Figure-8 table top brackets the RIGHT WAY

Why is there so much misinformation out there about this simple task?
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[@OzSafe1]

Finally, a straight forward understanding of exactly how these work. Thanks

[@williamshaffer2562]

I have used all the methods for securing table tops you have just described. I like the wood block method the best. In over 40 years of making furniture, this has served me the best. Thanks again James, another fine explanation of different techniques. Fine job.

[@rissejones6074]

Great video you are the Alton Brown of woodworking.

[@thomasgreen8532]

I am sitting at a desk right now that is at least 70 years old, I bought it nearly 40 years ago and it has been with me each time I moved, I am in a climate that is very arid now, but when I got it we were living in a much more Marine climate. It needed some attention when I first got it but frankly it has held up remarkably well. One of the nice features is the fact that it has figure 8 fasteners. in fact when I first got it, it was in a 3rd story bedroom, the thing is made out of solid Oak. it is super heavy and being able to take the top off afforded me to move it a lot more easily. Thank you for the information, I hope one day to put a new table top on it, and I want to make sure that I do not ruin the existing structure in the process.

[@HelloIamBen]

Thanks for the tip about installing the clips at an angle.

[@kenwood7395]

Just reached a point where I needed to understand how to use Figure 8 fasteners. Thank you.

[@sigogglin]

I need a picture of this workshop so I can use it as my zoom background!

[@frameriteairdrie578]

Maybe in his next video, he will duck under the table for a couple of seconds so we can screenshot it!

[@karinaphillip8185]

@@frameriteairdrie578 did you get it?

[@lucasrivera4046]

Just helped me a ton thank you👍

[@neilf4128]

I'm so glad your still on KZbin. I don't watch much of your videos, they often don't meet my intrest. But the few I do watch are always full of useful information and well thought out. Thank you and your dad, for the content you provide.

[@BubbasDad]

Excellent explanation. Many hobbyist wood workers, or first time wood workers who are making a one of a kind project, do not know any of this information and have a tendency to just "screw it together."

[@mike22315]

This was so timely; I'm going to build a cabinet and it mentions using figure-8 clips and I had no idea how to best install them - - now I do!

[@Michael-Makes-Stuff]

That’s why I paint all my projects. It hides the mistakes and seals the wood to prevent movement. 😁 Thanks for the video, James! Lots of good (and new to me) info in here. 👍🏼

[@howardbain6516]

Sorry, it slows down the wood movement. Wood will still move depending on the moisture content. That is the law

[@jumbocaso]

James, thanks you so much for this instruction. It hit the mark and answered my concerns with the figure “8” hardware for a solid cherry top on my kitchen island. Due to construction issues with built up door slides, I can only install the brackets lengthwise, I have experience with other methods of tabletop attachment for wood movement, but this seemed appropriate for this project and it is my first experience with these brackets. After analyzing how the top would expand and contract,I was ready to abandon this approach and try another method. Stumpy to the rescue to cut through all the nonsense and address the issue. Thank you, thank you.

[@terrmaso]

Always appreciate your videos and the way you break them down. I have seen others use the figure 8 fasteners, but not like you did. Thanks again for the great info. 👍

[@k.b.woodworker3250]

Great explanation! Another reason for installing the z-brackets or wood ones is that if someone lifts the table by the top, the figure-8s can pull out the screws.

[@gregl2249]

But the aprons can pull away from the z clips

[@barrykery1175]

I watched this just in time. Great video. Next week I am using the Z brackets to attach the top shelf. I did not realize I had to not insert them all of the way. ......and now I know. For the figure eight type brackets, I'd use a router instead of a forstner bit. I think it's much easier not to go too deep once the router bit height is set. Also, it's a lot easier to open the hole for the bracket. Thanks for posting. Barry

[@brentciesliga]

Building my first farmhouse style coffee table and this was exactly what I needed! Have seen your video's before and really appreciate the content! Just now subscribed. Thanks for the teaching and inspiration!

[@chinster1611]

I love your simple explanations covering many ways to do things. I am a amateur wood worker but love to learn.

[@philipteyssier]

This is great info! I see the figure eight brackets at the supply store, but had no idea how to use them! The manufacturer would sell more of them if people knew how to use them!

[@ibdavidc]

Great video, and I love both the explanation and the lack of flames in the comments.

[@independent900]

First of all, this is an excellent video and I thank you. I planned to look for vids today about attaching tops. When I opened YT, it was still on your channel's listing from yesterday's watching, so I figured I'd look at the list before doing my search about attaching tops. And voila, not only did you have a recent vid on the topic, but it's a highly informative one too. Awesome!

[@scottjewell2180]

Thank you for the advice, I am going to be using these on a Christmas gift I am making next week. As always your timing is fantastic.

[@aaronb6458]

Love the can koozie on the insulated cup!

[@danielhardy3379]

I'm currently in the middle of assembly and as a new carpenter realized that the joint on the top is much more important than emphasize in this video. I either need a biscuit jointer or route the edges. It would have been much easier if this was much more of an emphasized in the vid as a new carpenter. Thanks for the vid.

[@martincox7354]

Excellent explanation. Here in the UK, our climate is less extreme - changes in humidity through the seasons are much less than I read that you experience. However, good practice is always to allow a top to move if it needs to. Personally, I use the Festool domino to create the button slots and then make wooden buttons (exactly as you show) which allow for the movement. Before dominos, I would rout slots. All very easy and for the sake of a few minutes work, you have potentially saved an item that cost a lot to make (labour and materials) being ruined. So, whatever your method, equipment and ability, just do something.

[@woodworksbygrampies1284]

Hola! 🖐Another great video. I just jumped here from your most current video (Warped Wood - Myth Busted) Grammy and I are about to jump into building a dinner table. All of this information is so helpful and educational, rest assured that I will come back to "refresh" before we actually get going with the build. Thanks for this video. Take care and have a good one, Adios! 👊

[@johna.9742]

Thank you, you have verified that I have installed my figure eight brackets correctly. When you order these they do not come with any instruction as to how best install them.

[@evanbarnes9984]

I just make my own brackets out of 2"-ish wide, 1/8" thick aluminum flat bar. I make a shallow mortise for them to sit in the aprons, kind of like the figure 8 brackets, and screw them to the bottom of the tabletop with pan head screws. I just make oval slots in the aluminum to allow the screws to slide, and they work well! I also wax the brackets to help the screws slide easily. I originally did this because I made a triangular table with a solid wood top and needed a bracket solution that could allow for wood movement at a 45 degree angle to two of the aprons. I like it more than figure 8s because of the linear expansion slots, rather than relying on the rotation of a bracket, which can generate forces in other directions in the wood. I know figure 8s work, I just like over-engineering my things.

[@zapa1pnt]

All hail over engineering!!! 😀😁😍

[@tymacd1]

Perfect timing for finishing up a table. Thanks for the explanation as always!

[@islandcharlie7132]

Have a large cold one my friend, you deserve it.

[@HalProctor]

Thank You for to tutorial! i needed to be reminded of the wood's movement

[@Garryck-1]

Thanks! Wish I'd known this when I built a table for a friend..

[@jamartin1]

Turn on this video came just in time! Thanks!💜

[@9700am]

Very good explanation James. Your tutorials are expanding my, and probably other guys knowledge, every time you post one. Keep em coming and stay safe. 🇬🇧

[@gordroberts53]

Hi James. Have been looking for a new use for the biscuit joiner since I switched to dowels. Creating slots for the Z clips is perfect. I have a couple projects coming up to give this a try, it seems both simpler and more effective than the figure 8. Thanks always for sharing, best source of factual woodworking information on the net IMHO. Cheers from BC!

[@bobd5119]

I learned plenty from this video. I didn't know those figure-eight doolies existed.

[@CardenBayCo]

Thanks Stumpy! A perfect explanation as always. Great video with great animations.

[@olddawgdreaming5715]

👍👍👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Thanks James for the excellent information and demonstration.

[@larrybriggi9898]

Another informative and well thought out video. Thanks.

[@heavenboundx9232]

What other brackets and trickets of the sorts am i missing out on or using wrong?? Love ur vids as always look forward to more

[@W4TRI_Ronny]

Good part is now I just have to remove material around the apron board. I used these on two coffee tables and they work well. Thanks very much!

[@truth6733]

Love the insulated cup insulator! And, thank you for spreading the word on an seemingly unknown, misunderstood and/or common sense topic. Challenge: Find out WHO began the claim that these "brackets" should not be used. Rabbit hole. ie,; Hemp vs Lumber Indust. Cheers.

[@sawdustandsurvival]

Also just found a great new use for my biscuit jointer 😁

[@banjerlegs3051]

Seriously, where do you learn this stuff at?? I didn’t know any of this! Thank you for all ur info, you should go on Jeopardy!!

[@gokblok]

I'll take Finishing Myths for 600

[@MrMarkpeggy]

Thanks for the great video James! I have never built a table, but I hope to some day.

[@738polarbear]

What about a crosswise ledger under the table top boards and then screw thw ledgers to the aprons.With loose fit dados.Excellent explanation James.You never fail I'm glad to say.Those little 45 deg champfers make total sense .

[@VaracolacidVesci]

very informative video. i like the clear and extended explanation. Amazing content man. Thank you!

[@aulii11]

Great information. I've messed up more than one table top by not understanding how wood works!

[@traillesstravelled7901]

Thanks, I don't think I've ever thought about this as detailed, learned a new trick!👍🤙

[@jamesmaybury7452]

The idea that you angle the brackets parallel with the grain is cute. Although this ‘solves’ the problem of them allowing contraction it will ‘pull’ on the brackets at ends perpendicular to the grain. I think the reality is that wood is quite flexible and shrinkage is small. The side rails will bend a little, the screws will move in the hole, the screws will move compared to the bracket, etc. In reality you only need a few mm, and you easily have that in most situations. Good thinking here but there is nothing much to be worried about anyway.

[@alexvonbosse5090]

Excellent advise! Thank you for sharing and keep up your great work!

[@Carp4125]

Another great informational video

[@wolfman75]

Thank You For The Info!!!! Great Video!!!👍😎

[@SuperiorEtchworx]

I love that bedside table. You can put the baby in there when you are drunk and be sure it won't crawl away

[@paulstuard7988]

Now that's funny right there

[@zapa1pnt]

🤣🤣🤣🤣 I, first, thought of the cat, so it wouldn't jump on your face, in the morning. But yeah, that works to.

[@slowguy56]

It also works when the baby is drunk. . . so he doesn't jump on your face.

[@daveturnbull7221]

Has to be comment of the month 🤣

[@mesanders1113]

Also works for toddler time out

[@c0mmand0brand0]

What method would you suggest using for attaching the two halves of a top of an extension/leaf table?

[@scrappy93]

Great video

[@jameswagandt8718]

Built a walnut table top secured by a dovetail cleat and sure enough the cleat is now a quarter inch proud of the table top. Wood was from a local sawyer so probably wasn’t as seasoned as kd

[@BRICOLAJELISTO]

Buen video muy instructivo y interesante muy buenos tips enhorabuena. Un saludo.

[@TheTranq]

Great tips. Thanks!

[@dennisbielinski3611]

Good lesson

[@MCsCreations]

Really interesting! Thanks a lot, dude! 😊 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@joeyleerobbins]

Awesome info thank you!!!!

[@tugnut1]

Great info.

[@gilbertomanzanilla4333]

Reliable information👍

[@mattbowers5342]

Another great video!

[@mattski1979]

Dude, whoever installed the cabinets in this house installed the drawer faces with these. 7-1/2 years of my niece yanking on them and slamming them closed has led to most of the faces coming loose or completely off. It's cool. Really really really really never saw drawer fronts installed this way. Usually a bolt that goes through the drawer and face frame to the knob. I don't know why I'm typing anything. Thought I'd make you laugh.

[@mururoa7024]

Ooh! Taking on the number eight, huh? Brave! 😁👍 Was that a baby cage under the table? Looks useful.

[@independent900]

Looked like a great place for a puppy/kitty bed to me:-)

[@mururoa7024]

@@independent900 I couldn't have pets so I had children. 😉

[@arcuscerebellumus8797]

Am I right to assume that by that logic you should also avoid fastening across grain altogether, because as those washers rotate they will also cause the top to move along its grain, thus ripping cross-grain connections apart?

[@mattski1979]

Great video. I had a question regarding use in cheap cabinetry. The drawer fronts on all of my kitchen cabinets are attached with figure 8s. Due to constant use and overuse by my now 7 year old niece, so that's 6 years of growing up and pulling on them has resulted in a number the drawer fronts coming off. The fronts are a Maple frame with very cheap maple faced plywood panel in between. What is a good method for reattachment. It just seems like a poor connection for drawer fronts. I can send pictures. Thank you for anything you can tell me. Thank you for reading.

[@billj5645]

I've seen various types of these brackets used to fasten tops, I've always wondered if you do this, can the average owner pick up the furniture to move it by only holding onto the top, and not have the screws pull out or the wooden brackets break?

[@StumpyNubs]

If it's a solid wood top (these brackets are really only intended for solid wood because plywood does not move like solid wood will) the brackets should hold just fine, assuming enough were used.

[@mariushegli]

I have nothing to say really, but I appreciate your content, and wish to help with the yt-algorithms.

[@drodver]

For the ones in line with grain direction do you need to angle the brackets the same way? If you don't can't the brackets get pulled away from each other? After all the screws are a fixed distance away from each other

[@pauldershem]

Don't forget to calculate anticipated wood movement relative to the wood's dimensions and the way it was sawn (plain, rift, quarter). In this way, you can assure that the fasteners you are installing will actually be able to accommodate anticipated movement as the seasons change.

[@williamellis8993]

Great info, James. Have you seen or used Izzy table top washers?

[@weldabar]

Funny, while watching the video I asked myself why not just create a figure-8 bracket with a slot in it? I'd never heard of Izzy's washers. I looked, and that's exactly what he did. Good for Izzy.

[@zapa1pnt]

Remember, Izzy Washers will only work when installed in-line with wood movement (across the grain).

[@weldabar]

@@zapa1pnt That's just not true. They swivel in one direction and have the slot in the other.

[@zapa1pnt]

@@weldabar: My apologies, you are correct. I was still half asleep, at Noon. Immediately upon seeing your reply , I knew I was wrong. I'm glad you corrected me. Yes, Izzsy'z is a good idea.

[@ArtByKevinZapata]

Any advice if my table top is not anywhere near flush with the base currently I am unable to use any of the fasteners because it is not flush any other hacks of attaching it?

[@SenselessUsername]

Looking at it, the "parallel apron"-8s seem bad because a small movement in the desired direction requires a big movement in the undesired direction (but vice versa on the other aprons which is good)? On "parallel" it's changes in Sine(x) vs. Cosine(x) for x near zero.

[@spencerbass7142]

Excellent.

[@panosbaklezos5777]

Hi Stumpy Nubs, this is a very helpful video. Still will I have the same type of problem if the table top is made of plywood? I mean can I just glue and nail it to its base or I will have problems in the future with expansions and contractons due to weather conditions?

[@Franco.Ar.]

Thanks for another great video! How can I estimate the required expansión room that my wood will need?

[@TaySC1969]

Do S style brackets work for attaching a table top? Similar to the Z style, but with an oblong hole that you could screw to the bottom of the table top?

[@gilad_paz]

Question: wood movement will be in the lateral direction. But the brackets, even when installed in the front and back aprons, will always move both laterally but also a little in the other lengthwise direction. That is because the screw that will be connected to the tabletop through the bracket, will be following a circular motion as it turns around the screw that is connected to the apron. But the tabletop can not adjust for this lengthwise part of the motion so it will crack. Isn’t this a problem for these brackets?

[@StumpyNubs]

The "circular" movement is not nearly as great as you think :)

[@johnmutton799]

People use screws with thread right to the head of the screw. Use the right screw. With a flat at the top of the screw. Cabinet screws.

[@j.wilson641]

Good info!

[@im4dabirds]

brilliant

[@sawdustandsurvival]

That's such a good idea! I always thought these type of fastener were a cheap flat-pack type item. Never thought there would be a legit reason.

[@walterrider9600]

thank you

[@tommycristaldi9037]

Awesome.

[@searchmanager9372]

Rest tips thank you

[@MorrMedia1]

Great video. What do you recommend for a table top that has a mitered border around a middle section? So in other words, the top’s border has grain pointing in two directions. Would I cant ALL the figure 8 fasteners around the whole top (what you show at 3:50) to allow movement in both directions, or should I just default to the grain direction of the center part?

[@jackthompson8019]

I have always attached table tops with screws through slots in the apron. No one has ever said that the top has cracked.

[@JDeWittDIY]

Allow for the movement and you're golden!

[@simonmetz8587]

Forgot to mention I am going to order CBN wheels but there doesn’t seem to be am affiliate link in the woodturners link, it just goes to home oage

[@StumpyNubs]

I don't have an affiliate link, but they are a sponsor. Thanks for the support!

[@Food-Fire-and-Featherboards]

I have used those z-brackets a few times and they seem to work great. In fact, I am installing an edge-grain top (walnut) and am using them again. But is any allowance for movement necessary with an edge-grain table top since any movement would be along the grain? (Can't hurt I guess, hence planning to allow for some movement anyway. But it would be the thickness, not the width or length of the top, that would experience any movement, no?)

[@CurlyTop1492]

With the z clip method, wouldn't the top be able to move a little since the brackets are backed out a little bit and the other brackets have room to move side to side?

[@StumpyNubs]

Technically, the top can move a little with any of these. But it won't move enough to notice.

[@BCB458]

Hi Stumpy. Tried to subscribe to your e-magazine. Kept getting this error message... As of 1st April 2020 we are not processing form submissions without recaptchaV2. No option for recaptchaV2. How can I subscribe? Thank you.

[@arrowdriver]

I’ve tried signing up but nothing works.

[@navret1707]

Stumpy, From your explanation I understand the whys of wood movement. How much movement are we talking about? Are we talking a couple of 1/16ths or an inch or so? It seems that that measurement would drive how much slack to leave in the brackets.

[@StumpyNubs]

A lot of factors can contribute. But in most cases we are talking about less than 1/8-inch unless the top is very wide.

[@xoxo2008oxox]

Can be 1/8" on each side, or 1/4" depending on the wood, its amount of moisture/humidity change and grain cut. A kiln-dried quarter-sawn board won't have as much movement as a flat sawn board. Engineered wood like plywood, will be even more stable. That is why most tables are veneered tops. But I like the 8 connect as you can leave it at canter or go old fashioned with wood blocks and offset holes for expansion. So many options. Thanks Stumpy!

[@robt2151]

The upper floor of my garage was laid with air-dried pine, reasonably fresh (the only planks available here). They shrank by about 5% widthwise after a year being in a dry but unheated building. The same material used in an outdoor deck shrank by 10% widthwise but not at all lengthwise.

[@edhalson3154]

Great tutorial....thanks. AND....75 likes and no negative twits yet...legend!

[@SHan-vv1cn]

Why then when combining two board to make a wider top ~ dowels and other methods along with glue is used? In addition what about the rest of a table such as the skirts and other framing? Seen a bunch of glue ups and or screws not giving expansion. Anyone may answer me, just wondering why only table top most people focus on for expansion and contraction?

[@SeaShanty2016]

I understand the concept regarding wood swelling when moisture content increases and contract when moisture content reduces. However, if I seal the wood to make it waterproof then surely the moisture content within the wood will remain constant and eliminate wood movement?

[@StumpyNubs]

unless you encase the board in thick resin, you are not going to seal it completely.

[@SeaShanty2016]

@@StumpyNubs thanks, love your videos

[@SamSelim]

So if I use an MDF tabletop on a softwood apron I don’t need to worry about this? Since there mdf won’t expand I assume?

[@StumpyNubs]

No

[@SamSelim]

@@StumpyNubs thanks!