Szeth and Spren Theories ft. Jake Bishop | TWOK 70-72 | Lost in Roshar Ep. 38

[@jakebishop7822]

WHO ACCEPTS THE LIGHTWEAVER OATHS. nerds, please answer my question Thanks for having me on

[@Gl1tch2263]

I have absolutely no idea

[@dookieshoe2905]

I thought either Shard can accept the Oaths, the Stormfather being the closest to Honor which is why Dalinar could do it for Kals 4th ideal. When Eshonai bonds the Reacher Spren she speaks to the Stormfather and later he accepts her first ideal without her speaking the words but when Venli says her second ideal, with the same Reacher Spren, it's Cultivation who accepts her words.

[@vancesmith2045]

It's been mentioned that the Lightweavrrs are an odd bunch. The Cryptics are the only ones that accept Truths instead of Oaths. I figure it was Pattern who accepted the Truth while she was mentally attached to the Cognitive Realm. Then the bond brings him to the Physical Realm and he starts his was-born-today phase

[@Rhedak]

We've seen the Stormfather accept / recet oaths from different orders of radiants.

[@vancesmith2045]

I think it's been mentioned in the epigraphs before that Lightweavers are an odd bunch because of the Cryptics accepting Truths rather than Oaths. I have a theory that the three Bondsmith spren accept oaths from three orders each, total of 9. The 10th being Lightweavers who only answer to their spren. So IMO, Pattern accepted her Truth while she was mentally in the Cognitive realm, then the bond pulled him to the Physical realm and he started his was-born-today process.

[@DylanDiscoverySpren]

Regarding the conversation about a higher spren that accepts the oaths of corresponding radiant orders. There may be a few hints regarding this. Obviously it makes sense for the honorspren to have the stormfather. Using similar logic, could the edgedancers, who bond cultivationspren, have the nightwatcher as the spren that accepts radiant oaths? Perhaps even Cultivation herself? As I am currently re-reading rhythm of war, I did notice something with Venli. When she spoke the second willshaper ideal, a 'distant voice' responded saying 'These words are not accepted.' This was not Timbre as the spren seemed confused by the rejection of the oath. It is unlikely to be the Stormfather as the voice is described as 'distant', something rarely attributed to the Stormfather. Venli has also spoken to the Stormfather before so would likely recognise his voice. This does not happen. Perhaps this has something to do with Venli being a singer? Maybe because she has a voidspren in her gemheart she is closer to Odium therefore hears the Stormfather's voice differently? I doubt this is true as all of Venli's radiant abilities seem to behave the same way as human radiants. Also Venli is notably unaffected by the voidspren's influence on her. To further back this up it doesn't seem like the Stormfather is watching ALL the radiant orders and their spren like he does the Windrunners. If he were he would've informed Dalinar of the planned betrayal of Malata's spren and the other dustbringers. He also would've told Dalinar if there was a radiant bond among the singers with Venli, which he does not. Of course the Stormfather is stubborn and has withheld information in the past so it wouldn't be too suprising if this was the case. it also would make sense on paper for the Stormfather to oversee radiant ideals as he loves oaths and is practically the cognitive shadow of Honor himself. However the evidence just doesn't support this. Especially with the cryptics, it is almost CERTAINLY not the Stormfather overseeing those 'Truths' as you explained. Because of this, I believe I can conclude with relative confidence that there is SOMETHING else that oversees the advancement of radiant ideals for those other than windrunners, and even lightweavers, that is not the stormfather as shown by Venli. But who or what is it that spoke to Venli? I am not sure...

[@ericswearingenmusic9967]

Honestly you should ask that NBA dude onto the show, you never know!

[@marcelle7841]

Speaking about how the Stormfather accepts oaths. I think we’ve heard preservation accept oaths I think Lift’s and Venli I think, we also heard the sibling accept Navani’s oaths too! It’s only because I just reread RoW but the sibling tells Navani that she accepts her words. That’s got to be intentional right?

[@anomalythemillennial304]

The timing for Szeth to end up on a smart day was probably a huge part of The Diagram

[@studynot757]

Warbreaker is my favorite Cosmere novel, so glad to hear there is some other love for it out there

[@Chimaeramentis]

It was explicitly said that Renarin has the strongest healing of all the current Radiants. He was squished by the giant Thunderclast in Thaylen city about a couple dozen times and people remarked on his uniform being tattered to a disturbing degree. That supercharged healing might have something to do with either being a Truthwatcher, or being bonded to a corrupted spren, and maybe even just having an incredibly strong bond with Glys... It will be interesting finding out which of those is the truth.

[@zigdonfreud]

When Jasnah is talking with Shallan about the Spren, her spren Ivory is probably talked with her, that's why her sentence is jumbled. Ivory probably said to her that no other Inkspren will bond humans, and that is why she says "that make sense"

[@jakebishop7822]

Ah, yes! This is totally the answer!

[@sowercookie]

Not only is Shallan further along in her oaths than Kaladin, she's bonded to two spren, so I'm assuming that's why. And in general she's more reckless with herself because of her identity issues (And Kaladin would be more careful cause he's aware of the anatomy 🤷‍♀️)

[@kurzka16]

Shallan can't be an elsecaller because of ink Spren politics. They were hesitant to send any at all

[@althechicken9597]

I have so far refused to read Oathbringer a second time since 2019/2020 when i first read it. The book shook me to my core and i knew i needed to not over-reread it, so i could preserve its impact. I think im going to do a full reread to get ready for Knights of Wind and Truth, and im so excited.

[@ericswearingenmusic9967]

Same here. I am doing a reread now and am up to Oathbringer and it’s such a banger

[@dookieshoe2905]

That's a fear of mine as well. Those sanderlanches are so impactful and I don't want to lose that either. So far I just finished my third series reread and they were just as good.

[@dylanbeazer2506]

So with using transformation, I don’t think you physically go in there initially. We see ardents soulcast, but they stay in the physical world. Jasnah used her other surge, transportation to go there after the boat attack. Ym the cobbler was a Truthwatcher. I don’t think everyone got together and decided just one. Maybe as individual spren types they did, but they definitely didn’t meet up for a huge meeting. And we can see that there were multiple mistspren active at/near the same time. For the dawnsingers to Ashyn, I don’t know. Ishar had some of his powers before coming to Roshar, so it gets a little wonky. But originally surgebinders didn’t have checks on their powers, but spren only began giving powers after the Heralds were created.

[@dr.josephramirezd.c.4267]

Perhaps Cultivation is the one that coordinates the return of the radiants in response to knowing Odium is bringing the Everstorm to return the fused. She is responsible for Dalinar being able to reject Odium in oath bringer and gives Lift life light....it would be like her to coordinate one willing spren of each order in addition to directing them to the perfect candidates. She also knows the spren will lose their memory crossing over so it gives her time to continue to work behind the scenes.

[@CodyTaylor115]

I like that idea

[@eileensaveall1199]

You guys! Thanks!

[@adamborst]

There's no basis for this but my personal theory has been 1) that Ashyn surgebinding was without spren, 2) that either Odium or Cultivation had that as "their" planet, and 3) that the Shard made a mistake in not limiting the use of surgebinding and caused the destruction of the planet's ecosystem/biosphere since the planet still exists just isn't assumed to be habitable or if it is, it's not very nice. I don't know how spren/Nahel bonds limit the magic, but I assume Honor locked it down to prevent Roshar getting fubar.

[@davidwilson6577]

Don't we know already that it was Odium's, and that Honor and Cultivation were already on Roshar when Ashyn was destroyed, which is why humans are considered 'voidbringers' that brought their god, which supplanted the singers' originals?

[@adamborst]

That makes sense, I probably forgot some of the lore to be honest. So do we think that the surgebinding on Ashyn would have been equivalent or similar to Fused voidbinding? I'll still be on board that Odium screwed up and likely gave the people too much power and it caused havoc. Did we get a definitive answer or lore portion as to how/why Odium and Honor essentially swapped constituent populations?

[@davidwilson6577]

@@adamborst I can't remember exactly. I do know that Odium came with the humans from Ashyn, the surges destroyed Ashyn, and Honor did something to the surges to stop that from happening again on Roshar. Also, Cultivation was there, definitely having way more of a hand in everything than she's been given credit for. The surges on Ashyn could have been more like the contemporary Fused stuff, but they don't seem very world-endy so far so I don't know. I'm thinking honor fundamentally changed the rules of surgebinding for his, Odium's and cultivation's investiture, and every other shard, and all combinations, and no-one's been capable of or interested in changing it back, even though he's dead. Unless we get a flashback we probably won't know what surgebinding was like on Ashyn. Perhaps Venli talks to a rock again, the implication I got from that last one in RoW was that she was seeing Listener surgebinders before humans arrived. Maybe she'll see the 'first desolation', after humans arrive and before Honor does something about it. But the timeline there isn't clear, or I can't remember it.

[@MrGrizzly7392]

As much as I would love for the words to be quantified in giving you more access per stage, I feel like Lopen gives us a hint that it's more about the intent with his first oath being accepted at the end of Oathbringer. Even he was mad that his banger moment (even if it's the standard first oath) was stolen from him by the Stormfather. I mean, pancakes would hurt haha

[@seanfoley5447]

Doesn’t venli “check shadesmer” without entering every so often to make sure there’s not an evil spren and watching them?

[@Rhedak]

I'm re-reading Way of Kings right now, I guess it is my 4th time. I want to finish re-reading all of the stormlight archive before Stormlight 5 is out.

[@passdoutcouchpotatos]

I think its HIGHLY unlikely the Dawn Singers came to Ashyn. Surgebinding AND DAWNSHARDS destroyed the human homeworld. Its also entirely possible that Humans had surges prior to coming to roshar, the surges are just a form of magic in the setting, and both Odium and Honor seem to be capable of manifesting investiture this way. What is different is HOW one uses surges. The Singers for example had to go out into storms and luck out, where humans started becoming radiants shortly after the Oathpact was forged. Also, its likely that humans simply used Voidlight back on their homeworld to manifest surges.

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

Let me throw in a vote for a chapter by chapter exploration of Warbreaker! Super fun!

[@MajorReynolds92]

Bondsmiths and Windrunners have had their Words accepted by the Stormfather, additionally, it appears Bondsmiths can also accept Words for other orders as demonstrated by Dalinar accepting Kaladin's 4th Oath in RoW. Cultivation accepted Venli's Words also in RoW, though as far as i can tell we don't get to see who accepts them in OB; interestingly, when Eshonai spoke the Words (in her heart), despite being the same species, joining the same order, and even bonding the exact same spren, it was instead the Stormfather who accepted her Words. Makes me wonder, if one "Accepter" doesn't accept a person's Words, can the other disagree and accept them themselves? As far as i know we haven't seen who accepted Rlain or Renarin's Words. In the case of Lightweavers and Shallan, it seems to me that the one accepting her Words, or in this case her Truths, is simply the spren himself, Pattern. In OB epilogue, Hoid doesn't seem to be offering his Truths to anyone but that specific spren he's rescuing.

[@davidwilson6577]

Probably any sufficiently invested entity can accept an oath.

[@CodyTaylor115]

I figured the strength of a truth comes from how much the lightweaver lies to themselves about how much they avoid acknowledging it. That's why a plain simple truth like sun rises isn't strong enough for an oath.

[@CodyTaylor115]

I thought Jasnah traveled to shademare because that one of her surges to fully transport between realms everyone else just looks into shadesmare when they connect to their surge bindings

[@minerman60101]

I commented this a couple videos ago but late so I'll reiterate: you should link the playlist in the description, above the timestamps. Edit: I wonder if Shallan's final truth is "I caused the new desolation by killing my mother (who was a herald)". Admitting to causing the apocalypse is an insane truth, even more than the already insane truths of killing both of your parents and your spren.

[@halffreck4444]

the cobbler's spren was a truthwatcher spren

[@tharkius]

The reference you should actually have looked up is a certain character's oath being accepted in ROW (not going to specify in youtube comments for spoiler reasons)

[@martinrocamora6605]

Is that a fish tank in the background?

[@mcspazatron240]

The noise was driving me so crazy I went from Spotify to KZbin to see if I was the only one

[@Rhedak]

I still don't get why the Shin gave Szeth the Honorblade... you implied that killing people is part of the punishment but I really don't get it.

[@ciaranirvine]

The Szeth screams - maybe because he's killing people with an Honorblade, which is different from a normal Shardblade?

[@willbfriend7187]

Shallan steals Kaladin's boots haha

[@lord_kelsier4007]

Over Szeth maybe its a specifiet thing because he is a Shin and al Shin daont walk over Stone maybe all of them hear the screems of the dead or the one they killed.

[@eileensaveall1199]

Didn't Lyft get hers from cultvation?

[@BartasRapowanie]

All I know is that we are so fucked in book 5 💀 whatever the foreshadowing foreshadows it ain’t looking pretty

[@MajorReynolds92]

people gonna die 😢

[@mndrew1]

Likely no one other than the lord ruler has a higher body count than Dalinar. He'd be top 5 not counting the city he locked and burned.

[@seanfoley5447]

Also, Jake, I’ve always read that as the zygote invasion, and now I feel silly…

[@jakebishop7822]

That's ok, I thought it was Zygon Invasion part 1, and Zygon Invasion part 2 for some reason. Randomly learned a year ago that I completely made that up and part 2 is The Zygon Inversion. That 2 parter is fantastic though

[@donringo1353]

Is Szeth hearing the rhythms of roshar?

[@connorslocum9327]

👑KINGS👑

[@caleb6179]

Who would Robert Downey jr play in a Sanderson show or movie? I’m feeling steelheart (iron man/ steelheart huh huh). But want to see what y’all think.

[@itstrbo]

He could play Wit

[@danl455]

New jimmy is getting a bit cocky.

[@aj2563]

Jake > Jimmy I fear…

[@hybiscusify]

Guys, you’re having way too much fun, talking over each other! It’s bit hard to follow. (Sorry)🇨🇦🇧🇧

[@Acamas1]

SU-seb-RON is how it is pronounced.

[@Topples7]

"The trick with pronunciation guides is that, personally, I am kind of a believer in that I write a script where you are the director. You get the script I've provided, and then as you read the story, you are creating the actual final detail of how everything looks and sounds and stuff. And so, in your head, your version of the character names are canon to you, and there is no right pronunciation, really."

[@alexlaggis742]

@jakebishop7822 I got the Who reference! Was so unexpected I had to replay. Great episode and cameo

[@jakebishop7822]

Let's go!