Super-Heroes Vs Cthulhu

[@PuzzleHeaded_Dust]

Let it be known that the BEST part of this video is Sandy traumatizing his protégé at the end.

[@demogorgonzola]

"what?" xD

[@welovettrpgs]

Ghostbusters fighting Cthulhu is the only episode I remember watching.

[@volbound1700]

Yep and I have a Ghostbusters Boardgame that has Cthulhu and his spawns as a ghost villain.

[@ebonstone2980]

"The Collect Call of Cathulu"

[@cernstormrunner7263]

that episode was my introduction to Cthulhu

[@guapodesperado2822]

Sandy, "no plot armor for super heroes" Also Sandy, "all the plot armor in the universe for Cthulhu".

[@tygrataps]

Great video. I suspect that Cthulu is getting the benefit of plot armor the entire time.

[@PuzzleHeaded_Dust]

It is kinda funny to see Sandy talk about his hero like a toddler talks about their hero

[@guapodesperado2822]

Was going to post the same thing, you beat me to it.

[@bryanstephens4800]

I felt the same way. Cthulhu here gets the Batman Treatment

[@AngryPict]

Cthulhu just has to go back to sleep and wait. On any non human time scale Cthulhu wins.

[@GhettoFabulousLorch]

Additional comment: check out the Justice League cartoon episode "The Terror Beyond." It's literally the Justice League versus "Cthulhu." It's also a stealth Defenders story.

[@johnedgar7956]

Seriously? I HAVE to find that. Thanks!

[@francishwlee]

@@GhettoFabulousLorch There's also Justice League New Frontier, which is pretty nice if you're into silver-age DC.

[@georgekostaras]

This has like the best thumbnail ever. Sandy looks like an angry comic book shop guy lecturing a teenager

[@JanJansen985]

One punch man can beat anyone in one punch because its a comedy series

[@ScileSc]

Not quite while we haven´t seen him go all out yet there have been several opponents he couldn´t defeat with one punch. His power is purely strength based. There have even been some hints to the actual source of his power.

[@ScileSc]

@damsen978 Are you up to date with the manga?

[@martyh360]

I think Dr. Strange would be a good match, as he is a master magician and could fight/imprison Cthulhu before he goes insane.

[@roblancoberto6782]

I hoped Sandy would bring up Dr. Strange or Dr. Fate and how they possibly could handle Cthulhu in a way.

[@kennethg9277]

@@roblancoberto6782 I mean magic is just olde timey plot armor

[@Palendrome]

My wife and I loved your videos of you guys playing Doom

[@madeleinepetersen9338]

Aww. Thanks!

[@cernstormrunner7263]

Imagine if the source of the Joker's madness was that his mind is being influenced by Cthulhu?

[@mollywantshugs5944]

Problem: Joker isn’t actually mad; he just says he is and Arkham/Batman don’t understand him well enough to see that because of his shocking actions. He understands what he’s doing and what’s wrong with what he’s doing; he’s just also enough of a nihilistic bastard to not care

[@M4xPower]

That's the most epic set up to a punch line I've seen in a while lol!

[@jamesv.7041]

OMG THAT'S THE SAME GIRL FROM TWO YEARS AGO?! They grow up so fast - That's when you know you're old fellas x(

[@madeleinepetersen9338]

😂

[@jamesv.7041]

@@madeleinepetersen9338 Haha, omg - it's you!

[@georgekostaras]

Also I’m grateful for a full length video.

[@GhettoFabulousLorch]

Superheroes and horror seem like polar opposites to me. There's a line that one genre must cross in order to meet the other, but it is compromising in the process. If Superman fights Cthulhu, you either undermine the horror of Cthulhu by having Superman defeat it or else you undermine the superpowers and heroism of Superman by having him be defeated by Cthulhu. Maybe I'm splitting hairs. Curiously though, horror has many iconic villains and monsters who are the main attraction in almost the same but mirrored way as superheroes.

[@SuperMrHiggins]

derail the fight if we can't ditch the plot armor, i'd say.

[@volbound1700]

This reminds me of a game that I did with my daughter. Moana (yes one from Disney) was a villain just because the doll is very uniquely made and looks like a villain. She got upset enough that she summoned Ganondorf Amiibo who then summoned an army of bad guys from board games that I had which included Gozer and Vigo from the Ghostbuster board games with a bunch of there ghosts, Cthulhu, Shredder and the Footclan, and Bowser. Gabby (from Gabby's Dollhouse) was under attack and her group with the Barbies had to get the Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Mario, Sonic, Megaman, and a host of Amiibo Nintendo characters to help them. Ganondorf was the ultimate bad guy as only the Master Sword and Silver Arrows could beat him. I guess a quick thought is who would win between Ganondorf and Cthulhu?

[@RekoneInkings]

What are the chances for Doctor Manhattan against Cthulhu?

[@gothamowens]

Superman is highly vulnerable to magic...if any of the eldergods powers could be considered a form of magic, he is toast.

[@boarpsimson8675]

hes not highly vulnerable to it, hes just not invulnerable. thats why hes usually even-matched with captain marvel since his whole thing is magic

[@Rhadiv]

From DC comics, The Spectre or maybe The Authority (It's a team) with all canonicall powers and resources could give Cthulhu a decent scrap. Maybe. Now you can't call John Constantine a super anything or a hero in any reasonable meaning of that word but I think he could get a stalemate from Cthulhu untill he dies from old age at least. He isn't as smart as Cthulhu but the level of malevolence is pretty much even and the telepathy thing would be a liability against him. He has a decent level of magic, a willingness to do anything he has to, and is smart enough not to engage without multiple plans and escape plans. Still, I don't know how he would actually do it. There are some scary anecdotes from his writers actually meeting him in real life too.

[@kadper]

Sandy's the most intresting nerd to listen to(nerd in a good way), he speaks about his topics like they were fact which makes it more fun to listen too

[@sirguy6678]

Fun video! I still see Cthulhu is a concept- unfortunately, ideas are more powerful than monsters

[@bigsarge2085]

Plot twist at the end!

[@rlgood]

Galactus would eat to Earth while Cthulhu sleeps beneath the oceans. (that would suck for us!) Mr. Myxzptlk could take him out with 5th dimensional sorcery, as long as doesn't play his stupid "make me say my name backwards" game. Doctor Manhattan could snap his fingers and teleport Cthulhu into a black hole, assuming science is correct that nothing can escape a black hole. This video has checked off my love of comics and cosmic horror. Well done, sir!

[@steventhompson4840]

Hellboy is the answer.

[@rodClark717]

This was so much fun, a panel discussion waiting to happen. Better ending than most Lovecraft imo

[@stingyjack2526]

How about Dr. Manhatten? I've never seen or herd a hard break down of his powers set, but he covers a lot of bases, including being able to will himself back form his own demise.

[@mc_zittrer8793]

In a lot of ways, I'd imagine the Doctor shares at least some of Cthulhu's skills and toolkit. He's even composed of physically impossible elements, like being able to exist in the past, present and future simultaneously. That actually makes me think of the eldritch. At the very least, he'd be an even more ideal match than Superman. However! Doctor Manhattan is basically beaten by Ozymandias(or loses the will to fight) once he learns Ozy's plan. Granted, it could be a being of seemingly limitless power yielding to pragmatism for humanity's best outcome, but when a quantum-level super is undermined by a genius who's probably about as smart as Lex Luthor, then there's no limit to the ways Cthulhu could break him down mentally.

[@stingyjack2526]

@@mc_zittrer8793 You make a good point. I do think part of why Ozymandias out maneuvered Dr. Manhatten was because the Dr. trusted him. I don't think the good doctor would make that kind of error with Cthulhu.

[@oneoneonefour]

It would probably come down to experience, which is a weird thing to say when talking about beings that can see their own future and past. But Dr. Manhatten hasn't fought anything like Cthulhu before and for Cthulhu it'd be just another fight.

[@sneakyskunk1]

Batman: The Doom that Came to Gotham is a great example of how a story like this can work(although it was not Cthulhu that Bruce fought in that story). Kal encounters gods and alien monsters all the time. He fought the leader of Heaven's Bull host, Asmodel, to a stand still. This was with his light based powers as opposed to the powers most commonly associated with him. He had a sun eater as a pet and it didn't test his sanity one bit. His courage has never waivered. Cthulhu would be just one more alien menace he'd beat the snot out of. Saitama wouldn't lose because he knows he can't. Then again, One Punch Man is a parody so that point is debatable. Well, okay all points are debatable. The only people who can answer this question with any authority are the people over at Death Battle. It might be time for one of those.

[@paulofrota3958]

That teenager looks like she'd rather be doing anything else other than being in this video... Or maybe that's just what teens look like to me these days.

[@madeleinepetersen9338]

Sorry. I was tired.

[@Calthwasanactofselfdefence141]

Hey Sandy, would you be willing to do a video talking about the Necronomicon? I, and I am sure many others would love an in depth lore video on the topic. Thanks!

[@Nightbreed24]

This is so wholesome. Does Madeline play RPGs?

[@madeleinepetersen9338]

I love RPGs! I am the GM for my friend group and I'm a player in two of Grandpa's campaigns.

[@Nightbreed24]

@@madeleinepetersen9338 Nice, the torch has been passed. :) What games do you and your friends play?

[@francishwlee]

Fun video, but Sandy is totally fanboying over Cthulhu. Fact is, the Mythos has been a huge influence on Marvel and DC and both franchises have characters on the level of the lovecraftian gods. Even somebody mainstream like Galactus, for instance. IMHO, these characters were made in tribute to the Mythos, not in order to one-up it.

[@ScileSc]

Ok first off are we talking about the physical Cthulu that was driven off by a steam boat or his true form in the void?

[@Shaderaygun]

The boat didn’t do anything to Cthulhu. If you read the original story it went right through him and he reformed instantly. What happened was that R’lyeh sank and he got dragged down with it. The boat played no part in it.

[@ScileSc]

@@Shaderaygun I see, I read something somewhere about him running out of Blood. But still physical form or true form makes a huge difference.

[@LiterateTexan]

I would love it if HP Lovecraft could time travel into his future and watch this video. He would probably be pretty amused.

[@mbanks7969]

If Cthulhu is punched by Saitama, Cthulhu is dead.

[@madeleinepetersen9338]

I should have argued further, but that's not the point of the video

[@Xoguran]

Alan Moore wrote a "final episode" comic titled "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" in which the whimsical Mr. Mxyzptlk is revealed to be a Nyarlathotep-tier trickster God that grew too bored of being goofy and decides to be pure malice. He basically pulls what Sandy exposed here, uses an army of minions to hurt Kal-el where it hurts the most: he destroys his Clark Kent persona, does bring Lana Lang and Jimmy Olsen to their Doom, murders Krypto... so Superman has no other option than kill this Lovecrafnian reality warping horror by basically splitting him in two through using the Phantom Zone projector and another device that does bring you into a pocket universe. Even if Kal-el wins, he is utterly annihilated as a person and commits super heroic suicide by bathing into golden kryptonite radioactivity, so Mr. Mxyzptlk wins at the end, Supes doesn't come intact with his encounter with the cosmic horror.

[@johnedgar7956]

Great video, folks!! I still think Superman & the entire Justice League would fail; super powers or no, they'd still be driven mad by just getting within a mile of Cthulhu.

[@groovinhooves]

Perhaps Wonder Woman, using her lariat could trigger in Cthulhu an epiphany or existential crisis causing him to will himself out of existence? Super smarts do not necessarily go with super willpower or even good common sense 🤔

[@rodClark717]

The lasso forces truth, Cthulu isn't conflicted his purpose and motivation are pure. He'd keep the trinket to fondly remember her long after the taste was gone.

[@hellfire5108]

Looks like he really likes Cthulu.

[@fulminatus6241]

Wholesome factor of 100.

[@Snake61AU]

I like the one punch man suggestion because Saitama can mimic both natural and supernatural techniques so he would gain Cthulhu's abilities and powers during the fight and doesn't have any loopholes to his invulnerability so Cthulhu would really need to think outside the box.

[@rodneykelly8768]

Cthulhu has green kryptonite for blood, Superman suddenly remembers that he left the iron on.

[@jamaisj]

1) Spidey has taken on various groups of supers. Still out of his league here, but he's a bit more powerful than most. 2) Hulk has proven to be resistant to mind control. 3) Reed has access to the Ultimate Nullifier, which could eliminate Cthulhu. It's on Galactus' ship, BTW. 4) Drs. Fate, Strange, and Doom could maybe take him. Dormammu is on the list. The Doctor (The Authority) and Scarlet Witch are up to the challenge. Odin and Thor might. Lastly, Marquis of Death and Mad Jim Jaspers should be able to take him.

[@therasslintheatre2960]

6:13 well, the thing about One Punch Man is that the entire concept of the manga/anime, relies on the premise that physical power levels of both shonen manga and superhero comics are absolute made-up bullshit that keeps escalating. So Saitama becomes a joke that makes every single one of his opponents a his punchline, he's gonna win without effort, and that pissess him off to no end, because Saitama dreams of having a super heroic fighit against a great evil. But he won't ever get that, because he automatically becomes the most phyisically powerful guy in the room, and that kills his entire initiative and motivation, and treats every fight like a corporate desk jokey treats having to work on his excel sheet, like an uneventful chore that doesn't motivates him at all. So when Saitama enters the convo, the argument of physical power levels becomes moot because that's the entire joke, keep escalating the power level BS until this one prick becomes utterly invincible in the most literal sense possible. The other half of the joke is that no one save for his closests associates will ever know that Saitama's the stronges fucko ever, so everyone in the hero's assosiation thinks of him as a mid-level weirdo at the best of times. Throwing literal ancient gods into the fray against Saitama's bald head just makes the situation worse for said gods, because they're the punchline as well.

[@Ultr4l0f]

One punch man could for sure do something ridicilous like... lifting a chunk of the tectonic plate Cthththululululu stands on and toss him to the sun. Now. He is also kinda stupid, so I would actually give.this one to big C. But as soon as we enter Superman levels its GG. DCs stories are just so over the top. And Doctor Doom defeated several Beyonders living beyond the multiverses. Cthulu just isnt in the same kind of universe. And to be fair, he got beat by beeing rammed by a boat once 😅

[@titian102]

What is dead can never die.

[@DuplicitousDark]

well that certainly ended weird.

[@BSzili]

I didn't expect that conclusion 😱

[@AluVixapede]

"Do you know what plot armor is?" -- I sure wish my table top players knew that. (I do, try to make my games fun and interesting but, sometime my friend... you gotta learn to not drink sewer water etc ;)

[@franthehonest-eyes4883]

I would like a story where Cthulhu takes control over the mind of Superman, Omniman and Saitama they have to fight Goku

[@theknightofbadassness301]

Criminally under subscribbed channel

[@SGT.Sroom-ji1pb]

You forgot about the greatest superhero, the Red Grasshoper! His superpower, is that he doesn't have a superpower. He is, however, a massive coward. If you never heard of him, it's because his show originated in Mexico and was never translated to English. I don't speak Spanish, I only know about him because a Brazilian friend of mine has been showing me clips of him for a couple years

[@Rhadiv]

Yes. Chapulín Colorado beats Cthulhu. Obviously. Cthulhu does the telepathy thing and just laughs to death. That one doesn't count.

[@ultimatecorgi3392]

If we bring video game characters and villains into the mix, there's three honorable mentions: 1. While it'd be silly, Isaac Clark from the Dead Space franchise might be able to take on Cthulhu with the right tools, given that he takes on a planet-sized monster and kills it (albeit with the help of an alien superweapon, so basically plot armor.) Still, that raises the question- does Batman having time to retreat and look up Elder signs count as plot armor? Where do we draw the line? 2. I'd also say that Alex Mercer from the Prototype series miiiiiiight be able to slow Cthulhu down since he's basically a very capable shoggoth who devours the intellect of whoever he absorbs and can polymorph fluidly at will (as simple as shlorping through a chainlink fence, or as complicated as regenerating from a hunk of gore after a nuclear blast.) Alex on a good day might be able to force Cthulhu on a bad day to retreat or something, but otherwise Cthulhu'd still win. Mercer'd be stupidly hard to kill though, you probably couldn't even keep him in orbit and the only thing that kills him for good is getting eaten by another capable shoggoth. He might be able to take down a Star Spawn, but probably not Cthulhu himself (although if he then ATE the star spawn, he'd probably just BECOME something like one and instantly learn a portion of their magic. Terrifying thought.) He's an alien entity that just has the tattered remains of a human printed on it, there's not really much that can be brainwashed. Realistically he'd hide, then literally eat his way up the Mythos food chain until he was powerful enough to take him on. 3. Maybe Gordon Freeman at the top of his game, either with the gluon gun or the overcharged gravity gun. If we consider villains, G-Man could probably mop the floor with Cthulhu since it takes a Kardishov Level 3+ civilization just to build a stasis prison around him (which he prearranges his own rescue from before it's even built.)

[@PhoenixBird9000]

If we're talking video game characters, it's an easy bet that the Doom Slayer would be able to defeat Cthulhu.

[@lancebaylis3169]

@madeleinepetersen9338 is a saint for indulging her grandpa's eccentricities. :)

[@kevinvito8336]

I believe Cthulhu can be defeated by Anpanman. Anpanman's head is a pastry filled with red bean paste. He is weakened, but not destroyed, by anything that can damage his head, such as water or mold. However, he is also easily capable of regenerating his head. He can also prevent damage to his head by wearing a bubble-like helmet. I believe this pastry-head power would mitigate the effects of Cthulhu's psychic powers as Anpanman may be temporarily maddened, but his sanity will be restored when his head regenerates. Anpanman can also fly by means of his magical cape, and launch giant robots into orbit by punching or kicking them. The real ace up Anpanman's sleeve is his anpan. If Cthulhu is hungry enough to devour the entire human race, then there is no way he can resist eating at least part of Anpanman's head. This of course will transform Cthulhu into an adorable plushie version of himself, thereby neutralizing the danger. Moreover, should any of Cthulhu's cultists or minions eat Anpanman's head before Cthulhu gets a chance, they will immediately become Anpanman's friend and aid him against Cthulhu.

[@singletona082]

I'm going to preface this with the opinion I hold that 'cthuhlu is this thing that the only outlook is nihilistic bleakness at your own insignificance there is nothing you can do put a gun in your mouth because that way is at least quick.... BOTHERS me at a deep seated level. WITH THAT SAID. Most 'Heroes' would turn into gibbering incoherent piles of meat if not outright turning to worshiping the thing compounding the problem because Cthuhlu now has HERALDS. My best bets would be Batman, Green Lantern, Venom (alien in form and mind, gives a buffer to the host it's bonded to,) There's others but what you need here is high willpower and or those that can keep their head about them while also not falling into the trap of mental inflexibility. Telepaths? You're screwed. Full on Flat Out. Screwed. Cthuhlu brute forces and either causes their brains to exploded or overwrites their mind with its and suddenly it has people who can broadcast it over wider distances without having to get out of bed. Honestly the Ghostbusters were a solid showing. They knew they couldn't beat Cthulhu, so didn't even try to do more than 'oh hey his awakening isn't supposed to happen yet. Let's hit the snooze button and hope to god he goes back to sleep.' Discussions where Cthulhu is bigged up to this thing that nobody can ever do anything against just paints it as this mary sue thing that is, put blunt, narritively BORING. The idea that he is this existential terror? Awesome we can WORK with that. That there is no way to survive that terror and find a way through (note i did NOT say defeat) is /BORING/ because, again, nihilistic bleakness. If i want Nihilistic bleakness I'll ask my parents their opinions on politics or watch the news.

[@TheYgds]

I think Sandy might appreciate "One-Punch Man" since it is basically a parody and good natured critique of the Shonen genre and super-heroes in general. Unlike other critiques, it isn't cynical, but dwells on the living mundanity of what a super-hero at the top of performance would be like. The boredom of the ostensible protagonist and the constant frustration or obliviousness of everyone else. Its the story of a man who has it all, and absolutely no desire to capitalize on it. The worst part of his day isn't the next monster he has to fight, but that he missed getting to the grocery store in time to get a 15% discount.

[@nickdavison268]

Cthulhu would also know about Kryptonite (:

[@Crylar44]

Very important bottom line.

[@Ditchhead]

Cthulhu got knocked out by a Norwegian tugboat, so the real question is what's stronger than that?

[@Shaderaygun]

The boat didn’t do anything to Cthulhu. If you read the original story it went right through him and he reformed instantly. What happened was that R’lyeh sank and he got dragged down with it. The boat played no part in it.

[@robtheeducator8230]

Silver Surfer and the power cosmic

[@PhoenixBird9000]

The only way to definitively get rid of Cthulhu would be to awaken Azathoth. Do I need to say why this is not a good idea, even if a mere mortal could ever achieve such a feat?

[@shaunsmith3757]

Ha! Great ending 😂

[@jonaskollinger3676]

okay the thing is one punch man would always win any fight, thats kinda the point.

[@mollywantshugs5944]

My argument is that the DC heroes would beat Cthulhu for a few reasons, but one stands out as especially important: Lovecraft’s mythos lore assumes that humanity is weak and timid and would essentially roll over from being mindbroken. The DC operates on ideas like the indomitable human spirit (Batman is the indomitable human spirit personified in a lot of ways), and a kind of cosmic optimism. In other words, not only are the Justice Leagues (there’s technically 2), the Justice Society, the Green Lantern Corp, etc way way better suited for fighting eldritch monsters than anyone in the Cthulhuverse’s humanity, the regular people in the DC universe are also significantly stronger (psychologically at least) than most people in Lovecraft stories. Hell, I think most of the DC Universe’s villains would gladly help the heroes fight Cthulhu since they also don’t want the world to end (and then the survivors would immediately use the distraction to rob a bank or something once Mr Hentai-Face is down) While it’s true that Cthulhu can always just go back into the sea and wait (assuming he can’t be trapped in the Phantom Zone or something anyway), the DC Universe kind of operates on the logic that there will *always* be amazing heroes on Earth to fight the good fight, and that’s not even counting the heroes that are effectively immortal like Plastic Man, Wonder Woman, and in some versions Superman. Also there’s the time master Rip Hunter who could just ferry a bunch of heroes to the distant future to fight Cthulhu again if needed In general, the DC Universe (technically a multiverse but still) is operating on a fundamentally different set of rules than the Lovecraft Universe and those rules give them a huge advantage

[@ThroatSore]

Is the fight against Cthulu aboth power, or psychology? Or something else?

[@georgecisneros5281]

💯

[@Chad-Dion]

Wolverine would not be threatened by a 10 swap teams lol.. but I get it. 1 punch man is just a gimmick basically making fun of anime as a whole... he should not be considered for anything. Godzilla VS Cthulhu

[@sentor98]

if Madelyne represented the superhero side of things, she really should have been allowed to speak more. Sandy got some details a bit wrong,

[@gamera9774]

What about Conan? I know it breaks you rule about plot armour but Robert E. Howard and Lovecraft being friends I'm sure Conan would get battleship level plot armour... 😁

[@joseystrife8780]

I see somebody hasn't read or watched Batman: The Doom That Came To Gotham

[@babygiraffeman]

SANDDEEEEE

[@drskelebone]

Only 5 minutes in, but "from a previous universe." Galactus wins. Galactus is the all-consuming hunger that devours the cosmos. Or, to mythos it: the All-Consuming Hunger; Devourer of Kosmoi. Cthulhu needs a better place to eternally lie, if they doesn't want it consumed from under them.

[@Cameroo]

Cthulhu got scared away by a boat. 🦑⛵

[@paulofrota3958]

Foun the dure with reading comprehension problems

[@Sinn0100]

Okay, so I think you guys are being far too rigid. Now, I am not a Superman fan by any stretch. I don't even read comics anymore, but when I did, it wasn't Superman. I liked Wolverine, Weapon X (Wolverine), The Punisher, and Batman mostly. Having said that all it would take is Batman and Superman to fully cook Cthulu. You have Wane Enterprises and Batman build weapons for Superman. You say a particle beam would mess up Cthulu? Well...Superman moving at the speed of light carrying a particle cannon the size of 5 dump trucks says game over Cthulu.

[@ConManOh7]

QUUAAAKE

[@jackmalin2528]

Agree to dissagree. Cthulhu is stronger than gods of earth gods of earth are stronger than cats of uthar cats of uthar are stronger than dreamers and dreamers can blow up planets.

[@sillylad984]

silver surfer could defeat him

[@willjohnboy]

Lucifer morningstar, darkest knight, dr manhatten, purpetua, cosmic armour superman, superman prime 1m, infinite frontier superman, current superman he has every feat he has ever done canonised, infinite frontier darksied true form darksied, king of hell doomsday, emporor joker mr myxyptlk and the anti monitor would beat cthulhu thats just from the dc side, marvel there's rune king thor, god emperor doom, a fully fed galactus, molecule man, cosmic ghost rider those who know marvel more than me can you please add more.

[@willjohnboy]

Then there is the 2 universes version of god the presence and the one above all.