Dovewing & Ivypool - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis

[@Moonkitti]

Ivypool is better at doing cool skateboard tricks than Dovewing, which i relate to heavily, so she's better

[@apossum6231]

thats why ivypool named one of her kits flipkit. in honor of her kickflips.

[@Bean_Sheep]

Real I saw ivypool land a kickflip yesterday

[@apossum6231]

@@Bean_Sheep WOLLOW?? FROM COOL GUY LAND????

[@Bean_Sheep]

@@apossum6231 MY POSITION IS COMPROMISED

[@LotusAndGlitch]

Trueee, In a skateboard place I saw Ivy doing a great Kickflip, Last month.

[@darkninjafirefox]

If the two had gotten a proper resolution, the broken code could have been so much stronger. Bristlefrost and Shadowsight are cousins yet the two barely interact!

[@Eldergodintheformofakitten]

I'm pretty sure Bristlefrost and Shadowsight have lines in TBC where they acknowledge each others' existence as their family (Ie. Bristlefrost seeing Shadowsight about to reveal his visions at the Gathering in Lost Stars being like "Oh look, there's some guy! Aren't we kin or something?") but it's really unfortunate they never got to really have a one-on-one conversation, especially since their parents are not only related but have such a packed and tense history with one another. The idea that if Ivypool and Dovewing had proper resolution it might've changed how Shadowsight and Bristlefrost interacted is super interesting and I would've loved to see it, but at the same time, Warrior Cats is notorious for forgetting plot points and character interactions from the previous arc(s), even if they DID have a proper resolution I think Bristlefrost and Shadowsight wouldn't have interacted with each other regardless. But, yeah, it was such a wasted opportunity.

[@TheAshfurApologist]

A lot of family members in Warriors don't interact. Look at thunderclan in particular, almost everyone there are cousins, uncle, or aunts, yet they never interact or even acknowledge each other as kin. Unless you have a connection to firestar or tigerstar, the Erin's don't seem to think family relations matter.

[@Eldergodintheformofakitten]

@@TheAshfurApologist Yeah, all that is true... But at least we have some gems once in a while like Sunbeam and Berryheart & Grey Wing and Clear Sky!

[@TheAshfurApologist]

@@Eldergodintheformofakitten oh absolutely, I love the family relations between sunbeam and berryheart, and clear sky and gray wing being brothers was instrumental to their entire story.

[@Moonrise_Animates]

Honestly I think that warrior cats needs more interactions of cats that are related. Something I noticed is that warrior cats (in the books I’m on, at least) never really acknowledges aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I would like to see more friends and family in the warriors universe. A lot of the time, family members are ignored and barely interact. I’d like to see more interactions of family in the books, like, at least have them hang out. And warrior cats also never really says “aunt” “uncle” or “cousin”. It’s just “kin” lol. And it’s also barely acknowledged anyways. I’d say maybe have cousins interact more like siblings, or have aunts shown more as a parental figure. But that’s what I think.

[@claire-ix4ct]

I always loved Dovewing. As someone who has a hard time standing up to people and tends to think the best of others, I relate a lot to her and her life. She was under so much pressure and still held true to her inner morals and love for others, which I respect a lot.

[@TessuDraws]

Before I read Warriors, I watched quite a few PMVs, AMVs and MAPs about it. A lot of them were Ivypool vs. Dovewing themed. When I realised I'd reached the arc where these two characters would star, I was excited! It seemed like such a cool story line, two sisters pitted against each other! And then that didn't happen. Most of it was just petty-feeling arguments. Then they'd make up. Then Ivypool would be angry at Dovewing again suddenly. Rinse and repeat. I had also gotten the impression that Ivypool was actually, successfully manipulated and corrupted into the Dark Forest's side. When in reality she was never actually on their side. The moment she learned what they really planned, she was horrified and wanted nothing to do with it. There was no conflict, no fear of her actually becoming evil. So much wasted potential... On both of them. But unsurprisingly, a lot of the 2010's Warriors content was edgy Ivypool and just Dovewing like... Crying in the background about it lmao. So I had such high expectations for Ivypool and none of it actually happened.

[@almondtofuchan3157]

My character arc as a person has been going from kinning Ivypool as a kid to Dovewing as a teen 🥲

[@AurumCat26]

same

[@thefoxandthehound81]

what does that mean

[@AurumCat26]

wait why did my reply post 3 times 💀i didn't even notice that

[@Anon_ghost]

@@thefoxandthehound81 kinning means holding a strong emotional connection with a character or heavily relating to a character In this case the user is saying as a kid they related heavily to ivypool and as a teen they began to heavily relate to dovewing.

[@arrow21OG]

I won't lie...Ivypool is my fav character so I'm hella biased, but I completely agree with what you are saying! The fandom has definitely done a "one of the other" kind of thing

[@CheesenMac123]

I haven’t read all the books but I prefer Dovewing (cause I like her name and also because I appreciate the struggles she went through). I think Ivypool is fair in resenting her sister. It doesn’t come from a place of hate, but a desire to just be close with her sister. In Ivypool’s eyes, her sister’s involvement as a prophecy cat split them up. When her sister leaves for a cat of another clan, that just adds insult to injury. As for Dovewing, she was thrusted into a prophecy and her agency was taken away. She was basically not allowed to go to her sister for support. Her sister eventually starts ignoring her because of resentment (for Dove’s role in the prophecy and her romance with Tigerheartstar) which makes her feel isolated from ThunderClan. They’re both complex characters who have made mistakes but ultimately care for each other and want to be close. I think Ivy can come off as a bully, but I understand that she feels betrayed.

[@Moonwolf573]

I respect your opinion, but how is ivypools actions understand able in any way?

[@JlMMOTHY]

I side with neither Dovewing nor Ivypool. Ivypool felt outcast due to circumstances outside of anybody's control, and so she acted out irrationally under a toxic and manipulative influence. Dovewing has no control over Ivypool's insecurities and is largely the victim of them, but Ivypool, on the other hand, is an isolated teenager under the influence of toxic adults. The circumstances around both characters molded how they behave; Dovewind didn't choose to have her powers or be treated like a "golden child" and Ivypool was purely an emotionally vulnerable teenager who just so happened to be taken advantage of by the Dark Forest. They are both interesting characters who are the outcomes of how they were treated by the people around them at a young age. There is no "right or wrong" and however petty and "annoying" either of them was as a child, they both grew and changed into a more mature characters throughout the series.

[@TheAshfurApologist]

Iam a massive ivypool fan, no doubt my favorite between the two sisters. Ivypool is such an important character to the series, but she always had to play second fiddle to doveflight(I don't hate dovewing though). Iam probably getting my hopes up, but I'd be thrilled if squirrelflight makes ivypool her deputy after becoming leader. Both sisters have had their time in the spotlight, but ivypool needs more I think.

[@TheAshfurApologist]

@(faded♤shadow) oh yes, how could I forget to mention that ivypool as deputy would hopefully eventually lead to ivystar, that would be absolutely amazing.

[@cheetahgamer1177]

This is so true ivypool is left to watch dovewing get all the fame

[@mewsmeow]

Hey how’s it feel?

[@TheAshfurApologist]

@@mewsmeow about ivypool? If so it feels fantastic, deputy ivypool is something I've been wanting for a while. Next step, Ivystar 😁

[@-forestproductions-ez8yp]

Ah! Your videos are always so well made, keep up the great work Sunnyfall!

[@qwertyroblox1767]

Wow this gave their story a lot more depth good job

[@sunniwithani]

I really hoped that Dovewing would become deputy and leader of Shadowclan as well as Ivypool becoming deputy and leader of Thunderclan. I think it would force them to resolve their arcs together, as well as I feel Dovewing has been so underused as just a mother after Tigerhearts shadow.

[@CatTreePaw]

She wouldn't want to be deputy. I think Dovewing's just happy focusing on her family.

[@mossfeather7984]

I honestly don’t think being “just a mother” is a bad thing, it’s a really important role, the warriors fandom seems to think a cat raising their children and loving them is a terrible and useless thing and they need to constantly be winning wars or doing other ambitious things. it’s kind of.. uhh??? Someone doesn’t need to become deputy/leader to be important, at such a young age dovewing was forced into a prophecy she didn’t want to be part of to save the world. Her childhood was clearly stressful and she didn’t have much time to relax and just enjoy life. it makes sense she’d like to live a peaceful life raising her children now. And I don’t mean just your comment specifically, I see people talking about it a lot

[@superfanamber]

I used to hate Dovewing, but now I kind of like her. Always loved Ivypool more, but Dovewing in ShadowClan just seems right to me.

[@waddle..666]

Literally the same for me. I’m still kind of biased against Dove because of the Tigerheart situation but at the same time she isn’t THATTTT bad.

[@LittleLion420]

I would LOVE to hear you talk about Tall shadow , Gray wing & clearsky, Tom and Turtletail etc.

[@jayfireanimations]

i used to just like ivypool, but as ive got older i like both characters now. they're such good characters and their opposing personalities and different roles in oots was really cool

[@withercat]

honestly i think the two are more interesting as having never made up, i feel like giving them a proper conclusion where everything is okay now is just, a lot more boring then them being left distant and no longer understanding the other. Maybe I just like tragedy, but it really feels like giving a proper conclusion is a disservice to both characters, making them both less interesting. Ivypool is more interesting because of her grudge against tigerheartstar, and dovewing is more interesting on both loving ivypool but not being able to really be near her for her own mental health. It feels more realistic and has a lot more potential

[@mathnskating]

I lovewing dovewing! But I actually really enjoyed their interactions and like with so much in Warriors, it's really not given the proper relationship development it needed. Both sisters deserved better, and Ivypool would have been so much stronger as a character had her spying actually led to anything fruitful. I think it would have really given some credence to her perspective that it's not all about Dovewing.

[@IzzyMoonbow648]

My two favorite girls!! I used to hate Ivy when she was an apprentice bc in my opinion she was a huge brat- but she really grew on me in the newer arcs. Dovewing has always been lovely tho

[@meeplol145]

The fandom ruined Dovewing and Ivypool for me. Almost everywhere I look people are saying that Dovewing is a horrible sister, never cared about Ivypool, or is a traitor to ThunderClan and they almost always paint Ivypool as the victim. And as for Dovewing they only point out her relationship with Tigerheart and not the struggle she went through with being forced into a very important role as a very young child and not being cared for very well by Jayfeather and Lionblaze. The fandom also got many events in Omen Of The Stars wrong in MAPS, which got me upset. I never liked their rivalry already but the fandom made it worse for me. I understand both Ivypool and Dovewing, though I like Dovewing more, and I hate it when people try to say that one is more in the right than the other.

[@keywashere]

To be honest, I thought Ivypool was annoying because the only reason she suffered through hell was to get info for the three, and then she wouldn’t even tell them what she saw or what they were doing. Like, the only reason you’re there is because you wanna spy on them? You KNOW that they’re bad and you’re already against them, and then you don’t help ur sister and ur friends?? Anyways, I haven’t read oots in like 2 years so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I just really remembered hating both of them lmao

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

5:00 What's Dovewing's Ideology? I haven't gotten to the part of the books where she exists and honestly I don't think I will at this point because I've decided to stop reading the books for the sake of having time to do other things

[@Sunnyfall]

Essentially she can hear, scent, and see every cat around the lake at all times which has caused her to be intimately familiar with cats from other clans and to not understand why borders exist between some of them. She ultimately cares most for all of their safety and happiness, which causes her to, among other things, not see an issue with her "forbidden relationship" with Tigerheart and, before that, to barge in on Windclan's camp to check on an acquaintance who got hurt in a dog attack she heard earlier that day.

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

@@Sunnyfall Thank you

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I don't really care about cannon Dovewing, but your interpretation of the character in your fanfiction is great. Ivypool is also a little better in your fanfiction, but I already though Ivy was quite interesting despite being kind of an asshole.

[@ismellupdog]

I feel like part of the reason Ivypool gets toted as a morally inferior character to Dovewing is that she was recruited by literal Hell whereas Dovewing was recruited by God. And I know that sounds obvious, hear me out: Starclan, in this arc, for all intents and purposes, is Right. They're Correct, not morally, but factually. Dovewing IS needed to save the clans; if she took the completely understandable road of doing what she wanted, pursuing her individuality, etc. it would've ended in disaster. She's a pawn, yes, but a necessary one. As for lying to Ivypool, that's a discussion worth exploring, but it always bothered me that the simplified version of the parallel between the sisters was this: "Person who got manipulated into fighting for hell must repent, person who got manipulated into fighting for heaven didn't really get manipulated as much as her sister, because she literally WAS given heaven powers which were pre-destined to be used for good." This isn't balanced--I feel like it clearly portrays Ivypool as the one that needs to be "more like Dovewing," or suggests that Ivypool is the villain and Dovewing is the hero instead of having them both just be Characters. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but it's like you said with Blossomfall and Tigerheart, it's a bad thing if it's not ACKNOWLEDGED, and I feel like the poor way it was handled led to this idea that Ivypool is inherently Worse than Dovewing--I think it Compounds on their interactions to form this very black and white perception of the sisters. It just sucks that Warrior Cats, until very recently (and even then, not in a satisfying way) refused to challenge Starclan at all. In this arc, Starclan was Right to guide a child into war (when it comes to Fate, at least), but the Dark Forest was Wrong. They can't really be fair parallels when one of them fought on the objective wrong side as far as the authors are concerned. Starclan as a whole would need to change to be more ambiguous, or the Dark Forest would need to change so there was some ouroboros-esque symbolism in which BOTH groups have a more distinct part to play in fate, slightly more separate from morality. The Dark Forest is treated like an underground rebellion and not like the literal angelic warriors who have destiny on their side. Starclan (and by extension, Dovewing) has PROPHECY and fate, which Cannot be disagreed with, on their side, whereas the Dark Forest (and Ivypool) have... evil? Even the playing field one way or another, and the sisters suddenly become much easier to read as more equal characters.

[@lenijacobvaranathu1730]

Great video Sunny! I like Dovewing and I used to hate Ivypool, but now I'm more neautral on her. I do like how you've written her character in POS though. I'd like to resquest a talking video about Rosepetal, and especially her relationship with Sunstrike. I headcanoned that she and Blossomfall used to be bffs but then Ivypool came along and Blossomfall started hanging out more with her and Rose started to feel jealous which was one of the reasons for her turning to Sunstrike. I ship them both and i was so happy when you confirmed that they are together. The books never really explained how and why they became friends so I'd like to hear about that. I'd also like to know how you think Rosepetal felt when she and her bro Toad started to not really spend much time with each other anymore.

[@amberestie6605]

Absolutely LOVE your ending story idea statement. Though honestly? I like the conflict between Tigerheart and Dovewing as well as the conflict between Blossomfall and Ivypool. But I would really have liked to see Tiger and Blossom realize they had been acting messed up. An emotional scene where Dovewing gets emotionally sad and another where Ivypool becomes furious. Tiger and Blossom decide to improve their behaviors. Likewise, I think the manipulation of the dark forest would have been great, brought in via beautiful flower fields and listening about troubles, teaching them to stand up for themselves, teaching them to fight, and just when they thought they were signing a pack of unity for those who were underestimated and pushed away: They become locked to the dark forest. Forced to dream there every night with no escape, train and fight beyond the light where the newcomers would never see them. And if they spoke about their chains during the day or tried to escape. They would be killed and bound to the dark forest forever like Antpelt. Trapping them with fear. Perhaps killing the living cats by dark forest claws could have trapped them in the dark forest just the same. Simply sew doubt and fear into starclan that Thunderclan had all the power and had friends in all clans ready to side with the dark forest. Fear and doubt would stop starclan from being able to appear, because as with Spottedleaf only true, powerful love and faith could make them appear. The eclipse was part of what broke the seal on the spirit world??? Idk, too much fun and plot ideas now

[@liamzimmer5948]

This is a very minor detail to point out but im pretty sure dovewing went off to join lionblaze and jayfeather a month into her appreticeship

[@DragonArbock]

I'm not an over the top Dovewing fan cause of Hollyleaf, but I always felt Ivypool was utterly irrational and hateful.

[@calutulalbastru6491]

Can you make a leafpool analysis pleaseee if you want

[@aliviahouk7018]

I dislike dove for how the fandom is constantly putting her against and going after her sister while loving everything she does and never seeing any flaw in her. And the fact that their story wasn't resolved. I like reading about her. Just can't stand it whenever her name is brought up. She also isn't the best mom. Running away to a twoleg place while pregnant and causing two of her kits to almost die when they would have been safe in the thunderclan nursery if she had just told daisy about her dreams. She also smothers her son.don't like a lot of the things she does or how she's talked about put like her character.

[@jasoncarr8322]

Dovewing and ivypool are both perfect - Like half the warrior cat fandom is them complaining how much they love them! Honestly- Get rid if lionblaze and jayfeather - People want hollyleaf , ivypool , dovewing

[@lovewingdovewing]

Dovewing 🔛🔝

[@eltrut-o9k]

*Throws computer across room because Ivypool wasn't favorized

[@Moonwolf573]

Sorry ivypool fans but I DESPISE IVYPOOL WITH A BURNING PASSION! SHE IS SO SELFISH AND CONTROLLING! Here’s my reasons: When she felt that dovewing was getting more attention she didn’t even talk to her like her sister she instead blamed her and continued to be disgusting to her ( who btw didn’t ask the cats to give her more attention. The dark forest: it took her dove wings so called “betrayal” -Yk her sister who hadn’t said any hurtful things to her without her trying to bully her- to join the dark forest bc the poor tiger star (Yk the most dangerous cat at the time responsible for countless deaths) had changed his heart. So that means obviously that so has the other cats there and that just seems so stupid because she went against her clans back bc of her sister getting more attention…she broke the code bc dovewing was getting more attention when no cat was being rude to her…. So pathetic Now I would dismiss that if it was just an apprentice flaw because Yk she was young but I don’t think she’s grown at all! Tiger wing (that’s what I call the ship: I can understand her wanting to help her sister get over her because it’s the right thing to do…but her behaviour was so idiotic. Firstly,she was spying on her sister and then was taunting her that she was breaking the warrior code *cough* hypocrite *cough* and when shadow clan caught her, she was being so stubborn and selfish! Oh, did I forget to mention, she was threatening on telling on her.. Yk she was planning on possibly exiling her like maple shade…her own mother fu- SISTER! Oh I’m not done yet… later on, when she’s a warrior and a mother, when it was revealed dovewing was leaving, her kin went to say goodbye… oh did I say kin? Sorry I meant her kin except ivypool… her own sister, her best friend as kits, the one who had shared many( mostly negative mind you) memories together and has helped when they weren’t apprentices… she doesn’t say goodbye or give any signal..she just shoved her kits back in the nursery and turned her back on her sister in the most difficult and emotional choice I think she made…wow…just fuc- wow… do I have to say she was super controlling of her sisters life because she could trust her..sure dovewing left to be with him but no…I can’t except that…you wanna know why? Because ivypool, instead of maturing and doing the right thing in saying good bye or say anything to her that will help this situation.. she made the situation worse and turned her back on her only sisters face when she is about to experience something emotional…she made a big deal about herself that she didn’t even consider her kits feelings, dovewings kits feelings or dovewing herself! And yet I’m supposed to be loving her? I’m supposed to think she’s worthy to possibly make the title of deputy? Conclusion: (out of protagonist) she is my least favourite character, she thinks everything is about her, she’s more then willing to betray her clan for the smallest reasons, she was controlling of dovewing and she is willing to put her needs above her own kin…OH AND BTW!!! She lied to not just her leader, but to the whole mother fuc- clan! Why? “Oh I want to be respected 😢” How is she respected by her clan? How did she get a mate before dovewing? How is she still in a clan? Idk! Btw, I don’t think dovewing is innocent in this situation, she made a lot of mistakes…but she is not as bad as ivypool…not by a long shot! OH AND DID I FORGET TO MENTION THAT UNLIKE DOVEWING, IVYPOOL HARDLY FASED CONSEQUENCES?! This was not meant to attack anyone, I’m just pointing out ivypools actions… so yea!😊

[@carmencastillo8110]

I'll be honest, I hate Ivypool. When I read Paws of Stars, I was wondering what you would do different. You somehow made me hate Ivypaw even *more,* (I was hoping the Dark Forest cats would actually kill her) but by the time she was Ivypool, I was rooting for her. You even made me like Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, and Jayfeather in the same way. Hate them at first but grow to love them. So great job Sunnyfall. You did good.

[@jadamiller7485]

They were both being manipulated. That's how I saw it.

[@dianagpc]

I am on dovewing side

[@seeagulll]

Dovewing🔛🔝

[@MarcPlayYatagarasu]

I always hate Dovewing But her Relationship with Tigerhart is not in age terms Bad Cause in human years he is only 2.5 years older than her tha in Warriors Cats years is 9 moons

[@Diamondr11Blue]

Tawnypelt actually had a reason to leave. Dove will always be a massive traitor imo

[@CheesenMac123]

@@Diamondr11Blue Okay but didn’t Dovewing already feel isolated from her clan? From what I know, Ivypool just flat out didn’t talk to her, making her feel isolated. Plus she went to be with cats who were actually acting like a family to her. I’m not saying Ivypool is wrong for feeling betrayed, but maybe if they had actually talked things out, Dovewing wouldn’t have left.

[@Diamondr11Blue]

@@CheesenMac123 tawnypelt suffered from guilt and like brambleclaw had to prove theirselves but it was never enough. Dove had it good and threw her entire family away who cared

[@GweenOfTea]

Idk what ur math process is here but they’re not even a year apart

[@s1lents0ng]

I never liked Dovewing when I read the books, Probably mainly because I ADORE Hollyleaf and didnt like how abruptly they "killed" her to make way for Dovewing.