Swan DIY 3.1A Speaker Mods & Driver Upgrade!

[@kenandbarbie-b6c]

You are looking into many unanswered questions I had about those HiVi DIY kits. I have seen them for years (the prices have steadily increased) & your research is awesome. Please proceed…

[@ywsx6489]

As long as you document and measure your experiments, it is science.

[@trsconsulting791]

Love your videos, glad to see so much interest and enthusiasm for tube amplifiers. The vacuum cleaner trick works every time. Also the 8 ohm driver being properly matched to the impedance of the output transformer is giving you more power across the speaker. If you think of the amplifier as a power source and the speaker is the load, you get maximum power to the load when the resistance in the power source and the resistance in the load are equal. It is the job of the output transformer to match them. When you lower the impedance of the speaker without the proper impedance tap on the output transformer, your load resistance becomes less than the resistance in the power source and you don't get maximum power to the load, you just produce more heat in the source. In this case the output tubes. This is why impedance matching your speakers is very important. The extended bass response on the driver with the larger voice coil is due to the additional mass of the cone and voice coil this gives you a lower frequency extension at the expense of overall sensitivity. Notice the 5DB you gain at 40 hz is at the expense of the overall sensitivity being 5 dB less, however the additional power from being impedance matched correctly compensates for the lower sensitivity of the driver. Putting an 8 ohm driver on a crossover that was designed for 4 ohms will extend the frequency a little higher into the mids.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Yeah, might need some crossover tweaks but for a "driver roll", the results were positive.

[@trsconsulting791]

Yes, I would think it would be positive and the etension in to the mids is probably ok also. My post was meant to be positive and informational. Love your posts, have a great day.@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics

[@Thomasp671]

I have a pair of Klipsch RP 600m's and they are the best sounding small bookshelf speakers I have ever heard.... :-)) Fixing to buy another pair for the rear....

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

I know some people hate them and I have been attacked on forums with comments like "Well you like the way RP600M speakers sound, so your advice is questionable"..

[@Thomasp671]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Maybe they have hearing problems and don't know any better lol :-))

[@Thomasp671]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics also... One thing that surprises me about these Klipsch speakers is how good they sound.... those horns are absolutely tuned perfectly to the mids and highs.... also, when I first bought these speakers I had no idea that they were going to produce as much bass as they do and I thought I was going to have to buy a subwoofer.... but as soon as I placed the speakers in the proper position from the corner of the wall the bass just went insanely crazy.... it's amazing to me that the 6 inch woofers along with the cabinet and that tune port in the back can produce so much base that I don't even need a subwoofer.... 🙂 Another fact about these speakers is they will handle the wattage that is described in the specifications.... Have a good day...

[@RanTausi]

Hey, how is their low and ? do they have sufficient bass in small to midsize room ? Thanks

[@Thomasp671]

@@RanTausiWith any and all speakers, placement of the speaker is crucial to get the best sound.... These Klipsch, RP 600M speakers are designed perfectly for the corners of a small room.... for which they were designed for... You would think that the massive Twitter horn in the front would overpower the speakers, but that is simply not the case... Klipsch has a back firing tuned port, that creates all of the bass using a small 6 inch woofer. The tuned port in the back is tuned to the cubic air volume of the enclosure, along with the small 6 inch woofer that fires from the rear of the speaker and hits the corners of the wall in the room turning the corner of the wall into a large bass horn... Just put the speakers about 2 1/2 to 3 feet away from the corners of any small room and it will sound fantastic.... !!!! If you buy a set of speakers with front firing ports this effect will not work, and the speaker will have to be placed somewhere else to get the best sound... but where else are you going to put your speakers ? but in the logical corners of the room or 2.5 to 3 feet from any wall.... :-) One more thing... The tuned port in the back of these Klipsch speakers is very different than just a hole in the back with a pvc pipe or tube placed in the back of the speaker as a port. I'm using these speakers in a 24' x 24' foot room which is perfectly balanced for the bass, mids and high frequencies.

[@dmark2639]

Driver selection is extremely important, as you are finding out. Crossover design is as much an art as a science...and I think tube amp design is too! The key with speaker design is measurements, followed by listening to fine tune. Danny Richie's channel at GR Research has alot of great info on crossovers that will help you. I doubt that the inverted cone dust caps will make a difference in the sound unless the shipping damaged the voice coil. You can try using a vacuum to help gently pull the dust cap back to convex if you want. Lastly, you are correct about matching the average impedance of the speaker to the amp's output transformer. That does make an audible difference. I've always heard that tubes preferred higher impedance loads like 16 ohms, but i guess it really depends on the output transformer. Should be an interesting learning series to watch. Good luck!

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

This is why when I am choosing output transformers, I use a slightly higher "impedance" model, as I know many 8 ohm speakers dip below 8ohms. For example when the "perfect design load" would call for a 3.5K, I will choose a 5K. You lose a little power but the amp speaker combo sounds cleaner.

[@pliedtka]

Many 8 ohm systems might even dip below 5 ohms easily. Then you have to add impedance phase swing, also having quite a factor on what the amp sees and how it might behave (avoid capacitive loading). As for simple change in swapping 4ohm to 8 ohm driver, there will most likely be extra lower midrange , since 8 ohm driver needs almost twice the value of inductor for that same crossover frequency, assuming they use very simple X-O design here. The way you design X-O, is to fit specific acoustical target curve for specific driver, taking into account it's freq. response when mounted into cabinet and impedance. As for the cone shape and material used it will determine stiffness, self damping properties and cone/dome ringing, frequency response, off axis behavior, distortions, etc. Most cones/domes materials will have specific sound signatures depending on materials used. Again depending on the drivers design the crossover might address issues the 'cone' has and deviate from flat on axis response. XSim is the easiest X-O soft but also quite limited in what it can do, but Vituix is very much the norm today as it allows off axis behavior to be taken into account. As for measuring rig, some like Clio as it provides MLS and it's easy to set up, some use Dayton mics/Soft, REW, ARTA, ... Erin from Erin's Audio Corner even got himself a Klippel, but he only uses it for his own speaker reviews. He did once review of Dayton spkrs and provided separate driver's FRD and Z measurements for those who would want to redesign the crossover for improved performance. It worked very well in Vituix CAD - I would love to have access to something like Klippel. Good luck

[@mddawson1]

I purchased a second hand NHT 2.1 speaker set and the dust cap in the subwoofer driver was pushed in. I got it to pop out carefully using a vacuum cleaner.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

oooo I like that one!

[@Victrola777]

I am now fairly happy with these speakers after doing the DIY HIVI kit Perfect crossover.

[@peterwalkerden6778]

Love to see the results of your experimentation. There is a difference between an off the shelf suit and one that is tailor made. If you tweek your speakers to match your amp you will undoubtedly end up with a better result. I have super cheap setup and I too am thinking of buying a mic and starting to do measurements. Thinking that is a good place to start. So I can at least understand where the problems are.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

And learn! Honestly I have found I get better results with trial and error vs obsessing with sims and high end math. At the end of the day, does it sound good to me?

[@insurrectionindustries1706]

Hi, love the channel, first I think it’s always fun to experiment, and in the end it absolutely about whatever you enjoy. My only concern about swapping drivers is that it changes so many aspects of the design. The Fs and other characteristics will typically drive the ideal box size, port size, and will also change the parts you need in the crossover. If it works that is great, but it will typically at least require modifications to the crossover.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Thanks, I will look at fine tuning this later. Need to measure results and if there is a hump in the mids, will look at crossover changes. I se this like tube rolling, sometimes just dropping in a slightly different tube wakes things up, sometimes it requires other changes.

[@NakeanWickliff]

You rock! Thank you for explaining your journey! These woofers may play lower but the sensitivity is about 5 db lower which is almost half the apparent level. Very curious how they measured.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Yeah, still a work in progress. They still aren't performing how I'd like :(

[@BubblePuppy.]

Yes experiment, fail often and learn. That is the fun of the hobby. It can take years for your knowlege and taste to evolve. You can grow by leaps and bounds by watching Danny's videos.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

But what if I don't like the way his results sound?

[@1mctous]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Then experiment as you've done with the Mini Desktop's and now the Swan 3.1A's.

[@SteveLage-c3j]

Try a one ohm or two resistor for the ribbon tweeter. This will bring down some of the spl of the tweeter. Speakers for tube amps,look for drivers that have db level of 90 or above so that when you are done with the crossover you don’t lose too much efficiency with the finished speaker.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Already added 5ohms to the supplied value. And I'm having a hard time finding any drivers, especially larger ones, over 85-86db.

[@rodm1949]

Sounds like you are fighting with the driver response. In a great setup you need a 2nd order 24db rolloff, seems that there might be a "something something" crossover inside the cabinet. The silk screen midrange are great when setup - I have used 5W ceramic resistors to atenuate drivers, your base is missing because the upper range is too loud and the rolloff is not letting it get deep.

[@Victrola777]

Several years ago, when this kit first came out, there were lots of negative reviews on it for being way too bright and not having enough bass. All those negative reviews magically disapeared ! I have now reworked it so many times, I am to the point where I am very happy with my bass and midrange. I need one more adjustment on the tweeter to see if I can finally get that right. It has taken several years to get this far. I have given up several times ! When I now look at the frequency sweep for that initial woofer, it seems like a better midrange than woofer.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

That's what it looks like to me too. I still haven't got it "right" lol

[@Victrola777]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics I just had to walk away from it again. I got so frustrated. I might just take the drivers and use them for other projects. But I am not a person who gives up easily.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Oh I haven't given up, plus it looks WAY too cool now that I painted the boxes brick red with these yellow drivers. I bought a pair of soft done horn tweeters I also want to try in this.

[@Victrola777]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics I was looking at those yellowvdrivers on parts express just the other day.

[@johannjohann6523]

Your on target about the voice coil, and in particular size. It's generally a better speaker that has a larger voice coil in the same size driver. the "little dome" is usually the dust cover of the speaker, and the same size of the voice coil.

[@karlmoser8832]

This is great! Please identify the crossover revisions with the speaker change.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

I am using the mod listed in the middle at the linked site they just changes the 3 resistors.

[@deangale4496]

Great idea external crossovers give big improvements I reckon

[@AudioTekAdventures-ph9ke]

I hope you are able to do more like this Thanks for all your hard work

[@gregmatula9749]

Woofers with high QTS have more bass output than those with a low QTS. I am unfamiliar with the woofers you are using but they remind me of the morel and dynaudio 3-in voice coil woofers that I used in the '80s from what I remember they had high q totals. Woofers with high qts have less control of the resonant frequency and allows the cone to travel further, and they work better in larger boxes.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Thanks for the tip!

[@Pksparty2112]

Does that hole in the back of the magnet go all the way to the center dust cap? If so a little air pressure could pop then back out.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

It does!

[@adamphillips1263]

I think the reason most people used the vacuum to suck the cap back out is because the speaker was still mounted in the box. I know mine was - I never considered pulling the speaker out to look at the back of it. It seems like there is a much lower change of damage by connecting the hose to the exhaust of a small shop vac and blowing the cap out. You will likely never get a tight enough seal to rupture the cone whereas using a funnel (which was my initial thought) you could end up with too high a vacuum before you can do anything about it. Let us know how it turns out.

[@ohyesitsme]

Very interesting. I also have no knowledge of speaker design so am interested to see how this development goes. As an aside does anyone have any experience of the Klipsch RB81 ii

[@nevillegoddard4966]

Good idea messing around with drivers Stephe! I agree with you, a larger voice coil should give you more bass. I think you're also right about driver impedance. The higher it's impedance the less current required to drive it, & thus the more power available for the other drivers. Having a single output winding on the output transformer allows room for more primary & secondary turns, allowing more primary & secondary turns to intersperse & couple to each other. The 250 litre Majestic monsters with their 15 inch Etone woofers & Celestion horn-loaded compression tweeeters I built don't seem to have this problem! Hey what do you think of the B&W DM10's Stephe? I'd like a good pair of bookshelf speakers for my bedroom.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

I'm not a big fan of front facing bass ports, but for a bedroom speaker, might be a pair of "chill" speakers for background music that are less sensitive to room placement? Just a guess.

[@danbalkey2580]

Can’t fine where you put the woofer on Amazon

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Not sure that model is even for sale anymore.

[@paulgood2218]

Dayton audio dats v3 best equipment you can buy to check frequency response and so much more.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

I will check it out.

[@gadget73]

the problem with changing the impedance without messing with the crossover is the crossover point will move up. Unless the woofer circuit is really goofy designed, it will usually have a series L and a parallel C. Quick and dirty crossover mod to keep it the same, double the value of the L, half the value of the C and it should be very close but its a little fiddly because the impedance curve of the driver + box combo isn't going to be a steady 4 ohms. If it measures out to have a hump in the 1-3k or so range, thats where I'd look. If it comes out fine, then call it a day and rock on.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Thanks for the info! I have learned the flat doesn't always = sounds good to me, so I wanna be careful :)

[@robertsine8812]

Perhaps you could help me. I want to buy the HiVi-Swans OS-10 for my gym. And run them with my cell phone as they are blue tooth speakers 🔊. Will they be loud and powerful enough? Or will I need a DAC system with it also? Thank you 🙏.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

With a 4 inch woofer, I don't think loud and powerful would be used to describe something like this.

[@frankverschoof8083]

That's why there were a lot more speakers with 16ohm coils in the past.

[@zefrog7482]

Port length could be worth experimenting with as well, as that driver will have a lower tuning frequency ideally. Maybe get some cardboard tube the same diameter and experiment with different lengths. Ideally you would want to redo the crossover from scratch, but if they measure OK you might scrape by on the original.

[@patricaomas8750]

Sorry don't understand all the tech talk but is this worth as a kit building vs. Similar priced factory-made speaker?

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

The 2.2 version was worth building, I wasn't impressed with this 3.1 version.

[@chandrasekharmanjunathvara7505]

I have assembled the speakers and connected to amplifier but it is not working. please let me know what may be the problem.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Maybe you connected the wires to the crossover board in the wrong place? Look also at the terminals/wired on the back and make sure they are making a connection. I would test with an ohm meter and make sure the speaker isn't "shorted" so it doesn't damage your amplifier.

[@chandrasekharmanjunathvara7505]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics thank you. I will test

[@chandrasekharmanjunathvara7505]

@SkunkieDesignsElectronics I am using Yamaha rs202. Is this a issue?

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Nope, it works with other speakers right?

[@chandrasekharmanjunathvara7505]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics yes. It works with other speakers

[@allenwalters8812]

if you stick some tape to the cap it will pull it back out when you pull it off.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Great tip!

[@bobbymccourt6794]

When comparing the graphs from both woofers the woofer in the 3.1 actually has better specs at 100hz than the 2.1 does. By about 5 db. The graphs are using 2 different x scales with the 3.1 using a 100db scale and the 2.1 using a 90db scale so visually it skews the look. As far as bass response and punch goes the 3.1’s are far from lacking and IMO and in my listening room a😅e cleaner and a bit faster than the 2.1’s. That’s 🎉the thing about audio, everyone’s hearing is different as well as listening spaces. After spending $30 for the Sehlin mod on the Xover the 3.1’s can hold their own with some much higher end speakers. Several friends have systems that are 3-5x the cost of mine and all of them have commented how amazing they sound. I’m running mine off of an ST-70 tube amp for each channel (30-35w each) and an Akitika PR-102 preamp I built and the sound is pretty amazing… Just my 2 cents.

[@Fine_art_aerial]

Cant find the amazon link for the woofers.. Only link is the whole 3.1a kit.. Great video btw!!

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

They are probably sold out.

[@Fine_art_aerial]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics No, what im saying is i think you forgot to put the link in the description.. Only link i find is for the entire kit.. Do you know the model number of them?? I search hivi 6.5 and only thing that comes up is the old ones.. Thanks much!!

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

There were only a couple left in stock when I posted this video, they are gone now. www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCRY9KXL

[@Fine_art_aerial]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Excellent thanks so much!! Def doing this, I will keep my eyes peeled for em.. Can i please ask when the final results video is posting for the hivi 3.1a woofer swap?? THanks much!!

[@jamestimmons6022]

im suprised parts express didnt have those cheaper....cant wait for the differences!

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

They may have, I didn't cheap that!

[@d.s.w7779]

What are the yellow woofers model to find on amazon

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Not sure they are available anymore.

[@drexellake4051]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Parts Express has some HiVi woofers and other models that might be simular.

[@doctormidnight]

It's the journey that's interesting.

[@sampapadas50]

A good indicator of how low a woofer can play is the FS spec which is a multi variable formula divided by the QTS spec which is another more complicated multi variable formula. also, QTS is a good indicator of what kind box the woofer should be put in. Low QTS woofers, say something like .41 and below, should be put in a vented box, and higher QTS woofers say up to .7 should be put in sealed cabinets and anything above that in an open baffle. of course, there always can be some overlap. these are some of what are called the thiele and small parameters this subject can be studied to a ridiculously deep level. there is a lot of info online though.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Or experiment and listen :) I see the same thing in tube amp design, ridiculously complex formulas and endless simulations that scare 99% of the public from even getting into the hobby. I found that you can simply experiment around once you have a bassline, measure the results (in the case of tube amps both internal voltages and then output results) and actually get something done. Paralysis due to over analysis can easily happen. It also restricts what you "can do". I was told by several experts a 6SQ7 can't be used to drive a EL34 and they had all these math formulas showing why it wouldn't work. The amp sounds fantastic. I know engineers hate this but I'm not an engineer :)

[@MasterofPlay7]

Thinking of upgrading to klipsch rp8000f ii, but then some reviewers said they lack bass extension, what do you think of klipsch in general?

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

They tend to be a >little< bright on the top end and need careful room placement to get the bass out of them. My friend has a pair of RP8000F II and IMHO they sound nice. if you need more bass, a powered sub is an easy fix. Overall, good value for the money and work well with tube amps.

[@MasterofPlay7]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics thank your for the response! What amp would you pair them with?

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Depends on the kind of music and more important the SPL wanted and room size

[@mohdpazli]

The answer to all your question were all those part were taken from a floorstand speaker..to be exect Swans RM300F..even the crossover are the same except RM300F using 3 seperate board for each driver... and its has bigger brother as well RM600F which is 8ohm since its using 2 same woofer run in series

[@mohdpazli]

The original woofer wasnt that bad its just run on lower sensitivity. For a floorstand which is double the 3.1a size its work just fine. So the simple solution is to lower the volume on both mid and high to really match the woofer but of course the overall sensitivity of the speaker will be drop as well. The 2nd solution are the one you implememt right now which is change to better woofer to match the mid and high. Changing to 8ohm version were good choice as well to match your system. So good luck in your journey. All the best and keep it up 👌

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

yeah I knew something just seems off. IMHO the 2 way speaker just sounds better.

[@WoodandSteel]

Ahh, fun with drivers. Now that you're rolling drivers, you can see why it's so expensive to delveple a great loudspeaker.

[@basukisugito8929]

But I see the 3 inch voice coil you replace the org speaker has a lot of breaks up around from 1k hz, they let the cross over around 600-800hz. Why they 3 inch go lower in the bass is it has probably more moving mass and a larger 3 inch coil weight more. But the bass output has nothing to do with the size of the voice coil. More about the moving mass. And the moving mass also refleks on the sensitivity as I see the new driver has at least 3db lower sensitivity and you should lower the mid and tweeter drivers with 3 db Then why can't we see the frequency response with the new driver?

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

This whole project ended up being a failure as far as the bass response. Neither the original design nor this "upgrade" worked very well IMHO. The 2 way model sounds MUCH better. I'm not a speaker designer obviously and was just playing around trying to get this speaker to work better.

[@basukisugito8929]

@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Don't be sad, I do also love play around with drivers and testing all kinds of things, we learn from errors. But I do love 3 inch drivers in their design. I really like there are femails who also like speakers, there are too few of them. I have dynaudio speakers and love them. Stay safe out there, me from Sweden

[@englishsteve1465]

Those drivers have NOT been "pushed in" or damaged, they are a different cone design. If they'd been pushed in there'd absolutely be damage and distortion to the cone shape that you'd immediately see, it'd be impossible to push that dome in perfectly without noticeable damage. Think about whenever you see a pushed in tweeter, there's ALWAYS a wrinkly edge, it's unavoidable. They must've changed cone design. Also, an 8 ohm driver being easier to drive will be louder than a 4 ohm for the same input level. How much louder I don't know but likely to be very noticeable I'd say.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

This dome is paper like the cone. And the boxes these "pushed in" drivers have a hole punched though the box centered over the driver that was taped over with amazon tape. Anyway not that important how this happened, I'll be interested to see if there is any difference from the cone shape! :)

[@MickeyMishra]

You know what would be Cool? A Nuclear Power Tube Amp! I wonder if there is a Way to use to excite the Tubes (Valves) in order to drive a Transformer at a very high Voltage to make music? Sure the Tubes themselves would have to be Shielded in some way, but I think with enough Lead glass would work. It seems that Beta Particles are the ones that Create Electrons. Now I am not sure how Tube's do their emissivity (?) as in how they use heating of a Cathode or Anode to make electrons flow, but it seems that this kind of operation is possible. Might work really well for a PreAmp section. I am thinking that the OUTPUT stage would be to much of a Feat to accomplish without a significant amount of radiation being a problem at that point. Might also work great for underwater gain amplifiers like they do with Fiber Optics as they would not need an external power source and could work for Decades.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

I'm not gonna being experimenting with radioactive devices!

[@MrShadownoise]

Why bother with nukes and output transformers, or for that matter loudspeakers, when Tesla coils can do this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/naLWaZWIgs11naMsi=v0eWCGdbSljSqX8D

[@paulgood2218]

You chose some really nice tweeters this going be a fun build. I been thinking about using a pair the scanspeak ring tweeters with the sharp point in the center . There not as sensitive as the horn loaded ones you chose but have a better off axcess response. . But I'm only in the planning stage. I would recommend reaching out to Toids diy , youtube channel he is great on knowledge and helping others with projects.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Already sub'd totheir channel!

[@ElderPinto254]

wauw swan very nice

[@obedjimenez2624]

Use a vacuum cleaner to suck it back out,.

[@MrShadownoise]

If you are careful you can probably suck that inverted cone back to convex using a low-power vacuum cleaner, eg car/battery type while holding the cone still. Use a bit of cloth to prevent too much vacuum. I have done this with doped fabric dustcaps on many other speakers with no problem. On my main speakers I have Morel soft dome tweeters that push in very easily (why do kids lean against speakers?). They only need a gentle suck from lips to pop back out to their orginal shape. I've done that a dozen times over the years and they still sound fine. OK, it is embarassing to be discovered kissing the tweeter, but it's hobby and I am cheap.

[@thomasschafer7268]

😢650€/pair for the kit in germany. Total overprized.

[@SkunkieDesignsElectronics]

Yeah, like many things where you live impacts this. Like Edcor iron is not a good deal if you have to ship them from the US.