially considering the use if nurglings in CK lists.

[@Dkatlima]

@@telelkhajiit7910 i didnt realise that. Still new to Knight lore! That would be good!

[@telelkhajiit7910]

@@Dkatlima if you get the time check out knightsblade and kingsblade. A lot of knight lore people reference comes from those two books. Including the mighty Drop Keep. Which is a castle that deep strikes. Then deploys trumpets and banner waving cherubs.

[@Dkatlima]

@@telelkhajiit7910 thank you! I will check those titles out!

[@Dkatlima]

First! Knights is my 3rd army so looking forward to this!