Subverting Tropes

[@Jam_Ferguson]

"You wanna make an amnesia game? Knock yourself out!" - I see what you did there Mr Cain. Very clever 😂

[@heavenheathern]

I don't remember this part of the video

[@breestb8061]

​@@heavenheathern at 0:55

[@thesuperpunmaster6369]

​@@heavenheathernGuess you followed the advice

[@SubwayCafe-by2ey]

ahaha

[@blacxthornE]

​​@@thesuperpunmaster6369 i think that was the joke, the wording seems purposeful.

[@Vasenkov]

I immensely enjoy in Morrowind how they approached idea of player being a reincarnation of hero, who came to save everybody. Game doesn't actually have any definitive proof of that, half of story is you basically fabricating circumstances to fit into prophecy and what's most fun is nobody around actually cares. They have tough lives to live and don't have time for "heroes", and player often plays a role of sucker they found to unload their dirty work to, rather than hero returned to save the day.

[@mementomori771]

When you get addressed as Neravar by a demi god i think that put it out of doubt

[@Vasenkov]

@@mementomori771 I think that's just out of convenience to get advantage of you for personal needs. Final vibe check is when before final fight Dagoth Ur, despite coming in your dreams, asks you - hey fella, how do you think, are you really Nerevar reborn? And you can answer "Dunno, man" or "I'm just me" if you want. Azura pointed her finger at you and called you Nerevarine, but to achieve her goals through you. Tribunal is no different.

[@blacxthornE]

I remember the last time Bethesda had good writing

[@bensinclair9351]

@blacxthornE Thanks the Michael Kirkbride, its a shame he left shortly after Morrowind shipped would have been interesting to see what became of Bethesda if he stayed.

[@Guilherme_Sena]

@@mementomori771 what if that demi god is lying? She sees you proving yourself to a lot of people so she says "ok, I'm gonna use this guy"

[@infernas]

One of these days Tim should say something like "Hello, everybody. It is I, Timothy" just to subvert our expectations. 😂

[@renaigh]

I really like the idea of a final boss who reloads your last save every time you beat them making the solution where you have to beat them without dying and no saves.

[@kotzpenner]

Maybe as a secret boss or in a game where save and reload are part of the gameplay.

[@matt61956q]

reminds me of the last boss in Undertale, flowey.

[@steveftoth]

Maybe you need to edit the save file to best then

[@DS-rd8ud]

@@kotzpenner Look into Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew. It's a real-time tactics game (think Commandos), where the save-reload system is an in-universe thing; the whole game is about the occult and magic powers, and the save-load mechanic is introduced on the first level via dialogue and usage of said mechanic. I won't spoil it, but later in the game there are some neat usages of it.

[@kotzpenner]

@@DS-rd8ud pretty cool

[@MaskedRiderDouble]

11:26 My experience during the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion after I clearly discovered who the traitor was, and yet the game didn't allow me to actually follow up on that at all.

[@TheGreatestJediOfAllTime]

Bethesda disappoints me endlessly.

[@dagoonite]

I know you'll probably never read this, but I work with a gal who used to be a secretary for Interplay. She told me some interesting stories about her time there; she described you as a "drinking colleague." Lisa's a character. But she compared me positively to you, which I'll take as a complement.

[@CainOnGames]

I remember Lisa. Say hi to her from me!

[@ImSim_Cook]

I hope I am not the only one who is absolutely baffled at the fact that Tim Cain - one of the top dogs of the game dev God echelon - is actually telling us about ideas he has not gotten to use, and offering them to us to potentially make ourselves. It is almost embarrassing how fortunate we are as a generation.

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

Because he knows that ideas are cheap, it's implementation that matters. I imagine he has a video on this exact subject.

[@acetrainerarcane1755]

He’s said himself that an idea is worth almost nothing, it’s all the in the execution

[@ImSim_Cook]

@@acetrainerarcane1755 I think that’s humility talking. And one of those lessons best communicated via exaggeration. Ideas are precious things, and the fact that he is willingly putting them out there with the idea of seeing what we do with it is cool.

[@acetrainerarcane1755]

@@ImSim_Cook It is cool, but he’s right about ideas being cheap. Anyone can come up with fun ideas, there’s no skill in ideas. It’s when you start fleshing out that idea and how you use and implement it that actually matters. I think you’re putting his ideas on to much of a pedestal

[@m1n3craftPCtut0r1al]

@@acetrainerarcane1755”there’s no skill in ideas” is a laughably false statement. Clearly there’s skill in having “good” ideas and “bad” ideas occur because of (in part) a lack of skill.

[@doccroc5962]

i enjoyed the subversion of the recruitable party member stereotypical tropes in Pillars of Eternity, a priest who absolutely hates his god, a paladin who is a political diplomat instead of holy warrior, it worked as the subversions were really fleshed out.

[@sevenproxies4255]

That part about "You're not special" made me think of Fallout 2, where you're literally refered to as The Chosen One in your home village. BUT! If you play the mods where some cut-content get restored, you find out that you're not the only "Chosen One". The former Chosen One is still around and he's pissed off at you for taking his spotlight. 😄

[@635574]

Save games are the whole plot device in Undertale, actually you have to tire sans out before you can defeat him.

[@futurepig]

I tried to sudvert tropes once, but then I took a knee to my arrow.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I'll bet you didn't see the nuclear winter coming!

[@CircleOfTheSeptagram]

The ring quest in Arcanum sits deep in my memory. All of the quests turning things upside down over and over kept me wanting more from the world. I think it's what gave it its staying power, and why there are people basically performing unholy rites to keep the game going on newer machines. You've said you hate sequels, but I selfishly wish another Arcanum could be developed. Your talks about it, and your showing of the recomp for Win10/11 was really special. Thanks for the vid, as always!

[@CainOnGames]

You’ll like my Arcanum development timeline, coming May 30. It’s over 30 minutes long.

[@fabrigarciacartoons]

9:45 that thing about the villian being able to Save the game just blew up my mind

[@adammoynihan2589]

It's also fascinating when the subversion of a trope becomes the new trope. The example of this i love is evil Superman stories were rampant for a few years and it became stale fast with the exception of Homelander.

[@BL00DYME55]

I mean Invincible handled it pretty well too. Like Tim said, as long as the game/movie/show is doing something original and interesting, who cares if it's a trope or not.

[@sebastianacevedo9444]

That princess Rumspringa sounds like an incredible basis for a game or even a fantasy story. And you're right on the subverting the tropes they can be a lot of fun and adding details can make a trope more developed or even subverted

[@xyhmo]

I thought Parvati was a wink at Firefly and the also very friendly mechanic character Kaylee.

[@dennislarsen6052]

I love when authers use tropes with purpose. Neal Stephenson will sometimes be tropy, but only to snare you along, make you feel safe and... SLAM... He pulls some outrageous trick, and you are lost in a way you can only be, when you feel safe on your way there.... Awesome stuff!!

[@LemonMoon]

Damn you could have done the twist undertale did like 20 years ahead of time.

[@UlissesSampaio]

My favorite fantasy RPG trope that always try to subvert as a player is to play as a frontline wizard.

[@almastidyatlov9641]

Love to build such characters. When I realised that in Morrowind I could be a heavy armour wearing wizard with a big bonk stick I was over the moon. For 2003 it felt quite special.

[@UlissesSampaio]

@almastidyatlov9641 I loved that in Oblivion as well. Also, Pillars Of Eternity 2 had cool synergies with mage for melee.

[@Draconic_Blazonry]

Fighter/mage, spellblade or battlemage/whatever is my favorite type of fantasy rpg character.

[@jayjaybob2]

Wow I love that fantasy world idea you came up with. The idea of the princesses being the bad guys and you helping dragons and stuff sounds like such a good twist on the genre. My favorite part by far is the idea of the wizards who were abused and that's why they hide away. I love playing wizards and magic users in games, in D&D I almost always play some kind of wizard or sorcerer, and it makes complete sense that if you're born with these incredible magical abilities then people would abuse that. I think of spells like plant growth in 5th edition and how it's a 3rd level spell that, in 8 hours, will DOUBLE the amount of harvestable crops in a half mile radius for a whole year! Like if you were a druid capable of casting that spell, surely farmers and lords would hunt you down so they can turn you into their slave and make you double their harvest. Even more mundane magics are incredible compared to what normal people can do so it only makes sense that people born with that natural talent would be a tool for the rich and powerful.

[@NamelessVoice]

The real-time stealth-strategy game Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew has save/load being an actual in-world mechanic involving time manipulation. (Spoiler) Later on, your team encounters an adversary who also has this power. You cannot kill her, because she just reloads a saved game. You can instead only work against her in ways that she doesn't perceive as being threatening enough to reload.

[@SyndicateOperative]

Another example, which is... very famous.., would be Undertale.

[@pelicano1987]

A shame the game is tainted with SBI.

[@CosplayZine]

​@@pelicano1987State Bank of India?

[@BuzzKirill3D]

Well, you subverted the trope of the expectation of subverting "It's me, Tim" in a video titled like this.

[@Chatetris]

Really placed emphasis on "it's me, Tim" today. Hmmm, we'll need to monitor the situation.

[@sp00ky_guy]

Definitely a Timpostor

[@dempa3]

A game that really blew my mind with its setting and story, and had some interesting innovative mechanics, but still used Tim's favorite combo of named character with amnesia, is Disco Elysium. They really did a lot of things right. On another note, it'd be really interesting to imagine a game like Dwarf Fortress, with agent based simulation, other simulated systems, and procedural generation, but which allows "injecting" stories/plots/adventures. Every time one plays through the adventure, things could play out wildly differently, depending on the chaotic nature of such a game. And one could let the simulation run for some time after one has finished the adventure, and let the game generate the epilogue, and thus something similar to ending slides. I wonder what Tim would think about working on such a game?

[@m1n3craftPCtut0r1al]

Project zomboid is similar to that, if you continue to play in the same single player world.

[@andrewhegstrom2187]

It's like he's trying to call out Tyranny without actually saying Tyranny. That game doesn't get enough credit for making villain the main choice.

[@bananeyfish]

Very good video! People love acting like "trope" is a dirty word, or that you can't use tropes in your writing when they should be treating the word "trope" like the word "noun". It's just a way of defining a pattern, it doesn't mean you're a bad or unoriginal writer. You could say that The Return of the King and Macbeth both use "ironic prophecy" as a trope, but that doesn't mean Tolkien or Shakespeare were unoriginal or copying something else. Hell, most of Tolkien's names for dwarves and wizards are right out of the Poetic Eddas, but that doesn't mean he's a bad writer! He was paying homage to something he was passionate about. Point is, if you spend all your time working yourself into a fit over "I can't use tropes!" you're just going to get a headache, when you should be spending that energy to create and then refine, refine, refine!

[@krisjooste]

Subverting tropes (poorly) has become a trope.

[@kingofank]

That last idea is pretty cool, about the player being a villain trying to atone. Most games start with you having good relations with the good guys, but some let you build up reputation with the bad guys. I'm imagining a game where you were a bad guy, and left for some reason (maybe you did something so heinous you had to flea persecution, or you went to prison) but now you're back. You have rep with the evil factions, but almost none with the good factions. It would be so easy for you to fall back in with the "wrong crowd" and get the bad ending here, but it's actually a HUGE STRUGGLE to turn your life around and get the good ending for the game. That would be a cool use of faction systems.

[@cavios8889]

Someday soon there will exist a game which explores the 4th wall trope wherein a character is aware that their experiences are fiction, except this one would be more than a mere construct of the narrative.

[@hotflakestom]

Parvati is such a wholesome character. I love her. Her personal questline just had me smiling all the way through.

[@captainhostile101]

im so glad i've found this channel, as a programming student this is really stimulating and makes me want to get into game development even more

[@TonkarzOfSolSystem]

I think the most important thing about subverting tropes is that the scene has to work without the subverted trope. Essentially you’re telling a two narratives, one of which is destined to be subverted and thus fizzle out.

[@manfrombc5162]

I love the quick blurb on sequels. Knowing when a story is over is so important. Stranger Things went on too long, same with Fast and the Furious or Planet of the Apes. There are tons of examples in video games too where sequels have no heart and don't add anything new.

[@fieuline2536]

An important piece to this is when you say you’re bored by tropish writing. I tend to be the same (except when I’m not lol) However, I notice some people just enjoy revisiting the same comfort food over and over. It doesn’t have to be masterful vanilla ice cream; it just has to be vanilla ice cream. I feel like there’s nothing wrong with being that person, or the producer who makes content for that person. There’s money in them their hills. My sense is that if adding originality to your work is a huge chore that you do out of a sense of obligation, then maybe being unique just isn’t intrinsically important to you and your process. Maybe that isn’t workable - maybe you have to be unique to be competitive in the market. And maybe a drive towards originality is inherent in being an artist. But I’m not convinced either is true.

[@DarkBloodbane]

I get your idea of subverting tropes, I've seen multiple games do that with mixed results. But I love your final statement about being unique to yourself.

[@Anubis1101]

"a GNOME?! What manner of tomfoolery is this?!" I have a brain cell whose job it is to permanently record and remind me of that line.

[@Anubis1101]

Also I loved the Caladon quest that parodied LotR. The way the Caladon official whines about having to trudge through a dungeon etc. that was the most memorable trope subversion in Arcanum.

[@zigorro3478]

Parvati was absolutely my favourite character from outer worlds such a great character

[@SilverionX]

I have an idea for a world where all the sentient fantasy species tropes are subverted in a specific way. Elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs and so on. If it doesn't come to light it's been a fun thought experiment at least.

[@Hjorth87]

Dammit. I bought Arcanum but haven't started playing yet. Really wanted to hear this vid, though. Anyway, keep em coming. I don't make games but I find the insights so damn interesting :D

[@Hjorth87]

@@lrinfi nah, managed to press pause in time

[@clvr51]

Regarding the 'is subverting a trope a trope onto itself', I like to see it the TV Tropes way: a trope is a tool, and nothing more. So subversion is one of the many things you can use the trope, just like playing it straight.

[@mitchellforney6109]

OMG a villain, or ANY NPC that has savegame powers is the most brilliant idea for something in a game I've ever heard

[@TheFusrodahmus]

Disco Elysium expemplifies this video's message. Say something new about something old, and let the player do the same. It's... one of the most impactful pieces of art I've experienced in my lifetime, and it didn't seem to try. And no, I'm not a shill, just a fan with a recommendation and people on Tim's channel seem like my kind of gamers.

[@blacxthornE]

i love the idea of the villain having save games! we have only recently (relatively speaking) started seeing games being that meta. and still don't think anyone has used this idea. Parvati is such a sweetheart, she's one of my favorite characters in all gaming precisely because she's that nice and it's so unusual, especially in settings like that. she's precious. also shoutout to xena the warrior princess who paved the way for all those amish princesses. i really like the idea of adventuring princesses, because that also informs queens in the setting. you might meet a queen and maybe she just seems like someone who passively occupies a throne but she may very well turn out to be a legendary fighter because of her experience from her youth. or maybe a queen might seem naive when she's actually quite cunning. this kind of thing rewards players who expect it because they've been paying attention and thinking about consequences of what they've seen, but also surprise players who haven't thought about it in a good way because it makes sense rather than coming out of nowhere. "of course! she was once a princess on a quest too... that's so cool!"

[@horstherbert35]

the idea of the antagonist being able to reload would be difficult to distinguish from a multi-phase bossfight

[@doublebassman123]

The game could use an auto save upon entering the boss area and the boss has code that states if the save is loaded by the boss (I imagine the conputer would just bring up the load menu and select the save instantly) then run unique dialog telling you that's what he did. Then after this unique dialog it overwrites that same auto save with another tag to change the dialog each time it detects the number of times the save was overwritten.

[@denniswillman7575]

Parvati is a good example of a character completely subverting my expectations and making me thankful for the subversion.

[@renaigh]

ironically, I didn't find her that interesting to be around, she just felt like a friend to lean on every now & then.

[@almastidyatlov9641]

I adore her, really feels like a friend. One of those instances were I would wholeheartedly do everything I can for an NPC, just to make my animated friend happy.

[@aNerdNamedJames]

I 100% understand why different audience members would've liked Parvati, but at least for me, one thing that prevented her characterization from "clicking" with me was that we never seemed to get any explanation about *why* she's so constantly saccharine and bouncy. We know why Max is such a grumpy hardass, and we know why Nyoka is such a violent drunk, so why shouldn't we get to know why Parvati is such a saccharine frolicker?

[@DanielFerreira-ez8qd]

@@aNerdNamedJames I thought it was a defense mechanism, she's not really happy but she has a great attitude.

[@aNerdNamedJames]

@@DanielFerreira-ez8qd Were there any specific dialogue lines or barks that particularly pointed you towards thinking that?

[@Weasel_Patrol]

Imagine the final boss rage quitting you

[@petehall8381]

Funny thing is, the first time I tried Arcanum I stopped when the 'You're the chosen one!' conversation happened because I took it entirely at face value. Admittedly, I had it all wrong and when I came back to the game I had a great time with it. I had just seen the same types of stories so many times that when I got the story hook from that NPC at the blimp crash, I just assumed that's exactly what would happen and noped out.

[@dinohead2]

Totally agree. Particularly it's really exhausted the "mind control" trope, one of your companions turn against you and has to be brought back. Like they did in the first Avengers Movie.

[@begood4919]

Thanks Tim watched hundreds of your videos but I always learn or get another perspective every time. Thank you.

[@maestrofeli4259]

I really like when the devs do something AND think about the player's reaction to that something and do another thing for the player's followup actions.

[@Pangloss6413]

The bit about the end reminds me of what Parthurnaax said in Skyrim “Is it better to be born good or overcome your evil nature through mediation” or something to that effect I never believed in god but my family is catholic a few generations back and I tend to agree that forgiveness sometimes doesn’t cut it, you gotta do something good to make up for the damage you’ve done, especially if the person you’re making amends for is still effected by it Some people like Bill Cosby or Alec Baldwin tho, they can go directly to the trash can, no further analysis needed

[@SiriusMined]

My favorite part of Ultima 6 was when you found out that you were the bad guy all along

[@CainOnGames]

The real villains were the friends you made along the way.

[@ghbytdsrfhb]

Morrowind did an ez but pretty cool inversion of ur "boss can save the game".... The main city is named after him ,his palace is obvious, itsa bitch to get into, and he is strong AF but if you get there before the storyline wants you there, he doesnt want 2 fight u cause he knows u can load and save

[@tiny_kurgan]

The problem with subversions is that in the hands of a bad or a mediocre writer you can end up with a story or a character that makes no sense.

[@stillness5304]

I was raised on Arcanum and it made a fan of conspiracy theories (not even talking about half-ogres, just the whole Panarii religion), thank you.

[@imxluke]

coming up with video game ideas is so fun. i love to think of ways to surprise people with my thoughts.

[@yaginku]

Not to be overly critical, but repeated subversion sounds like the exact problem The Outer Worlds had. You try to care about any part of the story, and the story goes "haha, you were an idiot for caring about this!". Subversion of expectations is an extremely dangerous tool, because expectations build the excitement and attachment.

[@imxluke]

i enjoy being surprised more so than finding out what i expected to happen be reality.

[@Fanatic4500]

It seems like the key of using and subverting tropes is intentionality - being conscious of what media you're taking inspiration from and how you can differentiate from it. In the modern world there are tropes related to everything, the key is to consider what that trope implies for your world. Dont subvert tropes just because it feels cool, subvert a trope to tell a story in a new way, and use tropes to implicitly communicate information to players. The weird "using trope=bad writing" idea usually feels kind of immature to me.

[@neshead15]

I think when you talk about characters mocking the player for ineffective choices in combat, or for not seeing a bad guy twist coming, that it's more characterizing the threat than the game itself trying to invoke shame in the player. I think this is also good writing in certain games, since a lot of the more memorable villains in games (in my opinion) are the ones that ride the high of their pride and arrogance all the way up until you get the satisfaction of taking them down a peg or three at the end. That could just be my taste, though. I've always been a sucker for villains who are a little more on the Skeletor side, the kind that would relish in it and rub it in if they successfully pulled a fast one on you. I think video games are in a unique position compared to other mediums that they can use the personality of the villain to motivate the player to push forward to the end of the game. It's not like a movie where you want to see a villain fall because of what they did to characters you care about; to an extent, the villain has said and done things to you personally, and I think that adds a neat layer to that. You aren't just waiting to see if the heroes are successful, since in most cases, the catharsis of taking down the baddie is reserved for the player themselves. (Not in every case, of course, but the majority.)

[@sevenproxies4255]

"Isn't the subversion of tropes also in itself a trope?" Well some argue that every story ever told in the history of mankind is really just a re-telling of the Epic of Gilgamesh with some minor tweaks to the story. So I guess we can't ever be completely original. 😄 Imo, tropes are fine. It's how you use them that makes the difference.

[@MichaelWyattMDW]

A villain trying to atone.... Is it too late for someone to make an epic Xena game?

[@BrandonCourt]

Can we make the topic of 'subverting tropes' a trope on this channel? 🤣 Seriously though, being unique instead of 'playing it safe' is super important for innovating and expanding the game industry IMO. Also, the idea of having the villain be able to save game is awesome.

[@BumBumTheBarbarian]

Waiting for the "Hi everyone, it is I... Tim"

[@vast634]

Amnesia, time travel or offscreen fake death and revival are like the plaster to hold a shaky story together. The fix-it toolbox.

[@armymenaroundthehouse]

I liked the way Disco Elysium begins with you as a character who suffers from amnesia after a drug and alcohol binge. Along the way you learn that you were a horrible person, and you can continue being that jerk or you can try to redeem yourself, but either way the game doesn't allow you to escape the emotional damage caused by the person you were in the past.

[@pHaace]

Loving listening while at my 9-5 wishing I was home programming in unreal or something. Also loved the podcast over at play watch listen

[@Postal0311]

I've noticed that tropes that were once being subverted now have the subversions being the norm. E.G. a couple of decades ago rescuing the dragon from the evil princess would have been a cool subversion. Nowadays, I feel I am more likely to see that version of the story than the old damsel in distress version. Evil Superman, or a Superman like character doing evil acts believing it was for the greater good was the rare subversion, now that is the norm. Majorly flawed heroes were rarer, now they are commonplace. Etc.

[@stonemcquark2805]

Bioshock Infinite had the player be the villain in a couple ways.

[@SyndicateOperative]

Not entirely related, but I grew up with a friend who insisted on being called Fat Dan. What a guy. Anyway, regarding the 12:00 point of making the player feel stupid, the most egregious offender, for me, is Disco Elysium. You can nearly solve the murder at the beginning of the game - figure out that the victim was shot, from what angle, and even find the stockpile of rifles used for it. Does the game account for this? No, not at all. You still accuse people of hanging the victim, despite knowing they were shot to death - you can mention that he was shot, but they'll just go "wuh!?", and then the conversation resumes as if you hadn't. Then, in the final 30 minutes of the game, no matter what, you'll end up meeting the murderer with said rifle. I'd already solved it at the start, why is the game trying to pretend that I needed 20+ more hours to figure out where the murderer was?

[@armymenaroundthehouse]

That game's more about the journey. It's a game where you can have conversations with your tie. The murder is less important in the end than trying to come to terms with your own past. In the end you learn that in many ways your character is in many ways an idiot and a complete failure as a person.

[@thebolas000]

My sister dated a guy nicknamed Chubs. He wanted to lose weight so he made sure people reminded him to keep at it.

[@Baraz_Red]

There are MANY RECENT games and movies that portray characters doing something criminal or impulsive who then seek atonement and feel guilty, and they are forgiven (I was watching Fear The Walking Dead). The cancel thing is not simple at all and, no, people do not always react the same way. It varies a lot, case per case. I remember a famous French singer I liked a lot, who became shunned after killing his wife during a violent argument. I still like his art and songs, but is he sort of cancelled even to me: yes, but it is a case by case, related to circumstances. The trope is how cancel culture is portrayed in social media, by conservatives who want to freely express their discriminatory policies.

[@traversingthedark]

Surprised that Tim Cain came up with the premise of Redo of Healer.

[@fyxation]

Totally agree with you about "reveals" that come out of no where and don't feel earned. That's not a subversion at all. There have to be some breadcrumbs, some seeds of doubt, some red herrings! Leave me guessing 'til the very end! If you successfully subverted my expectations after all that, kudos to you. If you pull it out of left field... how is that entertaining?

[@jess648]

Hey Tim! been a fan of the channel and some of the games you and your former associates have worked on for awhile and I’ve got a question that might make for a good video topic. How exactly do you tackle systems design in your games as someone that’s served the roles of being a programmer, game designer, writer and a consultant over the years? do you look to outside sources or your own past work for inspiration?

[@CainOnGames]

The setting and story often suggest the system mechanics to use. If not, I have idea books filled with system mechanics ideas. I’ve never been at a loss for new mechanics.

[@jess648]

@@CainOnGames I appreciate the succinct response

[@aNerdNamedJames]

Given the discussion of people moving past previous ill choices, I think people might like the old Witcher short story "A Grain of Truth". It's the Witcher universe's take on the Grimm's telling of The Beauty and the Beast, including the Grimm's telling of how the central curse came to be.

[@holdensachs8955]

Trope subversion is precisely why the first Witcher book is so fun. More than once, a stage is seemingly purposely set where you think you know what is going to happen, but then things take a sudden turn. The fantasy trope you expected is instead lampooned. Some say Sapkowski then fell into these tropes after the first book, however. That appears to be largely true, unfortunately.

[@MrJekken]

On the wizards in towers idea, Final Fantasy XVI had a similar idea where magic users were a slave class instead of being treated as normal or wise wizards and such

[@jess648]

the final fantasy series has explored that idea multiple times. spellcasters being weaponized for war and gathering the elemental crystals that play some role in most of the games

[@DoobieDoctor5000]

It was Lord Baconator the entire time! *"It was ME, AUSTIN!".gif*

[@Enjoyurble]

No Cancelling. Only Caincelling.

[@scp2539]

12:15 This happens in Wrath of the Righteous, one person is obviously doing bad things but you can't do anything about it short of walking into the obvious trap they set to murder/capture them. Not to be confused with the other person doing obviously bad things that you can call out XD

[@richardkubny5601]

I hope one day you'll mention Kingdom Come Deliverance (maybe you already have, I just haven't seen the video). The creators were big into historical accuracy and "realism" (but not at the cost of fun, as you like to point out yourself). They mostly subvert character tropes in that game by making the characters act like actual human beings and not being defined by a first (or even second) impression. For example, you meet an arrogant, lazy, young noble lord (about your age) who will see you training and challenge you to "compare skills" while calling you names. Classic setup for a rival, but without spoiling much, it might end up differently between you in the end. Since I talk about that game, a related question - have you thought about doing a historical RPG? What period/event would you like to portray if you'd have to make one?

[@JonathanRossRogers]

It turns out that it's tropes all the way down.

[@thomje3090]

Hi Tim, a few videos ago you talked about multi-user-dungeons and the emerging player psychology types ( killers, explorers, socialicers, achievers). It would be very interesting to hear you talk about these in the context of singleplayer rpgs, where there is no in-game socializing, but perhaps there is some online. Or in very linear games with one level following another level in a preset order, does this still fulfill an explorers "desires", does seeing the next level count as exploring it on a first playthrough.

[@oliorogue]

Great ideas all of them.

[@shenotski]

subversion for the sake of it is lazier than the trope itself

[@diewott1337]

Disagree. A trope is easier to write, unless the subversion became the trope.

[@JadeStone00]

One of my favorite subversions in the Fallout TV series was [MILD SPOILER ALERT} the thing with the snake oil salesman Utterly brilliant I know Tim probably didn't have anything to do with that, but I also think that he probably did, in a way -- subverting tropes has been such an integral part of the Fallout franchise since the beginning that it has to have embedded itself into the subconscious of everyone who has ever worked on a related project.

[@marcbraun5342]

11:18 What you're describing here also happens in action gameplay a lot right now and I h*te that as well. Let me explain,...there's this massive wave of supposed hard action games that live on being that but the difficulty doesn't come from hard designed ememies or bosses but lack of information what leads to wrong information on the screen. And I have nothing against difficult games, I love them, but if you fighting against nonsensical and arbitrary design isn't the one I seek out. One example for that is gaps and hit stun. If you see a gap in a good designed game and you have a fast enough attack, you can punish the enemy and the hit stun usually is larger when he or she is in the animation, wind up or recovery. That makes sense, that's a rule you can follow and it's visible on screen. These games however don't show you that, so gaps you see are sometimes no real gaps, so even if you hit the enemy at usually the best possible moment the enemy just does the follow up attack as if nothing has happened, without any sign of super armor or anything. Then you get hit and lose. So next time you have to remember that this particular gap you see on screen isn't really a gap. And it gets worse insofar that hitstun works differently, it kind of accumulates, so sometimes there is a stun and other times there isn't with the same hit, since stun isn't at the threshold, so even if a stun occurs, you couldn't count on when. It's called poise and it runs invisible in the background, you can't rely on it or strategize. Hitstun, blockstun, wind up, recovery, these are things that work, are more realistic and better serve for competitive games, eSports rely on these rules from the start for a reason. So to differentiate the good design is a windy road with the propper signs on the roadside and this is a fairly straight road without signs but you occationally get stopped by the police saying here you have to stop or maintain right of away, which fits my example pretty well. And you're saying there was no sign, no indicator that this is the case, so you have to remember for next time, that's...challenge? Or a test. The good test is a series of hard questions, this however is a series of rather simple questions but the professor goes ha, ha, that may be the question on the sheet but the actual question underneath is this. And you go how would I know that? I could have answered that easily but it wasn't ask of me, not even indicated. Well, next time I know. And the worst thing is, they get away with terrible design because enough people confuse that with a challenge. In this case I even prefer the challenge of online fighting games, it is a greater challenge but based on a system that makes sense and is presented on screen. Plus there are way harder games as the ones from the example that doesn't give you a headache because they're well designed and it is on the player to overcome the challenge, not the bumps in the design. They'll take way more effort, so that's the answer why the former is so common right now...

[@macandcheeseofficial]

I think a great Trope Subversion would be to, have a chain of trope subversions then an actual trope that identifies itself as said trope. Then tell the player that tropes are normal, and never do a normal trope again.

[@BlazonStone]

A boss with its own saved games =O damn what a concept EDIT: Mistyped "boss" as "bass", fixed

[@BlazonStone]

@@knowsomething9384 HAha I'm a guitarist so I guess that made me mistype

[@thebolas000]

​@@knowsomething9384Could work for a fishing game.

[@kotzpenner]

TvTropes is a treasure trove for tropes. Now that was a weird sentence. They explain too that tropes are tools and not necessarily bad, only when they become cliches. It is impossible to create a piece of media without tropes. The active avoidance would be a trope in itself.

[@ComissarYarrick]

Tropes are by their very nature unavoidable. Some are as old as storyteling itself.

[@kotzpenner]

@@ComissarYarrick exactly. Good stories don’t try to avoid them, but use them in their own way.

[@snitch9ine967]

Hi Tim. In the fallout livestream you did with Leonard at Obsidian you talked about another Fallout entry that you had thought of and written down in your notes. Could you talk about that? Maybe some of the designs you had thought of or the basics of the story? Thanks In advance.

[@alexxxellerington]

Hey Tim! Interested do you play your own games or have completed them after shipping them? It’s always interesting hearing if devs have actually played their own games, especially if they’re considered masterpieces.

[@nonono9681]

10:14 This was already done (or its similar) in undertale, the boss fight is called sans and its from the evil run.

[@TFFoS]

I think on stuff like sarcastic characters: You get one free per game. If you have hundreds of NPCs starting with archetypes can be fine. Major ones might need some more development. Also older games get a pass: Back in 1999 not everyone tried to copycat Whedon. Maybe one day we can go back to that era.

[@TreuloseTomate]

The villain from your fantasy game sounds like something from Undertale.

[@Shannovian]

Something about Pavarti really really bugs me. Every playthrough I did I just went out of my way to make her miserable as possible. I just hate her so much. So much. So I guess she's pretty well written to provoke that response.

[@nutherefurlong]

It's a dicey thing. Unfortunately there are some creators out there that seem to make a living just taking Thing and doing the opposite, sort of a meta version of pernicious sarcasm. Like you say, it has to be considered, maybe actually saying something about the dependence on it by using it rather than just use it as the basic structure for everything. If it fits, or its opposite fits, use it, but don't worry too much about things otherwise. Skilled undermining of a cliche (better word, in my view, for when a trope goes too far) can help maintain creative momentum. Same people who rely too much on contrarianism also to rely on cliche to fill the gaps which feels extra bad :)

[@ReZpawner]

Pretty sure Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 already covered the bad guy turning good trope :)

[@randomnerd3402]

In other media, MJF, a fantastic pro-wrestler, had a character arc that is probably the most compelling case of turning a hated bad-guy into the most beloved wrestler in the company. I highly recommend watching any of his promos, especially the one where he reveals why he acts like such an asshole.

[@jubbyquarkret4262]

Thanks guy!

[@grocer80]

When I was in college 20 years ago for English Lit, the whole trope thing was just part of literary criticism and I find it strange it jumped into mainstream culture because of the internet. I understand the annoyance or feeling like stuff is overused or whatever but it turns out humans do that with every story telling medium. Video games having tropes is just a sign it’s became part of mainstream human culture.

[@BigFatCone]

It's always been a part of storytelling and it's pretty much only us nerds who knows what tropes are.

[@lil_r033zy]

11:19 reminds of that ProZD video