The Judgement of Starclan - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis

[@Sunnyfall]

The removal of the "deputies must have mentored an apprentice" rule was a mistake! A few days after the list was posted, it was quietly updated to add the rule back in. I hadn't checked again since very early in the process and I'm sorry I missed it, but I am glad it was a false alarm. However, that leaves us with little to no change in the rules again, save for the "leader's word is law" rule being removed. It remains to be seen how much the series will try to change the clans culturally based on these minor updates, but it is at this point entirely possible that they won't change much of anything, and will instead just talk about how much things have changed or how much certain cats don't want things to change. I don't want that to be the case, but it is possible.

[@iceluvndiva21]

Personally I never understood why the hell they punished both the kids and the parents when greystripe literally points out something that is actually possible. Just change clans or have the kits share time between the two clans! Hell billystorm gives up being a kittypet so that he can be with his family. Silverstream was willing to go to thunderclan to raise her kits with greystripe. Then greystripe literally chooses his kits and goes to riverclan. Yes I get that it's so they won't hesitate to fight eachother in battles but that's completely moot when they make a code that says "don't kill your opponent unless self defense or defense of your clan". Heres how I would have done it: if a cat falls in love with a cat from a rival clan and they have kits? Then both kits and parents are to be considered honory members of each other's clans. The parents are to be excluded from battles in order to protect them and the kits. If one parent dies? Then the kits will stay with the living parent. If they both live but split up? The kits will share time between the two clans. When they are warriors, they will be allowed to choose which clan they want to live in.

[@darkninjafirefox]

The fact that we don't really know what created the dark forest is super interesting to me. The battle at fourtrees was the birth of starclan and I think it could be really interesting to get some idea about how the DF was formed

[@shelbcake]

According to the writers, the Dark Forest was created after One-Eye died, as he was the first official Dark Forest cat. Apparently Starclan decided instantly that 'nope, we can't allow this cat here' and made a place just for him

[@darkninjafirefox]

@@shelbcake on one hand that makes a bit of sense but I think it could be fleshed out further. One-eye was never really a member of the clans, he was a rogue so it doesn't make sense to me that he'd even be considered for starclan (granted they were pretty new at the time) since later rogues aren't even mentioned after death like Scourge and bloodclan. My tinfoil hat theory is that One-Eye died with so much malice towards the clans that it formed a pocket for the dark forest to form, growing stronger with more dead hateful cats to fill it. I think there's a lot more to explore

[@nicolersands]

I can’t find a source for the battle at fourtrees thing what book is it from? Pls help.

[@darkninjafirefox]

@@nicolersands dawn of the clans the first battle and the field guide

[@nicolersands]

darkninjafirefox thank you!

[@xRaiofSunshine]

What they did to Snowtuft, Juniperclaw and Silverhawk was absolutely criminal B(

[@Blaze_the_cat_]

To be fair juniperclaw deserved the dark forest because he tried to poison a clan idk I'd snowtuft existed before the broken code and idk silverhawk

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@Blaze_the_cat_ Ultimately, no harm was done, and then he died saving the life of a random kid. Afterwards, he did everything to fight against Ashfur. He more than deserved his place in star clan.

[@falcon_arkaig]

@@Blaze_the_cat_ Man by that logic Hollyleaf should be thrown in the DF for literally murdering someone in cold blood. Didn't Leafpool and Squrrielflight have a trail if they deserved to go to Starclan? Leafpool, sweet baby Leafpool could have been sent to the DF for... following Starclan's orders and having a Half Clan relationship. Even though Bluestar, famous clan leader, had a half clan relationship too but never got punished for that in the after life

[@KiwiDrawz]

@@falcon_arkaig StarClan trialed Leafpool and Squirrelflight even though they WANTED her to take the kits and raise them not to mention Leafpool asked for advice when she was choosing to run away with Crowfeather and when you pay attention StarClan actively lies to cats for their own benefit or for a prophecy. They lied to Squirrelflight saying she couldn't have kits in order to set The Power Of Three into motion only later on letting her have kits for A Vision Of Shadows to set into motion. Plus to be honest Hollyleaf should have been sent to the Dark Forest since she murdered Ashfur in cold blood and later doing almost nothing to redeem herself or fix what she's done wrong besides not murdering another cat. And I wanna know why BLUE STAR out of all cats was a judge to Squirrelflight and Leafpool when she also had kits in a forbidden relationship also because there was SOMETHING GREATER BY STARCLAN to be set into motion

[@Aspen-245]

@@Blaze_the_cat_ ok so onestar deserves to be in starclan after abandoning his son and endangering the clans by contributing darktails evil behavior because he thought about it and “ atoned “ but juniperclaw who saved the clans after being in the darkforest 𝗔𝗻𝗱 saving a kit and a queen expecting kits isn’t enough for redemption???

[@NewFire99]

The whole "black and white" thinking of Warriors concerns me because...these books are usually aimed for a younger audience who are often highly influenced by what media they consume. This kind of thinking worries me since you see it all over the internet and also because...well, the world is much, much more grey than we often see. I'm afraid Warriors might accidentantly teach kids and others that this is the only appropriate way to think, that people cannot grow and change, which is heavily untrue! And just...yeah. For me it's kinda concerning to me because just...ugh I don't like that thinking. (I expect to be consumed by YT comments but I had thoughts I think should be expressed out of concern.)

[@Spectorwing]

I agree, the 7th rule not only is vital to filtering responsible leaders, but also it teaches kids that they must be responsible in small ways before leaping for larger responsibilities, an important life lesson. I wish they would have added some more actually impactful things to the code, maybe something that sounds good on paper but causes conflict later on, or some warriors want a change and their leader doesn't listen to them.

[@galixypawerpack]

Same I agree with the first two rules being removed but the seventh rule… WHYYYYY!!!!!!

[@yawninglion1677]

I'm genuinely angry about this, I know it's irrational, but it's such a dumb move

[@thelanktheist2626]

I’m surprised you didn’t bring up Frecklewish’s horrid judgement.

[@Sunnyfall]

It isn't actually in the books yet which is its only saving grace. But even putting Frecklewish in the Dark Forest on the website's family tree (especially while leaving out other cats from Mapleshade's Vengeance) is not only irrational but very, very wrong.

[@thelmainoah]

I have an idea, what if mapleshade dragged frecklewish to the dark forest? When she saw her kids for a brief second, she also saw the cats she murdered, and by rage, as she was being dragged to the dark forest by brambles, she got frecklewish and dragged her down to the dark forest?

[@lzrshark617]

Oh don't even get me _started_ on what they did to Frecklewish. I'm still seething over it as both someone who grew up on the series and as a writer myself. There's being too close to your work (due to constant exposure) to accurately judge some elements (which is why test readers and outside opinions are fucking CRUCIAL), and then there's not giving a damn about the world and lore you've created, and paying so little attention to what you're writing that you're not simply sticking your foot in your mouth constantly, but instead shoving it down your throat to the point where your leg disappears. I have characters in my own cast that I want to reach through the page and just throttle them, but I still treat them with the narrative respect that they deserve, personal misgivings aside. Just because you as a writer may not like a particular character you've created, it doesn't give you an excuse to be lazy or sloppy with them because of it. I don't care if they despise Frecklewish, they still have the duty as a writer/as writers to do her character justice. Every character, good, bad, or the thousand leagues of in-between, deserves to have their story told, and told as well as possible. There's so many characters in this series that're just vein after vein of potential gold, yet they refuse to tap them to even _half_ of their full potential, if they try at all (*cough* Feathertail *cough*) Sorry for ranting. It's just... I grew up on these books. They were one of the 2 biggest influences on me as I came of age as a writer, and while I still have respect for the series for what it was to me and what it accomplished, so many of the narrative decisions, lack of decisions, and just sloppy, easily-avoidable mistakes make a part of my soul die every time. It's hard to look at those glaring mistakes without also seeing what those things could have been, had more effort been expended, or more time and care been invested. They have so much to work with, but so many times end up either using it poorly or just ignoring it entirely. They've never seemed to grasp that some characters need more care and narrative attention, a more delicate hand or a firmer guide, and instead go for a 'one size *must* fit all' approach that only hurts all involved. Mapleshade and those around her fall into that camp; most any unreliable narrator does, and they *especially* do when they're in a series primarily targeted towards young adults/younger readers, the majority of which likely wouldn't have as much experience with unreliable narrators as an adult audience likely would. Some concepts and character types inherently need more babysitting than others, are more likely to break things if left to their own devices, and in my opinion, if you're not willing to give them that care and attention and just want to half-ass it purely for the sake of *having* them in the story, you should just leave well-enough alone.

[@herbleave8023]

If she would have gone to the dark forest after her death, Mapleshade would have killed her a second time

[@tjtheentertainer9376]

I always thought it was unfair that the Dark Forest cats that fought against Ashfur weren’t allowed to go to StarClan

[@iceluvndiva21]

Why do ya think I think that A Vision of Shadows & The Broken Code should have come out a bit earlier. Probably between The New Prophecy, Power of Three, and Omen of the Stars. Like so; New Prophecy The Power of Three A Vision of Shadows The Broken Code Omen of the Stars

[@KohakuAmber22]

Warriors needs to take a page out of The Good Place. This would solve the entire situation for whether the cats in the Dark Forest redeemed themselves enough to go to Starclan. You know what other rule was never brought up at all? The entire medicine cat ruleset, including allowing them to have mates and kits. Also thank you for the spoiler warnings. Every time Warrior stuff comes out I can't even watch videos unrelated to the current arc because people refuse to put spoilers. I really appreciate your spoilers so I know next time i can watch your stuff before even reading the book and you'll tell us if we need to come back.

[@keirstengrant4132]

Someone who is fan of warrior cats needs to make an Good Place/ warrior cats Au and/or crossover. I would read the shit out of it.

[@maxliu1099]

Yes! I was waiting for this one. Starclan and especially it’s most recent appearance has been grinding my gears and frustrating the hell out of me. I actually really liked the concept in the first two arcs but it seems that the further we go the more mysticism is sucked out and the more of a detriment it is to the series

[@firehearthorselover1]

in which Sunnyfall lowkey applies abolitionist thinking to warrior cats- and does so very effectively! nice video :]

[@firehearthorselover1]

basically restorative justice!

[@superflyghtheart]

I want to point out that a lot of who enters and who exists Starclan makes a lot of sense if you consider authorial bias - and I'm not just saying that to be mean or anything, rather, several author statements from primarily Vicky have illuminated various reasons as to why certain cats have ended up where (mostly terrible cats in Starclan). Specifically, I remember comments about Ashfur and Mudclaw, with her feeling that Ashfur "merely loved too much", a sentiment echoed by Yellowfang (although later she seemed to be thinking this wasn't a great idea? It's a little confusing but still), and feeling "kind of bad" for Mudclaw for not getting the leadership position he seemed to have deserved. While later books would write Mudclaw as more sympathetic, he's initially...not a very great person! Saying that essentially Tallstar was functionally unable to lead anymore, being extremely aggressive and antagonistic, and so on. But while his situation was complicated, he's still basically like...Windclan's Tigerstar, but not allowed to let his ambitions be seen - he's aggressive about borders, he believes other clans are not to be trusted under any circumstances, honestly he has very similar actions and mentalities and tries to start a rebellion with Hawkfrost to take over the leadership (not unlike Tigerstar!!) But he fails so he...goes to Starclan? Again, this really only makes sense if you consider how Vicky felt "kinda bad for him". Other forms of authorial bias is the trope that people who die angry are somehow unworthy of heaven, this sort of feeling that they need to be satisfied at the end in order to be considered proof, as if their satisfaction with their life is somehow proof of their goodness? This explains characters like Brightflower, Lilywhisker, and Frecklewish. While the series has been taken over by a new team, it seems like they still carry a lot of similar beliefs, mostly only going back and making Ashfur an antagonist because of fandom demand (not that he didn't deserve it ofc). TL;DR the morality of Starclan and the Dark Forest is dependent on the author's own immediate biases, including but not limited to somewhat skewed ideas of the goodness of someone whether or not they died at peace, and how much the author pitied them in that moment. It's a bit messed up! But it makes the series make a lot more sense if you realize the arbitrary lines being drawn are because of personal preference and regurgitating ingrained tropes associated with afterlives. An additional note with Clear Sky: No matter how wrong he was, I think the reason why he ended up in Starclan is a combination of: 1. The author's seeming to struggle to make characters switch sides e.g. if a character is made to be a hero, they will stay a hero no matter the terrible things they've done (Bramblestar), if a character is made into a villain they will stay into a villain no matter how benign or ineffectual their behavior is (I'd say if they didn't slap that whole "doesn't feed kits and elders" just to make an antagonist look worse than the clans because they're struggling to come up with anything else, characters like Scourge and Sol, who if it weren't for that arbitrary thing thrown onto them to make them look like worse alternatives, wouldn't be too much different from the clans). And 2. Having to work backwards from the mythologizing of the clans and the inherent "heroism" they're supposed to have. That being, the clans aren't really allowed to be wrong in any capacity, thus they're roots cannot be wrong or flawed in any way; a "great society" can only be built on the most pure and mythologically huge of roots. With all that being said, I think those reasons are why Clear Sky is in Starclan - tragic backstory doesn't seem to matter in the author's minds, considering how many of their antagonists are abuse/neglect victims (Scourge, Sol, Darktail, Brokenstar, and even Tigerstar to a small extent), however since he's supposed to not make Skyclan look bad by proxy, nor was he never supposed to be seen as evil just "complicated", no matter the extent of his sins, the narrative suggests he is to be forgiven for having this "inherent" greatness attached to him (just give him an awkward love interest to solidify it that'll fix all of the murder).

[@Spectorwing]

I think what separates the mud claws from the ashfurs is the way they behave before and after their major bad deed. Mud Claw wasn't a naturally bad cat, rather his ambition blinded him, it wasn't until after he died he realized his wrong doings and felt bad. Ashfur didn't care once he died, he continued and didn't care what happened to anyone else. It stopped being ignorance and became planned and intended. This is why both frecklewish and clear sky in my opinion, should be in starclan. Their bad deeds stem from ignorance and emotions clouding their judgement, followed by remorse.

[@superflyghtheart]

@@Spectorwing Imo, Ashfur's behavior in Starclan was a retcon, or at least it was a retcon of implications. While in the Oots we don't really get to see Ashfur's thoughts on things, the fact in Squirrelflight's Hope that Hollyleaf was essentially like "well we talked about it and we made up" implied to me anyway that Ashfur's brooding in Starclan was added in Broken Code just to make him a suitable villain. That's just my thoughts I don't exactly have concrete proof though hgifog The thing about Mudclaw that I think also should be pointed out is that while Winds of Chance paints him as more sympathetic, in the first series he would do things such as chase out Bluestar who was lawfully attempting to use the Moonstone, and generally being extremely particular about borders (which despite the series constantly saying that borders are important, is a behavior that the writers will use to show someone as Not A Good Person, such as Tigerstar. Characters who are treated as more morally good will often cross borders because they're doing it for "the right reasons"). Even if you say "his actions were motivated by emotion", his actions were that of characters that the books would usually cast as bad, so why isn't he in the dark forest? Which was my original point - because of authorial bias. I think emotion tends to inform the authors whether or not someone should or shouldn't go to the dark forest tbh - if someone is "sympathetic", they go to starclan. If not, they go to the Dark Forest. I think that's why in PoT/Oots, Ashfur goes to Starclan - because his motivation is something you could twist into "oh no poor baby" - thus the authors felt bad for him in spite of his behavior. Honestly I don't subscribe to the quality of motivation being a justification for their actions, but I can see how the books may follow that philosophy tbh. All of their most extreme antagonists are characters motivated by unsympathetic motivations, no matter the degree of extremity of their actual actions (as bad of a guy as Hawkfrost was and as much as he definitely deserved the Dark Forest, especially for his treatment of Mothwing, if you look at his actual committed actions compared characters like Clear Sky and Rainflower who ARE in Starclan, he should be in there too, by the logic the books set out). I guess in short I don't feel regret should equal worthiness of heaven, but considering the Erins have thrown Brightflower, Lilywhisker, and Frecklewish for the crime of "being angry just before they died", the emotional state of the cat in question does seem to be a factor in determining where you go when you die...But that ropes back to my original point, being: which afterlife cats go into is entirely based upon the whims of the authors at the time, and not by any hard and fast rules overall.

[@Blaze_the_cat_]

What did bramblestar do?

[@superflyghtheart]

@@Blaze_the_cat_ A lot, honestly. Even from the beginning (as in NP), he was a character who obviously had a lot of insecurities over his heritage and place in the clan, but chose to lash out and act in anger, especially towards characters like Squirrelflight when they questioned him or doubted his decisions. The most notable example of this is in Twilight, in where because of Brambleclaw choosing to fraternize with a cat that in Dawn Leafpool said was a bad person to Squirrelflight (as in, he almost attacked and killed her, and Mothwing had to bail her out - if I recall correctly this incident was in Moonlight), Squirrelflight broke off their budding relationship. Brambleclaw accused her of only seeing Tigerstar in him, she responded "well if that's what you think, you don't know me at all" and became distant with him, although she attempted to reconcile even though she wasn't the one throwing accusations. Throughout the book, Squirrelflight tends to hang out with Ashfur instead, finding him more comforting and refreshing compared to Brambleclaw's aggressive and secretive behavior (and in a relationship, you need that trust and openness). While Ashfur is a little controlling and patronizing, it's nothing compared to the way Brambleclaw insults her and belittles her, calling her distracted and kit-like, saying she takes an "easy way out" essentially by not sticking with him, etc. While he calms down in PoT, he becomes nasty again when the secret about the Three's parentage is revealed, literally refusing to speak to her for almost a year, even when she's actively nervous and meek around him. The absolute pinnacle of his behavior, however, comes in Squirrelflight's Hope, in where he strips her of a lot of independence as a deputy, accuses her of going behind her back, and uses the fact she wants to have kits over her head in arguments they have. Even other cats in the clan like Leafpool and Sparkpelt are aware of how he's treating her, and try to comfort her or give her advice. Meanwhile, a group of nomadic cats named the Sisters have settled in, and Squirrelflight (Like Firestar) feels it's not the right thing to do to chase them out, like Bramble keeps insisting, especially when their leader is kitting. Directly because of his actions, Squirrel and Leaf are thrown into a dangerous mission to save the Sisters' kits, Leafpool dies, Moonlight (the leader of the Sisters) dies, and Squirrelflight nearly dies. Bramblestar only takes partial blame for these actions, claiming that "we [him and squirrelflight] should have never gotten this bad". Tl;dr, Bramble is an emotionally abusive husband who uses anger to get his way and this is never really acknowledged in the narrative, as the narrative constantly excuses him one way or another. While the books never hold him accountable, his actions speak louder than his words.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Omg, that thing about not feeding elders, kids or other physically weaker members of a group is done by basically every villain who is a leader in the serie, and I'm so tired of it at this point; I rolled my eyes when fake bramblestar asked to be feed before the queens and elders, as if that was coherent with Ashfur's intentions. It's such a boring shortcut to making you root against someone. Another strong example: Darktail, who also illustrate the whole thing about mythologizing the clans very well. His entire motivation is that he's jealous of how fantastic the clans are and how his father didn't let him experience that. Speaking of Darktail, there is something that has been bothering me from the moment I read the begining of shattered sky. Almost all members of shadowclan choose Darktail as their new leader in the previous book, after the other clans stabbed them in the back and Rowanstar demonstrated several times that he has no clue what he's doing. Yes, choose. Darktail has been democratically chosen by over 80% of the clan, even if it's a dumb choice. Despite this, the other clans still feel it is within their rights to just invade shadowclan's territory without warning and kick out this elected leader to put Rowanstar back into place. Rather than to at least try to solve this situation diplomatically and peacefully cohabite with their neighbours, despite their new political differences, they instead attack the vastly outnumbered kin&shadowclan in their own home. Yet, this act of agression is framed as entirely right by the narrative. It's so strange.

[@starcycle4308]

I wonder where Tigerheart will go after death. Bramble is definitely going to be in StarClan, as much as he shouldn't in my opinion (if you feel differently please lemme know why), but Tiger has been a hero and antagonist multiple times if I remember correctly. I like to think StarClan but who even knows at this point.

[@hylianspots8681]

i had the same thoughts about Onestar. couldnt describe my disappointment when he was confirmed Starclan in ALitM.

[@dreamiinotdream730]

Probably StarClan considering the Erin’s think these morally gray/borderline bad cats can be completely redeemed if they go down in the name of defending their Clan. I highly doubt he’ll go to the Dark Forest because his existence more or less represents redefining what it means to be named Tigerstar

[@tigerpeltofwindclan8431]

But Seriously, Juniperclaw.. Didn't Deserve The Dark Forest.. And I Liked That Starclan Gave Him The Task Of Guarding The Border.. Or Frecklewish XD

[@druthomas3893]

Starclan judge: well it’s time to see if ashfur and holly leaf should be let into starclan, what are your pleas? Ashfur: well, I tried to kill holly leaf Holly leaf: I was fighting in self defense against him. Starclan judge: well this seems obvious, ashfur you will go to starclan and hollyleaf will guard the entrance to starclan and the dark forest. Very fair

[@BroKenYaKnow]

Hollyleaf did try to kill him though. Brambleclaw lied to cover for her

[@slashercat8649]

this is why in terms of morality and afterlife, The Good Place is always the best representation of redemption

[@ccondelli]

If Dark Forest's forever then StarClan must be a lie! If Ashfur can do whatever and remain in the sky! The rules are shades of gray when you keep good cats away When you make the reformed suffer just to be exclusive! This is what Rootspring, Shadowsight, and Firestar should've sung to StarClan. If anyone gets this reference, hooray!

[@AliceB-vr8cx]

Hazbin hotel

[@pikathemimikyu6655]

StarClan is pathetic now. I miss how they were in the first arc.

[@Adrianimations]

warrior cats writers really need to watch the good place

[@thinkingofthings7939]

Correct me if I’m wrong (which I very well could be) but didn’t they add the deputy’s must mentor an apprentice rule back into the code about a week after the website article was released? (As in they updated the page and put it back in)

[@Sunnyfall]

Oh they did, thank goodness. I hadn't checked it again since a few days after the article was released.

[@pikathemimikyu6655]

@@Sunnyfall lol that would have been bad if it was really gone. But that means only 2 rules were taken away.... kinda disappointing

[@Blaze_the_cat_]

@@pikathemimikyu6655 I feel like a lot of rules didn't need to be taken away

[@ironwolf5802]

I just imagined HollyLeaf secretly tell Squirrel Flight, "If anything I can still kill AshFur again. He went down like a mouse."

[@jaceladag]

StarClan has been gradually Christianized over the course of the series and I absolutely fucking hate it. StarClan used to just be the spirits of the warrior ancestors, but over time it has evolved to become to be presented as Heaven. It started out, of course, with the introduction of a Hell analogue in the Dark Forest when previously there had been no indication of such a thing existing. And it could've been fine if handled properly. It could add some interesting depth to this ancestor venerating religion, especially in a world where we see the afterlife as demonstrably real, but they fucked it up like right away. I liked that Ashfur was shown to be in StarClan after his death when that idea was first introduced, but Yellowfang immediately ruined it with her whole "he loved too much" excuse. IMO, StarClan vs. Dark Forest placement should hinge on what living cats perceive the dead cat in question to deserve. The continued existence of their soul does hinge on the memory of living cats anyway, so why shouldn't their destiny? Thus cats like Ashfur, whose crimes were known by only few, would get off scott-free because the general perception of them is largely positive.

[@sandywolfr26]

exactly why i hate starclan now. Before it seem mysterious and that they don't control everything but of course with religious people as authors, they ruined it. Now it made no sense that starclan comes to the rescue of all clans except shadowclan, even punishing their cats the most. Was hoping shadowsight to step down as medicine cat to become a warrior after all the trouble he been through cuz of starclan trusting ashfur. But nope it is sorry but you can no longer get visions or prophecies cuz your connection been cut. Does this mean he automatically goes to the dark forest cuz he listened to ashfur? He has no connection to starclan anymore. Like is puddleshine going to get another apprentice to have that connection now? makes no sense to christrianized starclan and dark forest.

[@BugsyBugYT]

Personally I wish maybe once every few moons or so a fewstarclan cats could watch over the darkforest while not being seen so they could check if any of them had changed. this way they could not act different simply because they saw starclan cats, Then if any of them seem to have drastically changed and admitted what they did was wrong perhaps they would be aloud into starclan? Just an idea of mine

[@BumbleTus]

Really love your videos and commentary (been listening to a trip through time while I work on stuff) you have a great voice and really good interesting points! AND god. With how even Rootspring was like... uhhhhhhhhhhh this seems. INCORRECT but they still didn't do anything about it, concerning letting cats into starclan im just. Arc 7 better have more anti starclan stuff. Considering the title of the arc, I HOPE. but. these books go in circles so much so who knows. also wish they'd brought Hollyleaf in but I guess she's be TOO MORALLY GRAY Starclan is twitter apparently. Past mistakes are all that matter.

[@Sunnyfall]

Great to hear! But yeah the topic of Starclan was...not handled particularly well. I have some hope for arc 8 being an avenue for anti-Starclan stuff but I have a feeling they'll mostly use the absence of Starclan in some clan(s) to prove how great and necessary Starclan is.

[@shinkoryu14]

UMMMM, why is the warrior's website publicly posting the changes to the code that are supposed to be a main plot beat of the as yet unreleased book? That's major spoilertown, and some of us are trying to avoid spoilers for titles that aren't published yet! T^T On to the subject of the video, yeah the whole thesis on "if you die bad you stay in hell forever, no take backsies" is ludicrous. The "no redemption allowed" attitude is made even worse because all the buildup from the PoV of the main characters seemed to be foreshadowing that this was the direction they were headed. Shadowsight and Bristlefrost thought on multiple occasions about the possibility of their Dark Forest allies being allowed into StarClan! Yanking that rug out from under the readers is just bad writing!

[@Sunnyfall]

I do think they're doing this because they probably won't have a full list of the new code in any book, new or old. The rundown of approximately what cats in Starclan were *thinking* of changing might be all we get there. The original warrior code was only ever published in the guide books, which they don't make anymore, so this is a manageable, if less appealing, solution in my book.

[@Ravenwinds]

The deputy must have had an apprentice before being appointed is still there, whoever wrote the article just forgot to add it but it’s been updated since it was originally posted and it’s rule 12 now. But honestly I’m surprised they didn’t actually get rid of it because the editors forget about that one the most, case in point they forgot about it before publishing the article. I think they should have gotten rid of the reject becoming a kittypet rule because there’s nothing wrong in deciding you don’t like the place you were born and the lifestyle and just leaving to find a better life.

[@dolphinsniper]

Honestly, its things like this which really push me towards making my own rewrite of the story.

[@lalas181]

The "a deputy must have mentored an apprentice" rule isn't gone. In the screenshot of the new Warrior Code, it's rule 12. It's just been shuffled around to a new spot. So uh, crisis averted???? Hopefully????

[@Meroaw]

i am really hoping that this gets addressed in the next arc, as its severely disappointing and itd be great if some of the other cats (alive or dead) were like :') hey that was actaully so wrong, we need to change this

[@TheAshfurApologist]

The best reasoning i can believe is, the cats that decided to help and defeat ashfur were doing so to save themselves from destruction, as opposed to just wanting to help save starclan. So yeah, snow boy and silver chicken might have helped fight against ashfur, but maybe just to save their own skin. Remember, these are the same cats who fought under tigerstar, in an attempt to destroy the clans.

[@Cynikari]

Didn't snowtuft say something about not wanting to be in the dark forest anymore?

[@TheAshfurApologist]

@@Cynikari well yeah, he did, but the dark forest sucks, so of course he doesn't want to be there, nobody does.

[@Cynikari]

@@TheAshfurApologist he's mentioned wanting to redeem himself for his past actions i believe.

[@TheAshfurApologist]

@@Cynikari that is true, however it's also mentioned that he does not remember what he did to get thrown into the forest. Maybe he was a baby killer like brokenstar, or a tyrant like tigerstar. He did try to destroy the clans after all, perhaps his past actions were just too much to overcome.

[@hylianspots8681]

I see what you're saying, but honestly, is that not what was motivating the Starclan cats too? this book was going heavy on the fact that the Dark Forest and Starclan balance each other, one cannot exist without the other and all- and that it was Ashfur's ultimate intent to destroy both. So in the fairest reading of this- Starclan just wanted to save themselves from destruction too. But of course, from the story's perspective, this motivation isn't even questioned bc they're the virtuous side with "purer" intentions.

[@maura_edwards]

Saying “Ashfur loved too” much is like saying “adolf hitler hated too much so it’s not his fault 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺😓😓😭😭😥😥😢😢😢😢😢”

[@janekettle3863]

Superb - especially the admonition to remain open to change in others and in oneself!

[@theramdomchannel8329]

I think I would make it so that it seems confusing at first but eventually you understand it to be abstract: The cats who only want peace and have worked their whole lives to help others and obtain that peace finally have it in Starclan. This is viewed by the others as a short of heaven and at first it is thought that anyone who doesen't make it there wasn't good enough. Then there's the dark forest: some cats claim it is a living hell, others claim it is not that bad... and eventually you learn it is diferent for every cat and it can even shift if they change. In fact it would depend a lot of the cat's views of themselves: if they feel guilty and believe they deserve to be alone they will find themselves trapped in a maze, if they are simply ashamed but still want to see their loved ones they may see cracks in the wall that allow them a peek... There would be wandering spirits that simply didn't feel ready to join StarClan but haven't done anything wrong and for them the dark forest is just a forest where they live now.

[@Splashthecatbird]

I was really mad when Juniperclaw didn’t get to go to StarClan. But in my AU I plan to fix that.

[@grekoy]

Finally I can watch this video. I finished the book last night. Darn it! They took out rule number 7! A deputy should have some experience in leading a cat.

[@SproutTalks]

I wonder if the decision to not let any Dark Forest cats in was made partway through writing the last book because A Light in the Mist and a lot of the arc before it felt like it was leading up to a realization that it was a mistake to keep them there, the same way it was a mistake to let Ashfur into StarClan (which launched this arc's whole conflict)

[@nonwolf5015]

I honestly hate StarClan. They nearly sent Leafpool to the Dark Forest. LEAFPOOL. Now, she’s isn’t really my favorite, and she’s a little bit boring, but just because she had kits with Crowfeather… that wasn’t nearly enough to be put in the Dark Forest. And Juniperclaw did try to poison SkyClan, but he didn’t, and he sacrificed himself to save the life of a kit he didn’t even know. And then we have Snowtuft. When he died, he probably most likely deserve to go to the Dark Forest. In the Last Hope, he was no different. But then, starting in Darkness Within, he was a very likable character and he just wanted to be proven right and get a second chance. And then he did what no Dark Forest cat that deserved to go to the Dark Forest did. He got his neck snapped in half, trying to fight Ashfur to hold him off. And I think it was a stupid idea to have any cat who died in the Dark Forest to die forever. I mean, you couldn’t even go to the void like Spottedleaf, Tigerstar/claw, etc. Snowtuft deserved to go to the void, not just be out of existence! And then we have Silverhawk… I really don’t know what he did wrong, but I doubt it was anything like Snowtuft did when he was alive. And he spoke to Firestar, and he kept his promise. That is un-Dark Forest cat-like. But, he did deserve to have his own decision, so if he wants to stay in the Dark Forest, he can. And then Bristlefrost. OMG, her death was heartacheing, especially the last line we ever have in her POV and probably ever will: “It’s time to rest.” Wasn’t that really sad? I thought when Ashfur was ruler of the Dark Forest, then nobody could go to the afterlife or the void if they were alive or dead. But NO, that was apparently not the case. I’m pretty (Is Beetlewhisker his name?) that Beetlewhisker, the RC tom, went to StarClan when Brokenstar snapped his neck in the Dark Forest. So why can’t Bristlefrost go to StarClan and Snowtuft to the void? Thank you for your time. If you have read this comment, here’s a lifetime supply of cookies 🍪

[@book3376]

You would be the perfect voice actor for Bluestar

[@sirbobthemarvelous]

Yeah it's a very yikes aspect of the whole heaven vs hell drama

[@ZirconiaGacha]

I haven't read the latest arcs and Snowtuft is one I like to call the "hell marshmallow". I sometimes draw them with Snowkit (who might have semi-comedically fallen into Ashfur's hole into the Dark Forest) and literally protecting him the whole time. I see them as different cats, and Snowtuft is just that kind of character.

[@tiffanywysong2763]

Forgiveness is up to you not anyone else

[@iceluvndiva21]

Yeah I'm with you on cat hevean vs cat hell. If they can change after death? There should absolutely be a cat purgatory. A place where they work to redeem themselves.

[@CoreySkolnick]

Very cool

[@1Katakana]

I'm convinced that they only made Ashfur the main bad guy because the fans never got over their decition of putting him in Starclan. Can you imagine if the trail scene in Squirrelflight's Hope had involved Ashfur as one of the cats shown as worthy of staying in Starclan with the, hypocrit, judge cats while they looked down on and asked Squirrelflight and Leafpool to pleade for their case in order to convince them? I remember thinking about all the reasons Ashfur shouldn't be in Starclan years ago, and later that day someone else had sent a Facebook message to Vicky, bringing up almost all the points I had been thinking about as well. Vicky said that the post almost convinced her that Ashfur should have been in the Dark Forest, and hey, what do you know, in the next arc, they have him do more stuff so that they can now justify booting him out of Starclan. Although this opens the can of worms that, apperently it's really easy to just lie yourself in. Some moments of groveling and saying you're oh so very sorry, and Starclan will apperently go "oh ok then, no worries. Welcome in", and just sweep any action under the rug. Plus it's the fact that when he 1st appeared as a Starclan cat, Starclan claimed that they had no say in who got there or not, just that the cat's spirit will find its way if it's worthy, so Ashfur apperently didn't even have to convince anybody.

[@peytonlundstrom2235]

Juniperclaw chose to stay in the DF if I remember correctly as a guardian of the border

[@iamphoenixfire]

Using warrior cats? To talk about prison abolition??? Yes!

[@moonliteevee]

I kind of miss it when Starclan had NO trial to see if a cat was worthy or not to go to Starclan or the Dark Forest. I miss the days if a cat did right by their clan, a cat close to them who already died (like a parent or mate) would greet them and lead them to Starclan. It's stupid that the writer's changed that.

[@DragonArbock]

Those are the rules they changed, really? When are we gonna let medicine cats have normal lives and families.

[@albytross8681]

Juniperclaw attempts to poison someone then saves someone: you can never have a peaceful afterlife Hollyleaf attempts to poison someone and then murders someone then saves someobe: yeah this is fine you redeemed yourself

[@meeplol145]

Juniperclaw saved Shadowkit/sight and later died. Though maybe he killed himself? Not sure, I haven’t read that arc in a while lol and kind of skimmed over the scene because the book was just boring.

[@Sparkle8205]

The writers shouldn’t have killed off snowtuft, it was just like *why*

[@mothlarvas5066]

the argument that dark forest cats cant go to starclan bc theyve slighted one or more cats there is also insane because that implies that in the real world criminals should never be let out of jail i guess until their victims forgive them

[@Someperson12532]

2:29 wait- GRAY WING? HE'S BACK? AND- AND (uh, that was a spoiler for dawn of the clans, yes, but a very small one, also, uh, this is also going to be a spoiler, a bit of a bigger one) And-and Clear Sky too?

[@seeagulll]

If correct, FreckleWish was put in darkforest.. she did NOT deserve that, yeah, she called kits monster's or something but watching them drown, she didn't do! She didn't know they even drowned (Also mapleshade is a un-reliable narrator..) there are cats like Ashfur who got into Starclan but frecklewish didnt?!

[@tigerpeltofwindclan8431]

Yep.. Starclan Logic.. Though I Was Surprised At Gray Wing Being A Rude Furball In That One Line You Showed For 0.1 Seconds.. *"There's No Use In Being Sorry Afterwards, It's Better To Just Not Break The Code In The First Place"* Fair Point But.. Just WOW! XD

[@norithenokia]

Honestly, I'm not sure, but my opinion about the dark forest and the star clan judgement of where they should go is pretty much equal to the idea of heaven and hell. If you do bad in life, you get sent to hell, and you can never go back.

[@Shadowfate93]

StarClan are the bad guys.

[@eyeleecat]

a warrior cats youtuber having a better grasp on forgiveness than my mother is really a new low huh

[@projesusantisatan3583]

This is one of the biggest problems I have with warriors. Star clan is meant to be based off of heaven. But from a biblical standpoint obviously it’s gonna be nothing like it. But that’s where the jeweler inspiration from which they get it wrong anyways. Because the actual way to go to heaven biblically speaking is to believe that Christ is God and he came down to save us from our sins and believe in him as Lord. Now start clan works a very similar way where you have to follow the warrior code. But that’s showing to be reckoned and not important anymore. And then the dark forest is meant to be hell. Which hell is a like a fire of endless suffering for those who did not except God when they were living. Now that I’ve explained biblical heaven and biblical hell. Time to explain biblical judgment. You are judge depending on what you have done in your life for your entire life once you understand right and wrong. And if you’re Christian you still go through judgment but you’re letting the heaven but there are rankings which I will not get into here because it is irrelevant to the conversation. And if you receive damnation you’re stuck in health ever for your sins. Now with Warrior Cats it is possible for them to make errors when judging because they’re not God. And the star clan cats are not divine in any such way because they lock the power to do anything when Ashford screwed them over TLDR The warrior cats judgment system should’ve been based off of some pagan afterlife and not the true afterlife

[@jaceladag]

StarClan did not start out very Christian at all, it gradually got that way as the books added more and more lore. StarClan used to just be the spirits of the warrior ancestors, no moral judgement required. IMO, the Christianization of the mythos is one of the worst things to ever happen to these books.

[@projesusantisatan3583]

@@jaceladag I legit forgot that. I wish I kept it the old way it just makes more sense. Instead of trying to fuse in Christianity which doesn’t work when you have this type of stuff

[@FireTember]

Exactly, StarClan are just ancestors spirits which can be very biased, they are not divine, benevolent, all knowing beings. Also another thing Warriors authors messed up when adopting Christian afterlife ideas in the series is that in Christian afterlife, people in heaven cannot become evil and people in hell cannot become good which makes sense. However, Warriors messes that up by showing how StarClan cats can be cruel and vengeful and Dark Forest cats can become good and selfless. Authors should have stuck to just having StarClan being the wise ancestors who formed the Warrior code to guide the living clans, instead of trying and failing to make the afterlife more Christian and complicated.

[@projesusantisatan3583]

@@FireTember yeah I definitely agree. It’s actually really hard for me to feel sympathy for the star clan cats in the broken code. Since I am a Christian. And I’ve been a Christian for a long time it just baffles me on how stupid the star clan cats can be. And how stupid they’re written. Like in the power of three in Omaha the stars they have the three prophecy cats that were prophesied to be stronger than them. In the three never did anything with their powers The only one that really did something with Jay feather dove when did absolutely nothing with her power and lien raise is like the only when I actually see having a useful ability

[@beccacroce7380]

I know the warrior cats facts videos may be false, but didn't Thistleclaw go to starclan until being chased out by Bluestar?

[@Sunnyfall]

That's something Victoria Holmes considered on a whim over a decade ago on her facebook, but published material and even her own word have since gone back on that choice that was never really canon to begin with. Warrior Cats Fact videos love to bring up random off-hand author statements but oftentimes they are unconfirmed in the text or flat-out contradicted by the text and other author statements.

[@aplattner317]

Starclan is not this all-benevolent force of good. I mean, most starclan cats are not necessarily bad, but come on. I cant belive THESE are the people the Clans basically worship.

[@arkenasarfro]

Also like, clearstar is in starclan..? Did he not do even worse things than some cats in the dark forest and then had the shit excuse of "oh... i was afraid so i murdered people and started a war... sorry i feel really guilty for killing all of my friends now :

[@allura9163]

Redemption is a fascinating idea, but the problems that come with it are endless. Like… who is ACTUALLY. sorry for what they did? Are they sorry they killed someone, ended a life, affected the lives of all that cats’ friends and family? Or are they only sorry because they’re tired of being in the Dark Forest? Because if it’s just the second option then they don’t even deserve redemption. However, if they’re genuinely sorry, then perhaps there is MAYBE a chance for it.

[@JojoHutchinson]

I want to ask. anyone who sees this commet commet on this commet that out of brokenstar tigerstar and mapleshade who do you think is most likely to get better.

[@littlestrawberryfaery]

I think the warrior books need to based their afterlife on a more victim respecting. Personally I think there are some crimes that can never be redeemed. But I'm saying that from a victim stance.

[@2simpleofamango281]

I wish the authors had Mapleshade seen with Moth flight and Mapleshade realize what they did. I feel like that will make Moth flight more of a popular cat, and have her help Mapleshade see since they had a similar story

[@yawninglion1677]

Of all the rules... of all the horrible, no good, very bad rules in the code... why did they remove one of the actually good ones? Why not remove the dumb "before moonhigh" rule or something? Augh.

[@FigureStories-wg4qs]

Wwwww

[@jasonpower6578]

I don’t think mapleshade should’ve been in the dark forest. She was left abandoned by everyone and slowly driven mad by the death of her children. This kind of shows should other cats really be in charge of deciding your afterlife?

[@meeplol145]

Well- she didn’t show any anger at being in the Darkforest. In fact, she was glad and continued to be awful in the dark forest, like manipulating Crookedpaw/star, nearly drowning Ivypaw, working with Ashfur to maybe posses a cat, etc.

[@pebbleleaf8642]

I will admit: I love this analysis, but I feel the things you said on forgiveness should be said more on depending on one’s beliefs. My family believes strongly in forgiveness, so it felt very wrong when you basically mentioned you shouldn’t have to forgive. Now that’s just me, but remember, not everyone agrees with the one statement.