Swedish Culture in Uncolonised Finland?! | Tinto Maps

[@Lord_Lambert]

What are your thoughts on the Swedish culture spreading to the coast of Finland before Sweden the state has any hand at colonising it? Do you think it is relevant in any way? forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-maps-11-19th-of-july-2024.1695964/

[@GwainSagaFanChannel]

There are Swedish speaking peoples still living in Finland while they used to in Estonia so maybe Paradox wanted to have that reflected in game

[@Lord_Lambert]

I know, I live in a Swedish speaking region of Finland. But they're Swedish speaking due to Sweden owning the land way back when.

[@Aoderic]

"Swedish" (Norse) culture had been spreading there since at least the late iron age 6-7th century.

[@danvernier198]

It might be a game mechanic but it might also just be a repersentation of how sparsely populated the area around the gulf of Botnia was. Indo-European people were up there over a milennia before the migration of Finno-Ugric peoples' into the area. It's quite plausible that just random trapping and fishing camps set up by a few families did outnumber the migratory and pastoralist tribes inland without those families having any real connection to the emerging polities in the more populated areas in the south.

[@TheReal2Bert]

Well there was this thing called the Swedish Crusades which was part of the Northern Crusades from 1150ad-1293ad. So yeah there would be Swedes in that area.

[@DaDunge]

16:45 I think it's simply that Swedish people settled the west coast of Finland as early as the vikings age. But the kingdom of Sweden has no political control over the settlers.

[@SuperEddyn]

AFAIK, the initial "Swedish" settlements in Finland did not happen through a colonization effort by the state, but were rather a "natural" spread that had begun already during the Viking age. That some locations are not owned by Sweden might reflect that the Kingdom had not been able to establish itself there yet. I might be getting this wrong, though.

[@jaakkovuori9616]

The tidbit about the march song related to Björneborg isn't actually about the Finnish national anthem. It is referencing the song Porilaisten Marssi (Björneborgarnas marsch), which is played by Yle whenever a Finnish athlete wins a gold medal in the Olympics. The original Swedish-language lyrics were also written by Runeberg, though the composer is unknown. Also, I find it pretty interesting that my hometown of Laukaa has its Swedish name used (Laukas). It's surrounded by provinces with Finnish names, and does not have a significant Swedish speaking population. The only reason I can come up with to explain that, is that it is the oldest town in Central Finland, with the other ones (including the nowadays much bigger Jyväskylä) being largely founded after Finland ceased being a part of Sweden.

[@FireDrage]

FINALLY SCANDINAVIA WOOHOOOOO. GOD, I love seeing ma own country Norway. It looks so good with these borders.

[@MattFerr100]

The Swedish government considered Finland as de jure part of the kingdom of Sweden, as pretty much everyone else in the catholic world they only considered christians real people, there were both catholic and pagan tribes of course and they paid tribute to the king but the government didn't really care if a bunch of Swedish freemen were to cross the sea and settle Finland(infact they encouraged it) as long as they considered themselves subjects of the king of Sweden, the reason why those pops aren't part of Sweden is probably because they just settled and need to better enstablish themselves before they start paying taxes to the king, also it's probably due to control

[@keizervanenerc5180]

"We f*cked a lot" Lord Lambert: *Very impressive!*

[@Lord_Lambert]

I have no idea what this is in reference to but okay :D

[@keizervanenerc5180]

@@Lord_Lambert you saying it's impressive that the population of Finland skyrocketed.

[@Corn-Flakes1000]

19:40 That's Røros, Dalaskogen would be the other two copper locations :P

[@MermaidTyrone]

Also about the Finnish songs, the one that was referenced in the Dev Diary was Porilaisten marssi. From Wikipedia: 'March of the Björneborgers' or 'March of the Pori Regiment' is a Swedish military march from the 18th century. Today, it is mainly performed in Finland and has served as the honorary march of the Finnish Defence Forces since 1918.

[@Lord_Lambert]

Also used heavily in Estonia :)

[@Helmet_Von_Moldy]

Fun fact: Denmark sold their sovereignty over Estonia to the Teutonic order in 1346

[@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands]

when I get my hands on this game, my first campaign will definitely be in Finland. trying to break free from Sweden and if possible trying to restore/convert to the "Suomenusko" etc. and conquer Sweden with a bit of reverse history. etc. Great Video !

[@GustavSvard]

4:50 they *are* lakes! Epic highland lakes among the not very pointy Scandinavian mountains. One of them has outflows both towards the Baltic and the Atlantic seas, thus arguably making the rest of Scandinavia an island :)

[@engrammi]

Oh boy! I am positively surprised by this one! Having the tribal division and finnic paganism is huge! With these already in place all of the rest is just minor nitpicking about location names etc. Johan is even more based than I imagined.

[@Einulf_]

19:43 that is Røros Bergstad and the circumference. The royal palace in Copenhagen has copper from Røros on its roof.

[@theodorepinnock1517]

Regarding your story about the failed proposal for Norway to give a small part of land to Finland so they could have a new tallest peak, you're correct that it failed because it was illegal under the Norwegian constitution. Norway and Finland have extremely close and friendly relations, it had overwhelming support among the Norwegian population, and it would only have required moving the border, as I recall, about 30 metres to put the mountain's peak within Finland. However, as I understand, following the Napoleonic Wars Norway found itself in a personal union under Sweden, and there were massive fears that Sweden would take advantage of this to encroach upon and poach Norwegian territory, so it was written into the Norwegian constitution that the territory of Norway was completely, absolutely, inviolably indivisible, and therefore even such a small gift of land to Finland was indisputably illegal, and to change that would have required passing an entire new constitution to write in an exception.

[@danvernier198]

How is Fänrik Ståls Sägner anti-finnish? It's about an injured officer wanting to go back to the front to cover a retreat of the finnish army when Finland was still an integral part of Sweden. He's referring to how his own army is retreating before the Russians, worrying about his own compatriots being captured while he's unable to help.

[@Lord_Lambert]

it was a bad translation that I was looking at.

[@PWDino]

The wasteland within the provinces in northern Sweden is also lakes so it do makes sense even if they don't impact the game :D

[@MattFerr100]

No Iceland, L

[@Jean_Jacques148]

Icelands all I cared about.

[@thedeadlysquidward1641]

Are you the guy y from the forum

[@Aoderic]

Translation of the rhyme: I must, I have to get well, that cannot be "argued against" (haggled) I have to get up, even if I lay in the grave. Listen, hear, you are hearing the cannons at Jutas. There the fate of the "Finnish"* army is decided. Battle at Jutas, Finland. 13th September 1808, between Sweden and Russia. * likely the Swedish army in Finland, rather than an army of Fins.

[@Porilainen91]

The Finnish Army in this context refers to the army of the Swedish crown in Finland, mostly made up of Finnish conscripts. So a bit of potato-potato case

[@Aoderic]

@@Porilainen91 Yes, there could likely be ethnic Fins in the army. It's was more to point out that there wasn't an independent army of Fins, like from a third Finnish side in the war.

[@Porilainen91]

@@Aoderic Aye fair enough

[@joluoto]

He is talking about Porilaisten Marrsi: Björneborgarnas Marsch. It is usually plaid during events for the Finnish military. Runeberg actually gave it words, but tose really doesn't matter, it usually just plaid as a march.

[@danvernier198]

19:40 You're indicating the copper location furthest to the west which is Röros in Norway, Stora Kopparberget is the one furthest to the south.

[@TaksuversionX]

arctic or continental does not make any sense in the western or southern Finland because of Foehn wind from Scandinavia. Continental in the east and arctic in the north sure. There should also be way more suomenusko because sword conversion is not that fast anywhere in the world. And it has not been that long since tavastian and karelian crusades by the swedes. One would also think how do you crusade against woods and swamps. Petty kings would make way more sense than emptiness. Sure there are almost no records beyond legends and some viking sagas about what was going on in Finland(and offhand mention by some romans). By using archeology different kind of swords and trinkets have been found in various graves that would imply some sort of military happenstances. I would also fragment finnish culture a lot more. Maybe by dialects.

[@somedesertdude1308]

it's cold tho

[@MattFerr100]

9:45 you can't improve perfection Lambert

[@Cool_Night_King]

Finally time stamps , thanks 😁

[@theodorepinnock1517]

If there are locations with Swedish culture and therefore pops, but which are not owned by Sweden, I wonder what the threshold for a country to own a location will be - in EU4 a colony became a full province once it had 1000 population, but in this map we can clearly see plenty of fully owned locations with less than that.

[@BamseTheBear]

återtåg dosent have to mean retreat, it can mean "march of return" or something of that nature, way more positive in my opinion

[@gloriousrobotbunny3275]

denmark being in a bit of trouble sounds super exciting for a game as denmark, speaking especially as a dane :D

[@bolle9810]

One problem I have is that this culture map includes the Gutnish culture in Gotland but not the Geatish on in southern Sweden.

[@Threxer]

23:44 You will never believe who wrote the poem.

[@Lord_Lambert]

I looked it up after I finished recording :sob:

[@Speedster___]

Who wa sit? Carlos Rex?

[@Lord_Lambert]

Johan Ludvig Runeberg

[@ArcaniIgnis]

I wonder now how many locations Madagascar will have, since it's roughly the same size as Scandinavia

[@Speedster___]

Map makes me think of stellaris where you want to rush planets to get the quicker growth speed especially if exponential growth plays a big part. It’s roughly 400 pop then it goes to 1200 pop. Can you link the Iceland thread too?

[@Haesteining]

The Poem sais the return of the Finnish army, not the retreat.

[@DaDunge]

23:00 Finska hären is not finska haren. Finska hären is the finnish host, finska haren is the finnish hare.

[@RainBrain26]

I NEED the caucasus maps. We don't already have them, do we?

[@Lord_Lambert]

not yet

[@Gurbuyten1146]

Lambert talking about lumber . lol :)

[@Lord_Lambert]

Lord Lumbert

[@DaDunge]

23:30 Your translation is not great. Återtåg (lit march back) can be a retreat but from the circumstances this means a triumphant return. And Kanonerna vid jutas means the canons grow hot.

[@dboe1239]

German maps, I can't wait!

[@DaDunge]

19:15 Story Kopparberget is not in Norway, it's the copper province between the iron provinces north east of Vänern.

[@Lord_Lambert]

Yeah I misplaced my big copper mountain :(

[@safs3098]

Shouldn’t there be more marches in Finland and Baltics?

[@Dourios_96]

16:10 That is strange probably an error no?

[@safs3098]

Why is Denmark still a unified nation? Weren’t they split into multiple parts under different rulers?

[@McHobotheBobo]

It isn't, notice Scania is independent

[@DaDunge]

6:00 Helsinge is not the Sweidsh name for Helsinki, the Swedish name for Helsinki is Helsingfors. Of coruse that wasn't buuilt yet a this point.

[@Lord_Lambert]

I know :)

[@engrammi]

Sort of right. Helsinge is Swedish for Helsingin pitäjä. The city of Helsingfors was founded later, but Helsinge has been there from the 1200s give or take.

[@qwinn9963]

Mad finish voices

[@FireDrage]

Well, Denmark is considered part of Scandinavia along with Sweden and Norway, but I don't particularly like that official definition. So to me at least Finland is a part of Scandinavia as well. Anyway, also northern Finland is part of the Scandinavian peninsula, but not Denmark at all. That's with modern borders tho.

[@Lord_Lambert]

I agree... dont tell me wife :P

[@douglastakle8242]

Yeah but geographical regions are often influenced by culture when they are defined.

[@Aoderic]

Scandinavia is a cultural area, not geographic. It comes from the name from latin "Scadia" which was believed to be an island, later is was established that it was a set of islands and the southern tip of the peninsula; Sjælland, Fyn and Skåne. These were all Danish lands, and the tribe of the Danes where first traced to Skåne. So the Danes and Denmark are the first Scandinavians. Swedes and Norwegians comes from the same Germanic root as the Danes, and for a long time their common language was known as "Dǫnsk tunga" (Danish tounge) only western Norway and the island of Gotland spoke discernable different languages (but Germanic), and the northern area was inhabited by Sami people. Scandinavia today is the cultural group of the three Kingdoms Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Historically you can if you really wish, extend it to culturally similar possessions. Like Iceland, Feroe islands, Åland and Swedish Finland. But we prefer the "Nordics" or "Norden" (the North) That also includes Greenland and Finnish Finland. Putting Finland in Scandinavia is like putting Canada in Latin America. It's just nonsense.

[@Kernelowski]

What is all this about?

[@baragsen]

T̶o̶r̶i̶l̶l̶e̶ Till torget I guess...

[@DaDunge]

8:30 You've been there and you don't know it's pronounced Ume? the å is silent.

[@Lord_Lambert]

The swedish I speak (and the bride) is finlandsvensk, and the only pronunciation I heard had the å. Maybe thats just another one of the pronunciation differences between swedish and finlandsvensk?

[@Threxer]

@@Lord_Lambert The Å is usually silent in the northern parts of Sweden but down south it's usually spoken.

[@bertilcoolson3922]

@@Lord_LambertUmeå is more formal but Ume is what people usually call it (I also think it depends if you're from southern or northern Sweden)

[@DaDunge]

@@Lord_Lambert No it's a diffrence between "endonym" and "exonym", sort of. Even in Sweden most people pronounce the å, except people who are from Norrland they say Ume and Lule instead of Umeå and Luleå.

[@danvernier198]

@@Lord_Lambert Umeå and Luleå have the Å's pronounced in southern Swedish as well, just not around the area where they actually are. After all they don't live in the river.

[@Einulf_]

I think finlad has about 100k lakes? Norway has about 400k

[@Lord_Lambert]

Finland has 188k, Norway has 20k

[@Einulf_]

@@Lord_Lambert not sure where you are getting your numbers, Norway has 450.000 lakes, Finland has 187.000. Finlands lakes are way bigger tho.

[@Einulf_]

@@Lord_Lambert hey, i might be wrong here, ill look into the actual numbers. Edit: I see whats going on here. Theres a cut off in size on the numbers you are working with. Norway doesnt have many big lakes, but we have more lakes. So it depends on how you measure a lake.