SYRO MALABAR Church CONFLICT ( What is going to happen ?) || Joseph Dinesh (JD)

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[@avidreader2023]

The priest facing the people was actually NOT called for by Vatican II.

[@midknightfenerir]

It is right of Syrian Kerala Christian people to celebrate there an ancestor’s mass.

[@DonCorelone007]

Yes, Pope Francis wants to completely implement uniformly the traditional mass fully facing the altar in the syro malabar church according to its eastern catholic tradition. Some dioceses had implemented the single table Novus ordo type new Latin mass in the 70s. But Pope Francis is so adamant about implementing the traditional altar-facing mass in the whole church. It has been implemented in all of the dioceses after the last warning from the pope in November 2022. Now only the Ernakulam angamaly diocese has the Latin type novus ordo mass. They have now tied up with atheists, ex-nuns and many other popular anti-Catholics to rebel against the bishops' synod and even the Pope himself and are trying now to break away from the catholic communion and establish their own church. Pope is a traditionalist Here. Its proves that many things people accquse him of being a modernist is not true. He is consistent in his actions.

[@josephjacob3274]

You should tell them they are doing it wrong and stop pretending to be RC. They are eastern catholics. Priests look east!

[@midknightfenerir]

@@josephjacob3274 Nobody is pretending here. The Portuguese control, occupation and even brainwashing of the Malabar Church led to this problem. It is sad to see Syriac Kerala Malabar Christians trying to cling on to a liturgical style that has nothing to do with them and forgetting there true roots and history.

[@celineritakujur9952]

Very Well explained, clearly spoken ....In times of conflicts , let's continue to stay united in Faith and pray, Let Holy Spirit lead and guide The authorities , and they may stand for Truth and Truth sets them free from all Ego's, all negativities, all confusions... Specially, let not be people astrayexd from their Faith in Jesus...

[@sunnyyacob]

You said it rightly: "the see of Peter has infallible authority in matters pertaining to morals and faith". In fact our Catholicity is linked to our obedience to the see of Rome. Now if the see of Rome has made a decision on the how the rubrics of the Qurbana should be, then it is our duty to follow it. Disobedience and that too open disobedience against the will of the see of Rome is an act of defiance and that tends to schismatic tendencies. May I remind you of the situation with the SSPX and the latin Church.

[@geethageorge8752]

Since you mentioned obedience,the Synod is also bound to obey the Pope who instructed them to make restitution for the huge amount of money that disappeared in the land sale scam. This came first. The Synod should set a good example by obeying the Pope.

[@sunnyyacob]

What does liturgical obedience have to do with financial issues? Unless you are suggesting that liturgical disobedience is because of monetary issues. If you are, then you are really missing the point of the liturgy. Don't weaponise the liturgy for some financial issues that have plagued the church.

[@sunnyyacob]

Furthermore, the liturgical issues preceeded that of the financial issues you mention. The second Vatican council asked all Eastern churches to retain its traditions and preserve their liturgical traditions (paraphrased from Orientalium Ecclesiarum). So judging by your "temporal" line of reasoning, the financial obedience should follow liturgical obedience- not the other way round.

[@geethageorge8752]

@@sunnyyacob zThe financial issue was not connected to the liturgical issue. In the context of obedience/ disobedience to the Pope. It was the Pope's order that financial restitution should be made and that hasn't been done. The mixing of financial and liturgical issues was introduced by the Synod itself. The liturgy was dragged in to divert attention every time the Cardinal had to appear in court.. The financial loss incurred by the diocese was not mere peanuts but so large that the Pope had to instruct restitution.

[@geethageorge8752]

@@sunnyyacob You are welcome to take the high moral stand The restitution papal order was issued first.

[@georgethomasn1504]

Good explanation JD bro... Before 2 nd Vatican council even the Latin mass was celebrated facing alter widely. Ecumenism and Protestant influence paved the way for the change in the litergy. Bishop Mar Alanchery is trying to go back to the teachings of church fathers and eastern tradition.

[@JoseV8]

So does that mean Bishop Mar Alanchery is trying to go back against the spirit of 2nd Vatican council !? Common sense is actually a rare sense ! How can they say they are with the Pope and at the same time make it a punishable offence to perform the holy mass the way the Pope does !? If they still think altar facing is the right thing and as you said even the Latin church was doing it that way earlier, then the Pope should begin the change from the Latin church itself. " first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye"

[@georgethomasn1504]

@@JoseV8 No not agaist the spirit of second Vatican council... Council gives freedom and urges Easter churches to go back to their roots and adhere their tradition...for centuries they have been following such tradition and of facing alter. Even other eastern churches like Orthodox and Jacobite are very keen in following it as they give more importance to the church father's teaching...It has more theological significance rooted...That's the reason they strictly follow it...

[@holyromanemperor420]

@@JoseV8 Fun Fact: The Council didn't say anything about Versus Populum. All it said is that the liturgy of the word shall be done facing the people.

[@user-cz7sb1ow5d]

Your statement that the Syro Malabar s origin to be from the Portuguese is incorrect. As a historian let me explain,the fundamental difference in the origin of the Latin Christians of Kerala vs the original Syro Malabar community! The Syro Malabar community was formed by the Apostle st Thomas & the Syrian Missionaries where as the Latin Christians were formed much later by the Portuguese. The Portugueses had nothing to do with Syro Malabar church. The history of the Syro Malabar vs Latin church community lies in it’s name - Syro which stands for Syrian! Long before the Portuguese become christians , in fact long before the western world including Rome embraced christianity, the Syrians, Ethipians, the Greeks were exposed to christianity by the Apostles who traveled East,including St Thomas who arrived via Syria to the shores of Kerala! The original Syro Malabar community, or rather the Syrian Christian community flourished in Kerala well before the Portuguese arrived in India. When the Portuguese arrived they were shocked to see a very well established Christian community. Much of the Syro Malabar church service hence follows the Eastern churches including some traditional Jewish rituals. The Portuguese were Christians from West not East ,they were & are called Latin Christians because in Europe Italy, Portugal & Spain are considered to have their language origin to be from Latin, they are Latin Europeans unlike the Northern Europeans or Anglo Saxons. The Latin Christian community in Kerala was formed much later when the Portuguese arrived they converted some people to christianity & so the latin Christians of Kerala was born. As you can see Syro Malabar meaning Syrian Malabar Church was formed by Syrian Missionaries & st Thomas , not by Portuguese. The original Syrian Christian church followed the service as it would been done by the Apostles/original Syrian missionaries/st Thomas etc however today s church has embraced a lot of latin rites sadly! The Roman Church is the latin church,it came into being far later than the Eastern church,bear in mind st Paul in the name of Rome was persecuting & killing the original followers of Christ,it was in Damascus in Syria that st Paul become a Christian. What does that tell you? When Rome was idol worshiping pagans, the first Christian followers were forming the first Christian churches in the East,in Syria, in Ethiopia, in Macedonia, in Thesolonokki( Greece) long long before the Portuguese or any Latin church was formed. This is the history.

[@roypynadath5820]

Once Pope Benedict told that there is no historical evidence to prove St . Thomas came to India and that created a lots of controversy at that time.

[@kelvinthomas9753]

This whole versus populum thing never existed in any of the rites for 1950 years, the current state of the Latin church that you see right now is more because of all the experiments and innovations that they introduced following the second vatican council.

[@MelchizedekVision]

Don't say 1950 Apostles were participated breaking of the bread as Jesus did,Not the adorientem way Adorientem way developed during/ after Constantine..

[@elvisgeorge9613]

@@MelchizedekVision The Ecumenical Councils laid out the guidelines for the liturgy and faith. Nowhere does it say anything about changing to ad orientam, so it is safe to say that the liturgies in the early church were, facing the altar.

[@MelchizedekVision]

@@elvisgeorge9613 nope only after Apostles adorientem became practice

[@elvisgeorge9613]

@@MelchizedekVision the first liturgies conducted by the apostles were like those of the Jews. They practiced Ad Orientam most definitely.

[@elvisgeorge9613]

@@MelchizedekVision even than u shud understand that the Qurbana is much much more than the last supper, it portrays the whole life of Jesus. Ad populum wouldn't make sense in that case. Also, u guys like calling urself true catholics. But there is nothing catholic about mocking the Holy Synod and Cardinal Sandri, who r representatives of the Pope himself. Mocking them in a way, is mocking the Pope. Traditional Catholic and Orthodox theology was eucharist-centered and therefore the priests always faced the altar to show how important the Qurbana truly. Mass facing the people is more of a protestant practice, originating in the protestant reformation and infiltrating the Roman Rite in Vatican 2. Now the people are favored, not God. Qurbana's in Ernakulam are more about the choir showing off their musical skills then necessarily complementing the Qurbana. The choir decides what to sing, the book is of no longer any use. The priest has the right to skip as much prayers as he wants.. These r all anti-catholic teachings and practices, not even such liturgical abuses are found in the Latin rite...

[@frricklawrenceangaleria7942]

when rome colonized a jurisdiction they destroy the traditions that is being kept faithfully and implement their ways. which is very sad.

[@susanafiu7035]

❤LOVED..GOD BLESS YOU.I 100%AGREED.Beautiful explanation.im not Indian im Samoan convert Catholic.thankyou for what youre doung for the church specially for making people understand more about our FAITH.Pray for you.keep up great work for GOD🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@georgecondookala7361]

Very good JD Let’s pray with Christ, “That they all be ONE fold under one shepherd” and not think politically

[@albertdevasia1291]

In my personal opinion the priest should face the people.Bcz we can see all the sacred things and actions the priest do in the holy mass which cause more active participation and knowledge of people.Facing east,the people are isolated from whats happening in the mass.So this tradition needs to be updated

[@visakht2322]

Well explained JD👏

[@merylbiju7090]

The offertory and the Consecration is very very important to us we empty our burdens we offer all goodnesses and our sufferings to the Sacred Host &Wine in the Chalice by LOOKING AT IT 🙏🙏🙏 Don’t want to look at priests’ back INSTEAD I live on Holy Mass I am 50+y old people like me will not let you go born and brought up in Angamali’s soil especially being proud of our beloved Cardinal Joseph Paracattil ‘s Parishioner

[@aaronjoe8759]

I had spoken to the bishop of pala and Hosur archdioceses, both, holy men of God. This is what they say....33 out of 34 diocese in Kerala support the change made. Also the lay men and the clergy of the angamaly church actually supports the change, it's the ernakulam priests that have a problem. This is all political. The ernakulam bishop and priests dislike the cardinal of the syro malabar church because he isn't from the ernakulam church and doesn't listen to their petty demands. so here's what they are planning to do, spilt the ernakulam and angamaly church, give an option to the ernakulam diocese to either join the latin rite or make the liturgical change, and change the location of the cardinal's house to pala. I've also been told that if the cardinal were to change to their (ernakulam people) liking, they will change the liturgy to the new norms. everything they are doing is purely political to get the cardinal out or show dissent towards him.

[@MelchizedekVision]

If Bishops said majority of the Ekm - Angamaly Laity suports synodal mass then they are liers... 99% Churches parish council ( Governing Body) Passed and send the statement to Bishops that they wish to continue Versus Populum Qurbana... Why these Bishops are Lying? First they said The decision to implement Synodal Qurbana was a unanimous decision... Later we found out that 16 Bishops were against it.. They are jealous of our Archdiocese due to our Historic importance, Unity , wealth and more importantly Participation of Laity.... And even now churches in Iringalakkuda diocese celebrates versus Populum Qurbana on Sundays for children...

[@blessedarethepeacemakers8783]

Let the diocese leave and integreate with a latin archdiocese then. Why prolong the conflict when there is a simple solution?

[@rossilydevassykutty9996]

@@blessedarethepeacemakers8783 Though we don't want to join the Latins, the entire church won't allow even if we wanted to because the ernakulam archeparchy is the richest diocese and moreover the headquarters. They don't want to slipp the big guy out of their hands.

[@ultron3693]

​@@MelchizedekVision Nobody is jealous of us. Why would they be jealous of us if so many of us doesn't even know the difference between the Roman Catholic and Syro Malabar Catholic Church? Why would they be jealous if the majority of the wealth comes from them? Yes, we do contribute the most as in the highest but that's simply because we are the largest Archdiocese. But since we are not the majority, the majority of the wealth is not from us. By per capita, it's undoubtedly the Archeparchy of Kottayam due to their huge immigrant workers population. The other dioceses have similar per capita income to that of our Archdiocese. None of the Saints of our Church were from our Archeparchy. Most of the great institutions of our Church are from other dioceses. So stop this "oh they are just jealous" attitude. It's very cringey. About the historical significance, stop stealing credits from our ancestors. They were strong Nasranis who fought fearlessly against the forced Latinization by those Jesuit Bishops and for the preservation of our unique Suriyani liturgy. This anti tradition movement in our Archeparchy was brought into the mainstream by some Archbishops after all these events and is relatively new. Historically, our Archeparchy was known for our strong Nasrani traditions.

[@geethageorge8752]

Wrong information. Bishops should not mislead others.

[@bridgetdoyle5820]

Thank you for the explanation! I just saw this on the news recently, and I was thinking the same thing why does it matter if they face the people when all throughout the US and I’m assuming other places the priest face the people!!!

[@merylbiju7090]

Although I live abroad I still belong to my home land ❤🙏

[@amalfrancis8861]

The Syrian Christian/st Thomas christian community before the arrival of the Portuguese is known to be under the Church of East and there was no Catholic church here prior to that as you claimed. It's after the forced latinisations and Coonan cross protest that happened after the majority Syrian Christian community came in communion with the pope forming Syro Malabar and the rest came in communion with the patriarch of Antioch forming the Jacobite Syrian church. On arrival of the British, some Jacobites formed a Protestant church called Marthomites and another division happened with respect to being under patriarch forming the Malankara Orthodox church. Sometime after that, a faction from these Jacobite groups came into communion with the pope forming the Syro Malankara church. Don't spread incorrect information about things you don't even know.

[@juliankonkani]

There were no Christians in Kerala before the Portuguese came. Nestorians are heretics. The Jacobite sect which semi-pagan Nasranis apostatized to are also heretics.

[@DonCorelone007]

It's not just true, the church of east in Kerala was in communion with the Pope during that time. So the Christians in Kerala have been in communion with the pope for centuries either directly or indirectly.

[@amalfrancis8861]

@@DonCorelone007 You are 100% wrong. Coonan cross oath, forced latinisations and ban of syriac liturgy etc happened exactly for the reason that malabar christianity was under church of east and syrian christians in kerala were termed heretics by the Portuguese bishop menesis. It's only after coonan cross protest and then split of kerala christians, majority came in communion with rome forming what's today's syro malabar church. Rest came in communion with antioch forming present jacobite/orthodox malankara christians. Synod of diamper was specifically created for this and it banned everything while forcing only latin rite. The synod itself was proved as invalid in vatican court around 1960s sometime.

[@juliankonkani]

@@DonCorelone007Until the 5th century, that is true and in those period, there were Christians all the way from Gilgit in Northwest India to Punjab to the entire Konkan coast to northern Sri Lanka. Then the Church of the East (responsible for evangelizing India) split off from Rome after the Council of Ephesus in AD 431. This was due to the Persian Church's leadership cavorting with the Sassanid Empire monarchs to court their favor and not be seen as fifth column supporters of Rome. So an empire-supported faction deliberately introduced the Nestorian heresy to the Church of the East and caused it to split from Rome; even violently purging the Orthodox supporters. Their aim was to convert the Sassanid Empire and become a state-sponsored Church as the Catholic Church was in the Roman Empire. This failed.

[@amalfrancis8861]

@@juliankonkani What is historic record on Pre Portuguese Christianity in Konkan coast, Northwest areas and Sri lanka? I am not asking about fake historic claims done from corners with vested interests like random crosses found. There are no records and not even one church in those areas that are pre Portuguese colonial rule. The christianity presently there in those areas itself is either Latin Catholicism or Protestantism. The fact is that Kerala region or Malabar coast had early christianity and even now Syriac christianity is the majority of Kerala christians, with Latin rite and Protestants being minority. There are countless mentions, copper plates edicts, many 1000s centuries old churches, tombs of syriac bishops, the unique syriac malayalam biblocal naming system, many secular historic scholarly mentions and also factual historic events like coonan cross oath protests against forced latinisations of Portuguese etc that are part of official widely studied history. For these other areas claimed there isn't even one single factual evidence. The Christianity present in those areas itself is Latin Catholicism and Protestantism that came only after European colonisations. Now Sassanid empire had Zoroastrianism as official religion. Nowhere in any proper historic studies it says about the political aim you claimed. It's such a bogus argument just like the usual arguments European colonial interests always use. It would be very surprising to know the source of that argument. The western Roman empire itself wiping out Eastern Orthodox can be seen in sack of Constantinople and countless other places in history where state sponsored Roman Catholic Latin church always trying to wipe out every other rites since the political ambitions started. Even in case of Portuguese arrival of arrival and start of colonisation in India they did same first in Kerala where the Latin rite was forced and Syriac rite was banned. Then the coonan cross protest happened. Since Portuguese anyway never had strong hold than in some Kochi coastal areas of Kerala they were eventually kicked out and after that only they went to Goa and colonised it creating present Christian community there and eventually doing all horrors like inquisitions. The Roman Latin church itself is responsible for creating the biggest ever heresy possible called Protestantism creating the biggest failure of Christianity ever look at what state the religion itself is now. It's as said "what you sow is what you reap", look at present western world which is the continuation of western christianity - it has totally become atheist with creating worse insults of Christianity than even non-christians. The church itself has fully become extinct and greatly successful in missing of converting once christian world to atheism as well as helping other religions in growing and taking hold.

[@merylbiju7090]

Now in abroad there is special devotion and procession on the Corpus Christi you all can check how many of syromalabar people &Priests have attended in UK and US (especially London & New York for eg) we must go along with Latin Churches we must experience the Divinity and Richness which is dominating for eg the Holy Wednesday’s celebration hardly our Keralaites aware of it Think what are you gaining out of it

[@merylbiju7090]

Recently I visited puthenPalli Thrissur The 24 hrs adoration chapel was one of my favourite place there they erected the yakobaya kurissu to my surprise which was disappointing... what did they gain out of it

[@plantsnrockies]

It's confusing here in the west the traditionalists go for Latin mass as allowed by pope Benedict still going on but in Kerala they use Latin for non-traditionalists and Syrian for traditional that's strange and opposite . Traditional mass in the west is the long singing mass in Latin language.

[@DonCorelone007]

In this case, Latin refers to the latin catholic church and the Novus ordo mass facing the people. Pope Francis wants to completely implement uniformly the traditional mass fully facing the altar in the syro malabar church according to its eastern catholic tradition. Some dioceses had implemented the single table Novus ordo type new Latin mass in the 70s. But Pope Francis is so adamant about implementing the traditional altar-facing mass in the whole church. It has been implemented in all of the dioceses after the last warning from the pope in November 2022. Now only the Ernakulam angamaly diocese has the Latin type novus ordo mass. They have now tied up with atheists, ex-nuns and many other popular anti-Catholics to rebel against the bishops' synod and even the Pope himself and are trying now to break away from the catholic communion and establish their own church. Pope is a traditionalist Here. Its proves that many things people accquse him of being a modernist is not true. He is consistent in his actions.

[@dominickurian704]

Tradition is not with t but with T. Because, Catholic church is not just 50 years old but 2000 years old. The correct form of offer is to break the Word facing the congregation and offering The Sacrifice facing the East i.e facing the other side as the Sacrifice is offered to God the Father, for us, the sinners...

[@merylbiju7090]

You all do what you wanted to do But please don’t interfere with our diocese of Ernakulam Angamali if we say yes it has only one meaning YES we die for our faith and our church 🙏Sacred Heart 💔 Thy Kingdom Come Deliver us from all evil powers against our diocese and our Heart ❤the JANABHIMUKHA Kurbana 🙏Ave Maria 🙏

[@ananthuruthil1887]

"The seeds of disunity, which daily experience shows to be deeply rooted in humanity as a result of sin,are countered by the unifying power of the body of Christ.The Eucharist, precisely by building up the Church, creates human community" ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA St JOHN PAUL II both sides to compromise in the name of Jesus Our Lord

[@georgemundadan3436]

The Liturgical practices should always be reformed. Pope Francis approved only the Thaksa, which is absolutely followed in Ernakulam-Angamaly Major Arch diocese. The Rubrics of the new 50:50 Mass was a contribution by a group of Bishops in the Synod, which is not acceptable to the faithful as it is a U turn

[@ultron3693]

Which Church Council taught that liturgical practices should always be reformed? You guys are now acting just like those modern day "Progressives" and Protestants who want changes for the sake of change. Also, are you serious? Pope Francis literally wrote an entire letter urging the faithfuls of Ernakulam Angamaly to obey the leaders and implement the changes passed by the Synod, "the superior authority of your Church for defining its liturgy". Pope Francis has explicitly said "......has determined not only to approve certain liturgical texts BUT ALSO the form of celebration in the way that it had been proposed some years ago."

[@josephjacob3274]

Nothing should be reformed. Look at what has happened to Latin priests latinizing the liturgy? Liturgy should evolve, never reform.

[@poustevnik1]

plese brothers, accept it. Serving mass in direction to people is better for participatiom on the people on holy mass. Cyril Vasil is very nice guy, please submit to him :) God bless!

[@SongonFirecatholicIndia]

Who is Cyril Vasil ? Why should anyone sumbit to him?

[@sunnyyacob]

He was the papal delegate on this matter. We should submit to him as he was the representative of the Holy Father.

[@holyromanemperor420]

@@SongonFirecatholicIndia The Papal Delegate

[@StFrancis9]

This tradition affects people’s focus… on the priest or on the mass.

[@SongonFirecatholicIndia]

How so ? Can u explain !

[@MelchizedekVision]

@@SongonFirecatholicIndia in Versus Populum The Altar and the Eucharist not hidden from Laity they can fully experience the Mystery of Qurbana Eg: there are meanings to priests hand gestures... Crossed hands , open hands Meanings to the preparation , offering , Words of institution, Epiclesis more importantly Breaking of the Bread In Versus Populum Laity can see understand the meaning of each gestures importance of each parts etc But in Adorientem Eucharist and these things are hiddn by priests presence...

[@pipsasqeak820]

@@MelchizedekVision But its distracting for the priest, with Ad orientiem its all the faithful and priest in union awaiting the eager return of Christ from the east, There are things that shouldn't be seen by laity or need to see. See it as a bus driving, the bus driver is not facing the people when driving, he's facing forward

[@holyromanemperor420]

@@MelchizedekVision They are not "hidden". In the traditional mass, there are tons of instances of the Priest showing the Eucharist to the people. Even in the compromise formula, it's still visible. But more importantly, why should it matter? It doesn't matter whether they can see it or not, if they are paying attention, they can fully experience the Mystery

[@nkav868]

No wonder why Jesus will take chains and remove all businesses out of the place of God.

[@binoyvarghese9867]

It's not facing the altar . ad orientum means facing the east ( orientum means east )

[@holyromanemperor420]

There were instances of it not being practical. So the Altar evolved into also representing the East. The whole point of facing the East was to face the Heaven and God and await excitingly his second coming. The Altar also represents the heaven. So while building the Altar facing the West(so the East when viewed from front) was encouraged, it was rarely ever seen as the true Ad Orientem way.

[@preema1231]

Why doesn’t the priests just stand on his hands and celebrate the mass .. 😂😂😂😂

[@SportsEditz27-px1wy]

mass is for people, everyone Gods Kids, so priest should look the people not look back thinking that God is there. its Hindu ideology. God in stachu

[@catholicdoctrine]

Hi JD, The problem facing the Syro Malabar Church is the same as that of the Latin rite. If all faithful catholics who follow the Latin Mass are rad-trads, then those who are following the traditional Syro Malabar rite are also rad-trads.

[@DonCorelone007]

It's actually the opposite, Pope Francis wants to completely implement uniformly the traditional mass fully facing the altar. Some dioceses had implemented the single table Novus ordo type new Latin mass in the 70s. But Pope Francis is so adamant about implementing the traditional altar-facing mass in the whole church. It has been implemented in all of the dioceses after the last warning from the pope in November 2022. Now only the Ernakulam angamaly diocese has the Latin type novus ordo mass. They have now tied up with atheists, ex-nuns and many other popular anti Catholics to rebel against the bishops' synod and even the Pope himself and are trying now to break away from the catholic communion and establish their own church.

[@tomphilip8179]

Not explained correctly. There were conflicts in different Diocese about the celebration of the Eucharist. So why can't all the Diocese accept the uniform code. Why are u advocating for Ernakulam Diocese . Why are u not seeing the sentiments of other Dioceses.

[@SongonFirecatholicIndia]

Why are you not seeing the sentiments of the Ernakulam Diocese ?

[@elvisgeorge9613]

@@SongonFirecatholicIndia See my problem here is that you said "they do it in the Latin rite, why not in the Syrian rite?" This statement is another form of Latinization, which Vatican II had condemned. It's wrong to analyze our traditions through the lens of the Latin Church, we have our own rich traditions, which differ from the Latin church in many different aspects. Priests in Ernakulam disgustingly loathe their own traditions and are literally more Latin than Syrian. Your explanation was good for a person looking for an overview of this issue, but you have not seen what priests in Ernakulam Angamaly do. Many basically just freehand the liturgy, will skip prayers at their convenience, will wear Latin vestments instead of Syro Malabar ones, and others, just to name a few. They all claim that by doing so, they are following Vatican II. Some even have gone far to support the LGBT community and married priests. Can you show me any documents from Vatican II stating this? Interestingly enough, the whole ad populum thing was for the Latin Rite, and the Roman Missal, not for the Syro-Malabar Taksa, or for any other Eastern rite... Please keep in mind that when you are supporting Ernakulam in this matter, you are supporting the cruel colonists who destroyed our traditions. You are supporting a Synod, whose validity is disputed, that destroyed thousands of manuscripts. You are supporting a group of people who create constant ruckus and care more about themselves than the wellbeing of the Church.

[@Sebastian-tz6iy]

@@SongonFirecatholicIndia Dear brother, not only faithful of Ernakulam-Angamaly have sentiments. The uniform mode of celebration was made possible only because all the other dioceses of this Church and its priests and faithful were willing to give up the way they were used to celebrate Holy Qurbana for the sake of the unity and communion of the Church. What is the logic of saying that one diocese can't do it when all the other dioceses are willing to compromise to end the decades-long liturgical dispute?

[@blessedarethepeacemakers8783]

@@Sebastian-tz6iy If uniformity is what you want, why don't the eastern catholic churches like syro malabar abandon their liturgy and embrace the latin rite of mass? That'll be true uniformity!

[@blessedarethepeacemakers8783]

@@elvisgeorge9613 All lies!

[@benjames046]

Very sad thing. Even if not a dogma and just practice the Synods decision should be followed to the word. And the focus should be on the sacrifice of Jesus at Kalvary.

[@paulputhenpurakkal2885]

Congratulations 🎉🎉🎉 You tried to explain the situation in a systematic approach. Your intention was good. But you failed to study the history behind the rubrics in Syro- Malabar Qurbana. You had said, without consulting the authority some of the dioceses started offering the Holy Mass facing the people. It's wrong. The truth is as follows. Imbibing the spirit of the Vatican II, Cardinal Joseph Parekkattil (The Head & Father of the Syro- Malabar Church) invited or asked the whole Syro- Malabarians to offer the Holy Mass facing the people of God. ie, the Mystery unveiled. So we have to say that the dioceses those continued the old traditions were disobeying. I won't give stress to this disobedience. Because obviously Cardinal Parekkattil didn't insist anyone to do so. That is the human & divine realm of a spiritual leader. Yes he was a visionary & man walked ahead of his time. He lived for his flock & kept nothing for him. He didn't invest in Lulu Marriot or in stock exchange but invested in Schools, hospitals, religious organizations, old age homes etc. ie, for the upliftment of the people of God. Though Cardinal Parekkattil had the right & authority to compel the other dioceses, he gave freedom, so that there may not arise any crisis or controversies in the church. He is the one who stood for unity, not for uniformity. Synodality is this unity. Cardinal Alanchery in his own book wrote regarding the possible problems that come up if we stand for uniformity in the Liturgy neglecting the unity. He wrote it in 2016/2017. He suggested there, not to stand for uniformity but for unity. So it is evident that the rubrics are not the real problem. But petty ego & other internal & external matters. So we have to first solve those problems. Then the unity will surely come. Once again congratulations🎉🎉🎉

[@SongonFirecatholicIndia]

Hi Paul ! Thank you so much for this wondeful explaintion ! Can you send a mail to [e-mail] ! I would like to discuss this further with you and get some clarity

[@ultron3693]

What you said is false. Cardinal Mar Parekkattil spread versus populum through lies and deception. He implemented Versus Populum without the consent of the Holy See. The documents he sent to the Vatican didn't mention the way of orientation but the Malayalam versions which were widely circulated said that the Versus Populum shall be adopted. Mar Parekkattil was the catalyst that created much of the divisions within the Syro Malabar Church with his ideas of Bharatisation(by which, he meant Brahminisation. many people even today associate Brahmin practices to be THE authentic culture of India but in reality, it's just some one the thousands of cultures within India) of the Syro Malabar liturgy. I don't believe Mar Parekkattil was some dark force which was trying to destroy the Church but it's clear that he was misguided.

[@rosemarykuruvilla4166]

You may sound very knowledgeable. but young man before you express your views do a proper study. Unknowingly or knowingly you have distorted a lot of facts. 1) All churches including the Latin had altar facing mass. The change to people facing was a universal change based on the enlightenment gained in the 6 year Vatican two council. 2) The whole syro Malabar church except the individual Powathil welcomed the change. He rebelled. Later he schemed his way by years of underhand lobbing His true disciple Allencherry went further in anointing Caldean supporters as bishops. Thus forming a majority 3) For your information it’s not a few priests who are standing for this. 6 lakh faithful with deep spiritual b insight of what the Mass represents are more strongly standing up for this Mass 4) The last one year we witnessed the most shocking behaviour from the Cardinal and Bishop Andrews Thazath who got ignorant MTNS lobby to desecrate the Divine Eucharist and Holy Altar. If you know When holding up the Eucharist the priest utters - MAY THIS GRANT US THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS MAY IT FREE US FROM OUR SPIRITUAL DEBTS. MAY IT GRANT US ETERNAL LIFE. The last prayer closes this- PRAISE TO THE SACRIFICIAL ALTAR OF THE LORD THE ALTAR WHICH IS THE HOLY OF HOLIES. ANDREWS AND ALLENCHERRY HAD NO QUALMS CAUSING DISHONOUR TO THE MOST HIGH GOD. THEY HAVE NO RIGHT AFTER THIS GREST OFFENCE TO EVEN CONTINUE IN THE CHURCH. WHAT IS CHURCH WITHOUT GOD. THEY SINNED AGAINST THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT THE FIRST. THEY SINNED AGAINST THE SECOND CHRIST GIVEN LOVE YOU NEIGHBOUR AS YOUR SELF. IF ANY ONE NEEDS TO BE EXCOMMUNICATED. ITS THEM. OUR PRIESTS ARE HOLY MEN OF GOD SO BEFORE YOU GIVE YOUR IGNORANT POMPOUS VERDICT. DO A THOROUGH STUDY AND UNDERSTAND WHERE THE TRUTH LIES

[@brjaismathew7213]

I'm a Syro Malabar Seminarian. You said well and short. But it was more meaningful and true. But I think 3:10 is somepart irror because they don't wanna spilt, but want their diocese free from the synodal order.

[@jvCharles]

For two thousand years now, they even don't know whether to turn East or West when praying. Alas!!!!! When you split the Orthodox Church and formed a division called Malankara Reith, weren't they allowed to keep their liturgy the same and use it? So what is the issue? You just hope it turns somewhere.

[@ananthuruthil1887]

East and west is MAYA ,After 6 months your East will be West in relation to the Sun!

[@josephjacob3274]

Mar ivanios asked pope pius directly about keeping tradition as it is. Thus, pope agreed. The syro Malabar church were latinized for over 300 years and the mindset is still there. They still keep saying they are Roman catholic when they are syro Malabar Catholic.

[@ultron3693]

​@@josephjacob3274 True. Even the government is confused about it.

[@josephjacob3274]

@@ultron3693 government should never be involved. Look at the metran kashy and bava kashy? Many clashes and many times police evicted people from churches.

[@vincentfox4929]

Honestly, As someone who is part of the Syro Malabar church, I dont know why it even exists. This church has been so latinised, I dont even see the difference between the masses of Latin rite and Syro Malabar (other than visually and language). Better for it to be assimmilated with the latin rite. The community's origins pre-16 century are also sketchy, with it having ties to the Nestorian Church of the East (same with the Caldean catholic church in Iraq). P.S. Off topic but the only place Im worried about a schism is the church in Germany. The bishops there worryingly know very little of The Catholic Church's own doctrines. The Synod definitely cemented this opinion of mine.

[@josephramban9281]

The prayers in the Syro Malabar liturgy are different bro. Have you not noticed that?😂😂

[@binoyvarghese9867]

we don't use nomenclature of mass ... mass is rite of dismissal in latin rite holy eucharistic celebration . In syro malabar liturgy it's called Holy qurbana ... so different nomenclatures , different traditions , different liturgical language .

[@blessedarethepeacemakers8783]

@@binoyvarghese9867 most people use mass for syro as well.

[@edwinthomas8908]

Nestorian? Whats relation of syromalabar church with nestorianism?

[@ananthuruthil1887]

@@edwinthomas8908 The cross is nestorian pls watch Nestorian Holy Mass by Mar Odish in KZbin where you can see the cross too and singing Emme d Misiha instead fo Emme d Alaha

[@sureshc4527]

I agree, as you said, it is a matter of ego and it is ego clash. otherwise, "where to face during the mass" is a trivial matter. Moreover, this may be a trick to divert our attention from the fraud or crime committed by them in land transactions. Poor believers. I am also a member of Syro Malabar.

[@alanjames2889]

@@josephramban9281 Alancherry is the one who orchestrated the land case. He and his faction is the one creating hatred amongst Christians against other religions to gain political help from the central govt and state govt to help them with his criminal cases. People in Ernakulam aren't protesting against just the bishop or the change in mass, but also his attempt to establish himself and his evil intentions against the lacs of believers and the Holy Father

[@josephramban9281]

@@alanjames2889 Is this a joke?😂😂😂😂😂 The land deals were done with the approval of the curia. Hatred against other religions😂😂😂. Are you a fake i.d sudu or a sudu paid agent?😂😂😂

[@alanjames2889]

@@josephramban9281 1. The Curia which is controlled by Alencherry? 2. Unfortunately, I listed to a catechism class by an Alencherry supporter. Fake conspiracy stories were leveled against people if other faith to bring disharmony. Alencherry and his supporters are trying to control the assets of Ernakulam archdiocese, that is there main issue. Leave us alone.

[@ultron3693]

​@@alanjames2889 "Innocent until proven guilty". Your arguments didn't stand in the court. Why are you willingly spreading misinformation by calling mere accusations "the fact". Ok fine, you don't trust us. But at least trust the Holy See. Even the Apostolic Signatura has given a clean chit to his excellency. But at the end of the day, none of this matters since this decision was taken in 1999.

[@akpteenaantony8190]

Zero become big zer 0

[@joshiandrew]

What you are saying is not correct. Pls update your resources before you speak. Even as a not member of Ekm angamally ,I would like mass facing people. Bishops are playing politics here. All sym faithfull started taking member ship in Latin church because of arrogance of the synod bishops 🙏

[@MelchizedekVision]

@Servant of the holy cross we do thts why more than Seventy thousand people gathered for the protest...

[@MelchizedekVision]

@Servant of the holy cross just look into media reports, even media outlets declared 70000 People Those priets lied , you can understand the personality of the priests lied to you People like you don't even know what is happening when Qurbana celebrated we people of Eranakulam Angamaly can see and worship the holy Eucharist... Important parts of Qurbana is not hidden from Us... But in Adorientem important parts of Qurbana is hidden from Laity... Super majority of parish councils also passed the statement that we only need Versus Populum Qurbana and send it to the Bishops house that's a fact... Laity from the Ernakulam Angamaly in Canada and USA even Britain supports us their family's in India also support us... Because they don't want The Manichean cross replacing the Tabernacle...

[@MelchizedekVision]

@Servant of the holy cross thousands participate because they don't have any choice... If there is a chance they can attend Versus Populum Qurbana then they will opt for it , thts a fact

[@blessedarethepeacemakers8783]

@servantoftheholycross9015 hundreds are moving to Latin from syro malabar regularly in the Delhi and Banglore. I'm not sure about the numbers in Kerala. The latin archbishops try their best to convince them to stay back in their own rites because of pressure from syro-malabar bishops. However, the laity who are adamant in changing rites are welcomed in. Also, this phenomenon was existing long before the front/back alter issue.

[@elvisgeorge9613]

@@blessedarethepeacemakers8783 but was it not in Delhi where the faithful protested against Mar Kuriakose adamant refusal of the obeying the synod? Plus u Said this was an issue even before the whole liturgy wars...but weren't dioceses here celebrating mass facing the people during that time? It's a result of not educating the faithful..

[@neddiesturchio6041]

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