Switching operations 101, Episode #1: Offspots

[@samdeckard201]

Idk if anyone else commented (former conductor here) after your conductor calls for three step, you can simulate them tying hand brakes, conducting a brake check ( clear, release) wait a min or two for air to release, conductor will then say "traction" or "give me a push/pull" (you can give a little bump with the motor), Conductor will say "that'll do", Call three step again and then disconnect from the cars you're setting out. If you're doing switching ops with a conductor/friend, you can have them give out car counts (distance to stop) normally we say 'take it ahead or bring it to me 20 cars to a stop/spot", 12 to a stop/spot, 7, 5, 3,2,1, half, 20,10,5, that'll do". A lot of costumers we serve will have marks on the rail where they want the front wheel or trucks spotted, so if the engineer stops short or goes a bit to far back you can say ''give me about a 2 foot bump or give me a stretch" to get the wheels in between the marks, also adds a bit of realism with scenery.

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

Thanks for the extra detail Sam!

[@What_If_We_Tried]

Really appreciate you sharing those real world procedures.

[@funnelfan]

As both a shortline engineer, and a modeler, I have a lot to say about this. Leaving cars off-spot because of room is known as "constructive placement". It can be left on a nearby siding, a siding enroute or back in the yard. Anywhere that is handy to retrieve it when needed. The customer incurs a switching charge for constructively placed cars. Your conductor is doing so much walking because he is cussing the engineer for going too slow. With a good engineer that is quick, the conductor will ride the car most often, but on the side away from the building. Don't want to get rolled up if the car jumps the rail. A good experienced crew will move much faster than what you are doing here. Most railroads require that you tie a minimum number of handbrakes of at least two or more. UP where I live requires a minimum of 4 which seems excessive in a mostly flat area. You are also required to test handbrake securement for spotted cars, and the options vary by railroad. Most common are release procedure of releasing the cars and locomotive to see if they want to roll away. Another is the "Squeal" method, by releasing and then pushing or pulling to see if the brakes are resisting movement. There is also a "by the chart" method where you tie a certain amount of handbrakes by a chart that considers the number of cars and the grade. You really should install a "keep alive" circuit in your locomotive. I makes such a huge difference, especially for locomotives used in switching. No more stalling or sound cutting out. I put one in my Rapido SW1200 for use at my paper mill where it wanders through a maze of complicated track. It would be impossible to use without the ESU power-pack I put in it. Now it glides through the trackage flawlessly.

[@What_If_We_Tried]

Really appreciate you sharing those real world procedures.

[@PrinceStreet]

At 11:12 and at other times in the film you say “take your time”. It’s a good reminder. Pause to sip that coffee and absorb how good this feels to do. Equally, watching your GP drift back down to the switch, that same cadence of “take your time” is a great opportunity to appreciate just watching the model in motion. We spend money and effort making these great models and an operating session shouldn’t just be a checklist of actions but a chance to watch our models in motion; how great they sound and how neat it is to watch them moving around the layout we created. -chris

[@FHollis-gw4cc]

(Former conductor here) What a difference! I worked when we had a 4 man crew and no radios. Whole different world! Still! That conductor should have gone between the building and the cars to ensure the bridges were gone before allowing the engine anywhere near them. He also would have most likely gone inside the warehouse to speak with the manager to ensure what they wanted done. (good customer relations). Differences: While waiting for the conductor, the rear brakeman would have walked to the switch, unlocked it (and removed the derail unless it was pipe connected). After getting the OK from the conductor, He would have thrown the switch, stepped back to the engineer's side and given a come ahead signal. He would have caught the end of the rear car and rode it to the spot, where he would have stepped off the car and spotted it. The head brakeman would have gotten off at the switch. After those cars were spotted, the the rear brakemen would have given the engineer a backup signal, climbed up and applied the hand brakes, and then walked over to where the spare car was to be placed. The head brakeman, who was at the switch would have thrown the switch and given the engineer a go ahead signal. When the first car was at the proper place, the rear brakeman would spot it, closed the angle cock on the engine, pulled the cut lever, had the engine back up enough to separate the air hoses and applied a hand brake. He would have then gotten on the engine and the engineer would back up to pick up the head brakeman who had applied the derail and locked the switch while the car was being spotted. All this would have taken way less than a third of the time it takes with just a conductor with his radio and been a lot less work. You should know: Rule 27: The absence of a signal is to be taken as the most restrictive indication possible. So when the brakeman, who is controlling the movement of the train, stops giving a signal to the engineer, the engineer places the brakes in full applied position and does not move until he can again clearly see that brakeman again. Whew! That was a lot of typing and it was a long, long time ago. But still, I can't believe the amount of work and time it takes to simply spot a car on a local freight today!

[@What_If_We_Tried]

Really appreciate you sharing those real world procedures.

[@marztube6158]

Excellent demonstration of the typical process involved in spotting cars to customers, with the following pull when loading is complete. Seeing it in conjunction with a switch list would really flesh out the operational involvement. For viewers not familiar with a "3 step" its a safety measure to prevent any unexpected movement of the train or engine when crew members are between cars. This procedure will require the locomotive engineer to apply the automatic brake valve and independent train brakes, place the reverser in neutral position, and open generator field switch.

[@BrooksMoses]

Thanks! I was wondering why it was called a "3-step".

[@A383Models]

Keep sharing more videos, would be cool to see some closer views from the ground, your layout is an inspiration for many of us, greetings from Guanajuato.

[@LanceMindheim]

Thanks, will do!

[@PrinceStreet]

I like how, by presenting the film uncut this video also illustrates how much real time this operation takes. When we talk about a thirty minute operating session this is how long it takes. In the time it takes to watch this video, I could do this on a real model railroad. If the video was satisfying to watch so would the real life operating session. As an example for each time we’re wondering if something is enough.

[@user-nb1rt2nl9m]

Cool video. General hand brake securement test protocol is to tie the equipment down, under 3 step obviously, and do a release, time and test after dropping 3-step. The engineer releases all brakes and timed for 60 seconds to ensure the secured cars do not move while brakes are released. Following a good test, a set is reapplied before cutting away.

[@jeremythompson8665]

I first discovered "real" operations in your book How To Operate A Modern Era Switching Layout, and it revolutionized my enjoyment of the hobby, especially as a solo operator, and I look forward to studying this in detail. I am also experimenting with using the radio calls on my Broadway Ltd SD-40-2 to further enjoy a session.

[@346UNCLEBOB]

Hey Lance. I really enjoyed watching this. Reminds me of the good ole days switching our 1/29 scale Miami East Switch. Our new layout is set in Hickory, NC (CWCY) and is HO scale this time. I'm still following your lead in my model railroading and I do thank you so much!

[@brandonwehe8701]

Your conductor is walking way more than most. They usually hop up on a car to ride when ever possible. In the end for instance I have had them call the train back so they did not need to walk to the engine. Good call on the handbrakes. Most model railroaders don't give it any thought. When you talk it through you should give the car lengths like two cars, one car, 20 feet, 10 feet and that'll do. General rule is, the if the train moves half the distance from the last call length without another length given then the engineer must stop.

[@TolgaEastCoast]

Not the case when shoving on the customer lead. There is a mandatory stop-dismount at SALCO due to the tight clearances.

[@beeble2003]

@@TolgaEastCoast Clearance isn't tight on the other side, though -- why not ride there?

[@royreynolds108]

@@beeble2003 Depends on the customer and location. If the car(s) go into a building door, that is close clearance on both sides. If there is an overhead crane where the hook is used to unload or load a flat or gondola, the crane must be checked for its location away from the track because a crane hook is also considered a close clearance condition.

[@thomasboese3793]

Back in the day the WC was alive and well, they had a book for the local crews, (hand drawn), that showed every track (with track number) and the locations of all 'spots' and off spots, as well as any notes that help serve the customer. There may be a note that states a turnout is out of service or in which order cars of raw material must be left. (A glass manufacturer had the cars organized by the railroad and ready to dump, per their formula.)

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

Very interesting. Thanks for the detail!

[@Samstrainsofcircumstances]

Thanks for sharing. That gives me different ideas for my 6' x 18" HO switching layout. I had never thought of giving the conductor time to set the brakes.

[@Gaz3801]

G'day Lance, Another quality video. It clearly shows those who wish to get into switching simple methods to switch cars in and out. Cheers, Gary.

[@brenthopley874]

Hi there from New Zealand Lance. Great to see your layout up on the "tube" once again... Sitting on the arm of the chair beside me is "How to Operate a Modern Era Switching Layout" which I'm reading through again to refresh myself on the practical aspect of modelling switching operations. This is in preparation to trial a small N scale proof of concept module I've built being a scale version of an O scale 18 ft by 2 ft switching module I intend to start building later in the year. It's based on an industry located in Chicago, which as far as I'm aware is still served by rail, and perchance uses off spotting as part of its process in managing servicing the industry efficiently. Trust all is well, BRgds Brent

[@TolgaEastCoast]

Spectacular video, Lance! Excellent demo just like the real thing. Well explained and articulated.

[@ArborRails]

Awesome! I'm looking forward to more videos in this series.

[@What_If_We_Tried]

Fantastic video, and your layout is very inspiring, and I think I need to finally get started planning / building my first HO scale shadowbox (I have cats) switching layout. * subscribed *

[@luvindemtrains]

Nice simple switching demo. Thanks for sharing.

[@MyFingerLakesRailwayLayout]

Hey Lance, I thought that Miami salt distributor sounded familiar. Four years ago, a friend of mine sent me photos of a couple boxcars at SALCO Miami. He also has photos of these same cars on the Finger Lakes Railway the same year. SGLR 7241 and BAEX 1014. These are regulars at Cargill Salt in Watkins Glen NY. I model both these roadnames on my layout. Looks like we have a virtual interchange! (Via NS and CSX of course.) Pretty cool!

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

I was curious about that Bill and almost sent you an email asking if there was a link. Question answered, there is!

[@MyFingerLakesRailwayLayout]

@@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro small world!

[@altstiff]

Thanks for sharing Lance!

[@joedelusso1415]

Great video Lance,also have that excellent book too..👍

[@Nderak]

modeling is so good i thought th e video thumbnail was real life

[@MyFingerLakesRailwayLayout]

Good reminder to take it slow. If I was the conductor, I would be hitching a ride on those boxcars every chance I got. What was that humming noise when the loco moved?

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

That's the hum of an old loco. It's still a good runner though.

[@ichabod0391]

Lance; I noticed you like to use the switches that you have to manually 'Flick' with your finger. Do you like this style as opposed to using a switch machine and 'Flipping' a toggle? Is there an advantage to either that you can notice?

[@LanceMindheim]

Finger flipping is by far simpler and less expensive. If you utilize a switch machine there's a lot more wiring and mechanical work. For slow speed switching layouts hand thrown makes more sense. For a larger, higher traffic layouts switch machines make more sense, at least in some locations.

[@tomoconnell4235]

I have a question about the horn. Because this is a customer lead does the horn need to be blown as it approaches and crosses the street?

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

It "should" have. Yes.

[@tomoconnell4235]

Thanks Lance for the horn reply. I operate on layouts where the horn is set too loud and as I get closer to being able to operate on my own layout In want to understand the use of the horn and I have quieted down the volume in my diesels so they are heard but not by everyone in the room. Thanks for sharing via your books and this series on KZbin

[@JeanPierre-jb5ln]

Great vid of often overlooked Proto move. Presumably the necessary brakes are tied down before cutting cars free. Is three step necessary when cutting cars off (after brakes applied ) thought they just used cut levers? Looking forward to seeing more vids Thank you Lance

[@25mfd]

three step necessary when cutting cars off (after brakes applied )... yes because it also covers the switchman as he has to go in between the cars the close the angle cock and apply the hand brake

[@JeanPierre-jb5ln]

@@25mfd thanks for the info, always looking to improve realism and duration of switching. I have the pleasure of Proto Throttle so the Engineer gets to respond to 3 steps request by neutral gear position, brake full on, throttle to idle.

[@beeble2003]

9:10 "[The conductor's] going to be walking up to... the two empties so he can call out car lengths." Wouldn't he ride the front of the locomotive? And does the engineer need car lengths to be called when he has a direct view of where he's going?

[@M22OHIO]

I do this on my much more basic much more poorly modeled switching layout. I go down to the basement and do a real quick drop off of some cars and then go about my business.

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

Hello! Your work has come up with a number of other model railroaders online and people I’m friends with locally, but different people pronounce your last name differently? How would you like your last name pronounced? The thing that I heard originally was mind where the min is similar to minute but I’ve heard some saying mind as jn where your thoughts come from. Thank you!

[@LanceMindheim]

Hello. It's the first one i.e. like "minute".

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

@@LanceMindheimthank you!

[@bgm-1961]

I assume that when a railroad delivers a number of cars which exceed the customer's siding capacity, that they charge a pretty hefty premium to come back out only to reposition the cars as demonstrated in this video? And perhaps even more if the excess car(s) have to be parked several miles away?

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

I think they do charge to re-spot the cars. I'm not sure if it's "hefty" though.

[@bgm-1961]

@@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I assume it would be a "hefty" surcharge given that it's the customer's doing which has caused an over-population of their siding, thereby requiring the railroad to do extra work and planning. By "extra", I mean above the scope of a simple one-time delivery & pick-up for a customer. On the other hand, if this is a COMMON practice (of a customer exceeding their siding capacity), then I'd assume that railroads consider it normal business and as such, would probably even offer "package deals" for customers in this situation. I dunno... am simply pulling these thoughts out of my arse which is why I'm asking for how it really works. Thanks!

[@25mfd]

the customer is charged a demurrage fee for the off-spot car because that car would have dwelled beyond the free time... and yes some customers do order extra cars in on purpose, even though they know there is a fee for doing so... some customers would rather pay the extra fee and actually have possession of their cars rather than to not have them and then chance running out of product... also it should be noted that demurrage fees only apply to railroad marked cars... cars whose reporting marks end in an "X" are not assessed demurrage once the car is on customer property

[@bgm-1961]

@@25mfd Awesome info. Thanks!

[@FHollis-gw4cc]

@@25mfd I didn't know that!

[@cavhutch]

Re the "3-step" call, I've seen videos where the call was "Red Zone", acknowledged by the Engineer, and "Clear Red Zone" after the Conductor had finished between cars. Anyone else familiar with that term instead of "3-step"..?? Asking from the U.K. - it's a bit difficult to railfan properly from several thousand miles away!!!

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

They're referring to the same practice. Different railroads use slightly different terminology.

[@ThomasKlimoski]

I worked on a short line and we used "Red Zone" instead of "three step". The engineer would respond "centered and set" indicating the reverser is centered and the brakes are set and it was okay to step into the red zone. It all means the same thing and is dependent on the railroad and what terms they prefer to use. -Tom

[@laming2006]

Retired US railroader here. The railroads I worked for typically originally used radio terms like "In between" or "Air" (to snap the air hoses) to indicate they were stepping in between. As the Engineer, I would repeat their signal as the confirmation that I was now aware of their intent, and had the engine(s) set and centered and it was safe for them to go in between by typically repeating their signal: "In between!", or "Air!". As the years went by, the term "Redzone" came into use, and with it a more structured way of acknowledgement. Simply put, when the ground man needed to step in between (the "Redzone"), he would simply call for protection for same by saying "Redzone!". I would then confirm that I had indeed fully set the independent brake and centered the reverser to which I would respond "Set and centered!". At that point, I had developed the habit of completely removing my hands from the sticks to avoid any accidental or mindless/thoughtless moving of same. When the ground man was finished in between, he would simply say "Clear zone", to which I would acknowledge with simply "Clear", and I was now ready move again when signaled to do so. Where it became more involved is when working a job with more than one ground man. In those situations, when one would call for "Redzone", I would respond with "One in the Zone!". Indicating that I was now aware that one of them was entering the Redzone and the engine was set and centered for them. As senior man, when working with more than one ground man, I always taught them to NEVER use the Redzone coverage of their fellow worker but ALWAYS call for their own. Thus, while ground man #1 was in the Redzone and ground man #2 needed to be in the Rezone as well, he would also call for "Redzone", to which I would respond "TWO in the Zone". That let them know that I was aware of both of them being in the kill zone (which is basically what "Redzone" means). When one of them was finished in the Redzone and hollered "(Name) clear!", to which I would say "One of Two clear!". When the second in between ground man was clear and said so, I would then acknowledge "Zone clear!". Safe railroading is all about good communication, whether radio or hand signals.

[@cavhutch]

Thanks for the replies! I was aware "3-step" & "Red Zone" cover the same activity, just wondered how widespread the difference in terminology might be. 👍

[@BC-fx6ud]

@@laming2006we had a similar practice in USAF loading bombs on aircraft. One time the crew member on the bomb lift truck did not set brake. I barely moved my hand before it was smashed bad. He got a good ass chewing.

[@erikdekuil4629]

How do you throw the switch and keep electrical continuity?

[@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro]

I'm not sure I fully understand your question Erik. The turnouts are thrown manually. The frogs are powered with Tam Valley Frog Juicers.

[@erikdekuil4629]

@@LanceMindheimCustomModelRailro that fully answers my question! Thnx!