How To Square a Part within .0001 on a Surface Grinder

[@cgis123]

Don, I would have to say, if you offered me a job working with you, I would pack up my kids, sell my house and move it all to the US for the chance to learn more from you. You are a credit to our KZbin family and all machinists professional or hobby. Thankyou for sharing your hard earned wisdom with us all. Matt Your most well behaved student in Australia.

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Matthew Gischus MattYou are very kind and I am very pleased that you are learning some new techniques from our video's. We have some very good video's coming out so keep watching and keep learning.

[@thundercuck1779]

Matthew Gischus we have a name for you on the shopfloor, ass kisser ;)

[@thundercuck1779]

Thomas Headley It was a joke, are you that guy at the workplace who takes everything so seriously and nobody likes?

[@cgis123]

Thomas Headley I can assure you I wasn't laughing !! I run my own one man shop doing prototype and maintenance machining and fabrication. The reason I run it as a one man show is because I don't have time enough in the day to "Have a laugh" Time is money, and my customers would prefer my mind to be on their job and not fooling around. My original post was to give credit to a man who takes time out of his day to make videos to teach new comers to the trade, and to show some of us either new techniques or new products available to us that we may not have heard of or seen yet. I can assure you that Don has forgotten more than I know, and I am always willing to learn something new.... So thank you Thomas for you comments. And Letrool, it pays to just keep smart mouth "jokes" to yourself........

[@geraldgepes]

I had the chance to talk to you guys on the phone for an interview once and I've gotta say, I'm kicking myself for not coming in to at least shake hands. You've got a lot of knowledge, thanks for passing it on in these videos for us younger guys, I'll be putting some zig zags in my toolbox from now on.

[@theslimeylimey]

I miss tool making. I got out before we lost almost all of it over seas. I'm in Western Canada and we didn't have much to begin with. I had the pleasure of using your Master-Grind Spin Index fixture for mold making and it was a thing of beauty and a joy to use. It was rock solid and dead on accurate.

[@ronvonbargen8411]

Grinding the shim in is pure genius. Never thought of doing that. I already clamped it to an angle block/ angle plate.

[@brianbondy5667]

Thank you for all you help. I am 36 years old. I kind of fell into the trade after welding school. At 33 I did automation. After that I got into fixture building. I am doing a lot of manual machining. I first came across you guys looking for "How to use a dial indicator" advice. I have watched many videos now. Today was the day I knew you perhaps ,were from my area. "Did ya go to the Tiger game". Thought Wait I am a Detroit Tiger fan.So I googled the shop name! I am a Canadian Boy from Windsor. Thanks for the help! Took me long enough but I found the work I love.

[@SuburbanToolInc]

So glad to hear, thank you for watching!

[@joshkunz7158]

Thank you for putting this series together. I look foward to each one and I've watched all of the videos at least twice. It reminds me a lot of my first true mentor in a machine shop who has now passed away. Thank you again.

[@markrichardson239]

Hi Don; I'd like to thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I recently purchased a B&S Micro-master hydraulic 6x18. The only grinder I have ever ran previously was a 48" Blanchard. This is very new to me. But, you have brushed out the trail, and your guidance is probably saving me years. Thanks, Mark

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Excellent video series on surface grinding, I think I just binge watched all of them. Greatly appreciated!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Glad you enjoyed them! Thanks again for watching!

[@23ukr]

I love your videos. I'm a young machinist, and I have leaned a lot from you!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

I'm glad to have been able to help. Good luck out there, never stop learning! Thanks for watching.

[@chrisstephens6673]

So nice to have instruction from an expert, makes up for the amateurs who think they know something and immediately put up a video to show how clever they are. not! The timing is very apt as i have just this week resurrected my grinder after several years of inactivity. Keep 'em coming. c

[@capncharlie7894]

great tools, great technique, great sense of humor. Real winners

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@pvcrouter]

I like to paint a stripe with a marking pen once I am a tenth or so away the thickness of the stripe tips the part a tenth or less. Ive been able to get parts within one tenth tir. great video, thanks for sharing. You pass on so many tips

[@kundeleczek1]

That shim grinding thing... genius !

[@MrShobar]

"…and you can use it afterwards, if you don't screw it up…" Thanks again, Don, for a very entertaining and informative video.

[@TheChitownMachinist]

Great videos Don!! I am the same way about my tools. I just like using my own. But me being a young guy (in my early 30s ) Every shop ive worked at is an up hill battle. Eventually they lighten up. The proof is always in the work, not the talk!! Looking forward to seeing more of yer video series! Best, Eddie

[@christimetogo6672]

Great video ! Love the zig zag paper shims idea.👌

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it and picked up a new tip.

[@McFingal]

Thanks Don & Glenn for another fine video.

[@johnbird8605]

Brilliant, love your videos! Bring back memories in the toolroom in UK!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Glad you like them!

[@benjamine6703]

great tips. I'm enjoying your videos and stories. Thanks for all the work you are doing making these videos.

[@johnhedglin4489]

Glenn knows all about zig zags! hahaha. From a fellow grinder, great video. I always liked step grinding, saves a lot of hassle from a vise or a magnet sqaure plus very accurate.

[@rlsimpso]

Fascinating seeing the process. I'm going to 7-11 to pick up some zig zags.

[@JackHoying]

Thanks for the informative videos. I'm very new to surface grinding and have lots to learn.

[@bcbloc02]

Awesome video on several ways to get it done!

[@twinturbo327]

I learn something new every video, thank you for the lesson!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Thank you for the kind words and thank you for watching.

[@lbcustomknives]

Always learn something from you bud. Alway a pleasure wish you were in the UK I no a day with you would be like 5 years learning some where else take care lee

[@sibalogh]

Good man, excellent presentation...!

[@MukhtharAhmed]

Thank you for creating such informative videos. Looking forward for more

[@outsidescrewball]

Thank you for the lesson!

[@miamatti]

Great channel, so much information and knowledge

[@SuburbanToolInc]

I appreciate that!

[@goldeee666]

lots of info. Im learning a lot. many thanks

[@9sec93lx]

"But officer, I use these for shims in my machine shop." Uh huh......Sure you do

[@adamh8368]

Best Racing Tips Win At The Dragstrip hahahahah

[@sprogo3]

You have a 50 millionths shim do you? Don is a Master Toollmaker/Machinist he knows better.

[@stevenclark541]

dang man, 15:05, it looks like even your random pencil marks are accurate. This has been an amazing video, so many tricks.

[@jaysilverheals4445]

good step grinding. Actually I intended to do one but its already here. Some tips. The cylindrical square you really dont know what youve got--after the work is produced the check final check itself is the indicator method as shown. A person can also drill a hole in the surface plate to mount a post to one end. I drilled 3 holes for 3/4 inch cold rolled so I can have multiple indicators set up. For the post you make a plate maybe 3/4 inch thick and ream a 3/4 hole on one end with the obvious saw cut and screw to clamp down--same concept as a stop that clamps down on a bridgeport. The plate is about 4 inches or so long and your indicator holder is also a reamed hole with set screw that slides up and down. The plate has a big arc about 20 inches or so radius on the far end. You hack off the material leaving maybe .100 thickness of the arc. You then take your part and slide it against the arc to check squareness. The nice thing about that system which works well--is that sometimes parts have a cut or foot.--You simply slide the arc plate up and down. In other words his indicator system the final 25% or so into the video BY FAR is the way to go--I would not nor have I used the cylindrical square. In high precision grinding to better than a tenth they are not used. Another tip is that grinding dry your test block of course will have ears sticking up at the ends after it stabilizes. Take a frozen coolant pack and lay it on top and take the heat out and let it stabilize at a full constant temp the entire block. Then dust off the top along with the batman ears at the ends. I also use those sticks of ski wax on the wheel for final dust off.

[@jaysilverheals4445]

when a person feels the top of the block after a few seconds and it feels not hot people often think the heat is gone. Actually almost all of it is still there migrated into the block. Upon cooling the block will be a reverse pin cushion combined with about .0005 undersize and likely more on big items.

[@sukhendu2009]

Good1 man....Helps me a lot from INDIA

[@phillip7503]

Thank you so much for sharing your lifetime of knowledge

[@renter007]

Now that Medical Cannabis is legal in Michigan you can finally buy the large rolling papers for machining purposes. The tiny Zig-Zag papers are nice for small parts.

[@393strokedcoupe]

Awesome example of the "blue light" being a couple of tenths off! I didn't know that trick. I suppose the white spectrums wavelength is wider and blue wavelength is shorter allowing more blue wavelength to pass between two surfaces of just a few tenths. I'm curious, how much further can this concept can be pushed?

[@doright6461]

A monochromatic between yellow and red with a 12' quartz flat got me 1 light band. Considering the 12' quartz was within 2 millionths and my tolerance was 20 I'd say I was within. Happy flight.

[@wb93612]

Thanks for the video. BTW. I have that same machine in my shop. Fadal always treated me well.

[@ctprjcstv3998]

I love this old man

[@flightforfight]

oh man!!!, you are a really expert monster!!!, is beautyfull lisent to you and at every word i learn. teach with all single words!!!!. this expertice is very much at the simple how i do!!!. Thanks thanks thank you very much for all this videos!!! From Argentina congrats

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed the video.

[@jrod4538]

There is machining and then there is Tool/ Mold making. I miss it with a passion!! Unfortunately repairing crappy ass elevators pays way more.

[@ypaulbrown]

Thanks so much for sharing.....

[@GoughCustom]

Hey Don, love the video! Just a quick bit of feedback, I wrote this on the PracticalMachinist forum as well: The audio is very distracting. Every time you stop talking for a second the background noise comes up in level with a 'whoosh' and it makes the audio very unpleasant. This is caused by a setting on the camera called 'auto gain control' that attempts to automatically correct the microphone levels. If you disable it and set the microphone levels manually (very simple to do when using a lavalier mic like the one attached to your shirt) the resulting audio will be *much* clearer and more pleasant. -Aaron

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Gough Custom Great tip , we will look into that. It has been driving us crazy too.

[@GoughCustom]

SuburbanTool Inc Not sure what camera you have, but let me know if I can be of any help!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Gough Custom Will do , Glenn will be in on Tuesday and I will review it with him. Thanks for the help.

[@GoughCustom]

SuburbanTool Inc Any time mate, always grateful to see someone sharing their knowledge!

[@tansit2344]

Aluminum foil usually hovers around a thou or thou and a half. Pick and choose the brand and grade then you have an entire roll.

[@deeremeyer1749]

Or buy steel shim stock of the proper thickness. It's not like .0015" to .003" shims aren't used in lots of applications like axles, differentials etc along with tapered roller bearings to set bearing preload, backlash, etc. Grab a piece of aluminum foil off your roll of "shim stock" and anybody with a clue about how good machine shops are operated, how good machinists operate and how good machine work is done is going to laugh their ass off, take their work from you and never step foot in your "machine shop" again.

[@operator8014]

Doesn't wash away in coolant either.

[@SturgellatOSU]

But the recreational use for aluminum foil keeps people up for days.

[@cdrom1070]

You know running machine shop or any business is very much about cost. Sometimes you need to keep production going too. It makes you look bad if you miss a deadline and lowering costs always looks good. @@deeremeyer1749

[@cdrom1070]

not saying to cheap out on tools but you need to make a decision where your money is going to go. It might be better to buy something else.

[@andrew74x]

Hey Don you should do a video on the proper way to roll a cigarette! Bet you make em perfect every time!

[@cdrom1070]

i think he stopped at his age, I think your a dickhead for encouraging it. He mentioned its bad in the video.

[@DCT_Aaron_Engineering]

Great video guys, big thumbs up ;-) Thanks for sharing, Aaron.

[@21putnik21]

You are great teacher 👍🤘

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Thank you for the kind remarks and thank you for watching.

[@ikegel1923]

can someone get this man a joint?

[@charleso4214]

Great Video. Thank you for sharing.

[@MyShopNotes]

Thanks for the vids. This is very valuable info.

[@kcraig51]

I can't believe I've never heard of leaving "shim" on the side of a piece. But then again, I've never worked in a grind shop....

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Learn something new every day :)

[@intjonmiller]

Great information as always! I just picked up my "new" (very old) surface grinder, a Covel Type 6. It has a rotating head so I can grind on angles not parallel with the transverse travel of the table. That's neat I guess. Any idea why I would want to be able to do that?? All I can think of is getting a slightly different pattern of scratches on the surface, but I assume I'm just stuck in the mindset of what I've always seen done. Thanks!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Jon Miller Jon ,I am not familiar with that grinder so you may want to ask on the Practical Machinist site. There is a lot of great info there.

[@intjonmiller]

SuburbanTool Inc So it turns out it's not exactly a surface grinder. It's a tool and cutter grinder / universal grinder which happens to double very effectively as a surface grinder. :) What are the odds you'll be doing any videos covering that kind of stuff? I'm rather excited to realize how much more I have on my hands than I expected, but I have no idea how to use it and it looks like there is a shortage of quality videos on the subject. From my reading it's just a more obscure set of skills, so it's little wonder that there isn't much about it. My copy of Precision Machining Technology dedicates one small paragraph in its 760 pages to the subject. It basically says, "Oh, you should be aware that this other kind of grinder also exists." Everyone seems to indicate that it's the most precise type of grinding equipment and some speak about it with near reverence. There are quite a few videos showing one for sale, or showing someone doing something with one, but basically none (that I have found) about how to use one effectively. I'm sure you have your own priorities for your video production, and this may be outside of the scope of your shop (I have no idea), but if you take requests please consider this one. Thanks!

[@dougrundell947]

Good tips. To bad they don't make rolling papers in 0.0001 inch increments.

[@ruperthartop7202]

Great tip. Thanks

[@joehurly4687]

great video.

[@ZappninLLP]

Very helpful. Thanks.

[@tubester4567]

What about using an accurate angle plate to grind the edges square?

[@quinka2]

clamp it to a precision grinding block and on a parallel , then dust the .003 off it to clean, then place it on the magnet on the opposite side and clean! Then it is square and parallel

[@John91406]

Hi Don, Great videos! At 11:15 in the video, you are using a tenth indicator attached to a green stand- What is that stand called? who makes it? and where can I buy it? Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. All the best, John

[@SuburbanToolInc]

It's a Taft-Peirce Comparator Square, we make it! It can be found here: www.subtool.com/tp/9146_taft-peirce_comparator_square.html . Thanks for watching!

[@scottpardoe6349]

Hi don. Do you ever use the method of clamping this to an l piece. If the method in the vid is your preferred method.may i ask why many thanks

[@ardvarkkkkk1]

Here I thought that I was the only one that used Zig-Zag papers in the shop.

[@sahkram]

Don under plays the use of a surface gauge and indicator in checking squareness. the master cylinder can be eliminated entirely by using the surface gauge and indicator and comparing one side against the other and shimming to make them match. i'm sure he knows this but has just forgotten or edited the instruction for brevity.

[@SuburbanToolInc]

sahkram If you have an angle plate with 6 inches on one side and one inch on the other how do you compare them?

[@sahkram]

SuburbanTool Inc yes, use a 1" jo block or spacer on the appropriate side.

[@jaysilverheals4445]

Step grind the ends first exactly. Set the indicator to zero. Step grind the main face.

[@albion2742]

DO you guys have a precision angle plate?

[@theslimeylimey]

Haha I know what you mean about C-Clamps. I bought 6 of my own 5" clamps for the same reason. I gave 2 to a co-worker, 2 grew legs so now I only have 2.

[@dougankrum3328]

+theslimeylimey ...Same goes for vise-grips....

[@jermainerace4156]

Ooooo, a Fadal in the background! I hear they've started making machines again, do you know if they are still as good?

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Unfortunately I don't have an answer for that. Thanks for leaving us a message, though!

[@chowtownfoodreviews6679]

Jermaine Race they do !our shop just bought one

[@DoRC]

Is the light coming through such a small space blue because of the shorter wavelength? As in the Crack is too narrow to allow red light to pass through?

[@SuburbanToolInc]

You are correct, thanks for the comment.

[@imaadsaad9158]

if u dont have precision vise or angle plate,then also you can remove the taper by directly butting the thickess on magnetic bed,and remove the taper from side by using a cup wheel.plz correct me,if am wrong.

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Certainly another way to do it.

[@newstart49]

Oh great! Now I want a grinder. (sigh).

[@tylerjones6043]

I'm just saying if you're a good tool and die maker you'd never have to resquare your part lol just, nice video though. You should do one on setup and precision jig boring. I feel you guys could explain it very well.

[@binujacob8326]

Using paper for right angle ,is that accurate..? I think step grinding is more better....

[@pedroviana8610]

I really enjoy watching your videos and have learned a great deal by doing so. I just have one question; on the final squareness check you made with the 10ths indicator and the stand with the beveled edge, how come you are measuring for squareness on the same face, shouldn't you be measuring on the opposite face for a comparison reading? I'm by no means an expert, just a home machinist, but I can't wrap my head around how comparing measurements on the same side and height of a part give you any indication of squareness. I hope I have made my question clear enough. Thanks for the great videos and keep them coming!!!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

Pedro Viana Both sides were checked with the comparator square. One side was checked and then the part was flipped and the other side was checked. Are you asking how a comparator square works?

[@powaybob]

This is excellent info Thanks. Will say the "Zig-zag" jokes got a little old.

[@entritur]

well, he ain't no spring chicken

[@FisVii77]

great videos you from Michigan tigers ? :) keep up the good works .

[@peterspence5196]

Thanks !!!

[@djsalvi26]

Hi Don, how you do it when the parts are not Ferro magnetic?

[@andregross7420]

Grinding non-magnetic materials isn't too common, but when needed you can hold them in a toolmakers grinding vise that is magnetic.

[@cliffordernest7825]

Dumb question: how’s the part secured to the table of the grinder?

[@SuburbanToolInc]

There is no dumb question, its a magnet

[@jeevansadalge844]

can you tell what is 1000s and 3000s ,you talking about?....i am new to milling and i am from india....any unit differences...we are using mm units

[@SuburbanToolInc]

its 1000s of an inch or 3000s of an inch !! look inch vs mm

[@paulatkins894]

I think I just had an epiphany!

[@bluestarindustrialarts7712]

Having your own tools and equipment is great but ISO9000 and beyond standards require central calibration of all measuring equipment.....from dial verniers to jo-blocks and guage pins to indicators. I didnt care if the guys in my shop used their own stuff as long as it was entered into the calibration system. If I saw someone using a micrometer without first having it calibrated/checked, I talked to them. Once.

[@MrEh5]

Have you tried felt pen marks as a shim?

[@SuburbanToolInc]

I have, but it's hard to measure. I prefer the consistency of the cigarette papers.

[@jaysilverheals4445]

you can do little things like barely stab the metal with a point but step grinding using the indicator method is far easier.

[@albion2742]

How Flat is the magnetic chuck

[@glenthemann]

+George Lee they're ground on the machine once bolted to the table.

[@albion2742]

No need to tell me anymore I was a precision grinder for 45 years. I worked on high precision tolerances.

[@shodanxx]

Why is the grinder's table so much wider than the magnetic holding plate ?

[@SuburbanToolInc]

The machine is designed that way to provide a high degree of accuracy.

[@offyguy112]

The grinder has 6 inches of "cross travel" so Don put a 6 inch wide mag chuck. Makes sense to me.

[@tubester4567]

magnetic chucks come in different sizes but they are very expensive, big ones can be in the thousands of dollars, most people wont buy the biggest magnetic chuck available because of the cost. The machine itself is designed to hold the biggest magnetic chucks but most people get by with a smaller one.

[@CaskStrength777]

I prefer stainless 0.0005" thick shim stock strip myself

[@pseudotasuki]

My makerspace got a surface grinder but we have to wait for an electrician to install a new circuit. It's torture!

[@SuburbanToolInc]

I hope it works well for you.

[@Cttruckn]

Does Glenn get off work at 420

[@SuburbanToolInc]

sometimes

[@deeremeyer1749]

I'd hope that any shop that has everything else necessary to "see" and "measure" and "fix" this problem would have actual shim stock to use for the "fix" instead of paper. And how does placing a shim under the bottom of the part to make it "level" for surface grinding result in the part being "square" after the grinding when its going to "tilt" again as soon as the shim is removed from underneath? If the part is "leaning" in one direction how does putting a shim underneath it to make it "square" vertically with your "standard" and then surface-grinding the TOP square up the BOTTOM where it must be "out of square" if its "leaning" in the first place? And isn't the amount you determine its "out of square" using that magnetic rod thing going to INCREASE the further out on the rod you measure? I noticed you also checked the OPPOSITE "side" for "square" post-grinding and not the side you checked for "square" pre-grinding. You had your "shim" under the side with all the "holes" and measured the solid side pre-grinding and then checked the opposite side for "square" post-grinding. You also used different methods/tools to check "square" post-grinding than you used pre-grinding. And grinding the top of a "leaning" object is not going to square up the bottom and sides if you "shim" the unsquare/unlevel bottom to make IT square and then grind material off the top which is going to go right back to being unlevel and unsquare again as soon as the "shim" is removed.

[@rascal3042]

This process squares the top to the front. You then turn the part over and grind the bottom parallel with the top without the shim. As for the magnetic square, yes, it does show an increased reading the farther from the surface you measure. Don suggested measuring out the approximate part width for that reason. If you check right against the surface it tells you nothing. Both of these were fairly obvious.

[@jmjaxson]

I think 'wheat-straw' papers are .0015

[@kit1635b]

just grind off 2 micron left some space dun grind it than turn around grind it, than turn back grind it should get square part.use paper maybe too much. sorry poor English.

[@CNCEVOLUTION]

Like

[@markthegunplumber8376]

i guess a guy could use and Indi Square on that if you had one.

[@albion2742]

After grinding to + -.00005 I believe its virtually impossible to keep dimensions that constant without using coolant.

[@andregross7420]

+George Lee It can be done, I do it occasionally. The bigger the part the harder it is though.

[@albion2742]

Iam saying consistently .You said occasionally. Big difference making one part to making dozens and keeping within limits.

[@robc2536]

George, it can be done consistently. I spent 2 1/2 years of my apprenticeship grinding to +/-.00005" on a daily basis. It was on a Harig 612, no coolant, no hydraulic feed. We built injection molds for the electronics industry. Hundreds of laminates in the same mold, all ground to.+/- .00005" to get the tolerances in the plastic parts.

[@jaysilverheals4445]

DID YOU WORK AT KEYTRONICS?

[@chowtownfoodreviews6679]

oh you better have glaucoma...... don; I do lol

[@SuburbanToolInc]

You're welcome, glad you were able to see something new.

[@laszlobernath5344]

Why Why Why ???And Now the chinese know how to square things up!

[@tubester4567]

They will still screw up because all their machines are running out.

[@jeffruth1507]

Good stuff!