Suburbanites Will Flock to This 15 Minute City and Like It

[@CityNerd]

Just so you know -- this video was up SIX days early on Nebula, AND without ads. $2.50 a month if you sign up for a year with my link! Best $2.50 you'll spend this month. go.nebula.tv/citynerd Nutso lifetime deal still available too -- go.nebula.tv/lifetime?ref=citynerd

[@colormedubious4747]

There's a much better "15-minute city" surrogate that attracts MANY more people than Sunriver (I've mentioned it before and will keep doing so until you go there to make a video), and that is the "string of pearls" that is the many New Urban villages along Scenic County Highway 30A in south Walton County on Florida's Emerald Coast (a.k.a. the "Redneck Riviera"). These are well-designed walkable/bikeable communities with a variety of housing and vacation rental types, a properly proportioned mix of uses, excellent restaurants, beautiful beaches, and a 19-mile paved bicycle path next to 30A as well as a number of bicycle paths in the nearby state forest. Many of the larger resorts rent out bikes, and there are even a couple of golf courses within a short drive (no pun intended). Seasonal arts & crafts festivals and music festivals abound and there are as many outdoor activities as you can handle year-round. It's easy to miss as it's wedged between the chaos and tourist traps of Destin and Panama City Beach. Be advised that lodging along 30A is NOT cheap so the best time to visit is one of the shoulder seasons.

[@RizzyGyatt]

OR I could watch for FREE on youtube with ADBLOCK lololol

[@AMPProf]

In all reality, if we take Disney theme parks and integrate our existence into them

[@JB-1138]

Have you ever done a video or visited Bentonville, Arkansas?

[@CopperScott]

I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about suburban Long Island. It's where the modern suburb was born, and that is baked into the skeleton of the island at this point.

[@EarlGamer]

I grew up in Sunriver. One thing visitors don't grasp is the fact that operating a destination resort takes a lot of people who can only afford to live farther away from their workplace. And, as bikeable as Sunriver is, there is no dedicated bike path to the surrounding communities where employees live, and the bus system is virtually nonexistent. People also live farther away from grocery stores because they have been priced out of the cities. Consequently, everyone who lives there drives to and from work and . This fifteen minute city rests on a mountain of lower income people who drive there from dozens of miles away. Plus, the destination resorts have an outsized influence on local politics. Actually, that's an understatement. In Sunriver and other resorts which aren't in incorporated cities, the local governing body IS the HOA. The existence of Sunriver and other resort communities comes at a cost most visitors never even consider.

[@kailahmann1823]

This is truly American planning :) …there is a place filled with tourists on bicycles. And tourists on bicycles do day-trips, so you would expect every place within reasonable distance (with e-bikes probably 20 miles) would beg to have the best bike infrastructure possible to get there.

[@SwiftySanders]

This is something people should want for themselves especially financially strapped people. Not sure why people arent advocating for this in their own hoods…actually I do know its hard to advocate when you are lower or middle income.

[@dylancolon5871]

Yet another example of walkable urbanism for the rich and car-dependent sprawl for the poor.

[@brianjonker510]

It would be simple for the company to have a bus route thru the local communities.

[@mrvwbug4423]

@@kailahmann1823 There's nothing outside of Sunriver other than forest service land, though it does connect to the forest service trails if you're willing to trade a commuter e-bike for a mountain bike or pair of hiking boots. You can actually mountain bike from Sunriver all the way to Bend and Mt Bachelor on forest service trails.

[@blarneystone38]

One uncomfortable takeaway that could be made here is that many suburbanites are much more open to the car-free aspects of urbanism than they are to aspects such as density and socioeconomic diversity. They're happy to ditch the car for a bike if they're in a place with very low density and (presumably) a high-income population. It could be that the biggest challenge urbanists face is not getting people onto bikes, but getting them to live in proximity to people who make less money than they do.

[@trevorw1005]

Salient point, comrade. Classism is nucking futs for standing in the way of a more wholesome lifestyle.

[@matthays9497]

True, though they often vacation in dense foreign or US cities and love them. ("Only to visit" they might say)

[@colinneagle4495]

Wow, what a grim but accurate observation. A while ago I saw a study of countries with high taxes and robust social safety nets, where the citizenry of those places widely supported paying taxes to help the greater community. According to the study, support for those taxpayer funded social programs would drop in proportion to how diverse the country became. In essence, things that are good for community are popular only for as long as the benefits go to people just like them.

[@DiscoingGD1989]

As someone who's poor, I just want to say that some of us simply don't like density. I wait until off-peak hours to walk around my poor neighborhood, though I'll admit I sometimes drive 10 minutes to the new, rich neighborhood with the multi-use trails all throughout, and the nice park, and it looks/smells nicer, and so do the people... lol On topic though, at least where I am, we all hate new development because it's not a city with a decent public transport or anywhere where it could integrate nicely; It's a crowded suburban sprawl. Roads are already crowded, every person moving in will have a car that wasn't there before, there doesn't seem to be a good way to manage the extra burden, not to mention the burden on utilities and flood concerns as we build over wetlands, etc. It's not because we hate any one person or social class. I do think an entirely new city/town, properly planned, could achieve high density without feeling like it. Better designs and use of space, plus a few wilderness areas, and I'll bet you could get city level density to feel like Sunriver.

[@mena376]

Americans like car-free environments so long as there aren't any POoR PeOpLe in them.

[@whimsicalhamster88]

Americans like to vacation in places where they can walk or bike everywhere and then get home from vacation and make angry phone calls to their city council for allowing a multi-use apartment building to be built in view of their suburban castle.

[@tann_man]

American boomers*

[@sea80vicvan]

And American Gen X increasingly.

[@whimsicalhamster88]

@@tann_man Google “Steph Curry affordable housing” It’s not just boomers

[@Poorgeniu5]

They probably have an strong belief that bicycles are toys.

[@AndyInTheFort]

@@sea80vicvan And millenials in my town.

[@carkoth1722]

Your description of the stress leaving your body upon entering the Ponderosa-zone is on point. It truly is a beautiful part of Oregon

[@ashwindatta1328]

My suburbanite parents go here almost every year (they are going on Monday LOL) and they drive pretty much everywhere in Sunriver itself, which makes it make even less sense to me

[@GirtonOramsay]

Can you rent golf carts there at least?

[@ashwindatta1328]

@@GirtonOramsay i think only at/by the golf courses, across the actual town it is either bike, walk or drive (there are a couple shuttles and buses too)

[@bartmannn6717]

Tell 'em you found an awesome informative video on KZbin about it! :D

[@alexrogers777]

Have you ever considered going deep into the forest and leaving them there?

[@CityNerd]

I mean it's possible to do that but what's the point

[@POINTS2]

Amazing how awesome suburbs can be without car traffic and with stores / restaurants within walking and biking distance

[@FullLengthInterstates]

Most suburbs have stores and schools within biking distance. The only barrier is infrastructure (or cultural/ risk tolerance). There are higher rates of people biking on the streets where demographics are younger and less wealthy. If we handed out $2000 bikes and mobility scooters instead of $2000 stimulus checks, suburbs once thought to be unbikeable would be filled with bikes simply due to the momentum of mode shift.

[@MrKoalaburger]

Echoing what was sad above. All my daily needs are less than 3mi away in my suburban area. But there's no sidewalk or bike lane, and some parts along the way no shoulder on the road. Combined with everyone driving with a dangerously murderous level of entitlement, it's too big a risk to bike anywhere here.

[@charliesullivan4304]

I agree that it's not all about density. Design for accessibility by bike/walk/transit doesn't actually require density as high aa some people think.

[@scruf153]

small towns /cities are better without private cars everything is close by why use a 60k car to go 2 miles

[@paulblichmann2791]

It is if you want a lot of stuff. Short distances without density= very little stuff. And some might like it that way...they'll have to prevent others moving there tho.

[@tonywalters7298]

You can have incredibly dense places that are quite car centric, like Dubai, for example.

[@charliesullivan4304]

@@tonywalters7298 and even in places like NYC where driving is a minority mode share, the urban design still gives precedence to car, degrading the quality of life for everyone across many dimensions.

[@Meyers1793]

This level of density works best at a small scale, like a resort for 2,000 people, but it doesn't scale up well. Doubling or tripling the population while maintaining the same density makes services and utilities more inefficient and costly (this is a true of low density suburbs generally). In 2020, Sunriver had a census population density of ~228/sq mi (~88 per km sq). You could increase the density by 10X and still have a nice car-free sustainable community.

[@maumor2]

This reminds me of Sanibel Florida a barrier island with a very solid system of multi-use paths where you see tourists renting a bike for their stay but at the same time complaining that the traffic in their cities "is insanely bad because they are way too many cars"

[@ZoraDelaney]

Yet somehow not including THEMSELVES as part of the traffic (if they own a car)......

[@ecurewitz]

Or Provincetown MA, very bike friendly, and everything is close

[@m8852]

I was just wondering if there are any beach towns with something like this. Thank you for mentioning Sanibel! I'm going to check it out.

[@CityNerd]

Ha, I went to Sanibel a couple years ago and I though of exactly this

[@josephfisher426]

@@m8852 Hilton Head is too. But again, is inherently touristy, not reality.

[@everydaycarrytools]

This timing is funny. We live in Bend, and ride our bikes down to sun river frequently. I always complain that it’s boring, and my wife counters that it literally has all the nice urbanism features I complain about other places not having.

[@ThreeRunHomer]

It’s commendable that there’s a good bike trail between Bend and SunRiver.

[@brettyost6426]

@@ThreeRunHomer There has been one in the works for 10 years but it is not built yet.

[@brettyost6426]

Sunriver IS boring! Urbanism includes dynamic creative people - not just wealthy people doing potted vacation activities

[@ThreeRunHomer]

@@brettyost6426 the Deschutes River Trail exists now. 👍

[@shantiescovedo4361]

I just spent a week there. It was a good choice because we could fit our whole extended family into one rental house, but I don’t want to go back. It is boring because of the sameness. What he says about the video game map and the ubiquitous beige means that no matter how far you bike within the complex, there is no element of surprise.

[@dcruz233]

7:45 is an incredible example of how few parking spaces it takes to house a hundred bikes.

[@AveryHardmann]

"Sunriver... It's like an enchantment... where... the stress just starts leaving my body" - CityNerd (from an embedded Sunriver Tourism Board ad tomorrow)

[@cushmanproductions]

One major way you can tell it's more on the vacation side of the spectrum and not the walkable urbanist side is that the only way to get there is by car or private plane; seemingly no public transit access.

[@enjoystraveling]

One of the comments wrote Amtrak goes there.

[@EarlGamer]

@@enjoystraveling An Amtrak shuttle bus goes there only to transport people to and from the train platform (it's not even a station) an hour away in Chemult.

[@willythemailboy2]

The people who go there know damn well that it's the sort of place that is inherently unsustainable. It's probably like all the ski resort towns, where the staff needed to run them can't possibly afford to live in them and instead live in closet sized "apartments" an hour away. It's a place that survives entirely on outside money being shoveled into the economy by tourists rather than a place that most people can afford to live and work.

[@aaronginsberg4993]

City Nerd "What I did on my summer vacation" video. I respect it. Video idea since you're a former competitive golfer: pros and cons of municipally owned golf courses.

[@joseenoel8093]

I don't golf but have lived right next to them past 43 yrs, that's on the Island of Montreal here, highly suggested!

[@andrewdiamond2697]

Ray used to routinely bash golf courses in his early videos. I was curious why he hated golf. Now, I've realized he hates public land uses that are inefficient and benefit relatively few citizens.

[@yuriydee]

@@andrewdiamond2697 You can still have reasonably priced golf courses. My county owns one in NJ and for residents they charge like $35 to gold plus $20 for cart rental. It isnt too bad compared to what ive heard about the prices at the fancy golf courses.

[@MattBrubeck]

It’s not exactly the same as your suggestion, but here are the videos he did on urban golf courses: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epnOaIxsg9V9b68 and kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2qsZIald9drqdU

[@CityNerd]

Oh man I don't know if I can do any more golf videos

[@jfrrodway8235]

It is worth noting that Sunriver was designed in the 1960s.

[@CityNerd]

It's definitely been copied by resorts that came much later though, like Eagle Crest

[@BenEricson]

@@CityNerd Or "Suncadia" in Washington.

[@DavidHerron]

This reminds me of a housing development -- Village Homes, in Davis CA. I wonder if you've looked at it? Village Homes is similar to this, but it's the regular place to live rather than a vacation spot. It was designed in the 70s IIRC. The street system was designed for the business of getting cars to houses, bringing refuse trucks around to take trash away, and the like. Unlike regular suburbia where the street-side of a home is a big yard, in Village Homes the streets are like old school alleys. The non-street side of the homes is what faces into a large yard, as well as common space running between the homes. The common space is jointly managed by the residents and features lots of fruit trees and interesting plants. This makes the common area into a multi-use walking/biking area. I got to visit it for one day and it was very very interesting, very attractive idea.

[@davidacoker]

Reston, VA is community that folks actually live in. It is a planned community based on the Garden City movement. It has an extensive path/trail system, has a number of planned community "centers" that feature high density living, shopping, and even retirement living. We lived there for a few years and took full advantage of the walk ability and interconnected nature of the community. In addition, there's a decent bus system that ties into the DC Metro Silver Line.

[@neil454]

Yep, Columbia, MD is very similar

[@sharpelbows]

Over 55 miles of trails!

[@mattl6948]

This reminds me of Breckenridge, CO and their bike & Ped trails and FREE high-frequency bus system.

[@deboeraaron]

One thing i notice here, and have seen in other place that have this feel, is that the main road goes BY the town, not THROUGH the town. So many towns in the country areas and mountains are dominated by the main highway blasting through the city center.

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

Another prime example of this is Mackinac Island, Michigan

[@minnybiker4505]

Thanks to your channel, I've gotten a basket for my bicycle, and am starting to open up to using my bicycle to run errands instead of car or motorcycle. On Sunday, I rode 8+ miles each way to go watch my niece play Lacrosse. Baby steps!

[@J-Bahn]

What a coincidence, I am working on my own video on a 15 minute suburb: Somerville NJ hourly regional train and bus service 7 days a week / 365 days a year. Grid neighborhoods with dense walkable housing, sidewalks everywhere, basically no stroads in the town itself (on the periphery is a different story). Get around town to everything you need on a bike in 15 minutes: Main Street with all sorts of resteraunts of all types (japenese hibatchi anyone?) and shops (comic book, antique, laundromat, furniture) along with a pedestrianized street with an arcade that has all the pinball machines you could dream of (including A sopranos themed one). New high density development (4 over 1) has recently gone up around the train station and downtown. Grocery store with anything you need downtown. All schools within walking biking distance. Mall (with a cheesecake factory) that you can access across a highway either on transit or by bike on a ped bridge that has bikeable ramp approaches. Linear park along a brook that sort of connects the entire town.

[@blarneystone38]

Somerville is a great town! NJ has a lot of really nice streetcar suburbs that are still served by NJ Transit today.

[@the.abhiram.r]

wow i live 20 minutes from somerville and never realized that it used to be a streetcar suburb

[@colinneagle4495]

Around here it's important to highlight the presence of a Cheesecake Factory!

[@J-Bahn]

@@colinneagle4495 Of course. That’s why I mentioned it.

[@J-Bahn]

@@the.abhiram.r don’t know if it ever had streetcars but it’s a railroad suburb for sure. That’s cool you’re relatively close to Somerville; I am too!

[@kevinfalconett8012]

Is this an ad? Because now I want to go here! Great video, as always

[@blores95]

I was thinking this sounds like a weird CityNerd destination vacation ad lol I've always wanted to visit Portland but maybe this will be the list of a more relaxing place to visit in Oregon one day.

[@martinlisk9913]

It's that cool, I grew up there

[@CalebThomasMedia]

Right? I literally used to work in Central Oregon’s Tourism marketing bureau and I think this was better than any as we made 😅

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

I'd rather go to Mackinac Island but this looks beautiful

[@shantiescovedo4361]

The Bend area is beautiful and Sunriver is a convenient place to stay, but you will be disappointed if you like real urban environments.

[@keriezy]

FYI, the schools in Tualatin are alright. I about choked on my coffee with that aerial shot of my hometown. And yes, Sunriver is amazing.

[@kylerinker2671]

Tualatin mentioned wooo hooo

[@RBzee112]

Hey CN! Can you do video on what happened to property values in communities that did allow density projects to get built?

[@CityNerd]

I might --- I feel like I need super recent data for this because things change fast! Thanks.

[@WolfSeril107]

Man, I must have been at the wrong Sunriver. When I went, there was a constant stream of traffic on all the roads at all times. The roundabouts were a nightmare that none of the tourists (including the drivers in my family) seemed to be able to figure out. The bike network is certainly great, but a small handful of shops and restaurants is not enough to keep me in Sunriver for a week. All the cool stuff in the area requires getting on the highway. I loved the nature there but it seemed just as car centric as anywhere else I've been.

[@ashleyhamman]

The mention of the smell while showing footage of biking between the trees takes me back to when my parents owned a place in the Sierras. Our trees were mainly redwood, pine, and occasionally something along the lines of manzanita, and the first breath getting up there was always quite the experience... I need to go up that way more often. Regarding the vaction-resort type land use, a significant portion of my childhood was in a golf community where most people were retirees. Sure, you needed to use a car to go anywhere outside the community, but inside, you could very reasonably do all your trips by bike and depending on location even by walking, due to the sheer abundance of golf-cart trails and normalization of non-golfers using them. The fact that such a place is notable with a certain amount of prestige speaks strongly to people's openness to a different form of mobility, so long as you wealth-code it.

[@FortTheMighty]

started my first transit planning internship yesterday at 26 so this week's video is more exciting than usual!! thank you for contributing to and encouraging my long-dormant transit obsession so i could finally get here :)

[@blores95]

This video kinda exemplifies my complaint about US urbanism, that basically to live anywhere that's walkable and possibly not need to own a car, you need to live in a city. I don't think I'd necessarily want to live a pseduo-resort town even to retire, but I'd like to be able to (easily) live without a car for the most part while still having a lot of nature around and not have light pollution for miles. Reinvigorating cities seems hard enough around the country and is on the time scale of decades probably, but creating quaint, urban villages you'd find in Europe or Japan doesn't even seem to be on the radar of possibility.

[@tann_man]

That's because they're for all intents and purposes illegal.

[@ThreeRunHomer]

@@tann_man that’s not really true. Planned Unit Developments are included in lots of zoning regulations across the nation.

[@colormedubious4747]

Well, THAT certainly explains the hundred or so New Urbanist communities that already exist in the United States as well as the 600 or so that are currently planned or actually under construction, Mr. "Doesn't even seem to be on the radar of possibility." Do you even READ, Bro? 🤣

[@stevengordon3271]

Does anybody live in Sunriver year-around? Is it even feasible?

[@EarlGamer]

@@stevengordon3271 I grew up there. It's weird living in a place that feels empty for weeks-long stretches throughout the year. And it's not cheap, or feasible to be car-free. The nearest real grocery store is a 25+ minute drive away. Also, very few kids live in Sunriver proper. However, the surrounding communities are populated year round and the K-8 school just south of the resort is alright.

[@kailahmann1823]

The numbered roundabouts remind me of the Dutch "fietsknoop" system, which also uses important intersections as a part of the wayfinding system.

[@AveryHardmann]

Thanks for the video!!

[@CityNerd]

You got it!

[@jinjo2200]

Hey, I used to grow up around this area! This video brought back some memories I have of Sunriver (especially the shakespeare performances my friends had at the SHARC), but I never really got to experience this place like all the vacationers do. This place always seemed alien to me, not because of the points made in this video, but because of how everything was way outside of the budget of myself and everyone who lived near me. Most of my neighbors would commute many miles to this place in service of people who go there from out of town. While I do admit this place was pretty cool in some ways, it just never seemed obtainable unless you worked there, at least from the community I was from. If only this urbanism spilled out to the other surrounding areas of central Oregon, then that would be a different story.

[@jonathanhardy7780]

Grew up traveling from the Portland area to Sunriver. No matter the number of times I’ve visited, I still get so excited when driving in for the first time each trip.

[@jazzfan7491]

I think it was in one of your videos that I heard you say that one's time in college might be the last time one lives in a walkable place. That comment made me think a lot. I have come to the conclusion that what you so insightfully observed is one of the reasons most people -- most of those who get to "go away" to college and live there, that is -- think fondly of the their college years as a special time.

[@willythemailboy2]

It's similar to a resort town like this, where the lifestyle and infrastructure are utterly dependent on vast quantities of money being spent there by people who don't permanently live there. The people who run the resort or college also don't live - and likely can't afford to live - anywhere near their place of work. Ski resort towns tend to have dedicated employee shuttle buses bringing employees in from up to an hour away, because land values in the resort area itself is far too expensive for those people to live near where they work.

[@anderswennstig5476]

AH THIS IS SO SURREAL as a long time channel viewer and a member of a *mostly* suburban family who has been on many many family vacations to Sunriver from Seattle. My whole family loves Sunriver and the biking is no small part of that. My family also happens to be Swedish so we love quiet vacations in nature with good food and fun biking and other recreation which is exactly what Sunriver is. Family members from all walks of life enjoy the biking and it’s because it makes it so easy and safe to bike everywhere! Just makes it so clear that biking would be the optimal choice for a lot of people if it was as easy and safe as it is in Sunriver. Thanks for covering this CityNerd. I actually think I may have suggested this topic but I don’t mind you stealing it 😂

[@PatrickDerocher]

Similar energy in Galena, IL. Routinely filled with Midwestern suburban tourists (especially from Iowa and Chicagoland), and a walkable downtown corridor filled with legitimately great shopping, dining, and drinking options. Then everyone gets in their cars and back on US 20.

[@mrvwbug4423]

It also conveniently connects to the forest service trail system in the area, so if you're willing to trade the commuter bike for a mountain bike you can basically bike all the way to Mt Bachelor without touching a road, or pavement once you're out of Sunriver.

[@Affalterbach1967]

The isolation and self-containedness of destination cities are very important. No room for NIMBYs.

[@hWat-Ever]

If you don't want NIMBYs in your back yard doesn't that make you a text book NIMBY?

[@room34]

@@hWat-Ever Google "paradox of tolerance".

[@Arithryka]

@@hWat-Ever """so much for the tolerant left!"""

[@Senthiuz]

If a place is literally being run by an HOA, I would not call that free of NIMBYism. Their police department spent 15 years reporting directly to the HOA.

[@EarlGamer]

What do you mean? Sunriver is the NIMBY's wet dream.

[@Electrify85]

Went to a Mexican resort for the first time this past winter. Entire place was walkable and had a shuttle system with its own transit map. It was also very difficult to leave the resort property unless you were in a taxi, possibly for the safety of the guests. And yes, I did make the connection that this was very much like the "15 minute cities" so many supposedly detest.

[@2mains234]

It did surprise me a bit when I started watching this video that youse have something akin to Center Parcs in America. It's not exactly the same but a resort where folk cycle everywhere, it is an interesting comparison to the half-hearted attempts at cycling infrastructure where we spend the majority of our time.

[@sharpelbows]

This makes me think of Reston, VA except it's not a resort.

[@davidsixtwo]

I live in Portland and I've lived in NYC. I love cities, but I think there's also a whole world of wilderness where things happen on a human scale, away from cars, and I love that as much as I love cities.

[@allws9683]

Reminds me of Oulu in the summer ... The 'wintercycling capital' 200k city in Northern Finland with low density suburbs, with supermarket and retail within 1000m. Connected by completely segregated bike paths and underpasses... Should be doable in most North American cities..

[@allws9683]

bicycle dutch in Oulu winter vs summer kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmW4hGWVi5mUitk&ab_channel=BicycleDutch cycling Oulujoki river kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3Kso557mNKJqLs&ab_channel=Polulla

[@johns.8220]

There is an outdoor shopping center in my hometown that this reminds me of. Literally, people drive their giant trucks and SUVs to the ocean of free parking in order to WALK around and enjoy car-free urbanism (a simulation of it, anyway). I always found it ironic that there is only one place in town where you can walk from an Apple store to Bath & Body Works and from there to Red Robin without a car, and you STILL have to drive to it.

[@louisjov]

This us a great example of why urbanism isn't limited to urban environments. Ironically, I think small towns have the greatest potential forngoid urbanism, because the need for large, high speed car interstates, stroads, etc, just isn't there. A lot of people already drive slow in small towns, and the lower cost of maintaining bike and pedestrian infrastructure is huge for small town budgets that often aren't huge

[@TheHaydeenee]

This reminds me of the valley amenities in Yosemite national Park. Yosemite is much denser due to mountain walls containing the area and many tight tent sites.

[@dawg_gee_man]

I also love that scent of sage, grass, and stands of ponderosa pine.

[@mattslaboratory5996]

It's nice you got to reminisce about your family vacations. SunRiver is a place people have to drive (or fly!) to, with a lot of nice bike paths and very expensive homes. Kind of like a town in Finland or Netherlands, except the people who fixed and maintained things would be part of the community too, and they would live in buildings there, and it would have developed organically rather than being a business. I totally agree about the smell though.

[@jmlinden7]

Sunriver is not a self-contained entity. For one, they don't have any major employers in the area other than the resort itself. You can't scale it up to a city-size because you'd have to add land use for major employers like warehouses and factories.

[@thedapperdolphin1590]

He means self-contained in the sense that it’s geographically isolated. There aren’t really other developments around it

[@upsidedownbagofflour697]

@@thedapperdolphin1590 I thought he meant self-contained as in visitors can get everything they need during their vacation from Sunriver. Given the importance of being self-contained I wish CityNerd defined it

[@ThreeRunHomer]

Suburbs surrounding an urban core could be designed this way. The fact that they aren’t just demonstrates a lack of imagination and will.

[@jmlinden7]

@ThreeRunHomer they could be designed similarly but they would need much more transportation capacity to handle commutes

[@MrBirdnose]

Like any theme park (or 15-minute city), it's supported by lots of workers who don't make enough to actually live there, and have to drive in.

[@joekelly7505]

My boss used to own a nice 3 bedroom condo at Sun River, at the northern end on Bittern Lane right along the Deschutes. And they'd let us employees stay there for 4 days at a time. So when my kids were growing up we spent a handful of summers and winters there, both very magical times of year in their own right. Thanks for bringing some of that nostalgia.

[@BadAstra]

You HAVE TO DO a video about Bend! I LOVE Bend -- where my MIL lives, we can walk-bike to most stuff AND we're biking distance away from a National Forest! The biking culture around Bend is FANTASTIC, and when we moved there for a year during the pandemic my wife and I both lost 30lbs just from walking and biking so much.

[@jakeoswald8017]

THE SMELL OF SUNRIVER. UNFORGETTABLE.

[@_mcdrew]

I grew up doing family reunions in SunRiver. The bike trails are awesome and you can bike literally everywhere to do everything.

[@KevKruz]

I've visited a number of communities outside of the States that are organized like this. It's a really good way of life.

[@TimmyReilly]

I can't believe you did this one... it was my gateway to urbanism. Basically realized in this place I never need to be in a car.

[@hoonami139]

This reminds me a lot of Fire Island here in NY, thousands flock there from NYC as well as the suburbs of Long Island for a car free summer getaway. It’s a very fascinating place from an urbanism perspective

[@iseewood]

I love Sunriver! Such a great resort and creative traffic network. Endless miles of bike trails, but even the road design is unique. The entire resort is filled with roundabouts and you get to your cabin by following the sequence of roundabout numbers. I’ve never been to anyplace like it.

[@angellacanfora]

Sunriver looks lovely! I grew up vacationing in Big Bear Lake, California, a ski resort up at 7000 feet. So when it came time to relocate post-divorce, I thought, "why CAN'T I make it my home?" "Why can't I, a 5'4" blond chick with wimpy health, live by myself in the mountains?"🙄 I leased a (real) rustic cabin on the outskirts of the Village. From my home, I could walk a block and be at restaurants and shops. But it quickly became apparent that I'd been overly confident, blinded by my adventurous spirit. I was alarmed when I realized that the majority of cabins near mine stood vacant half the time. It felt eerie.The people I befriended in the Village lived "off-hill," would commute daily up and down the mountain from the flatlands. It made me feel lonely. I wasn't prepared for stacking firewood or slip-sliding through sleet to the post office or having to shovel feet of snow. I hadn't realized I'd have to deal with whiskey-soaked mountain men breathing down my neck at the laundromat or half the Village being shuttered during the off-season. I don't know what my point is here. Maybe it's "be careful with making a resort your home. There's a reason people only go for one week a year!"

[@andrewdiamond2697]

Whoa. Things I never considered - as I've thought about retiring to a ski town.

[@angellacanfora]

@@andrewdiamond2697 Then my comment here is not in vain. :)

[@jakew1362]

yep most residents here in Sunriver leave for the winter and head to arizona or palm desert.

[@azuresurfer9]

I was just on Hilton Head Island, and it reminded me of many of the things talked about here. It's a fantastic spot for biking, with paths all over the island.

[@jonathanstensberg]

Undeveloped topic suggestion: hospitals. Hospitals are enormous employment centers that also drive large travel volumes from non-employers on a daily basis. In other words, the ideal transit use case. Looking around many cities, however, major hospitals often have a large blast radius in the urban environment. Hospitals are often surrounded by expansive asphalt graveyards and even vacant land-because nobody wants to live next to large parking lots. Hospitals should be drivers of urbanized living, not destroyers of it. A hunch is that this is largely related to the economic health of the city overall. When a city is doing poorly, it’s easy for hospitals to convert local housing into parking for non-local employees. Thriving urban cores seem not to have been effected by this as much as struggling urban cores, at least anecdotally. Really not sure how you would quantify this, but it’s a though I wanted to put out there.

[@mindstalk]

It would be interesting to know more about how European and Japanese hospitals handle this, but in the US the common assumption is that of course you'd especially drive (or be driven) to a hospital, not take transit. After all, you're sick or injured! Americans who grudgingly admit that maybe there's a point to paying for parking elsewhere, get extra-incensed about hospitals charging for parking.

[@josephfisher426]

Well... the transit has to be reliable, if you have an appointment at other than rush hour...

[@willythemailboy2]

Major hospitals in the US are usually built with open land as part of the building plan for future expansion needs. Most building codes REQUIRE such land set-asides for future expansion for all major building projects, not just hospitals.

[@ketchupfilms]

Sunriver is my absolute favorite place for a summer trip in Oregon. It’s what got me to love biking when I was younger! Glad to see it’s getting some love

[@gschweiger]

Ha! I drove up though the pass and Bend on Memorial Day to parts South and East. The traffic from Bend, though Sisters and into the mountains was congested for miles and miles. All of those people that enjoyed a week(end) in a bikeable resort were heading back to their unbikeable suburbs, I guess.

[@johntousseau9380]

My family used to go camping in Sunriver every year. There’s so much to do in that area of central Oregon.

[@jonahcolligan3285]

If you get the opportunity, you should consider reviewing Carleton Landing in Oklahoma. It’s a new urbanist lake community, I’m considering moving there.

[@johnlabus7359]

Might I suggest is that this is just another example of people choosing to segregate themselves to participate in an experience that they either can't or won't participate in at home? At the end of the day, I think that people place more importance on choosing who they associate with than they do the built environment and the provided infrastructure. People are okay with riding transit at Disney while they'll avoid it in their home city. They are happy to walk around a fake urban area that's managed and controlled by a central entity after they safely park their car in a garage. And, they are happy to ride bikes to and from activities among others who have also paid for that privilege. This isn't all that different from the master-planned and sometimes gated communities where social interactions and opportunities are specifically curated.

[@karlbeckerdotcom]

Due to a variety of law decisions made from the 1970s to 1990s, I think people perceive less safety in some places even if that's not the reality. For instance, if people walk through an area with many unhoused people, the area will likely feel less safe and more chaotic compared to an area that does not have that. Is it truly less safe? Depends on the area. As you mention, people like doing these things once they can feel safe. The goal, it seems, is to help ensure that safety is felt everywhere. And walking or biking along a stroad is one way to guarantee not feeling safe.

[@josephcarreon2341]

This is where I think Strong Towns gets it wrong and where NJB absolutely gets it right. Strong Towns doesn't believe you have to move to live in a better place whereas NJB supports the opposition greatly. I love all these channels, but there is a major disconnect in Strong Town's rhetoric and it's exactly what you pointed out. The truth is a lot of Americans will have to move to live in a better place because they aren't just escaping car-centric infrastructure. They're escaping the normativity of American classism. edit: I should add that Strong Towns isn't outright wrong, just that their rhetoric doesn't help those living in neighborhoods plagued by the people described in OP.

[@jakew1362]

suburbs are not like cities where there is such extreme wealth disparity. Most people are between lower middle class and upper middle class, so I think you are over-selling the segregation issue. Your example of Disney I think is more related to being in vacation-mode vs work-mode. You can be more patient and adaptable when on vacation. In normal life you have strict time commitments. Suburban transit takes twice as long to get places as driving and there is a feeling of your punctuality being out of your control when you take transit instead of driving, which is not acceptable when you have a job you want to keep.

[@stevenspillette148]

@@jakew1362 Umm, for many suburbanites, the distinction between lower middle class and upper middle class is the key distinction. Especially since the former usually doesn't come with a 4-year degree, whereas the latter more often does. It's an acutely important distinction for college-educated parents, particularly of the white-collar-job variety, who really really don't want their kids to attend school with children of non-college-educated parents. It all seems ridiculous, but this distinction drives housing location choices.

[@MrBirdnose]

Transit at Disney doesn't have homeless people on it. That's a big part of the difference, unfortunately. People won't ride transit if they have to see people who they think are "beneath" them.

[@mindstalk]

In principle, if you bike 2 times faster than you walk, then an area with 1/4 of walkable density still gives you the same "bikeable" benefits. If 3 times faster, then 1/9. So you could have urban benefits with suburban density without cars, if biking is very safe and attractive.

[@wafflesnfalafel1]

Absolutely agree about the forest aroma you mention. Never been to any of those resorts, though they remind me a lot of Sundcadia up here in Washington. Thanks for the vid sir.

[@Shmogeote]

I love sunriver! I've gone there for annual family trips my whole life. Glad to see someone talking about how bike and pedestrian friendly it is!!

[@jabehauber]

Whistler in BC Canada is another one of those walking destination resorts with high density and urban amenities. All truck services hidden behind/around the perimeter of businesses and cars stored outside the perimeter. And, of course during warm weather, almost everyone is on bikes...because that's why they are there. And then nearby villages are connected by bike paths, some quite a distance away, but people bike it anyway.

[@rhmendelson]

Vail and Winter Park Colorado are like this too:)

[@peterrassolov1979]

I stayed for a week in Telluride during the summer of 2019. From an actual conversation I had with a father and (~elementary school age) son from suburban Georgia: "I wish we could move here, so I can walk to school!"

[@tysoncodes]

Wow I never appreciated Sunriver before this video. Been a few times as a place to dry my boots on skiing bouts with friends. But the common areas were pretty quiet at that time. I gotta check this out in the warmer seasons.

[@realadamthekid]

I've spent many summers in Sunriver. I learned how to bike there, swim, and be active! It's honestly an amazing place for just relaxing.

[@scottduke2809]

I absolutely love Sunriver! actually, i love that whole area. Bend is super cool, Sisters is unique and interesting, Redmond is (somewhat) affordable, the Metolius River (where it begins, with the fishery) is such an incredible blue, and Batchelor is by far my favorite skiing! the annual temp is the only thing that's kept me from moving there, absolutely love it.

[@jimmyraconteur]

reminds me very much of Kiawah Island, maybe Hilton Head a bit too.

[@pull_up_the_roots]

The Oregon high desert is so lovely. Great video- the biking footage is so soothing. Much like actual biking!

[@PastelSkies-n3v]

Displaced native Oregonian here, grew up in Forest Grove before departing for the Rust Belt 2 years ago... childhood vacation memories are flooding my mind 😢 Sisters, O R can also qualify for this criteria, the wooden Old West-inspired architecture, even on their McDonald's(!), sets them apart. And you mentioned juniper and sage, but don't forget the ponderosa pine! (All of which sadly go up in flames on occasion like they did in 2020, so keep that in mind.) There's also an Amtrak Coast Starlight stop down the road from here in Chemult where intercity buses from here serve the 97 corridor including Sunriver. And yeah, the whole eastern side of Oregon (and the southern side to a degree too), apart from Ashland, Bend and maybe the Columbia Gorge, it's as much like another country as it is like another state; with all that's happened in the state government and Portland, no wonder the disloyalists in these parts want to break away and join Idaho instead. But seriously, when Idaho's governor publicly said 'we'll look into seeing if this move could work', he immediately made a wink in his eye the second after, proving even he's in on the joke. Really, rancher cosplayers, you're better off just making your own move across the state line instead. Nice people if you aren't mean to them, though.

[@GeorgeOneEleven]

I feel like a lot of the appeal of vacation towns like Sun River also applies to Summer Camps. Maybe a future video idea?

[@uhhhmm1]

So I recently learned that a modern paradigm of urban planning is collecting input from the community. Can you do a video on the importance of community meetings? They're not the end all be all of local projects that fit into a macro network, but it's vital that urbanist folk go to them. I saw a director at my cities local MPO mention that it's critical and I think it'd be cool to see a video to provide more context!

[@leosmith9301]

You should visit Seabrook, WA, a new urbanist village on the Washington Coast, modeled after Seaside, FL.

[@seattlegrrlie]

I can smell the central Oregon through these images. Ah, I need to go for a mini-vacay

[@conorgilles81]

I visited Sunriver for the first time earlier this year, and you have articulated much of what I was feeling while there. I thought, "This is the kind of place I would like to retire. At least for the summer." I could park my car for weeks and bike or walk everywhere. Two things I will add: 1. The layout is confusing, at least for a first timer. I didn't pay attention to the roundabout numbers. I tried to use the map and ended up taking the dogs on an accidental hour and a half walk. 2. A lot of people around there still drive. Given, it was still chilly when I visited. But our condo (duplex) was close to a road and there was way more traffic than I expected. Never was it close to gridlocked, but one thing the resort has in common with suburbia is ample parking. If you want to drive to the pool, the village, the golf course, etc, the resort provides you that option.

[@v70r06]

It seems that as wonderful a place like sunriver is, the challenge as pointed out in some of the comments, is to have a place like it that is accessible and livable for a diverse range of communities. Maybe a place more like Bentonville where the network of bike paths is no further than a block or 2 for the majority of residents. Of course for such a place, all you need is the unlimited resources of one of the largest corporations anywhere funneled thru the bike-loving descendants of the founder.

[@thebahua]

We're going to Sunriver for our biennial family reunion next month! This is EXACTLY what I wanted to see. Thanks for being clairvoyant and timely without even knowing me!

[@EmmaMaySeven]

Are there any high density versions of Sunriver? Small communities which build walkable destinations with streets, squares and alleys? Almost like, "hey, we built an Italian fishing village...but in Oregon".

[@edwinstar100]

Hi Ray we travelled to Bend same weekend (expensive) from Gibsons B.C. similar kind of place in Canada, on our way through to California. The striking difference was the good intact architecture from the late 1920's a gorgeous town to walk in, same with Carmel, all depend on the blood of tourists. Thanks for keeping me in the urbanist mode. e-star

[@jenbanim]

Hey it's me, guy who went to Sun River as a child of the suburbs and wondered why we couldn't have nice things elsewhere I'd love to see more videos like this about urbanism outside of the context of the usual city and suburb environments. I feel like we're all pretty much on the same page with the basics of "cars bad, trains and bikes good" and putting things in an unfamiliar context like adds nuance to the discussion

[@ryanmiller6605]

11:35 I think the same is true of college students’ experiences in walkable communities!

[@AlbertFu]

wow I've actually stayed here last christmas and it's really lovely

[@losh330]

It's so awesome to see you covering an area where I live!!! As a Bendite, yes please do a video on Bend! It's such a quirky and interesting little city!

[@mdhazeldine]

This place seems very much like Center Parcs in the UK/Europe. It's tempting to think it could be replicated in a normal place, but it's really just a theme park where you stay on-site. No one (apart from the staff) is working there, taking their kids to school, visiting a doctor/hospital, getting their car fixed, etc. etc. and because of the high number of restaurants, not many are doing full grocery shopping trips. So, it's a bit of a false reality. A very pleasant one, but it's not "real".

[@saratemp790]

And of course this is usually the middle to upper class visiting, and you don't have the poor and criminals.

[@SteveNewman-tv6gv]

Interesting that CBS Morning posted a story about Eastern Oregon becoming part of Idaho the same as your story about folks flocking to the area for vacation.

[@louisjov]

Yoh should take a trip to Anchorage Alaska. For a car centric town, it's surprisingly bike friendly (though it still need A LOT of work)

[@JSRMedia]

Rurbanism. Can confirm this place is incredible and the only HOA I've enjoyed in my whole life.

[@davidevans3081]

Yes indeed-I often visit Bend, going over and back from Portland on the same day, and when I get back home I feel like I have been away for a week. There’s the fragrance of sage and juniper, but there’s also the dry air, a different, brilliant cast to the sunlight, and an overall different color scheme-beige and sage instead of gray and dark green.

[@hgman3920]

I was back in my hometown of Lincoln, NE recently for a wedding and one very small event struck me from an urban design standpoint. While the family and I were dining at a local fast-food establishment (the one and only Runza), a couple of kids who were 11 or 12 at the most came in to buy soft serve ice cream cones. They were unaccompanied by adults and had walked from the nearby residential neighborhood which was right next to the restaurant. It reminded me of my own childhood there where walking or biking was always an option for kids, and I was heartened to see that the older parts of town had not changed in the last 40 years. At the same time, I was disheartened to realize that there was almost nowhere in my suburban NC town where something like this could happen. Auto-centered commercial districts are confined to stroads with strict separation from residential districts. Now I'm wondering how many other places would pass the "ice-cream cone test" - i.e. how many places are left where unaccompanied minors could go by themselves to buy an ice-cream cone?

[@kenbrown2808]

the real factor, here, is that sunriver is NOT a city. the majority of people staying there are not working, they are there to relax and have a slower pace of life. they aren't offended by bicyclists, because they have nowhere they have to be and all day to get there. the other thing, as others have said; the people who WORK at sunriver; can't afford to live close enough to get to work in any way but to drive.

[@daswienerle3018]

Obviously you can't copy the concept of sunriver exactly to any city and this is also not the point he makes in the video. But you can be inspired by it and adapt it maybe with multi family homes etc. Other countries show that it works.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@daswienerle3018 I'm sure multifamily homes are forbidden in sunriver. did you not get that you can't copy the the concept to a city, because sunriver is not a city, it's a vacation resort?

[@corypoole3214]

Last time I checked, sun river doesn't allow skateboards or scooters on their trail network. It's a further disappointment as the state spent millions building a multi use path between bend and sun river which creates a dead end for anyone not on a bike or driving a car.

[@keefers84]

How hard would that be to change?

[@corypoole3214]

Simply a policy change. I reached out two years ago suggesting a change and received a hard NO! From management. ​@keefers84

[@stevengordon3271]

Do they allow trikes - asking for a friend.

[@jakew1362]

@@stevengordon3271 trikes, 2 person bikes, any kind of bike. just not things out of control teenagers like that could injury little toddlers out on the paths.

[@EarlGamer]

@@jakew1362 Bikes can injure small children just as easily as skateboards could.

[@brianingersoll5604]

LOVE Sunriver. It's been too long since I've been to central Oregon. It is truly a magical place from The Dalles/Tygh Valley in the north to Crater Lake in the south, all the towns along 197/97 are simply stunning, with Sunriver being the most magical of them all. It's year-round destination. Now I want to make a reservation.

[@alecfurtado1765]

Truckee, CA is getting there! And Sunriver only gets like 12" snow.... Truckee has 10'+ typically to contend with.

[@c.a.mcmullen7674]

Thanks...now I have to revisit Oregon!