Let’s Make FAILED Investigation Checks More Fun! [Ep. 21]

[@RodBatten]

If there's something to be discovered by investigation in an OSR game I give the clues/information to the players who are looking for it, no roll required. It encourages the players to explore and ask questions, plus there's no chance to fail a roll because there's no roll. The players do have to describe what they're doing, though. Sometimes they will find clues that I invent just because they are looking for them. :D Love the Bondo analogy, lol.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Good technique for sure! And bondo is the best lol. I need life bondo 😂

[@merkron2680]

This is the way !

[@Nerobyrne]

I like to combine the two by being more forgiving on DCs if they can describe it well.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I like the idea of rewarding good role play too!

[@jtjames79]

I only have the players roll for perception, if there is a consequence to failure. They still get the information, but it causes a complication. From my experience, never be stingy with clues. A high roll might get you a bonus like ruling out a red herring. /Random thoughts

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah interesting about ruling out a red herring, that’s a good one.

[@Nolinquisitor]

My favorite solution to the investigation problem, really a sensory input problem, is the GM secret roll. The player cannot know whether the character possibly missed a clue if it can’t see the roll. Plus, the player can earn bonuses or penalties on the roll or if the described method of its investigation is helpful or not.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Oh, so you roll the check instead of the player? Interesting. Lol I feel like the player being told they found nothing always makes em feel like they missed something (even when there really was nothing to find 😂)

[@Nolinquisitor]

@@tabletopalchemy I think of it this way: the GM is generally the sole provider of sensory input already without breaking immersion: « You see a giant castle in ruins peaking out of the forest. » The hidden roll give you advantage on that sweet GM poker face and the luxury to truly hide what is unseen.

[@chuckfrench2365]

@@Nolinquisitor I use a similar method, and for the same reasons. We both roll, me for their success, them for the confidence that they have in the effectiveness of their search. Notice: long post ahead. Examples: 1. We both roll to indicate success = they find the secret, if there is one. If there is nothing to find, they are confident that they didn't miss anything. 2. We both roll to indicate failure = they don't find the secret, if there is one. If there is one, they might have a nagging doubt about the effectiveness of their search, overwhelmed by the sheer number of possible places to search, or there might be a gremlin of the 'Glasses and Keys' sort at work, and the secret is hiding in plain sight. 3. They roll a success and I roll a failure = They don't find the secret if there is one, and they're pretty sure that they did a good job of searching. 4. They roll a failure and I roll a success = They find the (or a) secret, and I get to inject a little humor. For instance, they could literally trip over it, an escaping Goblin throws it at them or they sit on it. Either way, they discover it right at the start of their search thus they should have little confidence in the thoroughness of their search. I like the list idea, that's a new one to me. Thanks for that!

[@tabletopalchemy]

I gotcha, valid point.

[@Nolinquisitor]

@@chuckfrench2365 This is interesting! It is extra steps though, but interesting.

[@bradcraig6676]

I like that mechanic enhancement. We usually role play some rationale for a very low roll on a check, or the DM imposes one. Sometimes a series of failed checks leads to more adventure than succeeding. I think of Gandalf trying to open the doors to Moria; a number of failed checks before success, and consequently a battle with a tentacled horror.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah yes, this is a great example of how to create “more bang for the buck” so to speak lol.

[@shawnstricklin976]

An idea I had put into motion is the 'character flash back' moment - Where if they succeed super well on the die check is to give them info that is remembered from their characters past... In one case; the party came upon a mountain village that was over ran with with an overwhelming force of Orcs with lots of sentries and no obvious way to get in without being spotted. Certac, (a Dwarven Fighter) rolled really well on a search check; so instead of saying his keen Dwarven eyes spots a secret pass, I mention how he remembers a conversation with his cousins, when they were in the area doing a job about 120 years back and how they mentioned they had used a dangerous cliff-side pass while the main road into the area where the town was being built. The entrance was walled off and about a quarter-mile back down the road, with a little excavation, it should get them close to where the inn now stands...

[@tabletopalchemy]

That’s an excellent idea! I’m gonna use that at some point for sure 🍻

[@dirtywhitellama]

Having a more granular approach than pass/fail is definitely helpful. Making the checks as a DM behind the screen so they don't know their roll can also be a tactic, especially in a dungeon or someplace like that. There's also the burning wheel approach, where a "failed" roll could be - they succeeded on what they were trying, but not in the way they wanted, or with a complication. Maybe they get discovered by the guards as they find what they're looking for, instead of having leisure to search, for example.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Yeah I like this idea of “failed” rolls resulting in “wrenches in the worx” 🤙

[@MarcMajcher]

"All mechanics break immersion" YES THANK YOU! Finally someone is brave enough to say it out loud. :D

[@tabletopalchemy]

😂 🍻

[@emmettfitz-hume9408]

I love this idea! The meta-game aspect you mention can ruin a mystery. This is a great way to obscure whether they have missed an important clue or not without telling them that.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Agreed! I hope it works for ya lol.

[@liberty7291]

For investigations, following tracks, etc. I often use the check as a measure of how long it takes them to achieve the goal. For example, to find the specific book in the library, investigation check < 5 2d4+2 hours, < 10 2d4 hours, < 15 1d8 hours, < 20 1d6 hours, 20+ 1d4 hours. Or use fixed/average times, but the dice gives the players a sense of involvement. It may be minutes or 10s of minutes instead of hours depending on the task, like finding the passage in the book. The check could also affect the quality of the information, etc. with an ABL. If there are multiple paths to the goal and the story is not hinging on this investigation, the lower checks do fail, and it takes that amount of time for the PCs to realize/admit failure and for the players to move on to the next avenue. There should be consequences to the duration too, such as random encounter checks every hour, or not so random like rivals or guards show up 4 hours in.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Very good stuff here! I like it 🍻

[@googs197]

I really do like this idea. I have also made a habit of having my players think they found something on a low roll that turns out to be a figment of their imagination. But this is a really great idea.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah, on the surface finding something that turns out to be a figment of one’s imagination sounds a little frustrating for players but I can think of a few situations that might be really perfect for!

[@beezany]

Aha, that's a great way to get more out of investigation! Another thing I like to do around this type of "gate" check: Make failure introduce complications rather than blocking on an obstacle. For investigation, failure can mean that you take too much time, or you make too much of a mess. Those complications might have consequences later on, or they might just make the players worry. Speaking of worried players, I also sometimes ask for perception or investigation checks when there's nothing serious going on. It helps to break up the connections between rolling dice and significant events, which defuses some kinds of metagaming.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Nice, I like the idea of adding some consequences to failed checks for sure!

[@grimmtales503]

You can do this for everything. In combat you might not do 1d8+mods but you can still do lots of stuff in the Near Miss area. Or possibly throw Intimidation on an angry roll of 2. And on 'fumble' you don't have to kill a friend, instead you could do something embarrassing or frustrating ('bite your tongue' or 'poop yer pants' or 'slip and mis-step' or 'notice and trigger a trap'). Like the blurbs at the end. You are successful, but you may want to re-define your terms?

[@tabletopalchemy]

Good ideas! Lol yeah I’m an expert at “redefining terms” 🏴‍☠️

[@henribehrendt9611]

I tend to make Investigation checks about time spend to find something. If you roll high you find it fast, but if you roll low it might take you minutes or even hours to find the information you are looking for. Then i introduce challenges at certain time incriments. Like they hear footsteps coming towards the room or magical traps that need to be dispelled. I always stress that they can try to find more information if they spend more time, but its always risky!

[@tabletopalchemy]

This is a great technique, always interesting to add more tension in the decision making! 🍻

[@Zaziggi]

Extra thumbs up just for including the bloopers :p

[@monohymn]

Giving them away like that? That coulda been its own video! Madman!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Dude, I could legitimately drop 10 minutes of bloopers every week 😂

[@Zaziggi]

@@tabletopalchemy Time for a bloopers and behind the scenes channel :p

[@tabletopalchemy]

Oh yeah there’s by far more bloopers than actual content lol. I briefly consisted making weekly shorts that are just blooper reels lol but they’d all just be me sitting in the same spot cursing vehemently 🤣

[@robot7759]

Dude, I hate to admit it, but you're doing it absolutely correct. It shouldn't be about hit or miss, there should be a lot of detail.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Well cheers then lol! 🍻

[@alegro2334]

Some info I could share from my last campaign: Especially if someone has very high investigation, they will always want to roll and investigate everything on every scene all the time. I just rolled with it and whenever they rolled REALLY well, like 27 or so (5th Edition DND btw.), I would just think of something that is maybe in another room or not even in this particular house/dungeon and have them find this there. Or maybe they find a little piece of ripped cloth from some clothes of someone who has been here, and I would describe the colour and when they encountered the person the next time, I would make sure to very carefully describe their clothing so the players would get the hint. Also (I think this is the most important actually) I left big reveals that are story relevant mostly to other players to find (with very low DCs like 5 or so), just so the high Inv. player does not get to investigate and find out everything about the plot, because I feel like then the party is too dependant on one player and might feel like it's not worth investigating on their own.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I love this. Great ideas and you sound like a great DM to play with! 🍻

[@grahamward7]

Similar to your method, I always have information they learn automatically, something they learn through a specific interaction like running their hands over a surface or picking something up, and finally what happens when they succeed on a roll or commit a resource. When I don’t know what it will be in advance, I improvise so that there’s always a tiered set of clues/results.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Excellent! Like-minds lol 🍻

[@babyatemydingo574]

This is a great idea. This was also my first video from this channel and I gotta say I really liked the outtakes at the end lol

[@tabletopalchemy]

Right on lol. Outtakes only it onto the final video, but not for lack of having them … lol.

[@babyatemydingo574]

@@tabletopalchemy I feel it lol the outtakes from my voice work would simultaneously make people throw me in a padded cell while blushing 😂

[@tabletopalchemy]

🤣🏴‍☠️🍻

[@yavinstudios3528]

A similar/additional method to ABL is a roll table of flavor, fluff and foreshadowing you can drop anywhere in the session to help set the tone. Not your main clues. Some small forensic detail that indicates a particular person/creature was present [skin, bone, hair, blood] or how the enemies actions have altered the environment, for example.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Oh good one! A table of foreshadowing, that’s very cool. I’m going to have to build one of those 🍻

[@JackOatway]

Love this idea! I've always thought the point of rolls is to generate excitement, not kill the mood or slow things down. Degrees of success or 'bulleted lists' as you put it can begin at Investigation or Perception, but why stop there? the DMG (or basic rules I can't fully remember) describes this exact idea for charisma checks depending on NPC relationship to the party, but it could even work for attack rolls or saving throws in my humble opinion.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I agree, sky’s the limit. Def more to explore with the overall concept! 🍻

[@Drudenfusz]

Personally, I don't roll for perception or investigation, I provide details that lie within the interests and background of a character. Thus my lists of clues are always specific to the characters. I even make sure that I mention the most interesting thing that might actually lead to a different place in the adventure last, so that it easy to pick that up, since some players will have already forgotten the first point by the time they hear the last.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Excellent technique!

[@maritatripet7480]

I love your sense of humour! Also, a great practical tip that I will be passing onto my GMs.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome and awesome lol 🍻

[@EpherosAldor]

Incoming long post!! I know you said this video isn't about perception vs investigation, but to help delineate these two skills successfully ( 😛) this is how I parse them. Perception is having a general awareness of information being received by your senses passively, or by focusing on detecting something specifically using those senses. So, passive perception is just an overall attention to details, like always being aware of smells, sounds, feelings in the air around you (breezy, hot, cold, humid, etc.), and visually with what stands out different from the environment or things that are happening. It is also based on the character's general, or even specialized knowledge or experience. A cleric or warlock may notice the smell of burnt sage in the air meaning a cleansing ritual had recently happened, a fighter might not know that and may get just a noticeable smell of a spice or herb or something (having a much higher DC because it's specialized knowledge). Think about it this way, if you're an adventurer exploring a dungeon, and you have a good chunk of experience doing this kind of thing, then you could enter a passage and passively notice the smell of a goblin dung in the air. You aren't looking for it but in your experience and since you are in a state of high alert in an unknown, dangerous place, that sensory input would clue you in to some particular danger. That would be perception, "You enter the cramped passage and feel the air moving gently passed you into the woods behind you, you notice the smell of goblin dung that seems pervasive but not too strong". A player might say then, "I stop and try to focus on hearing the spaces beyond, do I hear the sounds of goblins or creatures moving about, doing things, talking/arguing, or anything to indicate that there might be company just ahead?". That would trigger an active perception as they are trying to use their senses without any other means to learn something. Now, the player may state, 'I'm going to move carefully forward in the next room and look around the corners and behind any debris to see if there is goblin dung in areas I know goblins would do their business", that would be investigation since they are actively using their knowledge of goblins and identifying the places where the goblins would do things like go to the bathroom. The other thing of note is that the DC may change depending on the input being perceived and the person receiving the input, if no one in the party has encountered a gelatinous cube before then they would not have the experience and sensory knowledge of what it smells like, or what it sounds like oozing through the passage. The DC would be higher to notice it through perception. It would be a high DC to spot it using investigation if the party has never learned about gelatinous cubes either. If one party member read a book about them then they could state, "I'm looking for any marks on the walls to see if there is corrosion from the acidic digestive juices of an ooze, I read about them before in some bestiary and those signs were mentioned." The DC might drop a little and could be solved using either an investigation or survival tracking skill. If no character has experience or knowledge of something, such as sensory information about a thing, or identifying the aspects of a religious ritual, like specialized tools or drawings, then no matter how good a passive perception or investigation, or an investigation for that matter, would yield automatic results. This would be great for the ABL you talked about, where they could pick up little bits of information that could help the players (not the characters) get to more solid conclusions. That ABL idea is good, I usually put down a few things but not actually tagged it with DC targets. Thanks!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome explanation, thank you! Puts a lot of things in perspective too. 🍻

[@EpherosAldor]

@@tabletopalchemy This can also be done with magic too. Just conceptualize what sensing magic or fluctuations in the weave would feel like, or how investigating traces of the arcane after an incident would manifest. Great content, thanks for sharing!!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Yeah that’s a great idea re residual magic!

[@caerban]

I played a game called Chill back in the '90s. Skill checks were based on a sliding d100 roll with levels of success so bullet pointed lists became a part of all my games. It had a lot of investigation checks so I used to reward specificity as well. For example I'd use the basic list for, "I search the library for books on monsters." A request for "Books on Greek monsters" because they picked up an earlier clue would say drop the DC levels by one tier. "Greek monsters associated with Athens" because they picked up on another clue dropped it two tiers etc. I tried to avoid punishing by failure unless it drove the story in a fun direction. It also lead to people aiming a combat round because I'd drop the shot DC. It was a fun system, probably my all time favourite, and it lead to me being better in other systems because it made you think more widely about things and situations.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah very interesting. Yep I can see the concept being quite useful!

[@sutekh233]

I personally found Chill to be a problematic kind of system TBH. The concept of it I found very good however with SAVE and it's history etc being a great "supporting member" and springboard to give the PC's reasons to go looking into the dark corners of the world. If you are ever able to find it, look into James Bond by Victory games. It was another sliding scale D100 system which I found a far easier system to work within than the Chill one, and being a spy game, investigation was high on the list of priorities of the system.

[@shadwkeepr9107]

Definitely adding this into my DM toolkit. Thanks!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Totally! 🍻

[@pyrenyang2929]

I think ABL sounds cool^^ And great idea to do it this way. it is always strange if you just find nothing, like there is a vpoid in the drawer. A lower point could be a view coins or something to reward searching in the first place.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Agreed! 🍻

[@ionminiatures]

Participating in a D&D game you’re DMing would be hella fun! I’ve DM’d a few games a few years ago, but not really participated as a player for a while. I think it would be a good time.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Bold assumption but I’ll take it lol. I’m still pretty new to it and don’t get to play/practice as much as I’d like but I definitely enjoy the DM thing. I’m hesitant to try virtual play but maybe one day, you never know!

[@mikibabic8187]

Thank you! I plan to use this idea from now on

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome, good luck with it!

[@timothylamont845]

I just found your channel, and Im glad I did. Some great stuff! On this particular video, I take a very similar, but smaller scale approach. I set the DC level, then make notes along the lines of: Fail by more than 5 Fail within 5 Succeed by less than 5 Succeed by more than 5 But then I do exactly what you do here..... list out what they discover. Now Im off to watch more of your content LOL You have a new subscriber! Thank you!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome, thanks! Yep, it sounds like we’re doing the exact same thing lol with different nomenclature for the die results! Great minds, as they say🍻

[@jordanbeard6687]

To avoid meta gaming, I do investigation rolls and perception rolls for the players. "Give me your investigation bonus, okay . . . . you find . . . ." They never know if they rolled well or not, then if there is a critical item to find, it's just in the list regardless of their roll.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I’m finding out quite a few GMs do this sort of thing and I had no idea (re the secret rolls) lol. Personally I always like when players get to roll, but I can see where that exacerbates my issue ha!

[@jordanbeard6687]

@@tabletopalchemy In general I agree with you, the players rolling is a major aspect, it feels like they are in charge of success or failure even though a roll of the dice should be truly random chance. But I just found the Perception and Investigation rolls were too prone to breaking the immersion. Most players cannot play ignorance very well. They will always know that they don't know.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Extremely valid point. Yeah I’ll have to try the secret roll technique just to see what it’s like.

[@Baulderstone1]

I'm a fan of bullet lists for information checks, and as you say, prepping them when you can gets you in the mindset to improvise them when you need to. Another trick I've encountered is to always give the players information, but a failed roll means there is some hitch attached. The find the secret door, but they damaged the opening mechanism in searching for it. They now need to repair it or noisily brute force their way through the door. Or maybe they fall a check to get information from an NPC. The NPC is willing to tell them, but they want 50 gp first. I use both techniques depending on which one best suits the situation. And I have to agree that as a player, rolling investigation checks and getting nothing does take me out of the game. It creates a sensation of frustration my oblivious character doesn't feel, so it's a barrier to being in character. And to look at it more simply, being frustrated just isn't fun. It's one thing when you miss a sword swing. You can wait until next round in combat, but you generally only get one shot at an Investigation check.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Great idea about the low roll snags, I dig that! 🍻

[@tinaprice4948]

I love the list, my players investigate every room, corridor and so forth i would have to be choosey

[@tabletopalchemy]

Pesky players always looking for what isn’t there lol.

[@jonathanimber7159]

I have started doing this when my players want to loot a body. I have tiers of what goodies they find based on how high they roll so they always end up with a little something even if it is a useless trinket. Because an imaginative player can always find a use for that old parchment with a list supplies or a pocket full of rusted nails.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah very cool, I haven’t done that for rolling a body but I will now lol

[@ozludo]

My most recent D&D games have been 3.5 and Basic Fantasy. I reward 20s with opportunities - maybe they spot loot in addition to the hidden thing. It would also make sense to reward crits in OSR games, where $ = XP. This more layered approach has echoes of Gumshoe (cool) while keeping randomness. Nice.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah yes. I haven’t played OSR/E yet so I’m not super familiar with those types of rulesets, but I plan to give ‘em a good perusal.

[@sutekh233]

A device I used very often in investigation heavy games such as Call of Cthulhu, Masque of the red death (1920's Ravenloft), James Bond etc was to ask the players, before the game starts, to roll X amount of D what-evers and I would note them down on some paper without saying exactly what they were for. During the course of the game, I would then randomly take a number from this pre-generated pool of results and apply that as the players roll when they use perception/investigation kinds of abilities. That way, I am never removing player agency by not letting them roll. They did roll, I just didn't tell them what they were rolling for when I asked them to do it, 2 hours ago. You can use the same technique for saving throws in games that use them as well. Another habit I got into very early on in my GM time was just rolling dice randomly and at least -look- like I was paying attention to the numbers, which is just another tool in adding to the poker face concept. Misdirection is the key here, same as it is in poker.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Oh this is an interesting idea for banking roll results. I could see using this for a number of different things

[@sutekh233]

@@tabletopalchemy It's got the advantage of randomness without breaking immersion and sending up the "there must be something here because the GM asked me to roll" red flag. I found the BEST use of it was in passive rolls as opposed to active rolls for one very important reason, a GM does not REQUEST the search check, the PLAYER does, the result is entirely in their hands, as is what they do with it. If they are paranoid that they have missed something, then sure, allow something like the "take 10/20" rule, or White wolf's "marginal success" when you can succeed at anything so long as your stat+skill level equals the target number without rolling, but it is the most basic form of success (you found the secret door, but you missed the trap attached). Of course, if they are paranoid, they are probably playing the wrong game as they are just commie mutant traitors............

[@tabletopalchemy]

😂 I screencapped the last line just to send to my buddy

[@sutekh233]

@@tabletopalchemy Does he have clearance? Thats Ultra violet levels of information........

[@tabletopalchemy]

Lol I can’t wait to see what happens if he DOESN’T have clearance … 😈

[@Lorkynn]

This pretty much is how I prep for homebrew games when I run them. I run with a similar mindset with Fumbles (nat 1s) I want them to feel as important to the scene as a nat 20 would. It's something I picked up when playing PbtA games. They have varying levels of success: Yes-and, Yes-but, No-but, and No-and.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Oh I like those series of yes/no formulas, very handy! 🍻

[@fauxpukka]

I try to avoid investigation checks, at least for important clues. In our game we have a holdover version of ‘taking a 10 and taking a 20’. By taking extra time the players have a guaranteed minimum dice score for the check. This is kind of important when a scenario hinges on a specific clue that advances the plot. Imagine if Bilbo had failed his perception check and just stepped over the tiny ring when he was traveling under the mountain

[@tabletopalchemy]

Lol yeah missing the plot device is bad. I do mention it’s not a great idea to put necessary details behind a die roll 🤓

[@mooxim]

I'm gonna get Chat-GPT to come up with a few ABLs for my next game. Prompt (if you want to try it): Generate a tiered list of details in [the environment] that the player character notices when they investigate their surroundings. Each detail should be accompanied by the difficulty class (DC) that the player needs to beat on their die roll. e.g. The carpets are thick, plush and imported (2) There's a faint smell of candle smoke (7) One window is half open (10) The heavy desk is very neat and tidy, with stacks of organised paper, a writing quill, an ink pot placed just so, but the bowl of sand has been tipped over (12) One book, in the darkest corner, sticks out as if it's about to fall off the shelf (15)

[@tabletopalchemy]

Yeah this sounds like a great use case for the ai! 🍻

[@kingzut]

one thing you can do is on a "failed" roll have them find something they wernt looking for. you can also have them bump into a clue to use for searching. like as they are searching a dest they bump a vase off. they either catch it or it smashes. if they catch it they hear something rattling arounds inside. looking they find a small crest key. if it smashes they can find the crest key but also there is the loud noise. maybe looking at the crest key lets them notice the indented insignia on the desk. placing it in and pressing they hear a click that releases a hidden drawer under the deck. inside they find some documents and letters that were hidden away. so they didnt find what they might have been looking for but they found something new

[@tabletopalchemy]

Yeah! Great ideas to run with 🍻

[@thedungeonbuilder]

wow really great advice! i'll be sure to use it. thanks for sharing 🙌

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome! 🍻

[@artistpoet5253]

I don't use them. If the player says their character is passively scanning the area for oddities I'll just let them know if they see any. If they're actively searching, I ask them for how long and for what specifically; I'll tell them what they find if anything at all. I do take into account their character's score relating to these activities. So if one character is, on paper, super alert and notices everything and another is, well, as oblivious as a love struck youth on a warm spring day, I'll slip the player with the more attentive character a little note on what they notice and leave it to them to share.

[@tabletopalchemy]

This is very efficient way to run situations like this, very cool. I always just like letting players roll but it does make it more complicated lol.

[@filiformis]

Any sort of "information" skills, I'll usually roll from behind the GM screen, which is what GURPS recommends in its books. So if a player has danger sense, I'll roll when they're in danger (or when they're not, just to keep them on edge). If they succeed, I'll give them a warning. If they fail, well... that's why they're wearing body armor. But I really like the bulleted lists idea. Gives me an idea for something to try out the next time I run a crime scene investigation. These are always hard because the fun part is never rolling to know what clues you can see, but putting the clues together into something that helps you solve the case. So I can have some easy to find clues that lead to bigger, more important, juicier, harder to find clues. Eventually there's the big clue at the top of the chain that takes them to the next scene in the investigation. They roll once to determine where on the chain they start. After that, when they tell me they look somewhere specific that has a clue, they automatically find it without a roll. Even if they roll poorly they're still on the trail to solve the case, but having a high skill feels more like being a super-detective who can enter a crime scene and immediately locate the most important details, while a low or average skill means following the chain of clues like a regular detective.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Right on, I like this term of a “clue chain” that’s pretty inspiring right there!

[@scottlewis3506]

I always use a house rule for this. A list yes, but I roll a die and explain that the roll they make may be inverted, so a low roll may be a pass. It doesn’t really matter whether I am actually doing that or just winging it. The idea is, they don’t know if the 20 is a 1 or a 1 is a 20. So they can’t meta game the roll. I always tell them they found something, but what they find may be just dressing. The reason I don’t just make all the rolls behind the screen for them is because rolling the dice is part of player agency. However, it is not always beneficial to the game for them to know what is a good roll and what is not.

[@tabletopalchemy]

That last bit is pretty keen. I am guilty of having players do as many rolls as possible because I like the fun of rolls but you make a very valid point!

[@direden]

That out take! 😂 Been there done that

[@tabletopalchemy]

🤣

[@dougsundseth6904]

If it's a truly optional thing (unnecessary but nice treasure, for instance), on a blown roll I'll just say "You don't find anything." I say exactly the same thing if there's nothing there. If it's the kind of thing that a reasonable search would find, then I wouldn't call for a roll. "When you search the gunsel, you find the pistol in his waist holster." Now if he also has a ceramic knife strapped to his forearm, a holdout pistol in an ankle holster, and a trick shoe with a blade in the toe as well, you won't find all of those without a roll. If it's important that the thing be found, the result of the roll is used to determine a consequence. On a high roll, "You see what looks like a hidden catch underneath the drawer in the desk." On a medium roll, "You think the drawer is shorter than it should be, but you don't see any way to get into that space." On a low roll, "You feel under the front of the drawer, and as you hear the click of a hidden catch opening, you hear an alarm. Roll for initiative." or "As you're investigating the desk, you feel a sharp pain in your finger. Make a Fortitude save." or "A hidden panel opens and a glass vial falls out. Make a Reflex save to catch it before it hits the stone floor." or whatever. Alternatively, in a social situation (using your Diplomacy or Streetwise or whatever to find information), I will generally give the characters enough information to continue forward regardless of the roll, but on a low roll, perhaps they were obvious enough that their investigations were brought to the attention of the adversary. Or maybe somebody completely unrelated to their current problem thinks that _they're_ the target of the investigation and they get a new complication to deal with. Or they drink a bit much while "investigating" and they get accosted by muggers in a dark alley with a penalty for being drunk/drugged.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Definitely some good ideas here! I never gate necessary info behind a die roll but now I can see reasons why doing so can be a good idea!

[@eventingirl001]

Maybe with the low level investigation checks (nat 1s or otherwise low rolls) maybe you have the particulars player notice a book about something they are interested in (a hobby or a pet project) that can provide insight into the particular lord whose castle they are in or maybe they are really focused on that carpet and see the crest or a particular design that is obvious (could lead to a future investigation check). If the rogue fails to pick a lock, maybe they notice a design or flourish and realize that the lock was made by a particularly well known lock maker/door maker (so famous that all rogues who see this particular brand turn tail). But all of these investigation checks could lead to future checks or clues about something. That plush carpet with the obvious crest is actually upside down, why would a wealthy lord who doesn’t have to lift a finger for anything have a cookbook that’s well worn? The lock/door maker is terrible at making hinges or that particular flourish/design is a reproduction. The door is just a plain door; it just had the DND version of beware of dog sign on it. Brennan Lee Mulligan did this really well in his D20 season called the Seven. A particular player was trying to get past a bodyguard and tried to disguise their voice; rolled low and the guard recognized her voice but instead of it being “her”, the npc bodyguard thought that the player was her mother who is a well known assassin that already went past them. It’s a great redirect and a great invitation for the player to lean in and turn a perceived failure into a possible success.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Oh nice reference! All good ideas 🍻

[@3nertia]

I may need a new mouse from clicking so hard every time I see that you've dropped a new video xD I do really enjoy that you respond to each comment. I know that, soon, your channel will grow too large to make this practical for you so I will savor it while I can; notice me, senpai! xD No one can beat a dead horse with the same panache and asmr-voice as you can :D This is seriously a useful way to do it that I haven't actually heard of yet and I watch most of the standard D&D channels lol The answer is _always_ a *list*! Lol As for the random stuff I may not have filled in yet, I bought the GM's Miscellany books which provides built-in hooks for any random room filler one may need. That combined with your list idea may prove to be most useful; thank you!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome - u can bill Rowan Witchbane for a new mouse 🏴‍☠️🤣 I shall have to look up the miscellany books they sound pretty useful. We’ll see about the comment thing, for now it’s the highlight of my day!🍻

[@3nertia]

@@tabletopalchemy It is lovely to engage with like-minded people who care about more than just their base urges heh *Googles Rowan Witchbane* Oooh, intriguing - always teaching, aren't ya? :D

[@tabletopalchemy]

Lol 🏴‍☠️

[@ironwracu5822]

Hehe...another succeeshful....sucessfill...aw screw it...great video TA From someone who also struggles with words at times!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Lol someday I’ll have a year’s worth of content that’s just 100% flubs. I can’t wait. 😂🍻

[@Lurklen]

I do this, but I don't make a concrete list. I just give an appropriate level of information as I understand it in the moment, but I might start doing this when I write up a room description. It's a little time saver, and it means I can save my improve generator for other things lol. On perception and Investigation, I never have a roll give no information. You always perceive something, and if you are poking around and there is something to find, you always find something. It just might have no relevance at all, and on a nat 1, something dramatic or some kind of setback will occur (you find a fascinating object on the shelf you were inspecting, and it falls and shatters on the floor, just as it fell you caught a glimpse of the initials of the murder suspect). I kind of carry this into all my checks (or try to). I don't like it when failure to reach a DC means nothing happens. It feels like a narrative dead zone. Failing to open the door shouldn't mean the door doesn't open, it should mean your foot goes through it, or you've broken the handle off and now it can't be opened by lock picking, or you bash it open, but you wrench your shoulder doing it. I like failing forward, at least into more interesting consequences. The results of a failed check should be as interesting, if less rewarding, as the results of a successful one, otherwise I question whether I needed a check at all (some things it's okay to just say, you can do it, but it will take x amount of time, or you cannot do it at all, at least not under these circumstances).

[@tabletopalchemy]

Awesome DM philosophy here! Agree 100%, I especially like your summary towards the end about failing forward into more interesting consequences. 🍻

[@Lurklen]

@@tabletopalchemy Thank you!

[@fenixmeaney6170]

If a player rolls low enough, have them find something else that no one was looking for. Like the getting distracted by a shoelace thing, but secretly have it be important later.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I like this idea! 🍻

[@archersfriend5900]

Cool idea, I normally don't ask for a specific target number, it makes meta gaming harder. I give bad info on failed rolls.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah knight of the red herrings lol 🏴‍☠️

[@archersfriend5900]

@Tabletop Alchemy Your investigation check on Basilisks reveal that they are afraid of cows.

[@tabletopalchemy]

🤣

[@matrakaz]

I always wanted to build a covered dice tower with individual chute (drop) for 4to5 players. And only I would see the immediat result. Dice could be color coded to player.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Ah interesting 🏴‍☠️ Lotta cool things you could make the tower look like too!

[@skevoid]

I never have players roll their own perception or investigation checks, and don't announce when they're happening. Knowing the roll results gives the players too much information that influences their actions even if they're trying to avoid metagaming, so everything feels much more natural if they don't know it. Gotta be sure that you mention who spots important details though, that way the player feels rewarded for having good bonuses to perception.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Yep that’s a solid tip for sure! It’s always hard for me to roll for players, but I can see the benefits in this case.🍻

[@benwhite8863]

I have my players roll dice 16 times and hand it to me on a piece of paper. When a secret roll is needed, I check off a box from a random piece of paper and ask for their bonus to the roll. The results are still fair, and the players made them, but they don't know if they rolled a 19 in a safe room or a 3 in a dangerous one.

[@tabletopalchemy]

This is interesting - quite a few folks use secret rolls for investigation and I had no idea lol. I could see this being pretty useful!

[@benwhite8863]

@@tabletopalchemy I also use it for things like Craft(Explosives). If they fail by more than 5, they know it and can scrap the attempt and start over. Failing by 4 or less results in an item that looks good to go, but will not function.

[@sirguy6678]

I roll a dice- I will ! No wait- I lose? Role plays games are just “20 questions-with dice”

[@tabletopalchemy]

lol they can be at times, I think the trick is to figure out how to make it not quite that, which can be difficult sometimes.

[@jshud3]

What about Ascended Bulleted Lego's... roll low... you hand them a 2x2!

[@tabletopalchemy]

Done and done! Gonna bring spare pieces next time - nat 1, you STEP on brick with bare feet 😈😂

[@jshud3]

@@tabletopalchemy LOL!!!

[@sutekh233]

@@tabletopalchemy Bah, that's what D4 caltrops are for..........

[@tabletopalchemy]

😂🏴‍☠️

[@captainufo4587]

What if you throw the players down the wrong path, though? Unless your players are used to you going into non plot crucial details, you may end up with a whole session of them investigating candlemakers in town because you mentioned the odd smell, while the plot actually continues behind the hidden door they're not even thinking about anymore.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I play with a particular core mindset to enable as much “open world-ness” as possible. I will probably do a video on that and maybe I can kick it off by showing your comment, you make a very valid point (for which I do have an answer lol). 🍻

[@jamesshearer3936]

GM should roll those checks in secret. And it hurts me, just a little, to say that. Player agency is important. Very important. Which is what causes the pain. Taking die rolls out of the player's hands isn't something I do lightly. But in this case it is needed. And with bullet lists, the GM can ease the pain of taking the die roll by always offering up at least a little information.

[@tabletopalchemy]

I feel the same way lol but I haven’t started “taking their rolls away” yet - but I can see the usefulness of doing so in certain situations. Dang it. 😅

[@blackwolfe638]

No way to avoid it... Hidden roll.

[@tabletopalchemy]

Cruel DM lol - jk, totally usable technique. (I just like when players roll dice lol.)

[@VerumAdPotentia]

Give me a charisma check. Hmm, okay, though it appears that you tripped over your own tongue, twice, including it as a blooper at the end of the video appears to have endeared you to the subscribers. 😉

[@tabletopalchemy]

Lol - I guarantee you it was more than twice!

[@DiscoBarbarian]

so rolls like this I prefer as both DM and player to talk about what we are looking at and investigating rolls should be rarer and mostly for quick looks like in combat or when in a hurry. Would much rather roleplay the actual investigation, the DM should give any relevant information if the player searches properly (you could use your investigation/perception rolls if they come close but not quite describe the right place.) and in all cases I prefer the DM to make that roll behind a screen. this way I'm pure in my reaction to the information given.

[@tabletopalchemy]

All great ideas! I do like the randomness myself so I get to be surprised by the story too, but I totally get where you’re coming from. 🍻