Suspension! Do you want it?

"TAKE IT EASY ... TAKE A TRIKE!" - trike hobo
Hobo steve briefly discusses recumbent trike suspension, some pros and cons, and shows how it works on his trike.
Steve's recumbent trike is a 2021 HP Velotechnik Scorpion fs26 Enduro, outfitted with Schwalbe Marathon PLUS road tires instead of the stock knobby off-road tires.
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To learn more about recumbent trikes, please visit Trike Asylum:
trikeasylum.wordpress.com
To visit Steve's health, fitness, and longevity channel, visit Iron Vegan:
/ @oldmanmuscle
To browse Steve's books, visit his Amazon author's page:
amazon.com/author/stevegreene

[@BryceLovesTech]

I have been biking since the 80s, I switched to trikes 15 years ago and have had a series of rigid frames. I recently bought an HP scorpion with full suspension. Trust me you will never go back to a rigid frame. It’s so comfortable on your back I love it, I used to cringe when I would see any road imperfections now I just plow through it

[@EZSteve]

I had a rigid frame Catrike 700 for a year, and it was fast as can be, and super lightweight, (lots of fun) however, as you mention, the road imperfections really sent jittering into my body. I could feel every little bump, and those chip sealed roads were an endurance test, hoping the pavement would smooth out soon 😄 My HP Scorpion is significantly heavier (48 pounds compared to just under 30 pounds - unladen), so it's indeed a trade-off, but since I sometimes take rather long journeys on a trike, and for me, the extra trike weight is worth having that great suspension soaking up road irregularities. With a well designed full suspension trike, riding time and distance is not dependent upon being unable to tolerate the rough ride. For me, it is a nice feeling of freedom, knowing that comfort is not a limiting factor on my rides. And with my full foot support pedals I now use, even my feet feel great regardless of distance and time. All lessons learned from lots of miles, along with the trial and error feedback over the years. Thanks for your comment Bryce! steve

[@BryceLovesTech]

@@EZSteve well said my friend

[@tomboyd9053]

Suspension was a no-brainer for me. I have bilateral hip replacements, a 3x replaced left knee, and a lower lumbar fusion. I've enjoyed the full suspension on my HP Velotechnik Scorpion + FS26 since 2019. 👍

[@EZSteve]

Hey there Tom, sounds like you have a great trike (of course, I may be biased now that I have one too, haha). This Scorpion rides like a baby buggy, soaking up all those nasty road irregularities instead of transmitting them into my body, bones, and brain. My ICE Full Fat was super comfy too, even with its less sophisticated elastomer suspension system front and rear, because the tires were mega size 26x4.8 inches, which I ran at only 10 pounds of pressure. With your physical issues, suspension truly is a no brainer! Why not be comfortable in life while saving your body. And, with these midfoot pedaling solutions we've all been discussing on this channel the past month, even the added weight that full suspension brings to the table is not that big of a deal because getting up hills is notably easier due to the added power the midfoot position allows to be transmitted efficiently to the pedals. Good trike choice! 😀 steve

[@debbieschwartz3132]

Its an absolute yes to smooth out the ride as much as possible with lower back issue.

[@EZSteve]

Yes, I would imagine that if someone has a back issue that suspension, front and rear, would be the wisest choice! On my unsuspended Catrike 700, every little pavement irregularity was delivered up through the tires and frame, right into my body. If I put my neck back against the neckrest while riding chip-seal roads, and made a little "ahhh" noise, I could hear the vibrations coming through my vocal cords. So those same vibrations are also transmitted in the body and bones, including the spine. steve

[@debbieschwartz3132]

@@EZSteve I've ridden upright my whole life and still am at the moment. My rides have gotten much shorter over the past several years. I've been researching for several years and learning all I can about the triking world. I agree with you about buying quality and spending money on something that brings you pleasure.

[@EZSteve]

@@debbieschwartz3132 Yep, I think that opting for quality and reliability, and spending more money to get it, becomes more important to most of us as we age. Our culture is so into finding every little bargain to save a buck here and there, but the way I see it, what good is a bunch of money if I never use it? I thought about getting a less expensive trike this last time around in 2021, but ultimately said to my self, what's the point? I have the money available ... where would I rather have it, in the bank or in a fantastic fun trike that will last me a lifetime and bring many years of cycling pleasure? I have no idea how much time I have, so I think I'll live the extravagant life from now on, haha. Who wants to go to the grave saying, well, I saved four thousand dollars fifteen years ago on a trike purchase, when I could have been spending those years having a blast!

[@debbieschwartz3132]

@@EZSteve Absolutely right. Buy once buy it right. You can't take it with you.

[@garyseckel295]

@@debbieschwartz3132 Dual suspension nearest under rider's torso is best by far. Huge vast majority ride for exercise, scenery viewing, and wildlife viewing. This.., on bike paths that are every bit as straight as railroad tracks (pun intended). Dual steer wheels on bike paths totally unnecessary. Rider's knees nearest above dual steer tires. Knees do not need suspension. Rohloff hub and 2WD available on Hase deltas!!!

[@garyseckel295]

Yes, suspension is fantastic. Functional, beautiful trike in video! My latest Hase delta trike has adjustable twin air shocks most directly under rider's torso. Even a rigid delta trike has twin tire suspension under rider. Love your videos!

[@EZSteve]

Thanks Gary! I was considering a Hase delta at one time back in 2009, but ended up with a tadpole design instead. I have never ridden a delta, but would imagine they are also a ton of fun. steve

[@Moosey1789]

Subscribed because you added comments back in. This is a community. Like reading the substantive back and forth. We know how to sift the wheat from chaff as do you.

[@EZSteve]

Glad to have you! I just got burned out for a while on the time commitment of answering comments and questions on my two KZbin channels and my other websites. But, like you, I eventually missed the community interactions, so decided to get back into the mix. I still have comments off on my Trike Asylum website, which I am supporting to a much lesser degree these days than I was a few years ago, but I wanted to foster triker interaction on this channel, so folks could stay in touch. I need to figure out how to get the comments back on for the entire channel however because just turning them back on only has handled the ones I posted since allowing commentary, but all the older ones are still off (there must be a way to do them all ... just have to figure it out). One aspect in my decision to turn them off was that on a bicycle review I did over two years ago, which currently has over 37,000 views, was getting so many that I was regularly answering questions for riders who were interested in the bike, and it seemed like too much of my time was being consumed by it. Anyway, long sob story aside, haha, they are on now, and will remain so. Thanks for your input! steve

[@nsixvl]

Okay suspension is why your Catalyst pedals work for you! I have an old Catrike 700. Actually the ride is smoother than my TT which is up for sale. That's why I put straps on my Catalyst pedals. See my photos on your other video. For me suspension is hypothetical. I can't afford a suspended trike anytime soon.

[@EZSteve]

Sure enough, the amount of money these trikes cost is quite intimidating, and out of reach of many cyclists. They aren't cheap, that's for sure. My 2014 Catrike 700 was a super fun trike, but the rigid design, while maximizing power output to the road, also maximized the road vibrations into my body, bones, and brain, haha. I think you are right, with a rigid trike, bumps and irregularities are more pronounced, thereby jarring the foot off the pedals easier than on a suspended trike, which absorbs the bumps, allowing the foot to remain in contact better. Still, even with this suspension, my foot occasionally moves from the "sweet spot" position midfoot, but usually if the chain slips off a rear cog, causing the pedals to lurch forward unexpectedly. Most of the time, it all works fine. I saw your photos, and the straps seem like a good solution. steve

[@derykmacleod4979]

I have a tera trike rambler and I kind of regret not getting one with some suspension...next trike I will because I like riding off road and even road riding suspension helps

[@EZSteve]

Hi Deryk, I've had both rigid and suspended trikes, and both kinds are fun, but generally I prefer suspension. On my ICE Full Fat off-road trike, the full suspension was absolutely critical, otherwise the rugged trail riding would have been a miserable and painful endurance experience. On the other hand, on my Catrike 700 speed trike, the lack of suspension kept the trike at just under 30 pounds, and transferred every bit of pedaling energy I put into the pedals for maximum speed on the road. Overall however, I agree with your assessment that suspension is just nice to have for long term comfort. I got into triking as an automobile alternative, and began taking cross country trips right out of the box, so suspension was essential when loaded down with panniers, and riding every day for days on end. That first trike only had rear suspension, but it made the ride quite acceptable. I have also toured on a rigid trike, and while it was easy to make more mileage due to the lighter weight of the trike and baggage, it was quite jittery on road surfaces that were less than ideal, which is a lot. I have always been a proponent of getting the best trike possible right at first, rather than acquiring a trike based on saving money, and then later realizing that I should have spent the extra money up front to get what I would ultimately prefer for the long run. It actually costs more to trade up later than to just get the best choice first. Recumbent trikes are not inexpensive, that much is certain, so we trikers do end up usually spending more money over time than the typical bicyclist spends. I think you will be much happier with a suspended trike Deryk once you get one. They are just more comfortable, both on road and off, and the more comfortable a trike is, the more you will be inclined to ride it, and ride it for longer distances and times. I use the motorized world as a comparison. Would I buy a motorcycle without suspension? Would I buy a car or truck without suspension? Of course not. It is unthinkable. No one would want a rigid car, truck, or motorcycle. I used to race motorcycles in the desert of southern California years ago. If there had been no suspension on my motorcycles, riding off road would not have been an activity I would have even consider doing. The primary reasons trikes began their existence without suspension is because: 1) bicycles are typically not suspended, so it was just accepted by riders in the human powered world, 2) trikes are heavier than bikes, so keeping the weight down can be achieved by sticking with the status quo of rigid cycles, 3) it is far less expensive and easier for manufacturers to produce unsuspended trikes than to engineer suspension for the trike, and 4) makers of trikes can sell them for considerably less money when trikes are simply a frame with wheels, a seat, and pedals. Rigid trikes are still produced primarily because they are less expensive to purchase, and therefore the market can include riders who could otherwise not afford a trike with suspension. Expanding the rider base with a wide variety of designs and options is good for manufacturers making money, for buyers being able to afford a basic, no frills, trike, and for expanding the recumbent triking community, which is desirable for the community as a whole. steve

[@KutWrite]

Steve, you are such a quirky and likeable character. Analytical mind, too. Subbing! Have you heard of the suspended Steintrike Wild One?

[@EZSteve]

Hey, thanks for the comment. Yep, I am a rather odd fellow, quirky, and unpredictable ... Life is too short to be normal, haha, and I enjoy doing the bizarre sides of things now and then (mostly always ;-) Yes, I know of the Steintriks Wild One, but only through their videos on the website and KZbin. I have never ridden one, or been on one for that matter. They appear to be quite intricate and advanced in their design and suspension. I would imagine the ride is superb! steve

[@larryjustice299]

I bought a new Scorpion 2 weeks and the suspension is awesome, however, the stock seat (Ergo Mesh) is so uncomfortable it negates the suspension I paid for so dearly. To make it worse I called to purchase a “premium” seat and was told the factory was hoarding their stock for new bikes. My HP Scorpion was TWO (2) days when I called the factory as all the US dealers either would sell the upgraded seat or out of stock. I would never buy an HP Velotechnik product again due to their lack of concern for my issue an failure to have a manager call back as I requested. I would believe they would fail to honor a factory defect with the non existent customer service I received.

[@EZSteve]

I'm sorry for your experience! I know when I got my Scorpion in 2021, wait times were long due to the worldwide supply chain problems that have been going on for so long now. I had to wait a long time also just to get the complete two-piece rack. I have the stock ergo-mesh seat with the foam inserts in it, and it is working well for me. I looked at the premium seat, but decided against getting one because I was happy with what I had. The premium has that adjustment capability as I recall in the joint between the seat back and the seat portion. I do not understand why HP would not be able to sell you an upgrade to the premium seat however - unless the supply chain problems are such that they can only get enough to equip the trikes that have not yet been sold. If this is the case, then I would imagine getting one would be doable down the road sometime, but if your current seat is not working for you, that means less time riding. You might try giving Hostel Shoppe in Wisconsin at call at [phone] to see if they have a premium seat in stock, or that can be ordered, for you. Hostel Shoppe is where I purchased my Scorpion, and Jesse is a great gal who will do her best to make sure riders are satisfied. She has been pretty good at ferreting out answers about trike stuff through the years. Tell her Steve Greene of Trike Asylum sent you to locate your seat. I have no idea if she can get one, but it's certainly worth a try at least. I have also located the seat at this link, but I do not know if it is in stock - they should be able to give you the straight scoop, one way or the other,: angletech-cycles.myshopify.com/products/hp-ergomesh-premium-seat?variant=36877944783016 The HP Scorpions are fantastic trikes, and while customer service surely can be an impediment at times, my recommendation would be to not let your negative experience in that regard influence your decisions about the trike itself. It is one of the best designed recumbent tricycles money can buy, and the engineering and build quality are absolutely superb. Best of luck in your search Larry! steve

[@trikesalot771]

@@EZSteve When I purchased my Scorpion Enduro, they just released the Ergo Mesh Premium seat ($299.00 adder) I bit the bullet, ordered the seat and man am I glad I did, with that seat and the suspension the ride is unbelievably smooth and soft even if I"m off road!

[@EZSteve]

@@trikesalot771 I got the standard padded seat on my HP Scorpion Enduro, which is not as nice as your upgraded seat, but I tell you what, it is SUPERIOR to my old ICE Qnt seat, which was nothing but suspended mesh. I am envious, haha. Do you know how it responds to getting wet in rain? Or do you know if it camp worthy sitting overnight next to a tent in the rain? steve

[@trikesalot771]

@@EZSteve Well, let me say this, I live in Arizona, and I think that says it all, not much rain to worry about. I do remember in the press release they said they did a lot of research when picking fabric/materials with water/moisture resistance a major concern, able to handle human sweat and washing!!

[@EZSteve]

@@trikesalot771 So far, I have not even had my padded basic seat in the rain, so I can't even speak to its resistance to water. I might be more inclined however to cover this seat at night at camps just in case. On my simple ICE mesh seat, I never covered it, and just kept a small swatch of chamois in my bags to wipe water off it in the mornings if it rained the night before. With plain mesh, the water just went through the openings, but with this padding, it will not, but even if it doesn't soak in, I think I'll want to wipe it dry before I sit on it if it did get wet. steve

[@The-GreenHornet]

I'm a tough guy with a rigid frame with 1.35 tires. Catrike Expedition with marathon plus tires. I sit on a memory foam double pads on my seat to soak up some bumps. I don't want WEIGHT

[@The3wheelin]

Then you'd hate my set-up...I added electric...really puts on the weight...

[@EZSteve]

Yeah, I agree that my Catrike 700 was a wonderfully light trike, at slightly under 30 pounds, and I loved every minute riding on it. It was fast, light, and a kick to ride. My Pacific Coast ride on it was lots of fun because the lightweight trike and pannier system allowed me to make better time than before, and it made the mountains easier to get up. But of course, there are pros and cons to everything in life, and yes, that rigid trike was very jittery on less-than-stellar pavement surfaces. I really didn't mind it however because the trike was so much fun to ride. I originally had the super narrow and fast Schwalbe Durano tires on it that come from the factory, but changed them out to Schwalbe Marathon PLUS tires for a couple of reasons: 1) the Marathon PLUS tires are the best for riders who never want flats ... never had a flat yet since 2009, and 2) they offer a little more comfort because of their larger size and added rubber. And contrary to what the general trike community leads us to believe, I was still blazingly fast even without the Duranos. If there is a speed hit, it is so minimal that I could certainly not feel or realize it. I could not tell the difference in my speed, but I could feel a bit more cushion on chip-seal type pavements. It was worth the trade-off (if there is one) because I don't want flats. Yep, I was a tough guy for a while too, haha ... I am glad to see you picked up on my little touch of humor in that opening 😄 steve

[@DemiGod..]

When I get a trike, will probably go for one setup like my endurance bicycle, polymer suspension on the rear which you don't notice apart from bumbs being softer and no suspension on the front, bumps taken car of by a light grip.

[@EZSteve]

Trikes are definitely less expensive with less sophisticated suspension, partial suspension, or no suspension at all. I've had all three kinds of trikes, so personal experience with them all. My first trike had simple and inexpensive elastomer suspension in the rear only, with no suspension in the front. My second trike had no suspension front or rear (BIG difference by the way in ride quality). My third trike had elastomer suspension front and rear. And my current trike has sophisticated (and expensive) suspension front and rear, which really upped the cost over one like this that has no suspension. This is a very personal decision, which depends upon factors like one's goals and intended uses for their trikes, as well as how much money one has to spend. This decision is similar to that of whether to buy a trike with direct or indirect steering, the latter of which costs the manufacturer more to engineer and develop, thereby costing the rider more to purchase the vehicle, with indirect steering being the safer of the two types at high downhill speeds (I have also had both types of steering on my trikes over the years).. steve

[@DemiGod..]

@@EZSteve I think the problem is that you won't know till you try it. With regard to bicycles, I found the ride on an aluminium bike too harsh and probably would have given up cycling if I hadnt put suspension on it. I asssume that a trike with no suspension will be alot less harsh due to the seat

[@EZSteve]

@@DemiGod.. You're exactly right ... you never know until you try the options! Personally, I enjoy any of them, but I'm easy to please. I've had steel, aluminum, and titanium framed bicycles, and I liked them all (the titanium MTB had front suspension, hardtail rear). You are also correct that the harshness of a ride is more forgiving in a recumbent trike seat! Recumbent seats are no match for bicycle seats, even the bike seats that are designed to be more comfortable. Trike seats are like sitting in my La-Z-Boy recliner at home ... can't beat that, suspension or not, haha. steve

[@chillfree9925]

❤to get that trike ❤trikes 😊

[@EZSteve]

It's a nice one, but pricey. This is the last trike I will ever buy, so I wanted it to be the best, so money well spent. steve

[@mrkeopele]

please tell me the manufacturer of the shock on your trike, I've got the ELF and adding that internal shock might be possible, the front shock, the steering one!

[@EZSteve]

I do not have specific information about this suspension system, which comes stock on this trike from the manufacturer HP Velotechnik in Germany. I have found that the company is good about responding to contacts, so you might try contacting HP regarding your question. Below is some information on the company: Company Website; www.hpvelotechnik.com/en/ Company Contact Page: www.hpvelotechnik.com/en/contact/ All the best in your pursuit of the suspension! steve

[@mrkeopele]

@@EZSteve thank you!

[@Finnv893]

People underestimate the relialiablity of a front 2x because they've heard or experience bad things from a 3x setup. I would rather have a 12 speed rear than a 3 speed front. Hate the weight? Embrace the 2x, say no to 3x.

[@EZSteve]

Thanks for your commentary Bob! I've had light weight trikes and heavy weight trikes, without suspension and with suspension, rear only and full, and I enjoy them all, for their varied specialties and purposes. Nowadays, the weight is not an issue for me usually because with the proper gearing and midfoot position pedals, the hills and mountains are less intimidating. I will say however that the lighter the better for long distance trips that require several days or weeks, but that has to be balanced with comfort of course. steve

[@AuroraCypher]

Where can one find a Trike with suspension like yours please ?

[@EZSteve]

This trike is an HP Velotechnik Scorpion fs26 Enduro. The company is headquartered in Germany but I purchased this trike from a US distributor in Wisconsin called Hostel Shoppe. These trikes are expensive because of the high levels of engineering and design that go into them, but for those who have the financial ability, they are definitely worth the investment in my opinion. Here are some links for more information: Hostel Shoppe (currently sold out): hostelshoppe.com/products/r3-hpv9-scorpion-fs-26-enduro-1?_pos=9&_sid=d999620f0&_ss=r HP Velotechnik information page: www.hpvelotechnik.com/en/recumbent-trikes-bikes/scorpion-adults-recumbent-trikes/scorpion-fs-26-enduro-offroad-trike/ Industrial Bicycles sales page: www.industrialbicycles.com/Hp-Velotechnik-Scorpion-fs-enduro I also have videos about this trike that discuss aspects of it, including pricing: My initial thoughts about the trike after I got it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKCyeJ94mtZkarM Some details about the trike: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKHHXqmKoqp1Z80 Pricing discussion of this trike: kzbin.info/www/bejne/boKthZmoa56JbtE One thing to keep in mind is that this trike originally comes with big off-road knobby tires, but I replaced them with Schwalbe Marathon Plus road tires, and then added fenders. HP Velotechnik also makes a road version of this trike that comes with road tires: At Hostel Shoppe (also currently sold out): hostelshoppe.com/products/r3-hpv9-scorpion-fs-26-orange-1?_pos=4&_sid=dffb13d16&_ss=r At the HP Velotechnik company website: www.hpvelotechnik.com/en/recumbent-trikes-bikes/scorpion-adults-recumbent-trikes/scorpion-fs-26-performance-full-suspension-trike/ It is a GREAT trike! steve

[@AuroraCypher]

@@EZSteve Amazing thank you sir, could you tell me quickly on the size of the 2 front wheels and the back wheel please I cant seem to find it. Thank you

[@EZSteve]

@@AuroraCypher Yes, happy to help. The front wheels are twenty inch wheels. The rear wheel is twenty-six inch. I have two 20x1.75 inch 47-406 Schwalbe Marathon PLUS tires on the front, and a 26x1.75 inch 47-559 Schwalbe Marathon PLUS tire on the rear.

[@garyseckel295]

Greatest trike suspension ever, is under the rider's torso and any cargo. My Hase Lepus has independent rear suspension with adjustable rear air shocks. Also, 2WD, E-assist AND Rohloff 14-speed gearbox! Once Rohloff, never again cassette!!! NOTHING else in the trike universe EVEN COMES CLOSE to this combination of logic, design-level and build-quality! Trikes ARE expensive, but make a single purchase that can never be outgrown, even if by simply aging, AND wheelchair and/or forearm crutches. Over 30-years recumbent experience here. Never outgrow a delta planform trike. Grow oldest on a delta planform trike. Been there, doing that!!!!!!

[@EZSteve]

Great commentary Gary! Lots of excellent points! Trikes work for all ranges of rider ability and physical condition, especially delta trikes because they are easier to enter and exit compared to the tadpole versions. steve

[@The3wheelin]

Just ordered an Azub Tyfly X...hoping the suspension is worth the $$$...

[@debbieschwartz3132]

Thats one of the trikes I'm considering....beautiful trike

[@The3wheelin]

Test drove one at Angletech in Colorado Springs...it was amazingly smooth, even at speed! 🙂

[@debbieschwartz3132]

@@The3wheelin yes I test rode one as well. Super smooth ride like a Cadillac!!! I want to retest ti-fly and ice sprint x one after the other

[@The3wheelin]

You can't go wrong with either on...both are Awesome! 🙂

[@debbieschwartz3132]

@@The3wheelin Decisions Decisions!!!

[@michaelbrownlee9497]

Its a independent suspension on the front. Looks heavy, can it so a S turn without flipping? Or rather at what speed will i

[@EZSteve]

Hi Michael, Yes, suspension definitely adds weight, and the more sophisticated the suspension (like this one), the more weight it adds. The elastomer suspension systems used on ICE trikes are considerably lighter in weight, but the ride is not as comfortable. This trike weighs about 48 pounds stock, with no added accessories, but I have accessories, so mine is a heavier trike than bare bones. Whether any trike flips in a turn is a function of the speed into the turn and the design optimization of a particular trike. This Scorpion trike rides low, and handles speed very well. If someone is interested in pushing the absolute limits of speed in curves, that knowledge is something that will only come from personal experience on the road. This trike also comes in a full race version that is made for riders who want speed and handling maximized: Scroll down on the following linked page to see this speed trike version, which is orange in color: www.hpvelotechnik.com/en/recumbent-trikes-bikes/scorpion-adults-recumbent-trikes/scorpion-fs-26-performance-full-suspension-trike/#Bildergalerie steve

[@michaelbrownlee9497]

@@EZSteve At what speed does it flip doing an S ? Hard right immediate hard left immediate hard right. 90 degree turns, (quarter circle).

[@EZSteve]

@@michaelbrownlee9497 Your question cannot be answered because it is dependent upon too many variables, such as things like the weight of the rider or the height of the seat off the ground. If a rider wants to emphasize speed through curves, then a trike like the Catrike 700 or ICE VTX, both of which sit very low to the ground, are very lightweight, and are specifically designed to excel at high speed turns. There are other trikes equally capable, but those two are the most popular and well-known speed trikes. The Scorpion has an unsuspended version that sits lower, and is lighter in weight, with the intent of fast riding or racing, which is also a good choice. I have been riding recumbent trikes since 2009, and have never flipped one, and that includes speeding down steep mountain passes at speeds of 50+ miles per hour. Common sense and fear of crashing should be one's guide. If you are truly intent on going through turns and curves as fast as you can, you can find the answer to your question by selecting a typical curve, and taking multiple runs through it, increasing your speed with each run, until such time that one of your runs results in flipping and a crash. Then you will know from first-hand experience. I enjoy going fast, as do many trikers, but few of us would enjoy flipping at speed. I have seen trikers flip a trike below 5 miles per hour, so clearly, maximum speed through a curve or turn has far too many unpredictable variables to have hard and fast answers. steve

[@michaelbrownlee9497]

@@EZSteve I was wondering if the suspension had any effect on a S flip.

[@EZSteve]

@@michaelbrownlee9497 Well, I can't answer that from any personal experience, but all I can do is speculate on what I think might be the case. I think I'll use cars as an example: If a car goes into a curve faster than might be considered reasonable, the car leans, and the more it is above the safe speed limit for the curve, the more it leans. This leaning is due to the car's full suspension, so clearly there is a lot of energy being absorbed by the car's suspension system as it negotiates the curve at an unsafe rate of speed. Okay, so now let's contemplate what would happen if the car had no suspension at all, in other words, it was a rigid vehicle with axles welded directly to the car's frame. Where, and how, would all the energy forces be distributed and handled that were being absorbed by the full suspension on the suspended car? All that force and energy has to go somewhere, and if the vehicle does not have a suspension system at all, then energy generated by the excess speed would bear fully onto the tires and frame of the car. My speculation based on this comparison example would lead me to believe that the unsuspended car would flip at the same speed that the suspended car was still able to control, albeit with frightening leaning of the car. In other words, my verdict is that full suspension improves one's chances of not flipping in a curve that is taken too fast. Maybe others reading this reply will add their thoughts too. I'm just speculating. 😀 steve

[@gil6995]

I’m going to try and figure out how add suspension to my rigid frame Greenspeed. May have to just somehow add suspension to the seat itself.

[@EZSteve]

Well, that will certainly be a big challenge I bet. Your idea of seat suspension is probably the place to begin your project. One thing about Greenspeed trikes is that Ian Sims (former owner, now deceased) designed suspension into his seats right from the factory, something that other trike makers did not do like he did. It might be easier to just sell the Greenspeed and pop for a new suspended trike, if the seat is too stiff for you. Of course, it's all a matter of money, haha. steve

[@gil6995]

@@EZSteve I would like a new trike but I have too much time and energy invested in mine. I put a Bafang on it and all the controls are on the right side (can’t use left arm or hand). Custom rack to hold battery, etc. all DIY. Trikes are way more expensive now than when I bought mine so I’ll have to live with it for now.

[@EZSteve]

Yep, for sure, trikes are getting more and more costly over the years! Has the elastic shock cording that forms the suspension of the seat on the Greenspeed stretched or worn out, or is it just not enough suspension feeling for you? If it is old, perhaps it can be replaced. Anyway, you have a great trike, with many great improvements, so yes, it's probably best to stick with it and upgrade it as best as can be done to meet your needs. steve

[@gil6995]

@@EZSteve I changed the stretch cord already but I have solid Tannus tires on it now so a much stiffer ride. I’m going to try a good seat cushion to see if that helps.

[@EZSteve]

A seat cushion of some kind will definitely help a lot in my experience. My current trike has foam cushioning inserted in the mesh seat material, and wow, it is so superior to my first 2007 ICE trike, which had mesh only with no cushioning. Many trikers have reported to me over the years that the "Ventasit" cushion is really comfortable. Here is a link to their website: www.ventisit.nl/en/applications/recumbents/ I bet there are more companies that also make great cushioning options. steve

[@Nick-hl5pk]

HP is a German company and they have designed great trikes but HPs are manufactured in Taiwan not Germany as you implied.

[@EZSteve]

Hi Nick, Regardless of where this brand is actually physically manufactured, the Scorpion is a superior recumbent trike, superbly designed, engineered, and brought to fruition by two highly skilled German mechanical design engineers named Paul Hollants and Daniel Pulvermuller (thus the "HP" initials). Hollants and Pulvermüller founded HP Velotechnik during their studies of industrial engineering at the Technical University of Darmstadt. These two men founded HP Velotechnik in 1993, and While still at school, they won the JUTEC design competition of the Association of German Engineers with their fully suspended cabin trike - the foundation for the development from a garage workshop to one of the most innovative cycle companies in Germany. If one were to diminish or dismiss the quality of a bicycle or tricycle based on the physical manufacturing location, then one would have to dismiss most of the well-known brands in the two and three wheeled world. For example, Inspired Cycle Engineering, known as ICE, an esteemed and innovative leader in recumbent trikes, used to build their excellent trikes in England, but in 2010 moved manufacturing operations to Asia. Long ago, I stopped worrying about where a bike or trike is physically manufactured, and began to focus on what really mattered, which is the long standing reputation of a company and the quality of their vehicles. HP Velotechnik is the Mercedes of the recumbent trike world, an undisputed leader in the industry, with nearly 30 years of outstanding products and testimonials from cyclists who have ridden their products extensively around the world. This trike, which I bought specifically based on the long standing evidence of its superiority, is even higher quality and well-thought than I originally expected. When I made the decision to purchase this trike in 2021, it was based upon 12 years of being part of the recumbent triking industry and experience, and I gave no thought whatsoever as to whether it was made in a particular country. I knew the HP reputation, and I was not disappointed. steve

[@truth-Hurts375]

So does many of the top Bicycles...

[@truth-Hurts375]

@@EZSteve I agree with you...The HP Velotechnic Scorpion series is like the BMW or Mercedes Bens ....its a dream machine.

[@EZSteve]

@@truth-Hurts375 I always knew they were top of the line for years, but when I actually took delivery of this trike in summer 2021, my expectations were exceeded by a surprising margin. Yes indeed, it is truly a dream machine, a keeper for any serious trike fanatic! steve

[@Moosey1789]

The frames and components are made in Taiwan, I grant you, but Scorpions are assembled in Germany at the HP plant. The Gekko solid frame trikes are direct shipped to import country from Taiwan. There are plenty of HP factory tour videos online that show the Scorpion final assembly. Is QC more strict? I have a Gekko USA 26 which was drop shipped from Taiwan and two Scorpions. Different animals, so to speak, but seems to me QC was better. Perhaps that was a function of price point rather than country of origin.

[@trikesalot771]

Steve Are you aware that HP worked with several of the German car manufacturers when they developed their suspension and steering for the Scorpion Enduro? The anti-sway/anti-roll bar is a dead giveaway, as this has been a tried and true mechanism used in the auto industry for years!!

[@EZSteve]

Yes, I am aware of this. I have the printed version of their Scorpion catalog, something I received from them a couple years ago after buying the trike, and the story is told in those pages. I believe that HP is leading the recumbent trike industry in suspension, certainly far ahead of Inspired Cycle Engineering as far as sophistication is concerned. AZUB has their unique titanium torsion bar front suspension design,, which works very well, however, I would much rather have the standard frame cross member as opposed to the flat metal pieces on the AZUB (I have slept on my trike on more than one occasion on my cross country trips, and having a large smooth frame under the hamstring muscles of the upper leg is much more preferable than having flat metal cross members). Thanks for the observation. steve

[@trikesalot771]

@@EZSteve Actually Azub was my next choice, however German Engineering, Manufacturing, and Quality Assurance is the gold standard in my opinion!!!

[@EZSteve]

@@trikesalot771 Agreed regarding the gold standard! I also am not a fan of how AZUB routes their cables upwards from the hand grips. This puts cable loops in a vulnerable position that interferes with the rider's hands, which I do not prefer. AZUB claims that this positioning allows brake levers to be in the typical position of a bicycle, which they say is ergonomically superior to the recumbent trike, where the brake levers are "upside down" compared to bicycle industry standards. I do not agree at all with this assertion. I have been using the "upside down" position for brakes on trikes for over 14 years, and I have no issues whatsoever. Personally, I think this move on their part was to present something that was unique and new to the trike world, which it does, but I believe it was a poor decision (clearly, they do not perceive it as such). steve

[@trikesalot771]

@@EZSteve Well that's the Czech's for you, and my ethnicity is Czechoslovakian! Lol! On another topic, I believe you are running Marathon Plus tires for added protection against flats, I'm assuming it's working out well! I am unable to run Marathon Plus because much of my riding is off road and on trails, I need tires with more grip, so I kept the Smart Sams that came on the trike. Within the first 3 months of owning the trike I had 4 flats, 3 punctures and 1 pinched tube. I did a ton of research and finally ended up installing Tannus Arrmour in the tires. problem solved. In fact I just ordered a new set of Smart Sam's (6,000 miles on the original set) and swapped them out today, interestingly when I examined the old tire carcasses, I was amazed at what I saw. Rear tire had around 8 goatheads that penetrated the tire, 2 fragments of metal, and 1 fragment of glass that pierced the tire, but the Tannus Armour insert was not affected. The 2 fronts had a bunch of goatheads and cactus spines that likewise penetrated the tire. After seeing this first hand I am totally sold on Tannus. Well worth the money for complete piece of mind!!

[@EZSteve]

@@trikesalot771 Yes, I have run Schwalbe Marathon PLUS tires on my road trikes from the beginning of my recumbent trike life. I have never had a flat tire with these tires! This includes literally a few thousand goatheads over the years, along with pieces of wire from shredded truck tires on the highway shoulder. I have run through broken glass and shards of metal, things that I figured were going to "flat" me, but nope ... came through just fine! I am definitely sold on these tires for pavement, hard pack dirt roads, and mild gravel. They work fine on unpaved mountain fire roads and Forest Service roads. But. as you say, they are marginal to no good at all for sand or soft unpaved backroads. The Smart Sams are next to worthless without seriously effective liner inside. This was also the case with my ICE Full Fat 4.8x26 inch knobby tires, which flatted out very quickly. One day, I had four flats in a matter of less than five miles of desert riding on dirt roads and cross country ... and I had "Mr. Tuffy" tire liners inside each one, but Mr. Tuffy liners are no good, and do not keep goatheads from puncturing the tubes!!! Never try that brand. Tannus is a top company, and with your endorsement, I would say they succeed where Mr. Tuffy fails miserably. Thanks for relating that information. You have made your otherwise worthless Smart Sams into off-road worthy tires, which is GREAT! The tire companies make these off road tires, but they do not make them well, concentrating on lightweight and cost, which is faulty reasoning when the backcountry trikers is stranded out in the middle of nowhere! steve