Wargame Rules Are More Important Than VIBES

The vibes to a game - the lore, the art, the models, etc. - are important, but they're NOT as important as the rules.
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[@Babusca92]

Warhammer Came for the minis. Stayed for the lore. Suffer the rules.

[@Quisiio0303456]

The story of us all.

[@SoloAnteelDADO]

You can always scape. Change the mind of your colleagues or if not, try solo!

[@Mikey__R]

I stopped suffering the rules as 40k 9th came out. I realised I'd bought more books than I'd played games in 8th, so it wasn't a worthwhile spend to get the next edition.

[@SoloAnteelDADO]

@@Mikey__R Totally agree. I am an Astra Militarum player. I was getting bored with only competitive gaming and when almost same day that AM Codex came out the announced new edition I said "I stop here"

[@billdefranza4927]

THIS

[@brighamgorzealion]

Strongly agree. I am a Hobby Shop and I make a living selling and building a community and the biggest thing I've learned operating for 3 years is this. -New people curious about miniature war-gaming feel embarrassed to try since it is little toys, games like WW2 and Star Wars are good introductions since they are familiar and overall the star wars legion game and Bolt Action are extremely friendly for entry game systems. -Game's Workshop rules changes, updates, and out dating rule books has made more people quit the hobby, stop buying, stop participating, and give up than any other aspect of this industry. The way they focus on tournaments and the meta does push people away and it has hurt my business because of it. The biggest issue I have is products will essentially expire like an army rulebook sometimes within the same week it is released due to rule patches and updates and those hundreds of dollars in inventory and shelving of just 5 of those books becomes lost income and directly hurts my ability to order more inventory. -Agnostic game systems have given a lot of options for 3rd party miniature lines to be shelved, encouraging kitbashing and creativity which the artistic side of the hobby draws more consumable sales like paints, material, and conversation as we all brainstorm new ways to approach projects. Agnostic is more consumer friendly and you the consumer will benefit from more products and value from your money being involved with it. The only ones who don't are these global corporations that wouldn't know if one day you passed away, but your local community does, they know who you are, they know what you liked, and what your hobbies were. They value your time, money, and presence. Value your community, they are who cares about you, nameless giant corporations are not your friend.

[@YeAuldGrump]

There are three player factions in our One Page Rules community - One group, slightly larger than the others, uses the OPR settings. It's enough to build the battles around, and is 'good enough'. The second largest group plays using GW's settings, mostly 40K. The third group is creating their own settings, or at least sub-setting. My Notcromunda campaign falls into this group. Instead of one mega hive, there are six (formerly seven) smaller hive cities interconnected by roads, tunnels, and even canals both on the surface and underground. Our groups split from GW about midway through 9th edition 40K. It was definitely the rules, not the settings, that alienated the players.

[@YeAuldGrump]

As an aside - it was a Lot easier to bring players onboard for OPR than it was for Mantic - much as I love Kings of War.

[@miller1172]

I love the simple yet extremely flavorfulness of the great ruleset that is turnip28, played 40k for way too long left at the turn of 10th ed and will never go back. Love the 40k old lore and 5th/6th ed rules. But rules so simple it's grey like how the models start are the post 2018 games workshop way, way too smooth.

[@wombat_the_kid]

My father, my close buddy, and myself use GW Lore and models but use the OPR rule set. Was the best decision we ever made as a group.

[@suddenlysarablog]

@@YeAuldGrump I had the exact same experience with OPR - I was trying to get back into 40k when 10e came out, as I have around 5000 points worth of Necrons that are collecting dust and I was getting the wargaming itch again. I was met with a collective "meh" from the group, even when I offered to 3D print proxies for everyone. When I suggested ORP as an alternative, people I didn't even know were interested in wargaming wanted to join the group!

[@magimon91834]

I like to use OPR to play the 40k universe right before the great crusade. It makes sense why there are so many different alien species, it's because the emperor hasn't done genocide on most of them yet

[@user-xi2vf6ih6w]

Maybe I'm revealing my age here, but I started wargaming way back when there was no such thing as "dedicated miniatures". There were miniatures - and for most of us this was primarily Airfix plastic miniatures and UNPAINTED - and then there were rulebooks. The first rulebook I ever used was by Donald Featherstone "Wargaming Airborne Operations" and they were about as basic and "agnostic" as you could get. Your thoughts on this, and the trend towards these agnostic rules sets speak to me in a very nostalgic way, and I applaud them. All the best!

[@alexxavier5408]

I had that (Wargaming Airborne Operations) as a kid... and it was a transformative text in my life.

[@malefic5254]

I've been developing my own tabletop wargame as a modification for 10th edition, and I gotta say that getting people to play something even *SLIGHTLY* different, even just as a playtest, it's absolutely wild. It's like pulling teeth, even if they hate the current rules!

[@Mosaic117]

Could you put a pdf up on a website or social media or smth? I’d be happy to play test an alt-40K and give feedback :D

[@ricjackson2841]

I’d be game to try

[@Mosaic117]

@@thomgizziz that’s not a very kind or reassuring thing to say. He has friends and he wants to try something new. I’d wager given how emotionally charged your response to this was, that your not exactly drowning in friends

[@captainferrite]

At least you tried to playtest, so you already have one over GW.

[@101Mant]

​@@thomgizzizwhat crawled up your butt and died? If you are hanging with friends it's not a waste of time, and if you start testing with a smaller scale it's and hour or two. Really no big deal. If you never try anything you won't ever find anything better, no guarantees in life.

[@THX-to6gg]

I think it’s in the 2nd edition 40K rule book that it states that “these rules are just a framework” and it goes on go to encourage players to modify, add or subtract rules to suit their own needs. Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game but as GW declare that only 3 to 4% of their customers ever attend a tournament then I think it’s still good advice for the casual players out there. As to using other miniatures with other rulesets. I often use the Middle Earth rule set with historical and even Age of Sigmar minis.

[@Subject_Keter]

I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change" I hate how it like "you stick with rules that may be shoddy or like everyone explodes if you say "Potions should Heal for 60% to 100% on roll" cuz they got no creative bones in body."

[@KristovMars]

Those books were also full of crazy notions like "build your own vehicle model from a shampoo bottle!", which thankfully made an impression on me that lasts to this day

[@IVIaskerade]

"Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game" You're wrong about this though. It has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments or even competitive play. It's about having a baseline so that two strangers can play a game together without knowing anything about each other beforehand because they have a shared understanding of the rules by which the game is played. Even as far back as 2e, very few people were playing custom rules. Most people used it as-is because it meant your group didn't isolate itself from the wider community, and if you couldn't play with your friends you could go play with someone else using the same list.

[@IVIaskerade]

@@Subject_Keter 'I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"' They all already do that implicitly. But to actually have that happen, you need a consistent group who all play together and don't tend to play outside that group. Those groups inherently understand that they, in their insular gaming, can modify things however they want. Everyone else understands that they can't modify things the way they want, because a shared baseline is more important.

[@Subject_Keter]

​@@IVIaskerade Obviously, i just see too many mind slaves shackled to GW and dont try.

[@samclegg6998]

Vibes get me to try a game and rules will get me to play it again

[@davemclay5083]

Literally tried One Page Rules, Grimdark Firefight last night with Necromunda models. Easy to learn, Smooth, and so much FUN. Committed to this ruleset. Highly recommend.

[@cavemanbum]

OPR's warband builder, Army Forge, is fantastic as well! Hope you give that a try.

[@NoobixCube]

At the start of the video, when you said "crunchy", like a simulation, slowing down play, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech", and when you said "streamlined", abstracted and without flavour, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech Alpha Strike". Battletech truly bookends the rules density scale.

[@chrishambrick5360]

Certainly crunchy at the base but you can at least just add what you want. We have been enjoying the Forced Withdrawal rule for cutting down the amount of time playing. Of course, your mileage might vary.

[@inplacesdeep]

If only they had one that was in the middle, but alas!

[@itxi]

​@@inplacesdeepthe battlemech manual

[@VictorSteiner]

And if those two modes are too extreme for you, there is the DeatFromAboveWargaming mod called „Battletech: Override“ that is the absolute sweet spot for people who don‘t have that much time because of kids but don‘t want to play a game that is as far away from classic as Alpha Strike.

[@VictorSteiner]

@@inplacesdeepSee Battletech:Override kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHjJfpZ-Za-haqMsi=usq7_DdhoQNm97Rf

[@dajavuja]

My FLGS has a group that uses miniatures from Warmamachine, Warhammer 40k and fantasy/AoS, Infinity, plus a mix of minis from agnostic miniature copies to play Xenos Rampant by Osprey games.

[@krl10101]

From Blazing Saddles, " harrumph!".

[@philedwards7331]

Brother Howard Johnson??? Please don't tell me the Arbites are near...

[@gideongallant1185]

I bet that’s awesome, especially if they have a unifying color scheme or visual style for each army

[@redsven7624]

The flip side of that is that embracing other rules frees your hobby, don't enjoy certain rules sets but like the models paint them have fun and it's not wasted hobby time as you can use them in another. Whatever you want to paint can and will find a use, and often without maybe having to paint a whole massive force to fit a particular game

[@jester7028]

100%! I’m using Stargrave minis, Warhammer 40k, killteman and necromunda models for Stargrave, space station zero and a bunch of other mini agnostic games

[@tabletopminions]

Exactly. Thanks for watching!

[@PlatinumWoW]

Im a pretty casual fan of Lord of the Rings but the Middle Earth Strategy Wargame has such tight and easy to understand rules that I've fallen in love with it.

[@NisGaarde]

Rules can and do change from edition to edition. The vibe usually stays the same. If I'm going to paint up 100 minis for a wargame I'd better _LOVE_ the vibe.

[@AdoringAdmirer]

100% agreed. I'm also just not bothering with a wargame or it's miniatures if it has a shitty or uninteresting vibe to it. Vibe is king.

[@NuSocTheKelDor]

I'd say with the proliferation of model agnostic games that allow players to create their own settings or use preexisting settings, finding the right rules is probably more important because that's what's going to keep players wanting to come back. You pick a game based on vibes, but the way it plays determines your enjoyment and therefore how long you're going to continue with it.

[@tabletopminions]

Right, but the point is that the vibes and the rules can be separate - you can love your Space Marines but use them in a different ruleset that you enjoy more than 40K, for example. Thanks for watching!

[@suburbansurvival8239]

​​@@tabletopminions The problem with that idea becomes apparent when you plop your Nurgle Marines across the table from a Star Wars droid army. 2 people can like a rule set but end up with different vibes. Some people won't like that. Tyranids and Space Marines will always fit. Halo minis vs Stormtroopers? Maybe not.

[@NuSocTheKelDor]

@@suburbansurvival8239 On the other hand, it doesn't matter if the vibes are right if you don't enjoy the mechanics of the game. Space Marines vs Tyranids may be cool, but no one is going to play out that scenario if it's a slog to do. Vibes get people in the door, but mechanics are what keep them playing.

[@draconicdust3435]

Something to remember about big game companies is that the bottom line isnt fun its money. GW, FF, etc make money on the miniatures, paints, etc. The rules are just a way for them to push their least sold miniatures back into the light. Also talkign about miniature agnostic games, I based a bunch of lego minifigs on 25mm bases. Used them for war gaming, worked perfectly. I dont use them anymore but it was cool. Also if you are in need you can buy lego sets and use them as terrain and get miniatures too.

[@w0197]

I started just playing by myself. I have loved making my own terrain and battle table. I can play games that I'd never be able to find players for. I'm going through a Relicblade campaign rn and once that's done Im doing Deth Wizards. No schedules to work around. No sore losers. No begging people to play Skirmish games. Just fun in my basement.

[@Subject_Keter]

Idk why but it so fun to set up the board, the rules and what not and play stuff out. It like abit of Zen.

[@cavemanbum]

I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition in 2017. I'd been playing since the Rogue Trader era in the late 1980s; I wasn't willing to just give up my 5 completely painted armies, so I found ways to use them in other games. Grimdark Future, Stargrave, Rogue Stars, Xenos Rampant, and Space Weirdos all have helped breathe new life into my ridiculously large sci-fi miniatures collections.

[@NewSquallor]

100% on every single point. More people need to watch this and really really listen. Also add the not so helpful line. "The multi-million dollar company doesn't need you to defend it's rules. They don't care about you."

[@MarcGacy]

Last week we played the old Battle Masters game using rules from GMT’s Commands and Colors at our FLGS. We had a blast! Our Minis Agnostic Game Night is always loads of fun. We just finished a short Frostgrave:GA arc, we’ve tried some home brew games from members and played a ton of indie games. Definitely “Be the change you want to see” is the driving force.

[@LupusGr3y]

OPR allowed me and a buddy to answer the question: Who would win if Battletech and 40K got in a fight, battlemechs vs imperial knights. For now it's imperial knights, but the inner sphere is not beaten yet!

[@Mosaic117]

A game I’m currently running in place of the new kill team (which is fine, but pretty complex and none of the things I’d personally look for in skirmish games) is fistful of lead, which is like a mini agnostic, timeline agnostic, litr use any period you want retro-style game. You basically get five guys, give them all keywords to reflect what *you* think they’d do on the tabletop, and roll some dice.

[@michamalinowski8015]

That's something that always surprised me about people playing games in fictional settings- they say they hate what GW does to the system, but they don't want to play other games because they like GW minis or lore... like that's something chained together. Miniatures and rules are two different things. For me, as a historical wargamer - the historical conflicts are my vibes. I buy what minis I like. We have some rulesets on shelves for the same conflict. So we want to play napoleonics this week, and if we want something crunchy we will play Gods of War- Napoleon, if we want something fast and easy going we will use the same minis and play De Bellis Napoleonicis. Do whatever- don't let anybody dictate how to play. Buy minis you like, play games you enjoy.

[@Sonintendy]

My current shoutout for mini-agnostic stuff is Warsurge. Great system for people who like to have a lot of control over their armies rules and just making really fun and unique stuff. It’s essentially 5-7th Ed 40k inspired mechanics with just pages upon pages of special rules covering everything from psychological effects, to elemental strengths/weaknesses, to spells, buffs/debuffs and more.

[@cavemanbum]

Looks awesome! I'm going to investigate further. Thanks!

[@franciscadigan3876]

One Page Rules is amazing especially as a Warhammer lore fan if you want to focus on timely matches and priority on storytelling over complicated rules. It also allows much more freedom between the different rulesets. You can play fleets, armies and skirmishes with largely comparable rules, even within the same storyline

[@PeterAyresNCS-ys9qk]

CodeBlade is one of the best mini agnostic games that’s really worth a look - shortlisted for best new miniatures rules award at the UKGE this year! The game attracts people for its rules from beyond the cyberpunk fanbase.

[@wiebeposthuma4686]

Wooohooo learned a new word today : behoove=it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something. Thanks! And yes we all should try out more (indie) games. Great advice as always.

[@withDefiance]

Very much appreciated Uncle Adam. I really like how you are able to bring together so many different systems and help people broaden their horizon. It definitively has cost me some time tl break free from the "closed unsiverse"

[@kylecoston9473]

When it comes to rules systems and wargamers, I'm always shocked when people wax poetic for an older edition of 40k, but when I suggest that you can still play that edition that treat me like the one talking crazy.

[@carletonification]

Your content is so great for my mental health. Just friendly tabletop games talk. Love it

[@tabletopminions]

I’m glad to hear that - mental health is really important and something that I think is overlooked in this hobby. Thanks for watching!

[@artistpoet5253]

One Page Rules used to be my preferred version of 40k. Then I found Space Weirdos and a bunch of other light systems. I realized that I prefer less rules and more options across war bands. I still have all my 40k/Necromunda minis and those that came in the box games sold through Barnes and Noble.

[@AlexJP88]

Really liking your robot design and colours T shirt.

[@catzeyesentertainment]

I can only agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said. Myself, I come from a time, when you got a recommendation in a RPG's fanzine to "just pick any miniature you like" to play that RPG with miniatures. The same fanzine suggested proxying miniatures for a DM: Use a robber to represent all kinds of human opponents, use a skeleton to represent all kinds of undead opponents and so on. For starters (with "starters" meaning "starting pretty much at the very beginning of fantasy miniature gaming"), that was enough. So, I learned a craft that's lost today: getting along with what you've got and using imagination. Today, some 1500 or so models later, I have sci fi soldiers, fantasy knights, cowboys, 15mm lawngnomes (I'm not kidding!) and what else. Having this collection I was like "screw it, I want one set of rules I can use to play with all those models and even pit models of different settings versus each other." Thus, I've written my own rules and released them for free. And what's even better: on Facebook I can see other people post photos showing how they are enjoying my rules - and this is the best gift I have ever gotten in my entire life :)

[@PeepoStrong]

Was playing 40k for some time, but was getting disappointed by the fact that I had to re-learn rule-changes each time when I'm playing, plus for most of time I was not allowed to use the minis that I wanted most - especially for Kill Team. Then I moved to OPR and suddenly I was able to bring my boys to the table for the first time. And I was able to play more games with it in a shorter period of time. Currently painting some dwarf broforce to do some zombie slaying survival with them based on the OPR.

[@davidcollins9213]

I'm a big fan of Kings of War. The lore itself is fine, but I chose to ignore it and think of something up myself when I started. And by golly, did my imagination get LIT ON FIRE. I've often looked at the rules and went, "This is good lore here, but what else can these rules represent?" Or more often, "these models look sweet! What force can I put them in that makes sense?" Or sometimes a modeling or kitbashing idea to try. For example: My magma men are mostly stormcast eternal minis with fire sculpted where their heads should be, while using the riftforged orcs list for stats. It's a blast.

[@tmorton42]

Another good, thought-provoking video! Our group is mostly an indie game group (plus Battletech Alpha Strike and Bolt Action). OPR, Weirdos games, Song of Blades and Heros, Pulp Alley to name a few. We also look at and review (for ourselves) probably 1 or 2 games a week on average. The current mantra for our "internal reviews" is "Neat setting, that we could incorporate into known existing rule sets". When looking to buy (or have our friend Skip print for us) a new mini, one of the top criteria is: How many games will this miniature work in? Because we use multiple minis from multiple companies for multiple games. Heavily laden opinions to follow: I don't think I could name a "favorite". Bolt Action, Alpha Strike, Grim Dark Future (GDF) and GDF Firefight are at the top of my personal list. We have decided that the "perfect" game, for us, does not exist, but we keep looking. Every game system has its pros and cons. We use the categories of the "5 M's". I don't know who came up with this, but I learned it from Daron Patton. Move, Missile, Melee, Magic, Morale. For all of these rules sets, do we like how each of those work? How does Movement (including activation) work in this game?...and so on. We learn new systems in this context as well. Thanks again for the video! Keep 'em coming!

[@jamesmaas7244]

Sometimes i buy the miniatures because they are cool and don't care about the rules. (Crucible Guard in Warmachine)

[@televiper11]

Battletech became my game cuz the rules really work for me.

[@NexusWargaming]

Thanks for the OPR shoutout! I'm trying to grow my local OPR community. I've been teaching new players every week. OPR is even better because you can create your own version of their armies using the custom army creator.

[@argy8141]

Endorse Ash's batreps. He has saved me wasting a whole host of cash on rules that are unlikely to hit my dopamine centre. Another aspect to note is that you, your environment and your priorities will change over time and thus the rulesets you use may also change. Don't forget scale and the benefits of being able to reuse scenery elements. I've had mates who had a permanent 8x4 board, great for vehicle combat, mass rank and flank and can be left up over night for a large weekend battles. In recent times I'm stuck with a 6x3 dining room table that needs to be used daily. Quick setup and reset is now more important than deep and crunchy. 3x3 skirmish is where I am at most of the time these days. However, you need to find rulesets that you can identify with, no different to finding a partner, a sport or an employer. And it's great that we are all different and value different things. There are some great potential rulesets in the US that are cost prohibitive to get in the UK. I know the issue is reciprocated with UK stuff being expensive in the US. I think you and Vince have done a great job in allowing us in the UK to get your rulesets printed for a small postage premium. So in line with we don't praise the systems we love, these are the rulesets I currently use and am fond of, in no particular order. An eclectic mix of eras based on 40 years of collecting miniatures and having the ability to wargame with whatever my guest(s) want to play. I've tried keeping at 28mm to be able to reuse tabletop scenery. 28mm Five Parsces from Home Five Leagues from the Borderland Mantic Deadzone John Lambshead One Hour Skirmish Neil Thomas One Hour Wargames 7TV The Pikemens Lament Fear and Faith Mutants and Death Ray Guns Other scales Mantic Kings of War Armada Void Admiral Have fun and thanks for another great thought provoking video.

[@cavemanbum]

Ash's battle reports for Frostgrave back in 2015 were the catalyst for my gaming group and I trying out the system. We've been hardcore fans ever since.

[@NecroNikos]

I loved your last tip. I got fed up with how toxic and unfun 40k games was and stopped playing for a long time after 13 years. One year ago I remembered another miniature game that I used to play way back called malifaux. I introduced it to my friends and right now we have all stopped playing 40k and we are enjoying that new game for over a year.

[@vagabondprime1691]

I'm seeing a huge uptick in interest in Malifaux with my local game stores and it's so great to see! It's such a wonderful, fun, and sadistic little game! I'm glad you're having fun with it, too!

[@NecroNikos]

@@vagabondprime1691 3rd edition made huge changes and is very beginner friendly. Right now in about a month we are going to make our first tournament!

[@squall1797]

Man, I hope this trend makes it to my neck of the woods, I love Malifaux but no one around me plays anymore despite me trying haha. Would love to see an uptick of it!

[@MW-xi9oy]

also, don't forget those editions of 40k you loved, for example, you already have on your shelf! I love 3rd edition and would rather play this :)

[@tomasburgos7017]

As always great to listen to what you have to say and bring to the table of Miniature Games.

[@ParkaSpace]

Over the last two days I've been getting over an emotional rollercoaster of unrelated issues, and one of the things that dragged me out of that hole was discovering mini-agnostic wargames with campaign play. I've been trawling for any free rulesets I can find since then, making notes about what I liked and what I didn't about each. Super interesting right now.

[@BartoszDebski]

Just played Xenos Rampant with w40k minis, cool AF as we both had lot's of fun.

[@danielhenderson8000]

Honestly...good point. And one that I have been thinking more and more about. I've been getting into things like Frostgrave, and looking forward to Deth Wizards, and the idea of just...making whatever miniatures I want or using random miniatures even outside of the lore feels pretty liberating. And after realizing I get a daunted and disinterested feeling every time I even GLANCE at the 40k rules, maybe something like One Page Rules is the better option. I do admit, at least a PART of my loyalty lies in the fact that I am an employee of and dedicated to my LGS. But both Warhammer and Magic have shown more and more issues while other games look so much more fresh and well designed....it does make me think. But the money still comes more from those two major juggernauts, so I feel so weirdly obligated. That is also probably the reason I simply...focus elsewhere and do a lot of hobby in my free time, though...

[@Christian_from_Copenhagen]

Here's an idea for a video: We hobbyists like to talk about miniature agnostic rulesets, but what about rules agnostic miniatures? An example could be someone like me with exclusively sci-fi minis and terrain who is interested in getting into fantasy, but not one specific ruleset. There are many intriguing rulesets on offer: the new AoS Spearhead mode, Kings of War, Mordheim, Frostgrave, Rangers of Shadow Deep, Deth Wizards, all with different mechanics to explore and have fun with. Which miniatures/factions would be the most versatile to build and paint for all these different systems? Necromancers and zombies might fit the bill, but what else? Could the cool new Skaven models find use in all of these? Or the great-looking Gloomspite Gitz Vanguard box? Are regular Frostgrave humans the safest bet? It's something I'm considering a lot at the moment, because I'd basically be starting from scratch and would like a lot of bang for my buck (and time) in terms of what miniatures to buy, build and paint. I thought it sounded just like a topic for you, so I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on this. Cheers!

[@RavenAdventwings]

Star Breach is a great skirmish game rule! I've been playing it since its beta test alongside the creator. It's a really quick and simple mechanic that works well at small scale firefights and you'll only need to worry about having 4-8 models on the table. You can even have big stompin' mechs, big monsters, and scary demons all playing on the same table. There are even 3-player and 4-player scenarios for big group games in the paid version of the rules.

[@RPGfigures]

Rules in fantasy games are like potions: they're confusing to make, they have strange effects, and players argue over who gets the last one.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

One aspect of certain people’s reluctance to try other, non big GW systems... The Friday night group at one of LGS is very much a competition focused crew. They view their weekly games as tournament prep and list testing opportunities. So these folks are heavily invested in 40k and/or AoS. Do they complain about the rules? All the time. Are they interested in trying other systems? Not at all. Part of the “problem” is that, for example, 40k is so complex and changes so often that I believe committed players just don’t want to, or just don’t have the mental resources available to absorb another system. I’ve certainly heard people say that keeping all the 40k interactions straight is tough enough without adding the confusion of assimilating another rule set.

[@tabletopminions]

Doesn’t sound like fun to me - sounds like work. Games should be fun. Thanks for watching!

[@joriankell1983]

Sounds eerily similar to the psychology of abusive relationships

[@stonehorsegaming]

I've been playing miniature games since the 80's, so quite some time now, and in that time, I have just become jaded with how rules are. They swing wildly between oversimplified to too clunky, the happy medium between these two seems to be a rarity. So, I've set myself a goal to design a set of Fantasy Rank & Flank rules that is simple enough to learn, but retains depth. Currently I have all the core rules done just working on the units for the many fantasy races. After that, I have no idea how to make it available for people.

[@valacan]

I'm enjoying your Deth wizard game! The push and pull of the necromantic energy being both hit point and magic points is really interesting. And I can use my GW minis without having to deal with the fact that I have to learn yet another new edition of AoS for no reason.

[@robling1937]

I feel like i'm branching out in my table top gaming, both rpgs and war games. I'm really enjoying DCC and Grimdark Firefight

[@billmatwij539]

The biggest bit for me is pushing for older editions of Warhammer to be played. The later editions just haven't been up to snuff, but I can't seem to shake the "newest is best" mindset from my locals. Just going to have to keep at it and hope something sticks. Great video as always, always great to hear you break down other perspectives and options.

[@davidmesh5491]

Have you considered trying Necromunda or 30k they have older style rulesets but are new enough for people to enjoy.

[@billmatwij539]

@@davidmesh5491 Oh no totally, already do, just would like to also see some Oldhammer in the works as well. Good shout though

[@michaelstrange2285]

No "Pa-chow" this time around, but offset by the "behoove". Good subject and presentation, as always, Mr. Loper!

[@codydavidson5157]

I definitely agree with this like 90%, but I also feel like the game FEEL really turns people away from using alternate rules for their favourite settings. Personally I do enjoy 10th edition 40K and honestly most of the games I’ve played, but I think you can’t really ignore the fact that a space marine won’t feel like a space marine in a game with no space marines, and also that some people are frustrated with the feel of stuff like that already within their own game where there isn’t even a better alternative

[@social_ghost]

I really enjoy the Oldhammered channel for their battle reports, they play indie games but use whatever minis fit with the games setting often old GW minis.

[@danwarford9695]

I managed to find one box of Skaven Clanrats at my local GS, they are now painted for the D&D campaign I'm running. I'm also painting the Wayward Eight from Wild West Exodus to use for Space Station Zero.

[@ItWasSaucerShaped]

one time i tired using GW minis in a D&D campaign and i LITERALLY DIED do NOT attempt posting this as a warning to anyone thinking about making this mistake

[@abnon-tha3088]

It's such an obvious point, upon analysis, but one so easily overlooked - especially when the lore and the quality of minis are so hugely invested in. Well done for making it, though - I couldn't agree more. This is the engine of a game - it's essential that it works properly and delivers an experience worthy of the time and money hobbyists invest in it.

[@captainferrite]

40k has great rules, that's why there have to be massive overhauls twice a year

[@anexistanthuman2435]

Problem is that GW doesn’t see each edition on their own merits, and instead just craps out a new one instead of fixing what they have

[@joriankell1983]

​@@anexistanthuman2435they recycle rules constantly and leave in rules that are terrible on purpose so it needs an update

[@Subject_Keter]

GW knows their models and stuff is a one time thing. So they throw the rule books for this and that. Infinite profit.

[@jg6935]

I've played and collected and painted GW stuff for so long and so many years that I was super into the sunk cost fallacy. Then I made the jump to Infinity (which I love, but is way too rules dense) after tinkering for a bit, I then moved into OPR. I haven't had much luck converting people to OPR out of the 40K group, but I've had a lot more fun playing. Now, I'm looking at more and more mini-agnostic games just to play cool stuff.

[@benthomas5759]

The Battlefield by Brent Spivey is one of my most favorite rules sets. It is tactical but very streamlined. Offers a bunch of options for force customization and does a great job of creating an ultra-modern/hard sci-fi "vibe".

[@maxxon99]

The only games I play for the ”vibes” are historical ones.

[@DasDevilSquid]

With model design being what it is at this point in time, "good looking models" are now an expectation, but it's the rules that really keep my attention on a game.

[@MrSimombo]

You tell me what I already know. But it's just nice to listen to your ramblings :)

[@TheRealRetroBeard]

I tried this by using my Warhammer fantasy models in King's of War. It felt like I was playing at playing Warhammer. I realise the fault is with me and my mental limits 😂

[@chrisdoherty1072]

"The novels are just full of lore. That's kind of the point of novels, really." Okay, I LOLed.

[@user-sy8ew6gb7q]

I got into Citadel (yes, I said Citadel - not Warhammer or 40k) because of the minis. When I tried gaming, I didn't really enjoy it. I realized I prefer table top RPGs. Those, by the way, are easily made miniature-agnostic, since the minis represent whatever you say you are doing. But I continue to build and paint units from both "OldHammer," and 40k, mostly using proxies that i 3d print. I enjoy the vibe, and build and paint however I like. So, I think you nailed this topic on the head.

[@1994chocolatemilk]

My favorite rules set is Infinity. To me it has the perfect granularity and really captures what I want in a game. It's a little too crunchy and time consuming right now though because I have a lot on my plate so I am currently looking at Blkout because it seems to have the same feel to the rules but at a much faster level. I'm waiting for one of the guys at my hobby shop to get his stuff for it so he can run a demo of it.

[@wtfserpico]

Stopping in to tickle the algo and say that I've been playing Deth Wizards with my 10y/o daughter using a mix of minis from Kingdom Death, Castle Ravenloft board game, Descent Journeys in the Dark 1st edition and a few other miscelanous minis I have and we've been having an absolute blast! Regarding rules; the rules are why I love Kill Team and Warcry but will never make the leap to "full" 40k.

[@ivanchristian2822]

I'm literally watching this while painting some three year old unused Chainrasps to use with by Spirit Caller for Deth Wizards.

[@jrkistler]

Thank you for this reminder. It's hard to remember that everyone is in a different place and their opinions, no matter how loud or informed or echoed, don't have to be YOUR be-all-end-all. Looking foward to finally getting some minis on the table for Space Station Zero and living out some Alternate Kill Team scenarios :)

[@kelarionprime9273]

Zone Raiders and Full Spectrum Dominance are my two go to games for amazing games. I love the cyberpunk, skirmish level combat that Zone Raiders has. The movement is second to none in my opinion, with your figures running and grappling around the battlefield like a cyber ninja. FSD is the flip side of that though. More 2D, but the gameplay is fast, small footprint, and more tactical since you have only a limited number of activations, so planning is important otherwise key aspects of your force may sit idle.

[@tinytitan13]

Currently getting into "The Silver Bayonet". I enjoyed Guerrilla Miniature Games Battle Reports on Mordheim and found Silver Bayonet on his channel as well. I remembered Peachy Tips making a video about it. Checked it out and started to really get into it.

[@braydenb1581]

During covid i waa gonna get into warhammer. I bought a rule book. My son and i used peices from various risk games i have for army peices. I found we didnt like the rules of warhammer so i didnt get into it. But we made our own basic rules. Was fun

[@RcomplexRandy]

My very first wargaming group (1992) used Games Workshop’s Warhammer Fantasy rules with homemade paper shapes cut from custom, base-sized graph paper to represent models and units. At different points in my life, i was a competitive player in a few systems BUT i 100% link success back to those days of paper models. I think the key to it was that since we didn’t have model availability to hold us back we mostly all played a different faction like every week. For a brand new player it was a mind opening experience.

[@mattyno964]

Rules are most important thing, which is why I can't understand why 40k is so popular

[@NoobixCube]

Incumbency. It's a powerful force.

[@KrunkleNutz]

​@@thomgizzizlook at this salty Stan trolling everyone who's engaging with the video. Go be happy and interact with folks who don't have issues with 40k rules.

[@101Mant]

Well some might say finding players is the most important, without that there is no game. Not everyone prioritizes rules, particularly as in something like 40k its changed at lot over the editions.

[@kamerionsmith4551]

sunk cost fallacy

[@BetaRayBill32]

I didn't grow up with 40K so its popularity is baffling to me. I really don't see the appeal on any level.

[@edwardclay7551]

And yes ive used miniatures from mixed manufacturers in a lot of miniature agnostic games.

[@saltfreegamer]

I think the reason ppl stick with rules they don't like is the amount of effort it takes to learn most games. In the ' 60s, before D&D and Warhammer started commoditizing tabletop gaming, everyone played their own house rules games, bodged together from rules spread by word of mouth and zine style publishing. In that sense, rules don't matter at all. Just play whatever you like, be nice to your fellow players, and enjoy your hobby! 🤯

[@stephenbutler9432]

I used a trencher from war machine to represent my traitor guardsman with a launcher, it took everyone the entire game to notice.

[@CloseToZero]

Oh, i have opinions. I absolutely fell in love with OPR Firefights the last year, because as someone who is mainly into painting small groups of units, "bring whatever" is really appealing. I bring Space Marines, you bring garden gnomes? Splendid! I can buy whatever range i enjoy by whatever company or artist and make it work. And for crunchy rules, i love Battletech. It was my introduction into the whole nerdverse decades ago, and i love how miniscule details about every mech matter. That being said, it's so crunchy that i nowadays mostly play it over the free online client which will do the hundreds of dice rolls for me. Just this week i finished a battle within an evening that would've taken us multiple days on tabletop. That's why i think they're going in the right direction with the Alpha Strike rules, which is like a completely different ruleset for the same game that turns it into something resembling a skirmish game. Being able to finish a game in one session is really important to me.

[@HeretixAevum]

40k models, 40k setting, OPR rules is the way for me.

[@elcomandantedavid]

I like: Star Breach for the initiative system and army lists. Space Weirdos for the sandbox vibe and solo play. Forbidden Psalm family for small model counts and appeal for my d20 rpg friends. Tobel28 and other indie 28 games for quick teaching.

[@uriance88]

The best example to watch grafting 40K onto another game system is Ash over at Guerilla Miniature Games playing Stargrave with an Inquisitor and retinue

[@Hunrakku3]

It's a very important message... well, about as 'important' as anything related to toys and games is gonna get. Once you've got a set of minis you like... then you should feel free to use them in whatever settings you like using whatever rules you prefer. Play '40K' with Ganesha's Mutants and Death Ray Guns, or play '40K' with THW's 5150, or play '40K' with OPR's GDF. You do not have to toe the company line and will probably be happier if you don't.

[@thomasgrable1746]

I'm currently enjoying Deth Wizards, using a mix of Warmachine (Cryx) and various other minis. It's giving me incentive to get more of my undead painted, and I'm working on more 3D terrain that I can use with Deth Wizards as well as Warmachine and D&D. It's a good time.

[@greywhizard]

Rules are king.

[@BwfVid]

Many times for me the rules are the vibe. A good ruleset gets my creative juices flowing!

[@gk7003]

Be the change you want to see absolutely!

[@MrBizteck]

How the hell did I NOT notice the tiny fireworks before ?

[@andystocking5316]

GMG is how I've gotten into several games now, solid recomendation.

[@Elroach]

My current favorite system by far is Kill team. Took over my interest in big army 40k

[@Frisbeehat]

A short while back I took a quick peek at Wargamevault and saw Deth Wizards front and center, thought it looked interesting but wasn't necessarily the "vibe" I was going for at first glance. Maybe a day or two later I watched and re-watched a video on it from ULC Battle Reports as a first try/first impression and he sold me. Currently going to use some of the OPR Mummified Undead I have and a generous fistful of BriteMini's undead as well as (living) Arabian-style minis for heroes, and scrounging or printing more terrain to complete the desert theme. Having a difficult time finding spirit-type minis I want to use. Conclusion: I agree rules are more important than vibes, with exceptions. and again to shout out ULC Battle Reports.

[@LukeMartinVideo]

I didn't think OPR could work as well as it did. Me and my now playing buddy had so many different games we decided to try opr with primaris and mini marines but also dust 49 walkers and the mechanicus dune walker. So lot's of fun, so much fun ! When 10 40k wasn't much fun for me against alpha strikers... So rules are gold but a good player if invaluable ❤❤❤❤❤

[@SPARKY-og6ld]

This is how I started playing the new blkout game, guard miniatures were a great proxy until I learned that I enjoyed playing and bought the blkout models, very well said!

[@theprussianbasterd5149]

We are a couple of old blokes who still play W40k 8th edition. Plus house-rules to better reflect the fluff. You might even say it’s more like 2nd edition, since I end up being something of a GM for our tabletop stories.

[@redmist1122]

Up until 8 years ago, I'd never played modern day gaming (WW2). My whole group got into Bolt Action at that time when it was exploding as the "new" game to play, so I tried it out. Found too many holes in the game system and didn't give me the satisfaction of gaming WW2. Another friend introduce me to Chain of Command...well well well...this was a really nice set which captured the feel for squad/platoon tactics and love the unique game mechanics for the period. Needless to say during my initial adventure in BA, I really dig the Warlord Game miniatures which support their game. So to this day, I still buy their miniatures and some from other companies, but use them in my Chain of Command games. Another great video!

[@TC-Apoc]

Amazing rules is what makes Trench Crusade so exciting.

[@JohnVasquez-ni9hc]

Yep going to give this a try. I'm leaning towards OPR. Thanks for keeping it real.

[@maxallman2333]

Warzone: AFast and Furious Miniatures Game - first edition - will always be my favorite rules system

[@nolan2664]

I'm getting into Necromunda rn. It's a little crunchy, my first few games have been boring as I keep needing to check the massive rulebook for clarification. I get the impression that it'll be insane fun once I'm confident with the rules; I see why people heavily encourage you to find someone to teach you rather then attempt to get into it yourself. One thing that I know will make it all worth it is Scatter Templates. I have zero idea why these haven't been added back into 40k. They're so much fun.