Why We Venerate Images

[@Tai182]

My mind is completely blown away with the implications of this. Being made in the image of God truly changes how we ought to act and be in reality. Growing up protestant taught me about God, but discovering Orthodoxy has shown me God.

[@jacobandrus2705]

I wholeheartedly sympathyze. My heart smiles reading this. God bless you

[@jp2001almeida]

SO TRUE! I never related to something so much lol

[@MrJustListeningMusic]

Let us pray Jonathan will appear on Joe Rogan

[@chrisbrownlov1]

Yes! Although I could see Jonathan getting frustrated with the sorts of questions and pushback Rogan might have lol but id still love to see him on there

[@kwg5044]

God has his eye on poor Joe :)

[@OlympiaCHUD]

@@chrisbrownlov1 I think you might be surprised how creatively and humorously he engages with the questions in a way that honors them, and totally obliterate them. He’s not going to preach the gospel to Joe Rogan. He’s going to show how the gospel is relevant to Joe Rogan.

[@CP-qy1iq]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJXPlK2YhJp2qcU

[@chrisbrownlov1]

@@OlympiaCHUD oh yah he definitely does, I think that a big reason why his audience has grown. I don't remember what they where but I do remember seeing in videos how Jonathan has responded to some questions you can easily tell he was annoyed with, and I know Joe has the potential to ask them, specially because of how graciously Joe speaks of catholicism.

[@larryjake7783]

I'm happy the online Orthodox Christian community has been making more videos about Veneration lately. The pushback and attacks have been numerous.

[@mythologicalmyth]

Well said. Modern Iconoclasm. Heavy in movies too.

[@TheB1nary]

That might be true to a point - but you cannot and should not rest on previous defences. St. John of Damascus was a man of his time, and his excellent defence of veneration, albeit lengthy and often complicated, should be adapted to modern questions and contexts. The questions might be the same, but the reception and the analysis will change. For example, St. John of Damascus primarily dealt head on with Muslim attacks against icons and their veneration. This isn't necessarily the push back today, where the main objections stem from the reformed tradition which has had 500 years to sharpen it's exegetical and historical weaponry against anything it doesn't like. Granted, the Orthodox position is much older, but it's weapons were best arrayed against an islamic push back or internal objections. The world has changed, and so has the arguments and the evidence and so the technicalities of the objections. Laziness is no excuse now - it's simply not good enough. Perhaps the reasons for Orthodox angst against questions about icons - and the apparent exasperation they express about it - stems from a lack of engagement with western theology and theologians. The latter have a somewhat more academic style, and prefer their debates a bit more reasoned than "because the church said so". The reformation already destroyed any idea in the western mind that the church is and should be an absolute authority, and that's where we are at now. It's wrong, but that is the root of some of the rejection of Orthodox defence of veneration: the authority of tradition. For me, if you started there, everything else would fall into line...

[@mythologicalmyth]

@@TheB1nary the world keeps changing in circles. Our God does not change his standard according to the entropic degradation of the anti-theist modern world. That was wordy but lacked substantive rebuttal. What is your objection, or perception of the world’s from your POV?

[@mythologicalmyth]

@@TheB1nary agreed about the RC then Prot schism. Tradition is mocked and irrelevant to the modernist.

[@mythologicalmyth]

@@TheB1nary I’ll stand behind my argument that the tangible experience with Christ and his church, part of that being veneration of icons, is the end all to the modern anti-theist delusion that science knows all and we can experience it that is a tangible Christ

[@nelsonbaker88]

Thank you for this content! I am a protestant brother; however, lately, I've been joyously Blessed by the Orthodox Church! I am so glad to know that there is a great value that I can now understand on this topic! ❤️

[@xisailuo]

The scholarly approach is necessary for apologetical reasons, but this approach really helps deepen the understanding. Thank you!

[@jonathanabuthan1373]

could not have said it any better, my friend

[@jenniferb4324]

Now I see people in general entirely differently. This video has healed my perception of the human race and individuals around me. Also, so many of the Saints sayings and Scriptures make better sense to me now. I’m so thankful for you Jonathan and for this video, and praise God that these scholars and detail seekers have gotten enough attention to bring this topic up and consequently this video as a balsam and a healing to our (or rather my) thinking.

[@SauerkrautX]

Could you elaborate? How or why do you have a different perspective now?

[@mik569]

@@SauerkrautX There have been MANY insulting, blasphemous, attack videos from evangelical protestant preachers attacking Mary, Saints, Veneration. Johnathon pageau making a video is encouraging to those who are Orthodox to keep the faith and traditions passed down from the ancient church. I don't understand why they don't focus on spreading the word, doing charity....instead of persecuting orthodox Christianity. Just my analysis.

[@panoramicprism]

@Lynn Einarson to be fair there are plenty of Orthodox doing the same to protestants. I've been one of them, unfortunately. Lord help me. However, I do agree with you. Jonathan Pageau has been so very helpful.

[@NavelOrangeGazer]

It turns out the horrific view of humanity present in calvinism goes hand in hand with the iconoclasm present in that blasphemic system.

[@jenniferb4324]

@Sauerkraut X @Naval Orange Gazer has said it, the Calvinist mindset says that the human race is totally depraved. This view had seeped into my thinking. Jonathan reminds us that people were made in the image of God. Remembering this helps me when I’m tempted to look at people’s faults and reminds me to rather see the image of God, the goodness that they are imaging. When I’m in church for example, I could look around and notice that there are flaws and faults all around or I can look around and see the beauty of God all around. Even people with the worst sicknesses (sins) still have that image of God, it’s only dimmed or disfigured. This is helpful to remember when it’s time to love my enemies. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.

[@NavelOrangeGazer]

The reasons protestants get hung up on the veneration vs worship distinction is most protestants from non liturgical anti eucharistic traditions never actually worship God, they simply venerate Him. And of course the other facet of their lack of understanding is the west's denial of the essence/energies distinction which makes a proper understanding of how God works through His saints an impossibility.

[@eddardgreybeard]

*The reasons protestants get hung up on the veneration vs worship distinction is most protestants from non liturgical anti eucharistic traditions never actually worship God, they simply venerate Him.* Straight up no-scope headshot right here. Sorry for the video game terminology, but that's what this was. Actually attending a service that wasn't protestant forever changed my concept of Church and there was no going back, and I knew in my heart if I ever came back it would be to a Catholic/Orthodox Church (I'm Catholic).

[@Ladybug099]

This comment helped me so much, thank you.

[@26354mr]

God bless you & thank you for your recent participation in the Exodus series.

[@EamonBurke]

Short answer that unpacks into a proper understanding of "Why we venerate images": Because of the Incarnation!

[@briggy4359]

Jesus is a person, not an image. We venerate the person of Christ, not the image of Christ. No graven images.

[@jojox1733]

@@briggy4359 That doesn’t seem true though. You don’t live in the times when Jesus was around, so you don’t worship Jesus’s person itself. He is not in front of you for you to worship. So, what are you actually worshipping?

[@briggy4359]

@@jojox1733 I absolutely worship Christ. He is in heaven with the Father, but that doesn't mean he is far from me.

[@bradleyperry1735]

@@briggy4359Christ is in our midst. He is and ever shall be. One way He is in our midst is through Icons.

[@briggy4359]

@@bradleyperry1735 its wrong to make graven objects of worship, regardless of who they represent

[@a1r383]

The concept of radiance from glorified humans reminds me of when we meet celebrities. We do not meet the human, but their radiant principality from the light of our screens, and they have to hide their face to be in public. Although this is a perversion of divine radiance, it's a modern relatable phenomena to help us understand hierarchy.

[@ruslpit2615]

I can’t tell you how impressed I am with your work. You and your brother are absolutely geniuses and I just love you guys so much.

[@harrygarris6921]

Many protestants would at least agree that it's inappropriate or even sacrilegious to burn or desecrate a Bible. Or the American flag. Or say a picture of their loved ones. I think we can at least agree that there are situations in which it is appropriate to have some level of respect for a material object. This is what we mean by veneration. I wish we could at least get to the level where we all understand that worship and veneration are not the same thing.

[@stefang.9763]

I think you still refer to eastern orthodoxy through you protestant eyes. You mean an object as a symbol as a reminder like when you have a memory associated with it. I'm afraid this is not what most of the EO understand through veneration or how they refer to icons.

[@themissionanglicanchurchpcola]

I'm an Anglican and I pray with icons. They are very helpful for me to draw near to God and the spiritual reality through them.

[@Patristix]

This was simply superb! Thank you, Jonathan. I hadn't followed the online discussions, but watched this and it's a truly beautiful video

[@ProfessorDropkick]

One of the best videos on this issue I’ve seen that really gets to the heart of the matter. Thank you, Jonathan.

[@joshuadavidson7985]

This video is exceptionally timely. Thank you Jonathan

[@issaavedra]

Thank you for this video. You are helping me a lot in going from atheism to Orthodox Christianity, this kind of interpretation make so much sense.

[@brambes1804]

@@bengreen171Not a very good question.

[@brambes1804]

Best wishes!

[@issaavedra]

@@bengreen171 I was convinced by the argument. Materialism doesn't hold and Christianity have the best answer to the structure of reality.

[@angrypixelhunter]

@@bengreen171 considering most people throughout history thought they needed God, and since it's unlikely all of them had a life that went wrong, and since it's unlikely you happened to be the one person to get life correctly through most of human history, then maybe the correct question is what went wrong in your life that lead you to think you don't need God?

[@issaavedra]

​@@bengreen171 That is not what I'm saying. Getting rid of a faulty worldview is the first step into looking for a better alternative, and after getting captivated by the neo-platonic interpretation of reality I ended up with Christian thinkers, with Jonathan Pageau helping grasp the argument in a better way. From there, the change in my own life was enough for me to start walking this road. Why does it bother you so much?

[@sentjojo]

When I listen to Protestants on topics like this, they make God sound so arbitrary and pointless. What I love about Pageau is his videos are always focused on what is the meaning. God creates for a purpose

[@jonbolton491]

Can you explain what you mean by pointless and arbitrary?

[@sentjojo]

@@jonbolton491 so many Protestants focus on the rules God has given us without asking why. Why did God prohibit graven images? Why did God need to come as a man? Why did God need to be born of a virgin? What is God preparing us for in the next life? Why do we struggle with these things on Earth? Why doesn't he just heal us and make us perfect? The story of scripture and the path of sanctification is not arbitrary. Everything God did has meaning and purpose, even the most mundane laws in Leviticus and the most random names from a genealogy. These aren't minor details to be ignored, they are a vital part to his plan. I am broadly generalizing I admit, but many denominations make salvation sound like a carnival game that we all play for an eternal reward. Or the flipside is a vengeful God who creates people for no reason other than to damn them to eternal torment. True Christianity is much much more than that. The polemics that Pageau is vaguely referring to started with a video from Gavin Ortlund, and that entire video is an example of missing the forest for the trees.

[@jonbolton491]

@@sentjojo Thanks for the clarification. But I will add that this arbitrariness can be justly applied to modern mega-churches but not what we normally call mainline protestant churches with their tomes of Church dogmatics. Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. These have all gone in depth into such questions. That being said, I want to make one small point. It is fruitful to dive into reasons behind God's commands as long as you keep in mind that He retains the prerogative to not give reasons for certain commands. It does not make Him arbitrary; it makes Him sovereign. He is king after all and we are subjects. He is the potter and we are the clay. Properly speaking, there is a limit to the answers we can get when we ask for the WHY behind every command.

[@sentjojo]

@@jonbolton491 True and I agree, but God not revealing his reason for doing something is not the same as God having no reason for doing it. Often we only know the reasons due to revelation

[@jonbolton491]

@@sentjojo Agreed.

[@andybohl5745]

Man, to think, Jonathan is probably THE reason why I'm seeing Orthodox and Orthodoxy trending on Twitter all the time. - I started seeing his videos way back between 2017-2018. It makes you think, when you sow seeds, even though you don't see any response or changes to the content you're putting out in the world, if you're patient, you'll eventually see those fruits come to bear.

[@AndreawiththeBangs]

Man is theomorfic…this was a fantastic explanation Jonathan. As a born and bread Protestant I thank you for making all this so clear 🙏

[@SteveBedford]

"The 2nd Commandment is a promise that God will give us an image of himself, that God will restore the image of himself that has been tarnished and broken at the fall." I've had the sense that people who reject iconography on the grounds of idolatry aren't too far off base, except that idols are a sort of inversion of icons. Icons are the true instantiation, the fullness that has now been revealed, which idols are a corruption of. Do you have thoughts on this?

[@j.athanasius9832]

I think this is the best interpretation for Orthodoxy, although as an Anglican (in continuity with the Council of Frankfurt) I would still argue that being given an image of God by God (Christ) is not the same as creating an image of God ourselves (icons). Christ indeed is the true image of God, but an image of Christ is not the true image of Christ. Otherwise, why could not Jews make a and venerate an icon of the pre-incarnate Christophanies in the OT the same way icons were made of un-incarnate angels?

[@SteveBedford]

Fractals and hierarchies. Those who are Saints are the true images of Christ, but images of the Saints are as well, at a different level

[@TheMhouk2]

@@j.athanasius9832 they probably did, look at dura europos. Lastly, frankfurt didn't really have any lasting impact in the west as Nicea II was accepted.

[@SteveBedford]

@@jacobprice4544 It's a quote from this video.

[@notmyrealpseudonym6702]

Such a treasure. Many thanks for your ongoing work

[@linden_e]

It's so interesting that we have the "older brother not receiving the inheritance" pattern again in the story about the Devil and Adam... Wow!

[@christophersnedeker]

I often find my thoughts wandering during prayer an icon of christ helps me keep my mind on God.

[@bonhamfan82]

I think this is one of your best videos yet. Wonderfully well said. Godspeed

[@mement0_m0ri]

I'm so glad that you made this video! I recently watched the video on veneration of icons made by the channel Truth Unites, and the whole time I was listening to him talk, I imagined what you might have to say about his arguments. Your response to it all, did not disappoint!

[@panoramicprism]

Oh man... the parable of the prodigal son makes a bit more sense now.

[@iphang-ishordavid2954]

People who condemn image Veneration, and say it wasn't seen in the Early Church, don't realise how really strange it would have been for the Jews in the Days of Christ to see men Bowing before Christ and worshipping Him. It would not be strange for us, because we have established the Diety of Christ, that He was God, but the Jews thought he was Merely Man, son of a Capenter, do you think many of them believed that he was the Express image of the Father? Think about the Woman anointing Christ with the ointment. To the Jews it was all pointless, there would never have believe that the God of Israel who Moses saw on the mount has incarnated in Human flesh. I think that is why the Doctrine of the Incarnation is so peculiar to The making and Veneration of images. And the funny thing is that Many people, Protestants included kiss images of their loved ones and don't for a minute stop to think about what there are doing.

[@Anthony-vm9gz]

Awesome video. Thank you for taking the time to make this.

[@HumanDignity10]

I had followed some of the online debates about this topic, and this is actually the best explanation I’ve heard. Thank you Jonathan.

[@pierremeshreky4331]

Jonathan, the amount of times you knock me down completely is quite alarming. You changed my whole perception of life and I truly love you sir. Thank you for changing my life

[@kristenswensen6451]

Great job, Jonathan. And helpful! I have a deep certainty that Jesus is the very image of God that was given, through Himself the Word, to Adam/Eve, - not just in some metaphysical, "spiritual" way but also His very human, and physical nature. In eternity, the Nazarean preceded Adam. We were made in his real image. Something like that...:-)

[@Tytheband]

Thanks for this! Once I began to see that we are ALL created in the image of God - because we ARE images of God - it changed everything about the way I live and the way I see and treat others.

[@Tytheband]

Also after reading St John of Damascus it seemed like nonsense that it is considered good to venerate God by reading the written scripture on paper from a modern printing press, but NOT okay to venerate God by kissing an icon of Christ or any beloved member of the body of Christ in the form of an icon or my own family members in person. As if words of ink on paper are better or worse than a painting or a photo or a person in the flesh. It shows how the modern world holds intellectualism / western scholasticism above true spirituality and even just basic participation in the Faith. My 1 year old can’t read, but he can and does kiss the icon of Christ, he’s been baptized, he takes the Eucharist every week and he even tries to sing along with the hymns. Westernized Christianity basically tells me that he can’t worship God until he can read and intellectually “understand” God. As if we can really understand the essence of God ever… It’s nonsense once I considered these things.

[@conornagle9528]

This is why Catholics greatly appreciate and thank the Saints and Sacred Scripture for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Even if you're not Catholic, it's worth looking at it through the Socratic Method. God bless.

[@bgrant82]

Great stuff as always, @Jonathan Pageau. 19:50 - Having become Orthodox recently, I still need to deepen my understanding of veneration and worship. However, thinking of it in terms of hierarchy helps: the way I honor the American flag is different than the way I honor my next-door neighbor vs my boss vs the president vs my bishop vs my mother vs a saint vs God Himself. Worship is truly different and belongs to God alone.

[@Theredpilledchurch]

I’m in Rome right now viewing the basilicas for the first time. Trying to reconcile these massive artworks of carvings & images with the Protestant imagery of the “old rugged cross.” The two seem so far apart. One thought I’ve had is that paganism was 100% practiced through carved image worship & I think the commandment is there to separate God’s people from pagan people. Jesus was different & wanted to be worshipped in spirit & in truth. Veneration of images confuses me as a Christian b/c frankly it’s hard to see the difference in that & idolatry when in every basilica I’ve gone into people are kneeling & praying in front of images that are not Christ. Also interestingly Jesus left us nothing but eye witness accounts b/c it’s not faith by sight that matters to him. It’s Not seeing & believing that he praises all throughout the gospels. He said said do one thing in remembrance of him & that was communion not remember him through veneration of his mom or disciples. Jesus’s blood & body cared for in your heart mind & soul. Worshipped intimately through spirit & truth not veneration & not through sacrificial acts of others. Him alone. God alone.

[@lemnisgate8809]

Amen

[@HumanDignity10]

Worship and veneration are two different things. Many Protestants have moved away from receiving the body and blood of Jesus as an act of worship. For Catholics and Orthodox Christians, receiving Jesus in the Eucharist and the wine is central to worship. The saints are alive with Jesus in heaven, they are a part of the mystical body of Christ and they are part of our Christian family. Just as you might ask a family member to pray with you, and for you, we ask the saints to pray with us and for us. We view many of them as worthy of honor (veneration) because of their heroic acts in service of Jesus.

[@user-gm9vb9zd5m]

Hello, I am from Georgia. Saint Andrew is a missionary of Mother of God to Georgia and founder of the Georgian Orthodox Church. Before he came to Georgia, Saint Andrew was called to Holy Mother of God and she announced the mission Saint Andrew was to complete - to preach Christianity in Georgia, the land of the Holy Mother of God. Apostle Andrew carried with him an icon given to him by the Holy Mother of God. According the historical chronicles and sources he left this icon to people to use it while pray. If icon is idol why the Holly Mother of God gave Apostle Andrew it and why he carried it with him?

[@Theoretically-ko6lr]

Glory to God ❤

[@codymarkley8372]

Those verses from the apocryphal life of Adam and eve shouldn't be taken as inspired, but they are absolutely a window into the understanding and culture of the early church, excellent quotation and should absolutely be considered as reliable for examining the theological understanding of our forefathers. Brilliant work Jonathan.

[@danielhixon8209]

Great contribution to this "KZbin theology" discussion, and a thoughtful way of re-framing this. For some of us who hold to a "reformed catholic" faith, the crucial issue is not whether or not people can venerate icons: if someone does that from the sort of theological framework you describe, I really do not see a problem. For many of us the issue is that Nicaea II anathematized to Hell anyone who does not venerate icons, which would include a great many of us Christians today, as well as many of the earliest fathers as well. I believe it would have been more helpful for them to approach this along the lines of Romans 14. But all that said, the real question is this: Have you already made a video about Prester John? Have I missed that one?

[@mangispangi]

I'm an Orthodox Christian too and I completely agree with you. I cannot bring myself to pray to icons and it is by no means a simple fact that veneration isn't worship. The only thing that makes them differ is the fact that the orthodox say they differ. All else looks and smells the same. I see no difference between worship and veneration of saints and icons in orthodoxy. At least in the orthodoxy that I am living in our age. And I live in a 90percent orthodox country. It is a common thing to hear from our very own priests that they don't even read the Old Testament. It is a common common common practice to become a priest because it makes you money. Icons cost 1leu at churches and monasteries printed on plastic and you can take them and fill your pockets, wallets and anything else with them. Should you "venerate" a 1ron piece of plastic with Jesus Christ depicted on it? Is that a portal? If so, will it be saved along with the other images of God aka Christians? Are all icons going to be put in an eternal museum? Or are they burning like everything else when God The Almighty will remake this universe?

[@ays.939]

@@mangispangi If you really believe this, you might as well be Reformed. Orthodox Christianity isn’t ethnic based. It shouldn’t be just based on what country you were born in.

[@everlastingphronema9700]

@@mangispangi No offense, but you are missing the theology of the incarnation. God became man. Christ came to restore man and the whole cosmos. We are not worshipping wood and paint, but honor to the image of God in particular a Saint who is not dead, but alive in Christ. The worship is still to God, because it is only Him who deifies man. In a sense we are praising what God has done. Moreover God uses icons to work miracles (I have experienced) which should give you more thought to this issue. At the end of the day you are an icon (image) of God and by His grace may we both become more like Him brother.

[@samuelresz71]

The condemnations of Nicaea must be taken seriously, and I would ask myself why what might seem like a 'nominal'or 'perhaps permissible' practice was so important to them. As an ex-protestant I would suggest that being unwilling to use icons leads inevitably to some for of gnosticism (in varying degrees to be sure). God made in icon of Himself in the garden. The image was damaged. He restored in the I carnation. The incarnation really happened. God is depictible. The son is the express image of the Father and has been shown to us. If you had a camera in the 1st century, you could photograph God. Not using images runs contrary to incarnational thinking and to one of the main points of Christ coming: the restoration of creation. By becoming man, He also takes on a physical body. God takes on materiality and proceeds to both redeem matter and redeem material things like you and me through matter. @mango spango I will add this comment: I think Fr. Stephen De Young points out well that the highest act of worship always is sacrifice. In an Orthodox Church, two main things operate as sacrifices: incense and (the highest act of worship), the Eucharist. Both are always offered to God and no one else (they prayer a priest prays before censing always offers it to God as a pleasing aroma). The Eucharist too, is always offered to God and it *is* Christ. We never eat the body and blood of St. George or offer the gifts to St. Andrew or anything. That way, an illiterate peasant knows the difference even if he doesn't have the vocabulary. "I can ask Jesus or St. George for help, but I only ever eat Jesus, and when I do, it's the most important thing I do as a Christian".

[@kincaid7156]

@@mangispangi How can you possibly be that perturbed by a practice I'm assuming you have submitted to and watched countless people perform for your entire life? Being scared of icon veneration is something that typically only affects inquisitors from Protestant backgrounds as it is foreign to them. The only other way I could see an Orthodox Christian being scared to venerate icons is if they already have doubt about their faith and are blackpilling themselves by listening to heterodox inquisitors and submitting to their frameworks.

[@hymnsake]

Best explanation of Venerating Images

[@Tyler_WI]

I really enjoy and appreciate Jonathan’s opinions and insights but to be honest, iconography has never sat well with me. Also knowing that at the earliest, iconography wasn’t accepted by the Catholic and Orthodox Church until the 6th century. I just have to go back to the early church and apostles and what they did and did not do. Probably why I’m a Protestant

[@jonathanignatiusgardner9163]

Reminds me of a powerful passage in Gregory the Theologian: “If [the devil] wrestle against you to a fall through avarice, showing you all the Kingdoms at one instant and in the twinkling of an eye, as belonging to himself, and demand your worship, despise him as a beggar. Say to him relying on the Seal [of baptism], ‘I am myself the Image of God; I have not yet been cast down from the heavenly Glory, as you were through your pride; I have put on Christ; I have been transformed into Christ by Baptism; worship thou me.’ Well do I know that he will depart, defeated and put to shame by this; as he did from Christ the first Light, so he will from those who are illumined by Christ.” Oration on Baptism 40.10 The word used is “proskuneo” which is usually translated “venerate” as opposed to “worship” in Orthodox theology

[@deepstrasz]

So while, the Judaic people had cherubim and whatnot, even on the ark of the covenant, they didn't pray to them or use them as intermediaries to God the way Christian Orthodoxy does with icons. For instance, Catholics have statues/sculptures but they don't pray to them directly or bow in front of them, definitely not kiss them.

[@stuffandthingzzzz3623]

Awesome that you can see!

[@jlouis4407]

They bowed down to them there was cherubim on the ark of the covenant and in the holy of holies. 😆 The cherubim are by definition intermediaries.

[@deepstrasz]

@@jlouis4407 There was no other way to contact God "directly" than through facing the ark, so, no, it doesn't quite work the same way as with churches. Every altar is not an ark in the true sense, but only far fetched, symbolically.

[@anne20238]

I have the utmost respect for J. Pageau. I'm struggling to understand not the use but the veneration of images. Why did it appear so late in the Church's history? Why don't we find one occurrence in the Scriptures? Many apostles died but the first Christians did not venerate their images, nor Jesus's. They could have had His most reliable image. Also, the apocryphal text is nice, but we already know why Satan was expelled from heaven. The reason is found in Scriptures and it contradicts the one from the apocryphal text.

[@GATEKEEPERpVVq347]

Jonathan I just wanted to say thank you for your work in words of wisdom. Helping me and others to grow deeper in our understanding of The Word. I have also replied recently to a video you did with Mrs. P. Discussing Communion…She was very kind in her reply. Of all the content on KZbin, yours and The Peterson’s are the most worth while. Keep an eye out for my logo. I will be a regular and may be chiming in from time to time. Best regards PVVP

[@bman5257]

Excellent video! You’re doing Oscar’s work!

[@christophersnedeker]

If you saw a picture of Jesus on a dart board would you throw a dart at it? If not then you venerate images.

[@EricDunn1234]

Great points. Helpful.

[@lorraineklimek1677]

This is a wonderful exploration of this topic. Thank you.

[@samuelscheve4509]

Thankyou for making this video, I still disagree with the veneration of icons and it is a large part of why I am not Orthodox or Catholic. However I find your argument or reasons why you practice Christianity in this manner the most compelling and honest in relation to others that I have listened to. Please continue to engage in these conversations, I really got a lot out of what you said and feel like I better understand the pro Icon Veneration argument.

[@rainking50]

What does your disagreement hinge upon, Samuel? I don't understand the debate well and would like to hear the opinion of someone on the other side. Thank you.

[@simplekillzz390]

im dying to see a symbolic interpretation of Avatar: the Last airbender. For what it's worth, it think it could be one of the most popular video's on your channel...

[@improvisedchaos8904]

There are few shows I think are a "must" to show my daughter. Avatar the Last Airbender is what I consider to be timeless. It's setting is incredibly original and spectacular; the character arch's are top tier. Literally every episode could be talked about for an hour easily. The Airbender fan base is a passionate one- he would definitely gain their attention if he did a video on it.

[@drooskie9525]

Especially since Avatar series is coming back and there's hype around it now. Not like the fans have anything else to watch for a while lol

[@bradspitt3896]

Storytellers did one, and he's Orthodox.

[@michaelkennedy6759]

First off, I think you would have been better served by responding to Truth Unites directly. You mix in the more common polemicists with a person who does actually take on the difference between veneration and worship and does so in about exactly the way you have. His case is more complex than what you give it credit for and it seems like a cop out to address the lesser arguments rather than the better ones. Next, your whole argument sounds correct in a lot of ways, but it doesn't seem to me at all that you have argued for the veneration of icons. Your incarnational argument most definitely appears to point to the image of God restored in man, and this is something that we can totally agree on. However, Paul uses your exact argument before the Athenians to say the opposite. Acts 17:29: "“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by human design and skill." The direct implication of Paul is that we are the image of God. He directly opposes this with any kind of image that can be made by human hands. Origen also tackled this saying that Christian statues and altars are those of virtues, things kept alive in the human person. Once again, the image of God has been restored in humanity and this means that we no longer worship images. The veneration vs worship argument becomes meaningless, at this point. We do not require images of any kind because the image of God has been restored in us. The NT also says that we bear the name of Christ. Once again, this is an explicit argument in favor of revering the human person as being the restored image of God. Moreover, the writer of Hebrews talks directly about the veils and how, as opposed to Moses, our faces are unveiled, we have gone past the veils of the temple to the holy of holies, we can approach God without the need of any other mediator but Christ. Since God has become incarnate and we bear His name and His image, we do not need any intermediaries. The writer of Hebrews is quite clear about how this movement you have tracked through scripture is about God's presence moving out from the few, out from behind closed doors, beyond the need of mediation, for Christ has satisfied all those needs. So this very argument demolishes any kind of cultic use of images and the veneration of Saints as special unique mediators entirely. Yes, according to 1 John, Christians can mediate for each other but these are common believers looking out for each other's spiritual well-being. There is no sense that the blessing of even an apostle would be more effective, otherwise, surely John would have advised these Christians to come seek his mediation rather than rely on the mediation of each other. I'm a fan of your videos and I consider you and all the Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ. I think the best thing that has happened because of this is that the traditions are talking to each other. I hope you will see that Protestants have reasonable objections to this practice or at least you can see where we are coming from.

[@harrygarris6921]

I don't know if it's possible to really respond to your argument at face value because you're digging into deeper theological disagreements between (at least the reformed) protestants and Orthodox. We do believe in a kind of spiritual progression. It's not just about salvation, not every single theological issue is about salvation for us, but that yes it is possible to grow closer to God and more in tune with his will as we are here on earth through the process of Theosis. That was the idea behind the practices of monasticism and desert asceticism. That's why we have saints, that's why we have sacred spaces, that's why we have relics, that's why we have miracles that can be accomplished through them. It all stems back to the idea that matter can be restored and perfected while we are still here in this present fallen state. Jesus provided the means to do this through the restoration and perfection of the human nature and the apostles and the early Christians participated in it by modelling their life and practices through the example that they were taught by Christ.

[@michaelkennedy6759]

@@harrygarris6921 I don't necessarily disagree about Theosis. Most Christians believe there is a continued transformation into Christlikeness, a continued unification with God. But it is not the elevation of particular individuals that enables mediation in 1 John and it certainly does not exempt God's people from idolatry. In fact, if we are to say the apostles and early Christians participated in the example taught by Christ, then you would most certainly have to disqualify the cultic use of images because none of them ever allowed it or ever would have. That is why Ortland's historical case is significant. Relics and sacred places are another matter although I think there remain relevant criticisms that might cross over.

[@harrygarris6921]

@@michaelkennedy6759 Even as an Orthodox Christian myself I will readily admit that it is not hard to imagine a situation in which the practice of icon veneration could be done in an idolatrous way. Believing that the spirit of God or of a particular saint is actually inhabiting the wood of the icon that you're praying in front of, for example, would be idolatry. So would ascribing any kind of divine holiness or attribute to a saint separate from their participation in God's grace. Our understanding of idolatry is not really about imagery or painting, it's about claiming that God and His creation are something that they are not. So in this sense if used appropriately as a spiritual tool icons can be helpful. As long as your prayers are actually directed at God in heaven and not at the piece of wood. And on the flip side you don't even need an icon to be guilty of idolatry. I've certainly been guilty of believing things about God that weren't true in the past. With God's grace hopefully I won't do it again.

[@braxtondubs]

You raise valid concerns with good arguments. I guess to tack onto Harry’s reply, there is a sense in which the hope of the bodily resurrection presents a redemption of the material realm. Our energies are connected to our material frame, and we profess a hope that the bodies of the dead will not be sundered forever. Those saints who have gone before us and are now glorified in Christ may be physically separated from us, but this will not always be the case. I guess this also raises the interpretative concern of time - some traditions hold to a notion of “soul sleep” while others point to a possibility of “a holding place” prior to the Second Coming (a la Sheol, Hades, Purgatory, in their various flavors). The other common view is that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, or else condemned. Then there is always the objection that God is not constrained to our conception of time … It all may get very complicated very quickly. I think another thing to note is that Christ’s own physical image, while perhaps variously depicted and not wholly discernible against any number of humans throughout history, is nevertheless a representation of his very real earthly form. Paul’s address at the Areopagus makes clear that Christ Himself is the image of God. His likeness was observed by His contemporaries, and though it was not comely or dazzling, it was the face of God. As such, His image recalls His true Incarnate reality, an extraordinary encounter which we are removed 2,000 years from. In a very real sense, the Church has become His body, but Christ also ascended bodily. I make this point only to emphasize that we confess Christ as the God-Man, not mere spirit. He is the express image of the Father, yet He is also wholly like us in nature. Therefore, just as we bury and commemorate our dead, we may represent Christ’s image as hope in His life and enduring presence. I hope this makes a bit of sense and is not too rambling! Thank you again for your thoughtful critique!

[@michaelkennedy6759]

@@braxtondubs I don't know if I totally follow, but I also affirm Christ as God-Man. My argument is about the incarnation. I perceive Paul as saying that God becoming incarnate actually means we don't need any images, even images of Christ because He has restored the image of God in us. We bear His name. We bear His image. Our bodies are the sacred places because He has made us the meeting place of God and man.

[@TravisD.Barrett]

From my understanding of the critique, the charge laid is that the cultic use of icons is not only absent from the early church, but consistently and regularly denied until several centuries later. Saying “it might have taken Christian’s time to fully understand the scope” at 19:09 doesn’t do justices, in my opinion, to the divergence we see from the early churches explicit rejection of cultic uses of icons, to the later councils who anathematize those who don’t venerate icons. It seems there is more going on then just a change in understanding, but an actual 180 turn to require something that was once prohibited. I’m a big fan of your work, Jonathan, but I do think the critique makes some significant points. It has been insightful listening to representatives from the different Christian traditions discuss this topic, so thank you for adding your voice to the conversation!

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Glory to God

[@OC-Explorer]

Does this red sweater mark the beginning of a Mr. Rogers arc? I wouldn’t mind it.

[@djamaljeanchalal4787]

It is the glory of god shines on the face of moise

[@stantheoneandonly]

Wow, that mention of the angel looking like a sphinx is very thought provoking, especially when considering how old the structure is and how occult imagery continues to pop up in things throughout history.

[@capturedbyannamarie]

I have been convinced after all the arguments for using images, and veneration images of God. I still don’t understand praying through saints and Mary. That is something I don’t see any good explanations for.

[@confectionarysound]

Exceptionally good video Jonathan

[@allopez8563]

Wait do we venerate the images? And all this time I thought we venerated the saints. Council of Trent: "we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear"

[@christopherk222]

"Icon" - Colossians 1:15

[@DamburaDioa]

This is a very good response and the topic itself is important. It brings to mind a passage from Jung’s Aion: “These few, familiar references should be sufficient to make the psychological position of the Christ symbol quite clear. Christ exemplifies the archetype of the self. He represents a totality of a divine or heavenly kind, a glorified man, a son of God sine macula peccati, unspotted by sin. As Adam secundus he corresponds to the first Adam before the Fall, when the latter was still a pure image of God, of which Tertullian says: “And this therefore is to be considered as the image of God in man, that the human spirit has the same motions and senses as God has, though not in the same way as God has them.” Origen is very much more explicit: The imago Dei imprinted on the soul, not on the body, is an image of an image, “for my soul is not directly the image of God, but is made after the likeness of the former image.” Christ, on the other hand, is the true image of God, after whose likeness our inner man is made, invisible, incorporeal, incorrupt, and immortal. The God-image in us reveals itself through “prudentia, iustitia, moderatio, virtus, sapientia et disciplina.” St. Augustine distinguishes between the God-image which is Christ and the image which is implanted in man as a means or possibility of becoming like God.” You are so right it saying we aught to rejoice in the face of this revelation, not shrink away from it!

[@panoramicprism]

Is it at all helpful to anyone that we do not venerate images of anyone that is physically alive? Because if they were physically there, we would venerate them. Forgiving your enemy who holds the image of God is worship of God. We love our neighbor as a veneration to the image of God. Yes, we also acknowledge they are human and NOT God, but when Christ says "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.". The veneration is shown to the Saints because their bodies aren't with us and we recognize them as Holy because they were so close to the ideal! His Mother was the closest to the ideal and also the MOTHER OF OUR GOD (for crying out loud). Of all the people she was the most ideal Christian. The first Christian. She tells us to follow Him, as do all the Saints. We show respect to the images, we don't pray TO the images. But the images remind us that there is life after death, God is the God of the living, and what we should be aiming for. The Saints show us that it IS possible through various walks of life that we can obtain holiness and salvation. They are our heroes. And if I'm being honest, if we don't acknowledge those heroes, something takes its place. I'd rather venerate the icons than Beyonce or whatever trash celebrity people uphold in this society. I'd rather read the lives of the Saints and ask for their prayers than sit at the edge of my seat while I watch the Amber/Johnny trial unfold. I'd rather look toward heaven. The Saints are alive, and we venerate their relics too. Because God is in them! God heals through all of us. He talks through all of us. He teaches through all of us. What to do and what not to do. And if our Lord tells us that we should love our neighbors as ourselves and forgive our enemies and give the poor water... we venerate one another AND HIM by doing so.

[@DeoCreative]

"Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 13:43 "And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow." - Matthew 17:2

[@NotesFromTheUnderground476]

Oh good, I'm actually glad there is finally something I don't agree with you on. With love and respect Brother Jonathan, God Bless 💛

[@brettjournal]

I’m not an Orthodox Christian, however I want to become one. And I was wondering if anyone else has noticed a LARGE trend of Orthodoxy presumably everywhere. It feels like something is moving within all humanity gathering us for something to come.

[@jlouis4407]

Become eastern catholic instead

[@bandie9101]

best content on this topic so far :) 👍

[@jennymcgowin9140]

Sooo good Jonathan!

[@redtrek2153]

Virtually all Christians worship alongside human depictions of Christ. In that sense it's unfortunate to see this controversy being stirred between denominations. It's a difference in degree, not in kind.

[@rachelhendricks432]

Jonathan, this was really great - thank you. Have you considered the implications of all of this, the redeemed image of God that exists in the human person, on our current culture of pornography? When you were talking, I couldn't help thinking about how your approach to veneration of images might help guide people to the repugnance of the pernicious porn culture. Thoughts? Looking forward to seeing you at the Scala Foundation Spring Conference in April!

[@nestoriancalvin4071]

Fr Seraphim Rose would refer to pornography as "the devil's iconography"

[@dmitrypetrouk8924]

3:45 on cherubs - just thought that idea of cherubs having mix of animal and human faces seems to correpond to the idea of some general possibility behind such living beings, like something closer to life itself.

[@TaboraMusic]

Jonathan, one thing that has been pointed out to me about the Sabbath that is different from other commandments, is that it’s the only one of the Ten Commandments that is not explicitly reiterated in the New Testament. Perhaps that’s not so important, but it is something that gets mentioned as to why we are no longer bound by the Sabbath rules.

[@arielteixeira4306]

Well that’s a thousand years debate. Protestants will never cave to icons but we respect our brothers 🙏

[@aim4545]

thank you! God bless you!

[@marionaziris9988]

Thank you Jonathan, for your very interesting and insightful commentary. I have always believed that God reveals Himself to us in ways we can bear or comprehend. Abraham saw Him in the form of 3 men/angels and spoke to Him in the singular, and prostrated himself. Moses through the burning bush etc. The revelation of 'I AM' as Hypostatic, personal being as emphasised by St Sophrony of Essex. Of course the Great I AM becomes flesh, human nature has been sanctified to the full in Christ, this could be a very long comment, I will stop here.

[@adrummingdog2782]

I wasn't expecting a sort of Newmanite development approach from Pageau, but this is probably the most convincing one of those that I've heard. Most EOs try to argue icons were a deposit directly from the Apostles.

[@NavelOrangeGazer]

Holy Tradition teaches St. Luke painted the first icon of Christ and the Theotokos.

[@nbinghi]

It's too bad livechats end up having so many trolls. 🙄

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

I come across fellow Catholics who question icons, mainly converts. I tell them the issue is settled, do not question it. There is nothing wrong with Icons. The Ark of the Old Covenant was a golden icon with golden angel statues, the Israelites prostrated and prayed in front of it. They sang songs and played instruments in front of it. They knew it wasn't G_d but they revered it but they reserved worship worthy ONLY for G_d in the priests sacrifice on the altar. The bronze serpent was also an icon, people were healed just by looking at it...but then the Israelites took a wrong turn, they actually began worshipping the bronze serpent, that's when they crossed over from "icon" into "idol" territory.

[@shanecawelti]

I consider myself below catholics, haven't watched. just humbled and excited. ly Jonathan.

[@DouglasHorch]

Amen

[@AllBergie]

In my Catechism our Priest said that the sabbath was not done away with. That it is still to be seen holy in the Orthodox Church

[@jojox1733]

Why? I’m actually curious about the reason he gave you, since he’s a Christian priest.

[@mythologicalmyth]

"The tempestuous nuisance of the bloviator may be worse than any mechanistic presuppositional agenda-driven ideology conjured up by the minions of modernity and their near-ancient barbarian handlers, as we know with falsifiable certainty the theoretician's motivation, argument, and subsequent direction to which they are headed." -Abin Digenous

[@jakecb6396]

Can one venerate without bowing and not being in anathema?

[@shawngoldman3762]

Excellent conversation. When are you going to be ordained?

[@djamaljeanchalal4787]

It is not because some earlier brother have done icons that it is a right think, where is the Holy Spirit in all of that.

[@callofdutywordatwar]

So Satan refused to venerate us right? Because I believe you said he refused to worship us, but I’m not sure if that’s the right word

[@AmberMcAvey]

Has anyone ordered one of JP's beautiful t shirts?? I want one so bad but had a poor quality screenprint from teespring for my Jordan Peterson shirt. After 1 wash the graphic was already crumbling and after about 3 washes the words are barely visible 😱

[@cabynoma7313]

Thank you

[@MsHburnett]

They remind us of the like of biblical figures and saints

[@kurtbansag935]

I have a question what's the difference between an ICON and a SCULPTURE? This is a question that I am struggling with... Because it was written in the ten commandments... (I commented before I watch the whole video.)

[@titisuteu]

If I may state my opinion, the prohibition of images in Judaism was articulated in Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy chapter 4 starting at verse 15. While the Exodus text simply forbids the practice, Deuteronomy not only forbids but also gives the reasons for why that is. “you saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.” Therefore you did not see God, you don’t know how He looks like and thus you should not make an image depicting Him. However, with the Incarnation, God the Son came among us. “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We have seen His Glory, the Glory of the One and Only Son, begotten from the Father, full of Grace and Truth”, Gospel of John, chapter 1, verse 14. Therefore, what we have not seen on mount Sinai, we have seen on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration, when the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus showed Himself in His full Godly and Imperial Glory, full of grace and truth. Through the eyes of the Apostles, who have witnessed this we have seen this as well. So, the Old Testament interdiction to depict God, because we have not seen Him, is no longer relevant in the New Testament, where the Son of God revealed Himself in all His glory at Transfiguration.

[@leoparra843]

can you talk about the importance and symbolism of Soldiers Cast Lots for Jesus Clothing?

[@suppression2142]

This is what James B Jordans book The Litergy Trap says about this I find this extremely compelling. Page 72 The True Tradition, The only fully authoritative tradition is that found in the history recorded in Holy Scripture, from the creation of the world to the destruction of the Old Creation Temple. This authoritative tradition ushers in the non-authoritative history of the church. There is real continuity between the two, but the foundational Biblical tradition is the authentic foundation for the ecclesiastical traditions. Only to the extent that ecclesiastical tradition develops out of biblical tradition is it valid. Now let us take a case in point. The second commandment forbade Israel to worship Yahweh through icons. In the old Creation, the sacrifices were animals, and bulls (calves) had the most weight in the sacrificial system (Lev. 4). In the temple we find bulls bearing up the bronze ocean, and one of the four faces of the cherubim was a bull. Only animals could be put on the alter. Thus the focus of liturgical imagery in the old creation was the animals sacrifice, especially the bull. In the old creation, then, the perversion of worship took the form of making iconic representations of bulls and worshipping yahweh through them. In the new creation it is a man who is the sacrifice. The animal symbolism of the old creation gives way to the human reality of the new. The new creation temple is made up not of bulls and lambs but of people. People are now eligible to come onto the alter and be made living sacrifices. Matching this, the perversion of new creation worship consists of making iconic representations of human beings and worshipping God through them. The two situations are meaningfully analogous. The second commandment forbids worshipping God through the medium of images, whether bulls in the old creation or human faces in the New. Now what does holy tradition (i.e., biblical history) say? We find the answer in the book of kings in the history (tradition) of Northern Israel. The Great sin of jeroboam I, "who caused Israel to sin" as kings often puts it, was liturgical idolatry, violation of the second commandment. Jeroboam I set up two calves and called on the people to worship Yahweh through them (1 kings 12:25-32). He called on the people to "behold" these calves. Jeroboam was not calling the people to worship a new god, but to worship Yahweh through the medium of calves. He expressly referred to the calf Aaron step up in the wilderness (1Kings 12:28), and named his sons Nadab and Abihu (Abijam) after the two sons Aaron who were slain for presumption. (We can easily read between the lines here and see Jeroboam was claiming that in reality Moses had killed Nadab and Abihu, and Jeroboam was only restoring the original, primeval worship of Israel. ) Aaron's calf was not another god either, but an icon through which the people were to worship the Lord. Worship at these calves was called a "feast of Yahweh" (Ex. 32:5) It was only later on, under Jezebel, that actual foreign deities were introduced into Northern Israel in opposition both to pure Yahwism and to Jeroboams iconic pseudo-Yahwism. One need only to read the book of Kings to see what God thinks of iconic worship. This is the true tradition. Now the second commandment says that the judgement for iconic worship will be visited to the third and forth generation. Jeroboam I was followed by Abijam and then Nadab, and that was the end of his line. His line only had three in it, covering only two generations... There is much more he goes into but typing this was hard. There is more I wanted to copy but my hands are in pain, I just wanted to leave this out here for people to see if you guys want to get his book I highly recommend it if you liked through new eyes by James B Jordan I think this is another great book that gets into why orthodox Christianity and Anglo catholicism is incorrect in their use of icons and veneration and he goes into much more, it's a small book but I'd like to see James B Jordan and Johnathan Pageau talk about this in person it would really seal the deal on what's true here, also Johnathan Pageau maybe you can make a video reviewing this book? And maybe refuting it if you think it's wrong? I'm interested to see what you think. By the way I'm a huge fan of you and agree with you on so much I think you are brilliant but I think on this area you are mistaken but I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong. I think the best way is to contact James B Jordan and have a conversation about this book.

[@JonathanPageau]

The difference is that the "sacrifice" is not just a sacrifice, he IS GOD. "In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped." Revelation 5.

[@TheMhouk2]

There's no point in having secondary authorities like you admit, such as the church, if they're only authoritative as far as you can see in scripture. Given everyone has a different lense to measure that with it's an arbitrary exercise.

[@MasteringJohn]

@@TheMhouk2 That's like saying there's no point in having laws and regulations, if they have to be measured against the Constitution. Or no point in having science textbooks, if they have to be measured against nature. The value of such things is dependent upon that from which their authority is derived. If they are no longer in concert with the source of that authority, then they cannot have value, as they contravene their own purpose (i.e., a law found unconstitutional, a theory proven false, a false doctrine repudiated).

[@joshuaforeman2611]

Ed Clowney wrote a book on the Ten Commandments and said the same thing on the 2nd commandment. Jesus is the true image of the Father

[@matrixlone]

Godbless

[@cooper3826]

Yo that intro music is fire. Where that come from?

[@andresguzman8399]

Hi everyone, I've been trying to find the video from Jonathan where he talks about double inversion, can someone drop the link please, thanks in advance.

[@rexgloriae316]

Oscar bless!

[@bionicmosquito2296]

Here is something you don’t see every day. A Protestant Christian looks into early Church history to demonstrate that icon veneration is an accretion, and an Orthodox Christian responds with Scripture! With that said, it is not a very worthy approach to call Ortlund dishonest - and do so several times. Engage his points instead. He made a strong case based on the writings of the Church fathers that the practice of veneration was a late development - 6th century or so, as I recall.

[@frjamesbozeman5375]

1) Jonathan laid out the terms of his response in the first minute or so of his video: he would not take the "scholarly" approach (one that he finds insufficient to the task of understanding icon venerations within the Christian tradition), but rather he would take an approach that notes scripture and the tradition of those who use icons in worship. 2) Having watched many of Ortlund's videos myself, I think Jonathan's use of the word "dishonest" is at least accurate, even if it may seem uncharitable to some. Ortlund knows a lot, certainly, but it seems obvious that he sets his own personal tradition in this regard as his priority. This is especially frustrating for the reasons that Jonathan actually does spell out in this video.

[@thekingslady1]

A person who says he will draw from different streams of Protestantism to defend Protestantism against Catholicism is dishonest.

[@bionicmosquito2296]

@@frjamesbozeman5375 To your first point, yes - we agree completely. The Protestant went to history and the Orthodox went to Scripture. That's what I said. You don't see that every day. Am I wrong? To your second point: "... it seems obvious that [Ortlund] sets his own personal tradition in this regard as his priority." If this is the determining factor for dishonesty, I know of almost no Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox discussant or apologist on such matters as honest.

[@frjamesbozeman5375]

@@bionicmosquito2296 let me refine what I was trying to say. Clearly, Dr. Ortlund is an expert in so far as he is a protestant, which, from the Orthodox perspective limits his real world knowledge of what it actually means to venerate icons. Maybe he isn’t so much dishonest as he is just obfuscating the issue.