Super Trainers - How did we get here and what are they?

[@brianreiter5572]

I really enjoyed the story telling. Coming to running after cycling, I found the “cheater shoe” freak out hard to understand. In cycling you would never ban a faster drive train, tire or wheel. Shoes have always been a technical advantage over previous shoes - for example Abebe Bikila famously won the 1964 Athens Olympics barefoot (and there is epic video of it) but he also won the 1968 Olympic marathon in wearing shoes and was more than 10 minutes faster. If a performance shoe technology works I see no problem with it. It don’t think that is cheating but it is all of the other companies other than Nike disinvesting in performance R&D and being forced to hustle. And a lot of runners happen to be sponsored by shoe companies did not enjoy their brand sponsor making very inferior product.

[@SagasuRunning]

As you know, I come from cycling too. Many parallels were made to cycling and UCI about how they control geometries and “the double triangle” for pro cycling. Also endless keirin examples and references… Nike out innovated everyone. Also it was only maybe a year or two ago we stopped seeing non Nike runners racing in heavily modified/disguised Nike Vaporflys… black paint was a big thing a few years ago in running.

[@leendeen8745]

…maybe it will be better when we can just let the techno-shoes race themselves

[@lordstalker93]

Thank you for the enlightenment! Just wanna say, New Balance also came up with their own version of Super Trainer, which is SC Trainer V1 & V2. The SC lineup by New Balance is underrated compared to other giant brand IMO.

[@SagasuRunning]

Yup. I’m aware of the NB offerings. I’m just not a fan of the brand so I will rarely mention them on this channel. Saucony only gets a mention here due to the impact of the Endorphin series as well.

[@Becoming_Better_Today]

I like the name Hyper Shoes. I gives a name to the category for shoes that push past the legal midsole height of 40mm, and might be a little more super than traditional marathon racers.

[@SagasuRunning]

It’s not just the stack height… it’s the unrestrained use of tech AND the fact that there seems to be no limits to what “could be”…. A true moonshot category of shoes.

[@Hana_shorts8436]

Wow..another awesome topic to learn from you.

[@SagasuRunning]

I’m glad it was interesting. It’s a story we are only just starting to see the outcomes of in running.

[@edwinduisburg8138]

Enjoyed your perspective on super trainers trend. I agree that just putting a plate in a shoe doesn't create a new genre but that is because I don't fully buy the 'Super Trainer' category. You also point out that PrimeX can't be a super trainer and I would argue that is another reason why the super trainer is sort of 'phantom' category which is usually dictated by these brands' marketing teams. Some reviewers say Magic speed and PrimeX are both super trainers which should make it obvious this category is a mess. Your solution offers a different angle but makes the genre/subgenre dynamic more confusing but still I find it more logical than how other people classify these shoes. I would rather stick to Race - Daily Trainer - Tempo shoe trio to categorize shoes. I used Race shoes to train, and I used tempo and daily trainers to race from time to time but that never changed the main purpose of the shoes. I don't find this new trend healthy for us consumers because it gives them a platform to capatilize on this trend to drive up their margins IE: Saucony Kinvara Pro I will be looking forward to your next video, thank you for sharing.

[@SagasuRunning]

I’d love to stick to those categories as well. But the reality is shoes are becoming more niche, even beyond marketing departments pushing tech for tech’s sake. I think the “super trainer” thing will tone down eventually. But not until whet is is “next” starts to show up.

[@i.p2088]

I have the Boston 12 and Deviate Nitro 2 but I doubt the need for Tempo trainer.. Use the Supershoe.. They cost on sale like the Tempo trainer..

[@SagasuRunning]

Ya… you don’t need one. You’ve got three shoes, at least, that can do tempo + super shoes.

[@olli-perttikojo4424]

Big fan! FYI i will give my own experince in a nutshell. In 2020 the chinese sent me the wrong shoe: The tempo next%. I am a 60kg heelstriker, and for me this is the one. The firm react heel forces me push forward, the 10mm drop really is more because the front part gives more, while still being firm. My 42,2km PB went from 4:26 to 4:06, after training in these all my road runs, becoming one with it :). Downsides: Strain on piriformis, and somewhat adductors (groin tendons). The shoe is pretty stable, ankle leaning inwards may annoy some. Last 9 months I´ve found out if "real" supershoes help me more. Answer: No. VF2: The Best for 21,1k, after 30km the soft zoomX heel spoiled everything: 3:28. Saucony EP3: Too soft as well, while not so much so. Also, killed my quads in the end. 3:26. PrimeX Strung: Fun as hell, forces my high cadence style towards stride running. Explosive but jarring after 20km, pain on knees and hamstrings. PrimeX has insane potential on speed assist, I tend to accidentally hit 4:05min/km in these with low hr. But no hope for 42,2. Adidas pro 3: No hope for my bumpy big toe knuckle. Sadly I wanna train in Sauc´s Pwrrun PB now. The softness (especially after 100km in a pair of ES3/EP3) makes me drool with pleasure, and the speed assist is good enough. Too much easyness maybe? I use low shoes (Reebok Floatride ene) on my trail sessions, and exclusively spiked, hard shoes for 6 months of icy winter in Finland. (VJ Sarva Xante 2 the best spiked so far, avoid VJ Sarva Icehero). So I´m not spoiled by the softness in the longrun. Yeah, and Mizuno´s pro: Horrible efficiency for heelstrikers, but as a novelty shoe, also very high fun factor for limited use.

[@SagasuRunning]

It sounds like you are really mixing up the shoes and the training stimulus to your feet and legs. That’s so SO important! You have quite a range of experiences there! Also… I cannot imagine running in Finland winters… and I come from a VERY cold and snowy place. So respect! Thank you for the support as well! I’m glad my content is interesting. 🤙🏻

[@olli-perttikojo4424]

@@SagasuRunning Winter running on ice and varied snow is actually what I love more than summer. There is real challenge on winter paths, and the cold weather enhances my endurance. (For my dog, even more so!) The snow mobile tracks make the runnable paths in the wilderness deep into winter.

[@SagasuRunning]

@@olli-perttikojo4424 I grew up in a VERY snowy place, trust me I understand the pleasures of packed snow for running. I actually really love running in snow as well. I don't miss winter AT ALL, but I miss those early AM runs right after a big storm for sure.

[@mateuszmrowiec4265]

Fantastic video!

[@SagasuRunning]

I hope this was useful for you! 🤙🏻

[@kevincheung689]

Do you think New Balance’s SC Trainer v2 belong in this category?

[@SagasuRunning]

Possibly… but I’m not a NB fan so I rarely follow their product closely and they have been playing it safe lately so they don’t get on my radar like Saucony. Nothing strikes me as unique or special about it given the few reviews I’ve watched compared to the models I do discuss. Thus I didn’t include them. But I also wasn’t trying to cover ALL of the shoes in the category.

[@markoljustina]

For sure

[@FenboyTim]

Interesting, great thoughts. I think you missed a key shoe in the timeline - New Balance Fuel Cell TC deserves a mention?

[@SagasuRunning]

The TC never had a huge impact, like the Endorphin did. It might be the last interesting shoe that NB beyond the Rebel series… The TC was a successor to the Pegasus Turbo for many, or what many wanted it to be (as I remember). I also didn’t include the Peg Turbo as I don’t think it was as important as the Zoom Fly or the later Tempo as a trainer. I know it’s well loved but it was quickly eclipsed by many other shoes.

[@tedforsstromjacobsson4160]

I like the breakdown, especially the last part. But I do have some additional thoughts and arguments that do contradict your view on the topic. So, not saying I’m completely correct or anything, I still want to add: 1. Hyper shoe is not a new term, right? It got thrown around quite a bit when we first saw the Alphafly. 2. If the geometry matters, which I definitely agree with. Then Hoka (and in some way Skechers) should get a ton of credit for paving the way in terms of rocker profiles and high stack. I literally saw fashion designers (at Brandblack for example) take the Hoka type stack, put the first supercritical foam in that mold, slap a kind of lightweight ripstop on the upper and have a good running shoe in this mold very early. And then Nike literally stole the upper and a couple color ways. So I just think Hoka was waaay more influential than people give them credit for. 3. If the Tempo next and the Endorphin Speed were super trainers, then why not the Zoom Fly? Tempo didn’t have super foam all through and Endorphin didn’t have a carbon plate. The Zoom Fly is nothing compared to today but it was the first plated shoe you could actually get, it was taller than virtually everything else and it was a new kind of fast for longer.

[@SagasuRunning]

1 - I wasn’t claiming “hyper shoe” was a term O wanted to stick. I just needed to differentiate from super shoes in the video. I do vaguely remember the term back in the Alphafly days after 1:59 and it was being used to differentiate the AF from a supershoe when people thought the AF had multiple plates and air units in it. As something different from a supershoe. 2 - Hoka does deserve alot of credit for running innovation in their early days, for sure. Their ideas come from skis and mint sun running into running shoes were revolutionary. However, I think the impact was across running completely, not just these super trainers. Also the reason for rocker in super shoes is different than what Hoka was going for. Hoka wanted a float feeling like skiing and very high stack shoe shoes with stiff plates/rods need it to help the foot mechanically get over the toe off. 3 - It’s the simple fact they Nike intended the ZF to be a fast trainer, to be used in additions to the VF and a daily trainer. Not to replace the later. It’s an important distinction and why I think tempo shoes DO still exist today. The Asics Magic Speed 3 is a prime example. 🤙🏻

[@nicolaschung916]

Interesting perspective. My current shoe rotation is Endorphin Pro 3 / Metaspeed Edge + for racing, Asics Evoride for long and easy runs, Kinvara for speed runs...and Endorphin Speed 2 as my "super trainers". I'll use them for long tempo runs and "longer long runs" with marathon pace fractions. In a nutshell, I'll be using my super trainers for my most difficult training sessions. Makes sense, doesn't it ?

[@SagasuRunning]

It does. That’s actually a classic “tempo” shoe use case. Perfect use for them.

[@i.p2088]

Superblast is amazing. Excellent at any pace. When I go out with the wife and I have no idea how the run will be I wear the Superblast. Comfortable and stable and can go fast. I will not wear the Boston 12 with her because at slow pace the Boston 12 feel bottom heavy.. You did not put the Deviate Nitro 2 as a super trainer. It's the same weight as the Boston 12 and like it works well at high cadance. I have the Deviate Nitro Elite 2 which is kind of no man's land. Killing my calfs running slow because of the stiff plate and soft foam but bottoming out in the heel at fast pace OR I am landing on the plate and feel it 🙄🙄🙄

[@SagasuRunning]

The Superblast is an amazing shoe. Really unique in the space. The Deviate Nitro 2 is very borderline. I’ve not run in it and I know people love it… but many of the reviews I’ve watched/read paint it a little better for tempo than overall. But you could really make the case for it as a super trainer I’m sure. I may try a Puma finally later this year…

[@craigtsmith6957]

new balance super comp trainer v 2 rivals the superblast IMO should be in that group. A shoe that whjen going slow - even with a plate - feels good

[@SagasuRunning]

I’m not a fan of anything NB. Saucony only gets a mention due to the importance of the Endorphin series and the absurdity of the Kinvara Pro. I am a BIG fan of the Superblast though and have alot of thoughts on that shoe (some videos coming on that later this week). I wasn’t trying to be all inclusive here, more stress some of the important models that are setting some key trends. The SC Trainer doesn’t really bring anything unique to the table, though I know many do love it.

[@markoljustina]

Zoom fly Flyknit was awesome

[@SagasuRunning]

It was… it really was…

[@expeditusyntigii9096]

Hi, I just got the Puma Deviate Nitro 2. What could be the perfect race day super shoe for me to partner this with?

[@SagasuRunning]

I'm actually not sure. I've never run in the Puma. Kofuzi recommends to pair this with the On Cloudecho Boom 3 or the Asics Metaspeed Sky+ for a race day supershoe in his video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmTCdZSJrpyBp5I I hope this helps.

[@i.p2088]

What is your opinion on the Tempo next %? Seems like an interesting proposition for a heel striker and slow runner that can't run in the Alphafly V1 because I sink backwards.. 😂

[@SagasuRunning]

The Tempo was a fast shoe, but I’d not call it fun to run in at all. It was always a lot of tech and rather clunky on foot. But it was durable and for a heel striker it’s an ok option. Honestly though, in 2023… I’d look for a Alphafly 2, you can find some deals on them. It’s a MUCH better shoe and doesn’t have the 4mm drop that the v1 did. Also there likely will be a Tempo 2 coming out AND the Alphafly 3 is on the horizon (which looks it might be a very good option for heel strikers).

[@i.p2088]

@@SagasuRunning Very interesting. 👍🏻

[@markoljustina]

don’t like tempo

[@rof8200]

Running on puma carbon plated shoes and they're so good I'm never going back to normal shoes

[@SagasuRunning]

Make sure to mix in a non plated shoe for foot health. The Puma Velocity Nitro 3 is very good.

[@OcaOca]

Anything with ZoomX is not durable because the energy return dims really fast as the foam compresses and does not inflate back up. React is much more than ZoomX, so daily trainers from Nike are made with React

[@SagasuRunning]

Nike currently makes one shoe in their performance running range with React. The Pegasus. All other shoes in their performance range as ZoomX or some form of ZoomX. A few years ago, I would agree, ZoomX lost its bounce after 100-150miles and was not durable at all. However the currently formulas of ZoomX Nike uses don’t differ from either problem like they used too. Nike has shoe it’s a very durable and long lasting foam for racing and training. However, ReactX could be a good middle path. As durable as React (which is more durable than ZoomX) but with some of the added bounce of ZoomX. We shall see in 2024/25 what Nike does with it. I’d expect to see React X in the Peg 41, Turbo 3 and Tempo 2 in the coming years.

[@OcaOca]

​@@SagasuRunning I agree, and ZoomX is not anything magic, just nike's version of PEBAX foam with some tunings. The inherent property of PEBAX is that it will lose it's bounce back at a quick pace, especially compared with EVA - based React. I'm also excited for ReactX, especially in non-airbag shoes, since I find them more comfortable for day to day, and I've had a popped shoe before. I wish they would return the Zoom Fly to it's durable / plated origins. Zoom Fly 4 is durable with regular react and has a plate, which makes it a very versatile shoe. The Zoom Fly 5 uses less durable zoomX and a bunch of glue since it's recycled bits glued together. Would be awesome to see the Zoom Fly 6 use React or ReactX though. Cheers Sagasu

[@kylestephens9593]

Question, if hypothetically WA change the rules to 1. No more than 35mm 2. no stiff plates/rods what would be the fastest marathon shoe then?

[@SagasuRunning]

In all honesty. If this happened running shoe brands would have at least a year or two (or more) before it went into effect… so they could develop product. But if it happened tomorrow… Nike Streakfly or Ascis Hyper Speed 3 would be the hot commodites. Assume the forefoot shank in the Adios 8 would void it per your points.

[@racingcat99]

​@SagasuRunning If they did change the rules would vaporflies and other already existing supershoes still be legal as records have already been set in them?

[@SagasuRunning]

@racingcat99 The 40mm stack height is rather arbitrary. I’m going to guess it was measured from an Alphafly, as that was the highest stack shoe at the time and the one they ultimately caused all the drama to come to a head. Ultimately I do expect the stack height to change at some point, likely to get a little higher. At least until running brands land on what’s next. As far as records go… unknown. It’s been a big debate. Maybe it’s a record with a * after it. Or a period defined by the regulations. Who knows.

[@i.p2088]

To add to the list.. I run a Stryd long run template yesterday. My standard route. So distance and course set and Stryd keeping me on the right power level. I run in the Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro. My first (long) run.. Walking in them to the point I start is like walking on a high platform with no heel... I am a heel striker and slow runner so my wife was expecting me back in 5 minutes. It was probably the best long run (90 minutes) of my life.. The minute you start running you just bounce forward. Not having a heel is a great idea for heel striker. You just run natural. My cadance was very high and all metrics better than my favourite Adidas Pro 3.. Go figure 🤸🤸🤸

[@SagasuRunning]

The geometry of that Mizuno is definitely interesting. I think there will be more shoes coming out like that. I’m keeping my eye on them for sure…

[@i.p2088]

@@SagasuRunning I saw picture of the Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro V2 and Wave Rebellion Flash V2 their Tempo shoe. Next year their Flash (Tempo) will look much like the current Mizuno wave Rebellion Pro V1 but the new Wave Rebellion Pro V2 looks even more extreme..

[@jeffhicks8428]

tech or marketing? Most of the so called "tech" throughout the history of these highly promoted products is just marketing.

[@SagasuRunning]

It definitely was that way until 2017. The Vaporfly 4% changed the meaning of “tech” in running shoes…. From pointless overlays and medial posting…. To actually improvements that matter for any runner.

[@jeffhicks8428]

@@SagasuRunning That's true.

[@Panos_79]

Thank you, very interesting video. I have a shoe rotation, so versatility isn't something I'm really looking for in my shoes. Combine that with the ridiculous prices of some "super trainers", it makes them a category I'm currently not too interested in. The Boston 12 seems interesting since it is more reasonably priced, although the upper doesn't look very comfortable. I'm searching for a tempo/threshold workout shoe to replace my beloved Saucony speed 1s, and besides the Boston 12, the Takumi 9 are on sale. I've never worn a shoe with "energy rods", is their ride as stiff as the carbon plated shoes (I don't really enjoy carbon plated shoes for workouts, I like a less stiff shoe, the speed 1s are almost perfect).

[@SagasuRunning]

Go for the Boston 12 over the Takumi Sen 9. The TS9 is a race shoe, best for 5k racing (I have a bunch of videos on it on this channel). If you think the upper on the B12 looks uncomfortable…. The TS9 fit and upper will be torture.

[@antonioantunesrodriguesjun2249]

I used to think the super trainers as an entrance door to the new shoes technology. I chose the puma deviate nitro as my first plate shoes thinking it. I’d just finished my first marathon at 52 years old and I have been used puma in my rotation. However, I confess that I did not choose it as my marathon shoes, I did prefer to use a high cushioning one because I still consider myself as a beggnier runner. I still bring with me a “misconcept” that plate shoes are design for advanced runners. PS - forgive my english, I am Brazilian!

[@SagasuRunning]

The good thing that super trainers have done is they have opened the top-end tech up to all runners. Plated shoes are NOT just for fast runners, especially the super trainers. Everyone can benefit from having one (or two) plated shoes in their rotations. Congratulations on the first marathon. Here is to many more! 🤙🏻

[@mattbeier]

I will most likely pass on most of the super trainers because I like a rotation of brands, foams, stack and technology. My current rotation consist of Endorphin Pro 2 (races/workouts), Novablast 3 (easy/recovery), and Rebel v3 (daily/tempo). I also have the Takumi Sen 8 that I really enjoy, but only have about 50 miles left before they get retired. I am leaning toward getting the Adios 8 to replace the Rebels (once retired) and the Magic Speed 3 to replace the Endorphin Pro 2 and TS8. Thanks for your insight on on the latest trends and where the industry is heading. Keep up the great content.

[@SagasuRunning]

The Adios 8 is an excellent shoe, possible the best one Adidas makes at the moment. I’m glad this was interesting and useful. 🤙🏻

[@markoljustina]

imo super trainers are unnecessary if you have faster and lighter race shoe; more important is to do good training, fast intervals (fast shoe not necessary); ..maybe in super trainers you get bigger midsole and better amortization if you run only marathons

[@SagasuRunning]

I do think they help some people run more and that is a good thing. But I agree, they don’t replace training and using a range of shoes for it.

[@a.c6734]

Where would you place the Nike Pegasus Turbo? interested in the new one coming out as well.

[@SagasuRunning]

It’s unknown as we don’t really know the exact makeup of the shoe. Just rumors. So there is really no idea at the moment.