Switch To A Trackball Mouse And Save Your Wrists

[@mrsansiverius2083]

Split keyboard: on Trackball mouse: ready Proprietary software: gone KZbin shorts: horizontal Yup, it's boomer time

[@atemoc]

It's the best time

[@rothbardfreedom]

Thinkpad: ✅ Arch: ✅

[@vincentas1]

mouse pad activated

[@voidspawn2351]

​@UCNFkjkT000gkDy9h3JLbDZw DT know that he need to make the shorts in Vertical for them to get real views, but he think that you are crazy if you watch a video in Vertical mode and doing in horizontal to kick the man ... so the shorts is he make is just a joke

[@ewrietz]

Gotta love DT

[@Steve-lz8vv]

You have succesfully converted into a full meme setup.

[@camerontgore]

No he's still missing the foot massager under his desk lol

[@tf2368]

@@camerontgore and the milking machine

[@daftmell5237]

full meme would be a 35% split keyboard with kailh low profile switches and a kensington slimblade in the middle

[@redgeoblaze3752]

Not until he goes full on Gentoo CLI only mode.

[@skelebro9999]

@@camerontgore xD

[@RedBearAK]

The secret to avoiding RSI is to reduce repetitive motions that cause tendons and muscles to be under continuous stress. Which means there is no magic bullet device that completely solves the problem. You need to switch on a regular basis between multiple different input devices. Since a big roller ball like the Kensington Expert requires a lot of finger movement it can actually make carpal tunnel inflammation worse. The tendons that move the fingers all go through a tight space in the wrist area where the carpal tunnel is also located. One of main devices I would recommend is actually a high quality multi-touch trackpad like the Apple Magic Trackpad, that would let you move the cursor around mostly by moving the entire hand from the shoulder, together with the forearm. But taking frequent breaks, keeping the muscles relaxed and noticing when anything feels under stress or irritated, and changing devices to change the stress patterns is what will really keep RSI at bay for life.

[@makingvideogamehistory3028]

This is late but using an apple trackpad completely wrecked my wrist. I would recommend that no one buy the external apple trackpad.

[@penguinsushi8442]

@Davon Corbett By moving your arm (not shoulder) you reduce the amount of wrist bending, preventing wrist pain. Same goes for normal mice too I think.

[@giin97]

@@penguinsushi8442 yeah, I tend to minimize my wrist movement when using a normal mouse.

[@Poetry4Peace]

@Davon Corbett dw no one cares if ur late fs

[@Poetry4Peace]

@@penguinsushi8442 imtrestimg will try learn tiss! Im a mouse research addictty with g603 4* mouse with tab swicth shortcuts and moarr!

[@mrsansiverius2083]

Hey DT, are your chair and desk ergonomic as well? They're probably the most important things for proper posture and avoiding RSI.

[@zvezdan956]

Back strength is more important than chair.

[@zvezdan956]

@@TheRybka30 sitting will atrophy your back no matter the posture. maybe you can squeeze more life out of your back with a good chair but it will go bad if you are weak.

[@Poetry4Peace]

@@zvezdan956 twoel support best ting ever motivationaldoc be teaching meh

[@breadpirateroberts4946]

finally, DT joined the trackballers One of us One of us One of us

[@fiddledotgoth]

80 bucks though? Why are trackballs so expensive ? I can get a cheap mouse that works perfectly ok but I only found one cheapish handheld trackball and its a bit short on buttons...

[@breadpirateroberts4946]

@@fiddledotgoth I use the logitech trackman, its about 20 USD and it has its own article on the arch wiki. As far as being short on buttons, imo as long as i have left and right click and can get a middle click/scroll functionallity working, thats enough. The mouse should serve mouse-related functions and nothing more. If i have some special functionality I need I can handle it with a keybind

[@BrucesWorldofStuff]

One of us One of us One of us Logitech T-RB22 TrackMan for 15 years or so... Lol New ones on Ebay are $200 (US) and up, used $120... Paid $50 bucks for the first one... Have 4 now... Lol LLAP One of us One of us One of us

[@BrucesWorldofStuff]

@@fiddledotgoth I've had my Logitech T-RB22 TrackMan for 15 years or so... Lol New ones on Ebay are $200 (US) and up, used $120... Paid $50 bucks for the first one... Have 4 now... Lol LLAP

[@haifutter4166]

Just got my Gameball Trackball 😍 Only after the purchase I found out the open source Ploopy Trackball would have been a comparable alternative too.

[@xtuartb7851]

Thanks for this - valuable advice. I first met trackballs when I worked for a software/systems contractor to the UK defence forces in the early 80's. They were in use on flight-control desks, and also on sub's. The balls were bigger than the largest ones I've seen available commercially, and must have cost a lot, but there were obvious operational reasons for using them. They were also built-in to the console desks, so their height was minimal. I got an Expert trackball a long time ago and used it until I mainly used laptops and transitioned to pads. Coming back to desktop, I tried the Expert out again, as I now have some arthritis in my thumb and fingers. I found it uncomfortable, for a couple of reasons - the height of the ball meant my wrist was bent too far back for comfort, and the ball itself was too far back towards me, which meant my fingers were also cranked back. Also, the buttons were too far forward, which meant I had to avoid moving the ball when I clicked them. I really needed to avoid a mouse though, so I did some research, and ended up with the Kensington Orbit with scroll-wheel, instead. The ball is almost unique in being angled forward, and the buttons are towards me from it. The scroll-wheel is quieter than the Expert too. The only downside is the ball is smaller, which means it doesn't have such nice dynamics - those giant military ones were fantastic from that point of view, you could keep fine control of the pointer even when the environment was rockin' and rolling'! Anyway, I'm sure you and anyone else would be making the right choice to go for a trackball for most applications. I have experience of all sorts of graphical interactive devices over five decades, from light-pens to gaze-directed input. When I first started in experimental psych, when we were doing experiments to track people's eye movements, the subjects had to heroically wear hard contact lenses with sticky-out reflective dots.. Oh, and I had the privilege of using one of the very first pen-input devices - it took up most of a small room, you were surrounded by relays and paper-tape punches, and the moment you put your stylus down on the small pad, the whole room erupted with noise, as you can imagine. It's all so simple now (*sigh*).

[@Poetry4Peace]

Lmao thanks for your sharing ur experience i learnt alot ✌️

[@sumnerd69]

dude I don't have any rsi or carpal tunnel syndrome but I freaking love ergonomic stuff. been using trackballs and ergonomic keyboards for years. very happy that you show these awesome tings to lots of people

[@AtomToast]

Hey DT, try putting the trackball inbetween your keyboard halves. It feels a lot better and you actually make a lot more use of the split nature of your keyboard with a way healthier sitting position

[@joshr96]

Switched to this months ago and I too noticed a huge improvement with my wrist pain. Glad I made the switch before the pain developed into a more serious form of RSI. I agree the scroll wheel can be noisy, but after a while I stopped noticing it.

[@Poetry4Peace]

Can u record sound like this guy was talking so uh

[@DrDiemotma]

As a software developer, I tend to use the mouse a lot at work, and I suffer from wrist pain since over a decade ago, when I did my PhD and worked about 12, 14 hours a day with a computer. Half a year ago, I purchased a Logitech Ergo (thumb trackball), and immediately felt that it was the right decision. And one thing you mentioned hasn't been praised enough, in my honest opinion. The mouse is always at the same location. You do not have to look, you can stare at your code, and reach out to the mouse without hunting for it subconsciously. For me, who likes to stare my code to death like a cat looking at a laser spot, that is a total game changer.

[@incubusnb]

I started using a Logitech trackman marble wheel in like 1997, when it finally crapped out after more than a decade of use I switched to the Logitech M570 which could be considered the much more cheaply built successor to my old one. I went through a dozen of them before I picked up an Ergo about a year ago and it has been the best version that Logitech has made. Such a great mouse. I've been using this mouse style for so long I can't use a standard mouse. I have even played competitive shooters with it and used it for gaming of every kind.

[@przemprore]

I also can say that I had an episode with Logitech M570 and I don't know if that's only my problem, but after using only this trackball at work and at home after some time I had a pretty bad thumb pain! Even if I felt in love in that thumb trackball I had to switch back to standard mouse.

[@DrDiemotma]

@@przemprore I think it depends on very small details in physiology. For one a thumb trackball might be the best choice, for someone else these bigger ones for the whole palm like discussed here, a third and maybe the largest group will be most comfortable with a vertical mouse. The best mouse is that which you are comfortable with the most, I guess.

[@wolfymanstar317]

I really enjoy your content dt

[@DistroTube]

I appreciate that!

[@remasteredretropcgames3312]

@@DistroTube Nasty. Get better wrists.

[@an93lofdeath]

Welcome to the trackball club, I've had an elecom huge for a year now they really help with strain they are amazing.

[@iqgustavo]

I love my Elecom Deft trackball although I would love to know how it compares to the Elecom Deft Pro... Vs kensington

[@an93lofdeath]

@@iqgustavo I wouldn't know, the huge is amazing so I'm sure it would be a good trackball.

[@TheBlueThird]

How does that mouse work with vim & emacs? 😉

[@francescovolpini]

it does not. you use the keyboard

[@TheBlueThird]

@@francescovolpini Dude, it was a joke...lol

[@francescovolpini]

@@TheBlueThird i know you can't click on most terminals lol

[@Tufhhuyy]

@@francescovolpini I've found more terminals that you can click on than ones you can't. Just about setting it up usually. Of course, it depends on what level of interactivity you expect that click to give you.

[@davidr2421]

@@Tufhhuyy Mouse support is worthwhile for resizing splits in vim and tmux, imo

[@jonathanking4097]

I swear I was just searching for this exact trackball right before you uploaded. Using the Kensington Orbit right now, but probably going to get an Expert wireless for portable work.

[@Wookiee925]

I was gaming on exactly that trackball last night. (I literally bought it so I could game again without the pain mice have been giving me since I received a bad hand injury) Takes a bit of getting used to but once you get the muscle memory you fine. In the Kensington software you can enable acceleration, so the faster you soon the ball the further the cursor moves. Once you get the sweet spot between sensitivity and acceleration you good to go. I'm sure there must be some way to hack those under Linux too

[@jupiterho11ow]

Got my Expert a few months ago. Whenever I used a regular mouse, clicking would send a little jolt of pain up my arm. Haven't had any problems since switching over.

[@kmg501]

I've been exclusively using Kensington Expert Trackball's for about thirty years now. I recommend getting a gel pad to support the base of your palm or wrist.

[@voidspawn2351]

6:00 the game part is Easy on a Trackball .... i got one of the Logi tech Trackballs that DT show in the start and i can play FPS NP, it is easy to make a 180 turn and get someone that is behind you i use this kind of trackball for 10 years and it help me a lot, please try it will help you too.

[@ricardillapujagut8073]

Trackballs can result in finger fatigue after long usage. From my experience, the best type of mouse (at least ergonomically) is something like a Wacom tablet, where you point the cursor with the stylus.

[@sololoquy3783]

That actually makes sense because the forearm is not twisted. Just thinking out of the air here, I imagine using vertical mouse could replicate the hand position of using stylus then, yeah?

[@soy_ari_gutierrez]

I switched 2 months ago to an expert wireless (because i love having my desk out of cables). This was a one-way ticket! The only complain: the provided wrist pad is not comfortable for my big hands; but I've solved it with a detached one, and sitting it down my wrist, which lets my fingers fall comfortably over the trackpad.

[@soy_ari_gutierrez]

Almost 1 year after this comment, I can confirm that switching to a trackball is a one way ticket. Also, I've bought a second trackball for the office.

[@farrelltim]

If you’re worried about RSI I strongly recommend a thumb type trackball. I used Kensington for a number of years, but it ultimately gave me RSI in my wrist. I switched to a thumb type and it went away and has been gone for years.

[@Syncratci]

I ended up getting thumb pain from a thumb-style trackball lol. I think the ultimate lesson (especially as you get older) is to take breaks and stretch. Nothing is going to be ergonomically perfect for everyone, especially if you spend 16+ hours a day doing it.

[@prometheus9443]

@@Syncratci Same! Got thumb pain very soon after I got my 150 USD trackball mouse from Logitech. :( Had to stop using it. Now, a year later I get thumb pain even if I play with my mobile phone for too long... I'm 35 by the way. I also have pains in my wrists and in the ass from sitting too much (also in the forearms, from the pressure of putting them on the desk, which I used to do until a few years ago - now I can't rest my forearms on chair or car armrests, the pain starts soon) - after 2 decades in front of a stupid computer for many hours practically every day. :( Breaks indeed. Nothing else will do it. The terrible thing is you have no warning signs for many years and then it happens pretty suddenly ... and even if you stop doing it for months ... it comes back pretty soon when you start doing it again. :( edit: I also have pains in the "balls" of the wrist, where you lay your hand on the pad/table when it's on the mouse. So I have to hold my hand in the air due to the too strong pain... :(

[@arkieda]

@@prometheus9443 Sounds like you need to see a physiotherapist, if you can afford one. I did that partway through my grad degree and it made a massive amount of difference in the amount of pain I was in. Also switched to a trackball :).

[@alexevier]

@@JM-tj5qm now my eyes are burning

[@Poetry4Peace]

I got m575 Logitech ergo,i love ma g604 too with many shortcut buttons but man it takes tolls on ma baby wrist 🥰 .. lookin at getting proper mx ergo now after week trial wig 575 as i want more shortcuts 🤭 hehe xD

[@karolus0xA]

One thing that I can really recommend when using trackballs is enabling mouse wheel emulation(create file with new libinput inputclass in x configuration files) while holding one of the buttons, this way you can use the ball as an amazing scroll-wheel. For Kensington I use the back button for it as it can still be used for it's original purpose without messing with other keys. Forward key might be better on other trackballs as you are less likely to go back in your browser/file manager by accident.

[@fiddledotgoth]

I got one of these for relaxing on the sofa while still being able to work the laptop and don't regret it despite the lack of mouse wheel www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353412440303?hash=item524905e0ef:g:89MAAOSwmZhgQNPp Your post just nudged me to see if I can reprogram one of the buttons (which presently doesn't do anything; any idea on how to even find out if a button on a mouse device is registering...?

[@Nobody90019]

That's brilliant. I wish I had seen this before I posted my comment. I'll look into it.

[@karolus0xA]

@@fiddledotgoth I have Elecom relacon for a simmilar reason. It's not just for being a couch potato, it's pretty useful for desktop use as it's good when dealing with multimedia playback and just reading/scrolling trough lot of websites and documents with more relaxed posture.

[@Poetry4Peace]

Hmm sounds cool where u input this i aint got this btw

[@duser]

The only reason I don't want to change to a trackball is because of thumb clusters on my regular style mouse. I have mapped so many shortcuts to it, I feel naked without those thumb buttons. However if I find a vetical style mouse with a thumb cluster, I'd switch instantly.

[@umutnumanoglu1056]

It'd be nice to see the comparison to a vertical mouse. Thanks for the video

[@hendrix4597]

switched from mouse to logitech mx ergo thumb-trackball. wristpains are gone and I'm happy with it.

[@DrDiemotma]

I really love that thing, even though I'd prefer an angle in between those two of the Ergo.

[@ChristopherCompagnon1AndOnly]

I have this one because we cannot find simple USB wired trackball nowadays. Good product, but less than the USB wired.

[@megasuperlexa2]

I can’t believe you’ve overlooked the Slimblade model. It is right below these two on that amazon page! much more thought out, the scroll is done with the same ball and not an additional “ring” - by just rotating the ball clockwise-anticlockwise. And the sounds it produce are very satisfying

[@ronaldcraig4166]

I use the Kensington Orbit Trackball with Scroll Ring -- love it

[@fossware]

Same

[@fossware]

Planning to switch to an Elecom huge

[@nikolayhidalgodiaz9463]

I use regular mouse configured to high sensitivity. One micro-movement to move across both screens. Before that, I had a prominent bulb below the palm on the right hand from constant friction with the table, now it's entirely gone. Btw this keeps the mouse at almost constant predictable position as well.

[@eldarlrd]

Same, I just use high DPI for everything.

[@xDarkWav]

I think I'll personally keep using a "classic" mouse for now, but I've always been a big fan of using the mouse at high sensitivity levels (1000+ DPI) to reduce the overall necessary way of travel. Sure, it does require more dexerity, but also saves you from a lot of wrist/arm strain...

[@absolutelyproprietary6896]

I'm using my mouse at 5000-6000 dpi...

[@redcoder09]

@@absolutelyproprietary6896 I use my mouse at 12000 DPI

[@1994Warlock]

Hey DT! A quick question: have you ever considered using a apple magic trackpad on linux? Are there drivers available? I live in a dual-world and due to my work I am stuck between Windows and Linux. On Windows there are some pretty good workarounds to get it working in a way that is quite similar to the performance over on a Mac, but I never tried / seen it on Linux. For some type of people it might be even more beneficial than using a trackball mouse like the Kensington models. I personally like to switch between different types of pointing devices: Trackball, Trackpad, Trackpoint (Thinkpad), Mouse. This prevents RSI best, I think, since you simply change the complete way of interaction from time to time.

[@slembcke]

I bought a pair of that same model over a decade ago now for the same reason. My wrists have thanked me ever since. A few years ago, my home one died after I dropped it. (misaligned the opto pair for the scroll encoder, and was never able to get it to work consistently again) I replaced it with a Slimblade and really like that one too. Speaking personally, I love trackballs for gaming too. I find the right acceleration curve paired with the ball's natural momentum very satisfying. You can just sort of fling the ball and catch it at the right time to stop it, almost exactly like you would scroll on a modern touchscreen.

[@InspiredFortunes]

Since pandemic I am working from home with a standard logitech. But I will try this on my home office setup.

[@notinajaronmars]

What's up DT. I can relate to long hours editing music, video, photos. I found something called a "vertical mousepad". It put's your hand into handshake position with a regular mouse. I am much more accurate and quick with a regular mouse so I appreciate how the setup works. Hard to describe briefly. There's some trade-offs but overall worth it. May be another option for you. Orb control makes one called Mouseramp.

[@rgfiesta]

I've been playing the wired Expert Mouse for 5+ years now for video editing and gaming. I would love to move from optical sensor to laser but the scrolling ring on the new trackball is different from the old one. I wish Kensington would release a laser trackball with an independent scroll ring. I have pits on my Expert Mouse ball and asked Kensington if a replacement is available so I can extend the life on my trackball.

[@mrbigberd]

L-trac makes an awesome trackball with a laser. Ploopy makes a modern version of the Microsoft Explorer trackball which is no doubt the most ergonomic trackball ever created (and their stuff is completely open source too).

[@Ben-bf4gn]

the Kensington expert is AMAZING. Its one of the few well made reasonably priced long lasting trackballs that is also ambidextrous, which I need since I'm left handed. I use it both at home and at work, since I'm using a computer 12-15 hours day (work/personal total). I usually use my pointer and middle fingers to operate the ball/scroll wheel, and map the lower right button for my left click to be operated with my thumb and the right click mapped to the upper left button to be operated by my ring finger. The other buttons I have mapped for different functions depending on the specific application (everything from autoCAD to zoom).

[@th34lch3m1st]

Trackball, in my opinion, is not 100% ergonomic. Yes, you don't move the wrist but you have to keep the back of your hand lifted in an unnatural position (look at the position of your hand when you stand, that is the natural position). It's almost the same position of a standard mouse and the support point of your hand is right under the wirst. The most comfortable and natural position, in my opinion, is with a vertical mouse. The support point is on the softest part of your hand, your wirst is straight, in a natural position, and none of your arm/wrist legaments are in tension. And if you don't want move your hand even for 2 centimeters there's vertical mouse with trackball. Plus, you can have 4 easy access buttons on your thumb (in addition to the other 5 buttons for the rest of your fingers), a very comfortable scrolling action with your middle finger, and you can game as if you were with a standard mouse .

[@electricalstuff259]

For typing i use a 'floating' hand motion that i just sort of developed myself subconsciously as i was growing up. I don't anchor my hands or wrists to any point and just let them float freely over the keyboard like when you're playing a piano. I can't touch type as i feel this puts your hands in an unnatural fixed position. Moving your whole arms instead of your fingers makes typing a breeze. I use a computer for several hours each day and have done for the last 25 years, and i've never had a single ounce of pain in any hand, wrist, arm or fingers. I also type 95wpm so not too shabby considering i only use two fingers on my right hand and one finger on my left hand, which i didn't even realise i did until i watched closely as i was typing this comment since i'm usually just looking at the screen. A ball mouse sounds awesome though because i really hate using a trackpad and it's not always convenient to have an infra-red mouse depending on the surface.

[@jrlepage]

Funny you mentioned this man. Got a Kensington Slimblade last week and love it. Also got an Ergodox EZ recently (your review of the EZ is how I stumbled onto your channel) and I love it. Actually chose it over the Moonlander, though I may get a Moonlander for work. Took very little time to adjust.

[@skye1596]

My first experience with trackball mice were when my dad had surgery on his right arm, and needed a mouse for work. He first got a Kensington finger operated and later a Logitech thumb operated, and he's still using the Logitech way after his arm has healed! I have tried out both of them, and I love them! There's just something so satisfying about using a trackball mouse, I can't describe the feeling.

[@georgemcray]

A long time ago I had a problem with my right wrist. I went to the doctor, did everything he said, all the tests and everything but nothing came out of all that. Then, I searched online for people who had the same or similar condition and found a vertical mouse from a university in the US that really was the game changer for me. After a short period of using it, the weird pain/annoyance in my wrist was gone. Also, a very important thing I changed was not to use double-click anymore. Instead, I'm using single-click for opening files and everything else. Those 2 things saved my wrist.

[@1994Warlock]

Actually I bought an Expert Trackball mainly based on your recommendation. Got it in an "as new" state on ebay for 55 bucks. It is a quite strange feeling but I think I am already hooked. The concept of using you complete hand to move the mouse around paired with the 4 buttons and the scroll wheel (yes, it sounds horrible...) is very unique. At least I look a lot more nerdy when using my computer now. ^^

[@cypherbuddha]

Thanks for the review! Would you say you're as efficient with a trackball now as you were with a mouse?

[@nichtgestalt]

I just saw your banner of your channel! I really like it! Just wanted to give some appreciation for that :D

[@dereklomax161]

I use the Moonlander keyboard mouse controls only for mouse control. Your hands never leave the keyboard, its amazing!

[@UltraZelda64]

That is one bizarre keyboard. The two things that helped me the most to reduce RSI were 1) reducing the use of the mouse in favor of keyboard shortcuts and 2) learning and switching to the Dvorak keyboard layout. Tiling window managers also helped me greatly, with their natural use of the keyboard instead of mouse for their general use.

[@zedth2]

I've been using that exact mouse for a few years and I'll never go back

[@rengamesitout]

I had wrist pain for a while, so to combat this, I just rammed up my DPI, and use my fingers to control the mouse rather than using my wrist, or arm to move. It's helped a lot.

[@mechadrake]

did that in chilhood. but for speed reasons in shooters :D Never had any problems, guess this was accidental strain prevention :D also cant use low sensitivity mouse or trackpads on computers, because not used to being that slow with a cursor :D

[@Nobody90019]

It's funny, I bought an ergodox EZ partly on your recommendation if I remember correctly. However I work so much and so fast paced that I haven't made the switch yet because I can't afford for my speed to drop. Yesterday (before this video was posted) I ordered a thumb trackball mouse. Logitech 575 if I remember correctly. I think a lot of people are doing work from home gigs and end up working a ton because of it. Really destroys your body if it's not ergonomic. Side note: I plan to build a dactyl manuform with an integrated trackball. The ones online that I've seen have no scroll wheel. I've been thinking of imbedding the scroll wheel from the MX master 2S into the dactyl manuform, on the right half slightly north of the trackball and thumb cluster buttons. My goal is to eventually get a ergonomic chair like a Herman Miller and install some mouse pad arm rests over the ones that come stock. I'll then place the two halves of the manuform on either arm rest. I should be able to wire them together under the chair and connect them to a 2.4ghz transmitter and a battery which will connect wirelessly to my pc. I want to make a chair setup where I have no arm or wrist movement at all as I control my PC. It would be nice not to be tied directly to my desk as well. Feel free to connect with me if this is something that interests you. I'm currently looking on sites like fivver and upwork for a designer who can modify already forked manuform designs for the scroll wheel integration.

[@Tyler-Kearney]

Working in IT and doing college online, I use a computer for large amounts of time a day. I started using the Logitech MX Ergo M575, still getting used to it but the transition is far easier than I thought it would be.

[@maximus6884]

For anyone reading this, we must understand that our hands should not lie flat on desks. Our palm must be always in "half shake angle" or vertically placed compared to table surface. Hence, the most ergonomic stance should be a vertical trackball. Not otherwise. I would like to hear others openions too.

[@mario7501]

Recently got the moonlander. I learned properly touch typing two years ago - before that I still didn't look at the keyboard, but I used my own style and maybe only 6 fingers and one of my thumbs. After learning the "proper" way, I got much faster but my fingers start hurting after a few hours of programming. Normal keyboards are really awkward for programming you're twisting your hands line a maniac to reach all the special symbols and brackets etc. I can't afford getting RSI, so I'm quite excited for my moonlander to arrive.

[@baderalfaydi9865]

The trackball used fot small desktop space not to relax your arm. You can lower and increase regualr mouse sensitivity to just use your wrist and fingrers without moving your arm.

[@SgtElev3n]

back in my days the balls were under the mouse

[@eeaaay]

Dude, It was in the Paleozoic era)

[@nikolaychechulin3494]

As someone who switched to trackball about half a year ago, I can say a couple things: 1. Buy one with a scroll wheel 2. Do not throw way your mouse! Trackball might be a replacement for casual use, but if you need to, for example, edit photos or play some games, then there is no competitor to a good old mouse

[@Coffeeratgaming]

hey dt as i was looking into the scrool wheel aparently ,the Scroll ring fix for this model: Just remove the magnet. The scroll ring will be as smooth as the one in orbit. Add some silicone grease to the bearings and enjoy

[@ChristopherCompagnon1AndOnly]

Ok, DT. But could you show how you have configured the buttons on your Linux OS ? Did you set some specific parameters or just use it with default setup ?

[@DavidStruveDesigns]

I've had a trackball sitting on my desk for decades, it's the Logitech Marble which is quite dated these days - but I like the way it sits under my hand compared to the newer side thumb versions or the one you have (which I find the top two buttons basically impossible to reach and use comfortably). However I barely ever use it because as you said, it's no good for games - not even rts or sim games really - but also because it's not very good when it comes to creating Vector graphics or any digital artwork. At least, I've found it impossible to get along with - I don't know if others have figured out how to use it effectively and what _they_ did to _get_ efficient/skilled with it. If I was still working in an office doing basic stuff all day long, or I was coding for hours at a time I'd totally bring it with me and use it instead, but for my normal home use it's just not useful enough to keep plugged in.

[@Tgrovez]

I use the top buttons for backwards & forwards, comes in handy when browsing the web and navigating through folders.

[@TheWkd111]

Not going to argue with you, I have both the expert and the slimblade and like both, but 'repetitive strain' can also happen with these devices as well...it's in the name just do the repetitive thing. That is why at the moment I have a Delux M618 vertical mouse... long time sufferer and for anyone out there it is great to change things up every so often. I even have a collection of standard mice that I use... so yes trackballs are good but you may find that using them for long periods can lead to a different RSI especially when you get into repetitive habits.

[@d97x17]

I'm wondering if the models you show in the video are also better than a combination of a 'normal' mouse and a trackball? I saw quite a few of those when I searched for a trackball after this video

[@diogos7233]

Great video. Do u think a webdesigner could use this and get the job done?

[@DistroTube]

Yes, absolutely.

[@Mr_L1n4x]

Hey DT what about the thinkpad keyboards? They inlude a trackpoint that you can use instead of a mouse I've heard they're pretty good

[@davidyu1813]

The trackpoint isn't as good as it used to be. It's shorter than it was, so it's harder to control it. Plus you'll be stuck with the ThinkPad keyboard (which is good as a laptop keyboard but definitely not as good as a mechanical keyboard).

[@QuentinStephens]

Another convert! I've been using trackballs for over a decade. Like you I got twinges, so I switched and no more twinges. I started with the Kensington Orbit, a good basic trackball. Like you, I found that trackballs are entirely unsuited for games. How are you finding cleanliness? I find that the trackball itself takes the dead skin from my hand and deposits it underneath so needs regular cleaning, but there are two holes for screws which are impossible to clean. And the scroll ring is particularly prone to looking dirty and is also hard to clean; I barely use it, though.

[@gingered]

I've been trackballin' for a few years now due to issues with tennis elbow. My main issue was pronation (twisting the forearm) so the style of trackball you've got was totally wrong for me. The thumb style, with a slant like the Logitech M570 cleared up the last of my repeatitive injury issues, in combination with switching to a split keyboard (Kinesis Pro) and i3wm so I could reduce mouse use even more.

[@RetroPlus]

You can help prevent rsi by turning up your dpi and wearing a cloth wrap on your wrist, helps alot

[@little-wytch]

I've been using trackball for years and love them. I can even game well enough for my type of gaming, just need to change the sensitivity in the game a bit. When I had a working desktop computer, I actually used the Keymouse Track, a split ergo keyboard with a thumb trackball in each side and multiple programable layers that you could save to the keyboard. I think I got the very last one they made, but they might possibly still take special orders if you contact them via email. Last I knew tho, the software was windows only so you would need to get it to work with wine or set up a small windows VM and pass it thru to the VM to be able to flash the keyboard layout changes to it. It's sooooooooo customizeable though. I used the right trackball for mouse movement and the left one for scrolling. I only used 3 of the 6 programable layers, so there was potential for a lot more use of it than I was getting. You could even record macros to keys so it has great potential for programmers and power users too. It is currently stored away tho as I only have a laptop right now so I use my kensington with that.

[@julkip]

I have been using an ErgoDox and a Trackball for over 5 years now. I would recommend to you that you try to place your trackball in the middle between the halves of your keyboard. In my oppinion it is better for your right shoulder that way.

[@C6438911]

What also helps with a standard mouse is increase the pointer or acceleration speed, so that the pointer moves faster across the screen. less wrist movement. at least I think it helps, it helped me. Especially on a 1920x1080 screen resolution. The mouse pointer usually moves slower on 4K screens, even with the speed/acceleration on max, it is noticable, imo.

[@mechadrake]

I always used huge sensitivities on my mice, so never had that "wiping the table" injury, but acceleration hurts my accuracy, so never used that.

[@linuxrant]

on thumb trackballs like m570 you can game, and I would argue you can game better. (for instance you can make a 360 degrees turns with one move no matter the dpi, you can also shoot without making even slightest movement when clicking, also useful in many graphical programs, also you do not have to worry about any kind of mousepad surface, while traveling you can have it on your lap and it will be fine, getting used to is also very easy). only downsides are: -from time to time you have to clean the holder pins that hold the ball -you need to care for the ball not to get scratched, because then it is almost unusable. ( but you can buy spare balls online easily) Unfortunately I cannot say anything about wrist health. I always had to stretch my wrist after hours with mouse and when I work really long on m570 I still need to stretch it a bit after hours. But I never experienced anything serious with neither mouse or thumb trackball. I cannot recommend enough the m570 (it also uses one aa battery and the battery holds for a year or so (!) )

[@Swamtrooper8]

Seeing how you operate the trackball, I just realized I use my standard mouse in kind of a similar fashion. My wrist actually stays in the same position and I am just moving the mouse under my hand with my thumb and my ring finger. I have to admit I got rather large hands and my mouse is set so a speed above average - so this might be not possible for everyone.

[@rothbardfreedom]

I've been using standing mouse for a few months, great improvement over regular mouse as well.

[@rainberus6917]

Using an 'Expert' since 2019, I changed the Buttons setting with a '.conf'' file. The left top button is RMB and the Right down button is LMB, so I can trigger them with the left ring finger and my left thumb. I am handicapped with my right hand, so this works fine for me. But cleaning the trackball mouse can be tricky.

[@cypherian9821]

You used to be able to use a cue ball years ago when they used mechanical rollers and those of us who have used them since they came with a serial port connector... Used various pool balls sadly when they went to the optical sensors they switched to the lighter smaller ball.

[@erickleefeld4883]

How about using an external touchpad? (They come in both Bluetooth and USB versions, too.) That way, you’ve got the same peripheral interface whether you’re on a laptop or sitting at your desk.

[@0xREX]

The drawing tablet works fine after you get used to it. Actually, a tablet is sometimes better than a mouse. You can move the cursor as you like and you don't need to search for it on the screen. But I still use a mouse ...

[@elclippo4182]

HAL 9000 trackball

[@jfiorini]

This is a topic that hits close to home for me. I have an ErgoDox EZ as well; I’ve been using split ortholinear keyboards for about 5 years and can’t stand the staggered layout on traditional ones anymore. Around 2001 or so I bought a Microsoft Trackball 🖲 Pro, a thumb-operated trackball and found that the constant movements of my thumb actually aggravated RSI as much as a mouse. So I sold that and bought Microsoft’s Trackball Explorer, which is finger operated but still shaped more like a traditional mouse. I stopped using it when I switched to Macs as their trackpads are phenomenal! Once I started getting back into Linux I started using it again. It’s sitting right next me now and I was just using it with my Linux laptop. I love this trackball and hope to never have to buy another (that Kensington one looks uncomfortable in comparison).

[@Poetry4Peace]

That emoji 🤌

[@Poetry4Peace]

How staggered and what beneift split keybaord was it hard to grasp

[@erickhernandezjm]

Great, I've been using this trackball for 2 years and I really love it. It wasn't difficult to switch from a "normal" mouse, it took I guess two or three days and even I learnt how to use it with both hands. But now when I try to code and select a piece of code, copy, and paste it isn't as accurate as I expected. 400 DPI couldn't be enough for me. I'm thinking about sell it and try with a more accurate alternative.

[@casedistorted]

I'm interested in using a trackball mouse again.. they take a bit of time to get used to but I remember in the 90's on my dad's computer using a trackball and getting VERY good at aiming with them. It's nice not having to move your wrist, and the older you get the harder it is to have such high precision while aiming using a mouse. But a trackball.. hhmmm

[@durhamsmith6165]

Hey DT, why would you not just map a second layer to your ergodox/moonlanader and use that instead? It's faster and more ergonomic than moving your hand.

[@nonamebear1136]

You should have checked out the Ploopy trackball or mouse. It is an opensource project that is fully programmable with qmk.

[@benjaminsmith3151]

I'm glad to see the newer Logitech on your screen with the lower price. I might try one out. I've been using the logitech 570 for years now. It is great and cheap, but the buttons are junk and wear out at random times and start doing unintended double-clicks, and missed clicks. Last time I just ordered it from Walmart and got their replacement service, since I know they rarely outlast the 18 months of battery life. Just looking around my desk I can see 4 of them that have gone bad, but I know I have more than that. Easy to clean, and easy to replace. Cheap enough to have a spare ready to go if desired.

[@sumitmamoria]

How well does it work in programming environments. I want to know if you had any issues with selecting text and scrolling in the editors.

[@EmergencyChannel]

I feel a thumb trackball is more compact and comfortable for me. I can still use my index finger to click and move the scroll wheel like on a normal mouse but with the benefit of a trackball. Also I can game on a thumb trackball with 1200dpi. I wouldn't play competitive online shooters, but it's fine for single player games.

[@briankelley6231]

Did the original ball make the same noise as your replacement? Didn't sound like it was OEM

[@吳炯仁]

As I use M575, my pain goes from my wrist to my thumb muscle. I still like vertical mouse more.

[@theguyinthefunnyhat]

I have the cheaper Orbit and really like it for editing tasks. Also, it's just kind of fun to use. I've been considering getting a wireless trackball for a while.

[@soy_ari_gutierrez]

The Expert Wireless it could be your option! Maybe a bit expensive, but it worths what it costs. I own two of those babies (one at home, and the other at the office)

[@dharmatech]

DT: You can't game on a trackball Millipede: Am I a joke to you? Also Missile Command

[@mnemonic_de]

3:11 DT's GF: Hey DT, why are you so good at this? Well, I got some expert training.

[@nikolayhidalgodiaz9463]

)

[@danvirramesar3593]

Hay DT, would a USB trackpad be equally as good? Perhaps a comparison video?

[@giin97]

Interesting. I found this video while messing around with my coworkers Kensington mouse. The way I use a mouse, I don't see a difference in how my wrist moves, not using index and ring to go side to side. To move my wrist less, I have to use my thumb to go side to side. Maybe that means a thumb trackball might be a better option for me? Good video, regardless.

[@sfuoncall]

I don't have issues with my wrist hurting for the most part. Since I switched to a good keyboard (it is a Das Keyboard) and I use to use a trackball but I felt like I didn't have as much control as a mouse. So I switched back to a normal mouse and my wrists are still good. But I definitely loved my Kensington. It is the same model that you used just 7 years older.

[@dmitrynikolaev5743]

You can use standard pool balls with CST L-trac trackballs. You could easily find tons of pictures of this mod over the internets.

[@jmdennis1967]

Thanks for this. I have seen those mice almost like a pilot handle. I can never get used to that.design but know that some have to use those. It is nice to see some thing that works.

[@woutermeijer6586]

Hey DT, first I want to say I love your videos! But as a fellow Moonlander owner, did you know your Moonlander allows you to to set some mouse key bindings? I haven't been able to get them to work properly yet as the mouse tends to get away from me when using those.

[@Bergerons_Review]

Can you add a sideways picture for the thumbnail so I can see the angle of the wrist when you use it? Thanks.

[@TheRealJPhillips]

Great video sir. I've had mine for maybe 3 years now. P.s. also works great for old trackball controlled video games in MAME for pc.

[@AkashAgrawal03]

The problem with mouse with ball was all the gunk that got stuck and had to be cleaned out frequently. Is that’s not an issue with trackballs?

[@miklosnemeth8566]

It was in 2001 when I saw first a Logitech upside-down mouse on the desk of the CFO of our company, and I asked him, what the heck is that? He talked so enthusiastically, that I bought one for me. The first couple of weeks were experimenting, than after a I was brutally fast with that trackball, faster than with the regular mouse. So, be prepared, that eventually you will be at least as fast even for gaming with trackpad as with a regular mouse. On the other hand, I practice regularly all input methods: touchpad, regular-, thumb- as well as finger operated track mice.

[@zvezdan956]

Or ... get this: turn down your dpi so you use your arm instead of your wrist. Has worked for me for years. You just need a big mousepad.