Swapping Out A Breaker Panel! (How To Replace An Old Breaker Panel)

[@electronicsNmore]

ATTN: At the time this video was made, the ONLY purpose was to swap out a 50yr old "Main" (One and only)panel that worked perfectly, but was deemed potentially unsafe. In the video that was accomplished. I understand that the NEC "considers" it a subpanel, even though it's a main. I also mentioned that I would be upgrading the meter can/main disconnect, as well as replace the service entrance conductors with 2/0 wire so the new panel could handle the full 200A. Since this video was made, the meter can was replaced, and a main breaker installed inside the new panel, so any neutral / ground issue comments are no longer an issue. Thanks!

[@erictold]

Some peoples say to separate neutral and ground but it’s not possible when upgrading most panels because of short wires. Bonding ground bar and neutral bar in the sub panel is fine as long as grounding rod is not connected to the sub panel. Or the grounding rod is connected to the sub-panel and the rod is disconnected from the main breaker located outside of the building.

[@ethanbrown7683]

You need 4/0 for 200 amps

[@electronicsNmore]

@@ethanbrown7683 no. 2/0 thhn

[@ethanbrown7683]

3/0 if using copper. I know everything in that panel isn’t rated for the 90degree column

[@electronicsNmore]

@@ethanbrown7683 No idea where you're getting your information from. LOL Copper 2/0 - 200A , 3/0 - 225A, 4/0 - 250A THHN

[@miked5106]

You're a pro, especially based on the civility of ALL of your responses. Well done, well done.

[@bibo3373]

I live in a subdivision built out in the 1950’s. All the houses had FPE breaker panels and as of 2020 there have been no house fires. The breakers work fine as I have found out for decades when I overload a circuit.

[@electronicsNmore]

I agree with you, but when you try selling your home, they'll make you replace it.

[@MrWaalkman]

As an electrician who worked in the trade from '75 to about '89 (when I switched to engineering), the common joke about FPE was that you could use a 15 amp breaker for your welder. The un-funny part of the joke is that you pretty much could. And this was long before the UL listings were revoked. And while I didn't run into many burned up panels, the three that I did repair were all FPE panels. We used to say that FPE stood for "Flaming Piece of Equipment". www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/federal-pacific-circuit-breakers-investigation-finds-decades-of-danger/1930189/ Sleep tight...

[@bibo3373]

@@electronicsNmore Not here. Houses sell here with no problem and no panels are replaced.I think a lot of things are grandfathered in until you remodel a certain area and then have to bring that area up to code. If they were seeing a lot of problems I’m sure they would intervene with the public and demand upgrading.

[@garbo8962]

You are living on borrowed time. If you do not want to replace dangerous panel suggest that you have interconnected smoke/CO2 detectors in every room, a fire sprinkler thru out backed up by an emergency generator, fire ladders for second floor bedrooms

[@doninmichigan]

The old FPE panels in commercial, institutional, and industrial establishments are hazardous. I've had breakers come apart in my hands with the stand loks still attached to the bus.

[@CSSIandAssociate]

Once again very nice. Some things you explained in detail in fact was better than my Electrician instructor.

[@electronicsNmore]

+William Ward Thanks!

[@burgundyyears]

That's a Zinsco panel, not an FPE panel.

[@adamwise1790]

When I saw the vertical buss bars and the colored breakers I knew it wasn’t an fpe there red breakers and either stab lock or bolt in

[@Appleboy78165]

They're both dangerous panels though

[@Eibarwoman]

The two brands have some similar flaws with the busbar, but the FPE doesn't trip which makes it even more dangerous than a Zinsco which is also hazardous.

[@zenjon7892]

I wondered how many comments I would have to read before I found one that corrected him... The first comment

[@geraldestes2470]

thanks hombre; no scorching > the original electrician wiring the place probably 'balanced' the circuits in the panel...then over time things change, additions, overheated breakers, etc.; any backwiring or shared neutral issues the (short wire lengths for 'my' installation preference) ground / neutral wires that were originally connected?

[@DriftHyena]

We did a leasespace in a 3 story building with nothing but 3 phase FPE equipment. To my surprise the circuits would trip quick.

[@electronicsNmore]

Not all FPE panels are bad. The panel in this video worked just fine for over 50 years. I ran into many Challenger breaker panels that had problems with busbar/breaker connections.Thanks for watching!

[@rafaelmendez1193]

Very nice and clean job there.

[@electronicsNmore]

Thanks Rafael!

[@ranimouf]

You said to cut the conduit if it s too long, but what do you do if the conduit is too short to reach the new panel.

[@twotfreigh4946]

Great job! You make it look so easy! Hard work, great job!

[@twotfreigh4946]

Oh, why no ground bar? I guess a ground bar is optional? Attached to grounding rods?? Outside?? Just an inexperienced video watcher humbly inquiring

[@tooterr101oldgeezer4]

another good video. thanks for the variety of different things.

[@electronicsNmore]

+tooterr101 oldgeezer Thank You! Having a variety of videos on my channel is essential.

[@araslintakas6810]

The one thing that I still am unsure about is putting the new box in. Unfortunately, in your video, it just magically appeared. All wires already in. How many people did you need to get all the wires into the new holes? How did you make sure that you had the wires going through the same holes as in the previous panel? Or does it matter?

[@rickt.7857]

I know this is an old video but how did you lengthen the neutral from the previous panel where the lug was on the bottom? Thank you for your memory

[@christianbaltazar6515]

How did you made the neutral long enough to reach to the neutral screw at the GE?

[@electronicsNmore]

It was only slightly short. I was able to go by the main breaker and pull some excess wire.

[@christianbaltazar6515]

@@electronicsNmore so did you added wire to the neutral to reach it ?

[@electronicsNmore]

@@christianbaltazar6515 No, there was enough wire. In order to add. You'd need an insulated butt splice and hydraulic crimper.

[@morganbarton8355]

If I create an outlet from a light switch will it pull 110v?

[@aaronlowe3156]

Is it okay for me to stick a multimeter in ohm mode in an outlet's neutral and ground holes to check to see if the system is bonded or not?

[@electronicsNmore]

Really need to use a tester for "Earth-Ground". I have a video below that shows a tester. Also refer to the link for more info. Thanks for watching en-us.fluke.com/community/fluke-news-plus/myth-or-reality/can-you-really-test-electrical-bonds-adequately-using-a-multimeter.html kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqvdpnaFZdR9hrc (The electronic version is the tester that has the ability)

[@timtravasos2742]

Very good info.

[@electronicsNmore]

Glad you enjoyed the video Tim! I have a lot of excellent videos on my channel that cover many different subjects, so be sure to check out my extensive video playlists for other videos of interest to you, rate thumbs up, and share my channel with others. Thank You

[@gabakusa]

how do you extend the cables In case they are short?

[@electronicsNmore]

Use a metal junction box and add extra wire of the same diameter. if you can access it after the job is done. Attic, basement, etc. You're not allowed to hide them inside walls.

[@adamwise1790]

It’s not always easy to do without fixing drywall but an experienced electrician doesn’t have to fix any drywall. I’ve done many of these

[@Xlriick]

Do you have to be licensed to remove your own meter or does the E co have to do it?

[@electronicsNmore]

If you get a permit and do the work yourself according to code, then you can pull the meter. I usually pull my own and put it back in such a way that they cannot tell it was disturbed. Newer smart meters can probably notify the electric company when the meter has been removed, since a link to your home has been lost when removed.

[@thomasmarable6818]

We will have to change your grounds and neutral when you put in new feeders for the 200 amp and unbond the neutral bar.

[@Plummerdeedo29]

I like your work and don't let people discourage you on panels I have seen grounds are bonded to it only becomes a problem if its done multiple places. I don't like nec codes on ground rods being only 25 ohms its better to have under 5 ohms but its just minimum code.

[@throttleitup]

Put a mig bushing on that 2"emt and bond it,it's a concentric knockout.NEC says so.

[@sloney419]

because your main breaker is outside that panel becomes a sub panel, so your ground and neutral wires should be separated and isolated.

[@electronicsNmore]

A subpanel has it's feeds taken off a main panel, which is not the case. This is the one and only panel, "Main Panel". It's considered a subpanel because the NEC says the breaker is not inside the panel. It's safe the way it is, and millions of older homes were wired that way with no issues at all, but when I upgrade the meter can and main breaker in the future, I'll pull an 8ga ground wire into the panel and separate the neutral and grounds. No big deal. NEC.....rules today are violations tomorrow. Thanks For Watching

[@gregberban9273]

Does apply in this case , that's a 3-wire system,

[@rexrung]

GOOD JOB! Thanks for posting.

[@electronicsNmore]

Thanks for watching! Be sure to rate thumbs up, check out my extensive video playlists, and share my channel with others.

[@tomlin9761]

How come this panel doesn't have a main breaker switch? Is it because there is an external switch somewhere else? For a panel like this how do you install a interlock without a main breaker on the panel?

[@electronicsNmore]

The main breaker was later added to the panel. The main breaker was 10 feet away on the outside wall next to the meter can.

[@ОляП-д4х]

Good video! 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@electronicsNmore]

Thanks for the visit!

[@Jinxterman69]

Really well done. VERY informative. Wish you could be available for consultation!~!~!

[@electronicsNmore]

Glad you enjoyed it! I have many excellent videos on my channel, so be sure to look over my video playlists for videos of interest to you, rate thumbs up, and share my channel with friends. Thanks

[@Fireship1]

When I did this job in my state. (NJ) I had to add two 8 foot ground rods driven into soil as well as a water pipe ground (pre existing) to satisfy code. My house was built in the 70s, and didn't have the extra grounding. Just wondering if you had to add them as well to your upgrade. I enjoy your videos, thanks for sharing them.

[@electronicsNmore]

+Fireship1 Hi there. The existing ground rod next to the meter can was sufficient. Thanks For Watching!

[@WalterKnox]

this is a great video, however that panel is a zinsco, not a federal pacific, the colored handles like that are zinsco which also had fire issues, federal pacific breakers had red handles.

[@electronicsNmore]

True, but both FPE & Zinsco are potential problems. Thanks for watching!

[@WalterKnox]

@@electronicsNmore yes. great video and i would be willing to say that zinsco is a bigger problem because FPE breakers have issues with other stuff failing and the breaker not shutting off, zinsco panels have issues with connections to the bus bar melting even if everything else is fine, as well as issues with not tripping.

[@doninmichigan]

@@WalterKnox A common problem with the older FPE panels is the breakers would come apart upon removal with the Stab Loks stuck in the buss.

[@drwhoeric]

Two observations, you did not mention nor am i able to confirm how you handled multiwire branch circuits that share a neutral. I would have suggested adjoining pairs with black and red colored wires are always wired in such a fashion that blacks are on one pole of the bus-bar and and the reds are always on the other pole of the bus-bar. It does not matter which pole singlewire circuits go on as they do not share the Neutral. Though several people already said this, I would advise grounds to always be on their own bus. There was more than enough room in the panel to mount separate ground buses and tie then separately to the Neutral bus.

[@electronicsNmore]

If you're referring to a split circuit like a 20A dishwasher/disposal, I wire it like a 240 circuit. As for the ground wires/neutrals, I left them as is. I just replaced the meter can with a 150A can, eliminated the outside main breaker, pulled (3) new 1ga wires into the panel, and added a main breaker in the panel. Thanks for watching!

[@miked5106]

@@electronicsNmore I have a townhouse and the 200 amp main breaker is outside, several units down from mine. Can I replace my panel and put a main breaker in it and keep the one outside? Excellent video, thku.

[@electronicsNmore]

@@miked5106 If you leave the main breaker outside, then use a throw switch next to the breaker panel.

[@redskiclayton]

What a scary contraption that was!

[@duncanson84]

How could you make width fit if the opening is too small?

[@electronicsNmore]

Ideally you'd buy the same size panel, otherwise you'll need to cut away the studs to make the opening larger.

[@duncanson84]

The FPE panel I want to replace is 14” wide in a 14” stud to stud space. The panel I need appears to be a minimum of 14.25” wide. Advisable to shave an 1/8” off each stud? Or perhaps a link to the GE panel installed here?

[@Manzilla56]

When you bought the new panel. How did you know that your wires were not going to be short? I wonder if there are recommended panels brands for FPE swaps for this reason.

[@electronicsNmore]

If the wires are too short, you will be forced to extend them. No other option if you cannot pull more of the wires/cable into the new panel.

[@a11ten071]

Great Job TNX

[@WAVETUBE84]

I got a FPE breaker box. It has different bus bar design that looks really bad. The panel is warm, a lot of the time. I'm gona have it replaced. One crucial factor in how many amps a circuit breaker box is rated is the size of the bus bars.

[@electronicsNmore]

+WAVETUBE84 You must have a Stab-Lok panel. Those are the panels which are the big problem.

[@WAVETUBE84]

Probably. The mfg.s try to come out with their own proprietary design that cannot be copied (patent infringed) and so you have to purchase their product. I'll be changing the panel this year. C/B panels have been out for almost a century. I think they should be standardized: all the same breaker sockets, etc. So should oil filters: all Ford, Chevy, and Dodge V-8s out to use the same oil filter. that would save a lot of time and lower the cost of inventory....

[@ZZZZ-zg3zb]

I have thus Zesco (sp?) Panel and once in a while one particular circuit arc's . I clean d contacts and its good for 6 months, then i replaced d CB but it still arcs. Ever since i added my fish tank to d circuit after about 6 years on it ,d power goes for 1,2,3 minutes out but CB doesnt trip , I toggle d switch ,power comes on it dies this for about a week (20 times) then it stops like nothing happened and 6 months later it does it again.

[@electronicsNmore]

Poor connection between the breaker and busbar. Move the breaker to an empty space if available.

[@ZZZZ-zg3zb]

thanks panel full to the max no empty space

[@didimilano2438]

great video

[@aztecdreamz03]

GREAT VIDEO> NICE AND NEAT WORK

[@electronicsNmore]

Thanks!

[@footpuppypuppy8960]

Good and informative video, but you got too technical me and didn't show where main disconnect is outside and how breaker goes in. Thank you for video.

[@heroknaderi]

I have a split bus panel at my old house and it’s already 200 amp lines I have a ge main breaker panel it has a 200 amp main breaker in it the old panel is cutler hammer ch breakers I believe I’m doing a code compliant project 👍

[@electronicsNmore]

Thanks for watching!

[@TES-bt8sv]

How much does this change-out cost (approximately of course)?

[@electronicsNmore]

TE S Not cheap. All depends on what needs to be done. For the job I did, probably $1,000.

[@s99614]

I have never had any trouble getting insurance despite having a FPE panel.

[@electronicsNmore]

You're lucky, many have trouble, especially when it comes time to sell their home. Thanks for watching!

[@jenniferwoods5903]

so how much would a job like this cost?

[@electronicsNmore]

$1500 - $2000

[@pikaonyoutube2139]

great video thanks for the information

[@electronicsNmore]

+hansley maharaj You're welcome!

[@moshe2002]

nice video, thanks.

[@electronicsNmore]

+moshe2002 Thank You! My viewers should have a very wide range of knowledge after watching my videos.

[@electronicsNmore]

+Electronic Experiments I have another in a week or two. This channel is not only an electronics channel. Many of my electronic circuit videos do not get the views they should, which is why I need other videos on my channel which appeal to a greater audience. :-) I need more videos which compensate me for all my hard work. It would also help if my viewers would share my videos and support my channel.

[@crackahcrackah]

+electronicsNmore Do you have an estimate for how many hits you need to get a baseline of $10? I've been curious how this works for some time but all google searches show up are useless advertising sites that don't clarify this simple question.

[@electronicsNmore]

There is no set amount. All varies. Depends on the RPM amount and how many clicks you get.

[@Jeff-xy7fv]

I would have used a Square-D Homeline panel -- not a GE. GE panels are of the lowest quality of the panels readily available nowadays. "G.E., we bring bad things to life!"

[@electronicsNmore]

Jeff My friend bought the panel. I never had any problems with GE. Thanks for watching!

[@Jeff-xy7fv]

Oh I see. Reminds me of a customer who once tried to "save me time" by purchasing a G.E. panel for a service change. Of course, he didn't provide any of the other hardware needed, and many of the breakers were the wrong size. I kindly asked him to return it at his convenience, and that I would purchase my preferred brand (Square D) along with all the rest of the materials needed. He agreed to that.

[@GregsWorkshopOregon]

GE breakers sure are cheap!

[@electronicsNmore]

@@GregsWorkshopOregon They are, but they work. 😀

[@davidjacobs8558]

What about Square D QO panel?

[@jstarr9099]

And you didn't have to extend the SEC's? Where are you working at?????

[@electronicsNmore]

Why would I have to extend SEC's that reached the lugs?

[@AdrianHiggins83]

hmm would you recommend people do this them self?

[@moshe2002]

+Adrian Higgins general rule: if you don't know what you're doing......... don't do it

[@pikaonyoutube2139]

+moshe2002 well said only qualified people should do this

[@Jeff-xy7fv]

No, not at all! Only a licensed electrician should do a job like this.

[@blkmagik21]

That's not a FPE panel that's a Zinsco panel. They were different brands. Zinsco brand panels should be replaced as well but not for the same reasons.

[@electronicsNmore]

Said FPE on the panel.

[@stanleyelectrical]

For future reference: Zinsco panels have the multi colored breakers and some have the red breaker secure bar which the one in the video has. The breakers terminate on bus bars. On FPE or Federal Pacific panels, the bus is a StabLok and all the breakers are black with red on the handles. FPE panels are the leading cause of electrical fires in homes as the breakers do not trip when they should causing the wires when overloaded to become heating elements in the walls. Zinsco breaker panels are the second worst in that they made many with copper and many with aluminum bus bars. The problem with this is that they made many breakers with aluminum connectors and many with copper. the dissimilar metals cause corrosion and a bad connection. the bad connection will arc and the heat causes breaker malfunctions.

[@doninmichigan]

@@stanleyelectrical I've had FPE breakers come apart in my hands with the Stab looks still attached to the bus. I'm not the only one from what I've heard this is a common problem with the older FPE panels.

[@jackhembree2503]

Ok first off I'm not an electrician, my son is and his friends are too busy to work for me. You bonded the ground and neutral, I assume you were not going to consider arc fault breakers because, it's WORKED for 50+ years. It might even be grandfathered in. I'm up grading a 60 year old general switch, at least I have "br" breakers. 👍J

[@electronicsNmore]

Yes, that's the way it was before. Since this video was made, the main breaker was moved into the panel. Thanks for watching!

[@geojor]

good info...

[@electronicsNmore]

+pei bossman Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@cassvirgillo3395]

Hi Electronics & More, I hope your doing well. E & M is one of my goto channels, most excellent, well explained tutorials. Perhaps you have seen All American Five Radio, Richard 'Rick' McWhorter, he provides great graphics and explanations, like your videos. I Thankyou for your time, effort & sharing of your knowledge. You are very credible and therefore a goto channel. Happy to be subscribed. May I ask, do you live in the Bahamas? Happy Holidays, take care, C.

[@electronicsNmore]

+Cass Virgillo Hi Cass. I lived in the Bahamas for years, but no longer. Thanks for watching and subscribing. Please share my channel with others and rate thumbs up.

[@heroknaderi]

good to know thanks.

[@electronicsNmore]

Thanks for watching my video Kevin! I have many excellent videos shown on my channel. Be sure to look over my video playlists for other videos of interest to you and share my channel with others.

[@leroygreen1877]

Surprised you didn't use a panel with a main break!

[@electronicsNmore]

I added one to that panel later on. I had other modifications to do first.

[@workingshlub8861]

thats a subpanel...neutral and ground need to be seperated.

[@electronicsNmore]

Hello there. This has been mentioned before. At the time this video was made, the purpose was to swap out a 50yr old "Main" (One and only)panel that worked perfectly, but was deemed potentially unsafe. In the video that was accomplished. I understand that the NEC "considers" it a subpanel, even though it's a main. I also mentioned that I would be upgrading the meter can/main disconnect, as well as replace the service entrance conductors with 2/0 wire so the new panel could handle the full 200A. I'm in the process of doing that right now. The meter can will be replaced, and a main breaker installed in the panel, so the neutral / ground issue won't be an issue. Thanks for watching!

[@mcarroll598]

That looks like A Zimsco panel and not a FPE.

[@electronicsNmore]

Yes

[@und4287]

The reason why the breakers are called "Stab-Lok" is because the replacement of the panel and breakers stabs your wallet.

[@electronicsNmore]

Yes, they're a rip off.

[@electricianron_New_Jersey]

The trouble is GE panels are too junky.

[@electronicsNmore]

Never had any problems with them, and I've installed several over the years. I do prefer SQ-D.

[@throttleitup]

sorry 1.25" emt.

[@monteclark1115]

FPE panel? It sure looks like a zinsco to me!

[@electronicsNmore]

Door label had fpe

[@Dawezil]

Idk what type of federal pioneer pannel this is but if this is in canada or a!erica this is NOT a federal pionneer breaker pannel. :/ trust me ive seen my fair share it doesnt really look like this, search up federal pioneer breaker panel and see what pops up. Cuause i sure dont see this.

[@electronicsNmore]

South florida, not Canada

[@Dawezil]

@@electronicsNmore doesn't change a thing I just searched it up and it's still the same thing.

[@electronicsNmore]

@@Dawezil FPE or Federal Pacific it's one of those two. Not federal pioneer!

[@rileygunderson9624]

This is a Zinsco panel not FPE

[@seanseanseanseansean]

It's funny how you improperly say the words "strips" and "straight". SHHHTRIPS and SHHHHHTRAIGHT. ha ha. Otherwise, I enjoyed the tutorial very much.

[@ricardomejia4259]

Hi guys ,mi question IS ,how much IS the price for change the old panel for a new 200 volt

[@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222]

guess you don't know what objectionable current is.

[@electronicsNmore]

Of course I do, but objectionable viewers are a bigger problem. :-)

[@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222]

must suck when told numerous times you did it wrong, and still think you are right. until someone gets hurt right?

[@electronicsNmore]

Chris Meyers Nothing wrong, I removed one panel, and installed a brand new panel exactly the way the original one was installed 50 years ago. Lasted 50 years that way. :-) Can't be wrong.

[@jooproos6559]

Sorry,but i find them ugly compared to the europium standard!And they are of a kind of plastic so no worry about a shortcut.And you can hide the wires behind the terminals,so it looks more pretty!

[@fuqui035]

I'm paying my friend from New Jersey plane geared fare he willdothe work he's staying at my son's house they are bothering law

[@fuqui035]

I would not touch those wires for a million dollars he'll no

[@fredwilson8419]

bitter vee Dee yuk!

[@lakorai2]

Federal Pacific panels are extremely dangerous and should be replaced asap

[@electronicsNmore]

I know many FP panels that have been in service for decades with no issues.

[@lakorai2]

@@electronicsNmore True, but there is a reason why the company got sued out of business. They did dangerous shit to save a few pennies on manufacturing cost. When companies play cost cutting with safety people die. Toyota drive by wire, Ford Firestone, Ford Pinto, GM ignition recall, Takata aurbag recalls etc

[@electronicsNmore]

A shame that a small number of panels resulted in big problems for the company.

[@electricianron_New_Jersey]

Little sloppy and GE is crap. Overall not a bad job.

[@electronicsNmore]

A little sloppy? LOL. I think not. I've worked on many panels over the years(back to 1990), and this is far from sloppy. As for the brand of panel, they all have to pass the same tests in order to be sold to the public.

[@electricianron_New_Jersey]

Ok, I also said not a bad job. I do this work all the time too!

[@electronicsNmore]

electricalron Not bad is taken as a "So-So" job. This was a nice job.

[@qasion]

You are lucky that you didn't have to deal with the width.